DO vs MD from UQ-Oschner

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slim4thewin

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Hey, I'm a US student trying to see if the UQ-Ochsner program might be the right fit for me. I've gotten accepted into a DO program here but am not sure whether the stigma of DO is outweighed by the stigma of an IMG. Specialty wise, I love surgery, especially Ortho and oncology (there is apparently an Ortho Oncology fellowship out there) but I rushed my MCAT here trying to get my application in as soon as possible. I was overconfident and rushed my studying into a 3 week prep course, after which I took the exam and got a 29. Basically I wanted to ask you if I'll have a chance at a good residency match for surgery a few years down the road if I went through the UQ program. And I'm also wondering if staying here in the US with a DO program would be better. In terms of tuition, I would be paying basically 3 times less if I stayed here which is why I'm leaning towards doing that. My cum GPA is 3.61 and sGPA is 3.65. I would really appreciate some guidance on this

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Hey, I'm a US student trying to see if the UQ-Ochsner program might be the right fit for me. I've gotten accepted into a DO program here but am not sure whether the stigma of DO is outweighed by the stigma of an IMG. Specialty wise, I love surgery, especially Ortho and oncology (there is apparently an Ortho Oncology fellowship out there) but I rushed my MCAT here trying to get my application in as soon as possible. I was overconfident and rushed my studying into a 3 week prep course, after which I took the exam and got a 29. Basically I wanted to ask you if I'll have a chance at a good residency match for surgery a few years down the road if I went through the UQ program. And I'm also wondering if staying here in the US with a DO program would be better. In terms of tuition, I would be paying basically 3 times less if I stayed here which is why I'm leaning towards doing that. My cum GPA is 3.61 and sGPA is 3.65. I would really appreciate some guidance on this
Unless you absolutely know you have a passion for ortho, I wouldn't necessarily worry about specialties until you're actually in med school. You'll likely change your mind. If you have a passion for ortho and nothing else, then for ortho you'll need to start killing it from day one. Ortho is super competitive to get into, especially as a US IMG. And (I suspect) even as a DO. Check to see if UQ Ochsner has placed any of its own in an ortho residency, and also check if Ochsner has an ortho residency and see if they've taken any people from UQ Ochsner. Then check your DO school and perhaps other DO programs and see if they've placed any in ortho. That might be helpful for you in answering your question.

If it were me, as much as I like UQ Ochsner, I think I'd probably pick DO if I wanted to end up working in the US. By the way, haven't they combined a lot of MD and DO residencies?
 
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Unless you absolutely know you have a passion for ortho, I wouldn't necessarily worry about specialties until you're actually in med school. You'll likely change your mind. If you have a passion for ortho and nothing else, then for ortho you'll need to start killing it from day one. Ortho is super competitive to get into, especially as a US IMG. And (I suspect) even as a DO. Check to see if UQ Ochsner has placed any of its own in an ortho residency, and also check if Ochsner has an ortho residency and see if they've taken any people from UQ Ochsner. Then check your DO school and perhaps other DO programs and see if they've placed any in ortho. That might be helpful for you in answering your question.

If it were me, as much as I like UQ Ochsner, I think I'd probably pick DO if I wanted to end up working in the US. By the way, haven't they combined a lot of MD and DO residencies?

Yeah, for the class of 2020 DO and MD residencies will be combined. I have yet to know what this will mean but I will still prepare to take both the step I and COMLEX. I have shadowed several different surgeons and Ortho has been my favorite by far. And I know without a doubt that surgery is what I want to do. Hopefully if I can work hard enough I can get a 250+ on my STEP 1 and be in consideration for allopathic residencies as well as DO residencies. It seems like one person from the UQ-Ochsner program has matched into Ortho thus far
 
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Honestly it's a total crap shoot. Oschner has matched well(90%+ with a good mix of specialties), but the jury is still out on if it will retain that performance going forward. Also it is obscenely expensive. I would take DO in that situation just for the price(and peace of mind).
 
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Honestly it's a total crap shoot. Oschner has matched well(90%+ with a good mix of specialties), but the jury is still out on if it will retain that performance going forward. Also it is obscenely expensive. I would take DO in that situation just for the price(and peace of mind).

Exactly, I'd be paying about 30k a year in tuition for this DO program which is considered one of the top 3 osteopathic programs anyway. With all costs included, Id probably accrue about 170k in debt, about half as less as I would going to UQ
 
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Exactly, I'd be paying about 30k a year in tuition for this DO program which is considered one of the top 3 osteopathic programs anyway. With all costs included, Id probably accrue about 170k in debt, about half as less as I would going to UQ
Go with this DO program and don't look back!
 
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It's hard to compare UQ-O with the DO in the US. UQ-O gives you a degree that is recognized worldwide, while DO is only recognized in the US as something. People might not agree, but UQ-O is science, and DO is not as scientific as UQ's program. The stigma of IMG is based on narrow minded regional job-protection and will disappear after you complete residency, but the stigma of DO will never go away. So far most of the doctors I prefer to see when getting sick have been IMGs. UQ is a world class highly ranked university, but which DO program enjoys any worldwide recognition? Therefore, it's not fair to compare them.

However, as for matching into the US, i.e., job concerns, it is hard to say which one has better chances. The latest statistics showed UQ-O is better, but the sample space was too small. Tuition wise, UQ-O is way more expensive than any DO school - you have to be rich or bold to be in UQ-O. Also do not forget a fact that although it is not yet too hard to get into UQ-O, some of their students are extremely good in academics and MCAT scores, easily beating top US medical school students. If one's background is not good enough and attend UQ-O, his prospect of matching to the US might not be too good because the match is not 100%.
 
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Exactly, I'd be paying about 30k a year in tuition for this DO program which is considered one of the top 3 osteopathic programs anyway. With all costs included, Id probably accrue about 170k in debt, about half as less as I would going to UQ
The huge cost difference is not worth it for UQ-O. Its a good program no doubt at the moment, but 30K per YEAR is a HUGE savings.
 
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It's hard to compare UQ-O with the DO in the US. UQ-O gives you a degree that is recognized worldwide, while DO is only recognized in the US as something. People might not agree, but UQ-O is science, and DO is not as scientific as UQ's program. The stigma of IMG is based on narrow minded regional job-protection and will disappear after you complete residency, but the stigma of DO will never go away. So far most of the doctors I prefer to see when getting sick have been IMGs. UQ is a world class highly ranked university, but which DO program enjoys any worldwide recognition? Therefore, it's not fair to compare them.

However, as for matching into the US, i.e., job concerns, it is hard to say which one has better chances. The latest statistics showed UQ-O is better, but the sample space was too small. Tuition wise, UQ-O is way more expensive than any DO school - you have to be rich or bold to be in UQ-O. Also do not forget a fact that although it is not yet too hard to get into UQ-O, some of their students are extremely good in academics and MCAT scores, easily beating top US medical school students. If one's background is not good enough and attend UQ-O, his prospect of matching to the US might not be too good because the match is not 100%.

If they were easily beating top US medical students, then why aren't they US medical students?
 
If they were easily beating top US medical students, then why aren't they US medical students?
There are many reasons. Top US med schools require near perfect on almost everything besides MCAT or GPAs. For example, hospital volunteers, reference letters, superb essays, possibly fake, sick stories, interviews that are often like insincere performing arts, etc. UQ-O does not care much about others, but gives MCAT high priority. A lot of students who are truly good academically, truly smart, truly scientific minded might not be good in, or interested in, doing time-wasting volunteer work, or begging for good ref letters. The practice in US med school admissions definitely has a lot to hope for, and often sounds stupid. GPA varies too much depending on different schools. Ref letters are even more subjective. Essays could be simply faked. Interviews are like selecting actors and extremely subjective. Only MCAT seems to be fair and reasonable. The Australian schools rightly emphasize MCAT. The US top schools can get very good students, but unlikely very top ones - I mean academically top students. Australia schools can get top students who are rich, but also mediocre ones. So in UQ-O, there are both.
 
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There are many reasons. Top US med schools require near perfect on almost everything besides MCAT or GPAs. For example, hospital volunteers, reference letters, superb essays, possibly fake, sick stories, interviews that are often like insincere performing arts, etc. UQ-O does not care much about others, but gives MCAT high priority. A lot of students who are truly good academically, truly smart, truly scientific minded might not be good in, or interested in, doing time-wasting volunteer work, or begging for good ref letters. The practice in US med school admissions definitely has a lot to hope for, and often sounds stupid. GPA varies too much depending on different schools. Ref letters are even more subjective. Essays could be simply faked. Interviews are like selecting actors and extremely subjective. Only MCAT seems to be fair and reasonable. The Australian schools rightly emphasize MCAT. The US top schools can get very good students, but unlikely very top ones - I mean academically top students. Australia schools can get top students who are rich, but also mediocre ones. So in UQ-O, there are both.
Great generalizations lol.

If the top US schools wanted to, they could all fill their classes with 4.0s and 38+ MCATs , no problem. But they realize that they want more than just grades. They can sacrafice a 4.0 for a 3.8 if that person has strength in other areas of their profile too.

Worried about getting reference letters? writing good essays? interviewing? ....well, wait till you apply for residency, its 100x worse. Dont get a good ref letter? Don't get a strong SLOE? Well have fun in rural idaho.
 
Great generalizations lol.

If the top US schools wanted to, they could all fill their classes with 4.0s and 38+ MCATs , no problem. But they realize that they want more than just grades. They can sacrafice a 4.0 for a 3.8 if that person has strength in other areas of their profile too.

Worried about getting reference letters? writing good essays? interviewing? ....well, wait till you apply for residency, its 100x worse. Dont get a good ref letter? Don't get a strong SLOE? Well have fun in rural idaho.
You are perfectly correct - when extending this to the residency and health care. If a doctor who is good in treating illness but only works in rural areas, I'd rather travel to there to treat my illness. If a doctor in my city who talks well and is friendly and makes me feel good in his office but unable to treat my illness, I end up making more and more co-payments and continue to be sick, like being cheated all the time. Which is better?

So not only the med school admissions have serious problems, the residency-match system also has problems, and the health care delivery system also has serious problems. So truly good students won't survive well here, so they have to go to other places, like Australia.
 
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Great generalizations lol.

If the top US schools wanted to, they could all fill their classes with 4.0s and 38+ MCATs , no problem. But they realize that they want more than just grades. They can sacrafice a 4.0 for a 3.8 if that person has strength in other areas of their profile too.

Worried about getting reference letters? writing good essays? interviewing? ....well, wait till you apply for residency, its 100x worse. Dont get a good ref letter? Don't get a strong SLOE? Well have fun in rural idaho.
By the way, UQ has emphasis on academic performance, good students who perform well academically will get good ref letter from the UQ when students apply for residency in US.

Many undergraduate schools in the US treat students like hording ducks with hundreds of students in big lecture rooms. Professors do not know each student. It is very hard for them to write honest ref letters for the students, nor are they interested in doing it - they are more interested in research, not in teaching. So not every good student is so luck to get good ref letters.

For med school admissions, stressing "strength" in non-academic aspects at the expense of academic performance is simply wrong.
 
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You are perfectly correct - when extending this to the residency and health care. If a doctor who is good in treating illness but only works in rural areas, I'd rather travel to there to treat my illness. If a doctor in my city who talks well and is friendly and makes me feel good in his office but unable to treat my illness, I end up making more and more co-payments and continue to be sick, like being cheated all the time. Which is better?

So not only the med school admissions have serious problems, the residency-match system also has problems, and the health care delivery system also has serious problems. So truly good students won't survive well here, so they have to go to other places, like Australia.
Right, but you are talking in extremes. For every person who is just academically brilliant, and able to "treat illness" - you can find just as many with equal academic prowess and other life skills.

Most of medicine is customer service, i guess you will realize that once you get to clinicals. Not everyone is doing things you need to be a genius with no social skills for.

Good to know there are no strong US students surviving in the US system, and that the strong ones are only going to UQ-O. (Y)
 
By the way, UQ has emphasis on academic performance, good students who perform well academically will get good ref letter from the UQ when students apply for residency in US.

Many undergraduate schools in the US treat students like hording ducks with hundreds of students in big lecture rooms. Professors do not know each student. It is very hard for them to write honest ref letters for the students, nor are they interested in doing it - they are more interested in research, not in teaching. So not every good student is so luck to get good ref letters.

For med school admissions, stressing "strength" in non-academic aspects at the expense of academic performance is simply wrong.
You do realize that the important letters of recommendation for residency are from doctors you have worked with, mostly during your 3rd and 4th year. They don't care how you did in classes at UQ at all, they are evaluating you based on how you do on rotations.
 
Right, but you are talking in extremes. For every person who is just academically brilliant, and able to "treat illness" - you can find just as many with equal academic prowess and other life skills.

Most of medicine is customer service, i guess you will realize that once you get to clinicals. Not everyone is doing things you need to be a genius with no social skills for.

Good to know there are no strong US students surviving in the US system, and that the strong ones are only going to UQ-O. (Y)
As someone else who is also at UQ-O this mindset bobiest has is not universal. I personally think UQ focusing only on academics for admission can be a bad thing. I have seem multiple people who are not the best in social aspects and interactions with patients could be awkward and not beneficial for the patient feeling comfortable. I have also talked to people who are not truly sure if this is what they want to do for career, so if they had people do more volunteering and shadowing that would help decrease the amount who are unsure what they want to do. Just because you are smart and do well on a test doesn't mean you will be a good doctor, or that being a doctor is going to be good for you.
 
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As someone else who is also at UQ-O this mindset bobiest has is not universal. I personally think UQ focusing only on academics for admission can be a bad thing. I have seem multiple people who are not the best in social aspects and interactions with patients could be awkward and not beneficial for the patient feeling comfortable. I have also talked to people who are not truly sure if this is what they want to do for career, so if they had people do more volunteering and shadowing that would help decrease the amount who are unsure what they want to do. Just because you are smart and do well on a test doesn't mean you will be a good doctor, or that being a doctor is going to be good for you.
Oh for sure, don't worry I'm quite aware that the majority of medical students at most schools aren't as thick as bobiest.. no exception for UQ. His/her logic on the matter is very perplexing and spells of self-rationalization.

I particularly like the bolded comment of yours, it is quite true. "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should". Is how i like to think of it. Just because you have the grades, or the overall profile to pursue something, doesn't mean you automatically should unless it truly aligns with your values. These values vary per person, and can equally lead them to pursue similar career paths etc.
 
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It's hard to compare UQ-O with the DO in the US. UQ-O gives you a degree that is recognized worldwide, while DO is only recognized in the US as something. People might not agree, but UQ-O is science, and DO is not as scientific as UQ's program. The stigma of IMG is based on narrow minded regional job-protection and will disappear after you complete residency, but the stigma of DO will never go away. So far most of the doctors I prefer to see when getting sick have been IMGs. UQ is a world class highly ranked university, but which DO program enjoys any worldwide recognition? Therefore, it's not fair to compare them.

However, as for matching into the US, i.e., job concerns, it is hard to say which one has better chances. The latest statistics showed UQ-O is better, but the sample space was too small. Tuition wise, UQ-O is way more expensive than any DO school - you have to be rich or bold to be in UQ-O. Also do not forget a fact that although it is not yet too hard to get into UQ-O, some of their students are extremely good in academics and MCAT scores, easily beating top US medical school students. If one's background is not good enough and attend UQ-O, his prospect of matching to the US might not be too good because the match is not 100%.
DOs have full practice rights in over 60 countries, for the record. And a far better match rate than UQ-O, as 98-99% of each class matches, whereas UQ-O had around 90%. As to "scientific," you have no idea what you're talking about- we learn the exact same basic sciences as our MD counterparts. We also learn some extra bone cracking and PT-style techniques, some of which work well, some of which are nonsensical, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we still learn the same basic sciences, most of us take the USMLE, and most of us don't use OMM after graduation (98% of DOs don't utilize any osteopathic treatments in their daily practice).
 
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It's hard to compare UQ-O with the DO in the US. UQ-O gives you a degree that is recognized worldwide, while DO is only recognized in the US as something. People might not agree, but UQ-O is science, and DO is not as scientific as UQ's program. The stigma of IMG is based on narrow minded regional job-protection and will disappear after you complete residency, but the stigma of DO will never go away. So far most of the doctors I prefer to see when getting sick have been IMGs. UQ is a world class highly ranked university, but which DO program enjoys any worldwide recognition? Therefore, it's not fair to compare them.

However, as for matching into the US, i.e., job concerns, it is hard to say which one has better chances. The latest statistics showed UQ-O is better, but the sample space was too small. Tuition wise, UQ-O is way more expensive than any DO school - you have to be rich or bold to be in UQ-O. Also do not forget a fact that although it is not yet too hard to get into UQ-O, some of their students are extremely good in academics and MCAT scores, easily beating top US medical school students. If one's background is not good enough and attend UQ-O, his prospect of matching to the US might not be too good because the match is not 100%.

@bobiest This is completely wrong. You take the exact same science courses in DO school as in an M.D. school. You just happen to additionally learn some osteopathic medicine techniques that most DOs do not end up using in practice. DOs are also recognized in plenty of other countries. Stay away from generalizations. Are you even a UQ student?
 
If they were easily beating top US medical students, then why aren't they US medical students?

They aren't. I'm a UQ-O student and while I know plenty of very good students here who got interviews at M.D. schools back in the U.S. a majority of them are here because they didn't get into a U.S. M.D. school. That being said, I do know plenty of students here who had DO acceptances, and for their own reasons opted to come here over DO school.
 
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DOs have full practice rights in over 60 countries, for the record. And a far better match rate than UQ-O, as 98-99% of each class matches, whereas UQ-O had around 90%. As to "scientific," you have no idea what you're talking about- we learn the exact same basic sciences as our MD counterparts. We also learn some extra bone cracking and PT-style techniques, some of which work well, some of which are nonsensical, but that doesn't take away from the fact that we still learn the same basic sciences, most of us take the USMLE, and most of us don't use OMM after graduation (98% of DOs don't utilize any osteopathic treatments in their daily practice).

That 98-99 needs to be clarified a bit. That is placement, and it includes the 20% of DO students who fail to match in the allopathic match being able to SOAP into spots, some of them into DO only spots that will be available to everyone in 2020. How the placement rates will play out with the merger is all speculation at this point. My guess is it will be relatively similar between DO and UQ-O, most students will be fine and the weakest links will be without a spot. That being said go DO for price considerations alone.
 
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That 98-99 needs to be clarified a bit. That is placement, and it includes the 20% of DO students who fail to match in the allopathic match being able to SOAP into spots, some of them into DO only spots that will be available to everyone in 2020. How the placement rates will play out with the merger is all speculation at this point. My guess is it will be relatively similar between DO and UQ-O, most students will be fine and the weakest links will be without a spot. That being said go DO for price considerations alone.
That lack of matching into a categorical ACGME position was largely due to students that had specific application strategies (apply hard into ACGME in your region, knowing that there are AOA programs in your region you can scramble into if things don't pan out, for instance) that will change post-merger (we won't have to worry about going ACGME vs AOA, so we can just apply more broadly to begin with). I predict that overall match rates will be pretty static, but might drop down to 96% or so- I'd be very surprised if they got any lower than that for the more established DO schools.
 
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That 98-99 needs to be clarified a bit. That is placement, and it includes the 20% of DO students who fail to match in the allopathic match being able to SOAP into spots, some of them into DO only spots that will be available to everyone in 2020. How the placement rates will play out with the merger is all speculation at this point. My guess is it will be relatively similar between DO and UQ-O, most students will be fine and the weakest links will be without a spot. That being said go DO for price considerations alone.
To be fair though, that 20% of DO students who don't match in allopathic, is also in itself a bit confuddled. They made a concious decision to forgo the original AOA match to try for "greener pastures" in the ACMGE match for whatever reason, but got stung. Either by aiming too high, misguided in general, or just unlucky. What i'm getting at is that the 20% may not be homogeneous. You can play the argument both ways, in that if AOA was after NRMP, you might actually have a higher % as people may take higher risks to go for things above their weight class and get lucky or unlucky etc. Or the % could stay the same too, as those who were too cautious in the original scenario (i.e. match to a Anes spot in AOA originally, could match to a Anes spot in ACGME in the converse scenario which they wouldn't have risked to forgo the AOA match in the first scenario.) etc etc.

But your point is definitely valid and true, just that context is an important factor that we cant flush out alot of the times.

It's like looking at the match rates for Canadians at Ross or SGU. Sure they are decent(at least in recent years, time will tell when 2016 data is released!) rates, but alot of self-selection and "tempering of expectations" happens. You could have a 85% match rate, but if its all to low quality, middle of nowhere IMG mills, is that really the same as a 80% match rate, but to overall much much better programs?
 
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That lack of matching into a categorical ACGME position was largely due to students that had specific application strategies (apply hard into ACGME in your region, knowing that there are AOA programs in your region you can scramble into if things don't pan out, for instance) that will change post-merger (we won't have to worry about going ACGME vs AOA, so we can just apply more broadly to begin with). I predict that overall match rates will be pretty static, but might drop down to 96% or so- I'd be very surprised if they got any lower than that for the more established DO schools.

I dont disagree but UQ-O had a placement of 93% in 2016, I think that goes up a bit with more spots being available to them. That would put outcomes as being pretty similar.
 
To be fair though, that 20% of DO students who don't match in allopathic, is also in itself a bit confuddled. They made a concious decision to forgo the original AOA match to try for "greener pastures" in the ACMGE match for whatever reason, but got stung. Either by aiming too high, misguided in general, or just unlucky. What i'm getting at is that the 20% may not be homogeneous. You can play the argument both ways, in that if AOA was after NRMP, you might actually have a higher % as people may take higher risks to go for things above their weight class and get lucky or unlucky etc. Or the % could stay the same too, as those who were too cautious in the original scenario (i.e. match to a Anes spot in AOA originally, could match to a Anes spot in ACGME in the converse scenario which they wouldn't have risked to forgo the AOA match in the first scenario.) etc etc.

But your point is definitely valid and true, just that context is an important factor that we cant flush out alot of the times.

It's like looking at the match rates for Canadians at Ross or SGU. Sure they are decent(at least in recent years, time will tell when 2016 data is released!) rates, but alot of self-selection and "tempering of expectations" happens. You could have a 85% match rate, but if its all to low quality, middle of nowhere IMG mills, is that really the same as a 80% match rate, but to overall much much better programs?
Perfect example of what I was saying- people forget that we have to do a lot more game-playing of the match system than our MD counterparts to match optimally, and that sometimes not matching ACGME is somewhat intentional, as those programs were higher tier or "reaches" that, were the match merged, we could have applied to along with our lower-tier AOA picks without having to worry about going unmatched.
 
I dont disagree but UQ-O had a placement of 93% in 2016, I think that goes up a bit with more spots being available to them. That would put outcomes as being pretty similar.
We'll see how things end up. Most PDs and academics I have spoken with predict that IMG match rates will decline as DO school expansion continues- I've yet to hear one person that thinks that IMGs will not take the brunt of the residency crunch. Match rates are probably going to decline across the board (US MDs had a lower match rate this year than previous years, while other groups saw slight gains care of low-tier programs opening or expanding), but IMGs are going to be hit hardest of all.
 
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We'll see how things end up. Most PDs and academics I have spoken with predict that IMG match rates will decline as DO school expansion continues- I've yet to hear one person that thinks that IMGs will not take the brunt of the residency crunch. Match rates are probably going to decline across the board (US MDs had a lower match rate this year than previous years, while other groups saw slight gains care of low-tier programs opening or expanding), but IMGs are going to be hit hardest of all.

I have no doubt that will happen for IMGs overall over time. However I wouldnt expect that to happen in 2020 as there will likely still be a 5000-6000 "gap" then. Also I wouldnt lump UQ-O or Sackler with the other IMG programs. The programs that take those grads arent going to all of a sudden start taking grads from new schools in different parts of the country. I mean Sackler matched 3 grads into IM at Mt Sinai and NYU in 2016. Those programs arent going to start taking BCOM grads instead.
 
I have no doubt that will happen for IMGs overall over time. However I wouldnt expect that to happen in 2020 as there will likely still be a 5000-6000 "gap" then. Also I wouldnt lump UQ-O or Sackler with the other IMG programs. The programs that take those grads arent going to all of a sudden start taking grads from new schools in different parts of the country. I mean Sackler matched 3 grads into IM at Mt Sinai and NYU in 2016. Those programs arent going to start taking BCOM grads instead.
Sackler is a very different case than UQ- they are considered an in-state school in NY state, giving them some unusual advantages over other schools. The biggest threat to IMGs, however, is the talk of splitting the match into phases that place US grads>US IMGs>IMGs. It probably won't happen by 2020, but Mark my words, someone will try to legislate it within a decade as people start going unmatched stateside.
 
Sackler is a very different case than UQ- they are considered an in-state school in NY state, giving them some unusual advantages over other schools. The biggest threat to IMGs, however, is the talk of splitting the match into phases that place US grads>US IMGs>IMGs. It probably won't happen by 2020, but Mark my words, someone will try to legislate it within a decade as people start going unmatched stateside.

Sackler is considered in state for licensing purposes only not NRMP. They match well because they have strong ties/connections/affiliations. They also match people to IM at University of Chicago http://imr.bsd.uchicago.edu/house-staff-roster-and-graduates/ . The in state thing for licensing is awesome because it takes away one headache but I dont see how it can effect matches in other states, its the connections that is doing the work. From looking at UQ-Oschner's match list it seems to do well because of it's ties with the Oschner system. I dont see that changing. Also the only proposal for a tiered match I have seen is from the NY medical society task force which proposes letting US MD, DOs and US-IMGs match first and then FMGs. If we ever get a tiered match I imagine that is what we will see. The caribbean schools are owned by companies that have serious lobbying power and I doubt they will let their cash cow be threatened.
 
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Sackler is considered in state for licensing purposes only not NRMP. They match well because they have strong ties/connections/affiliations. They also match people to IM at Univ Illinois Chicago http://chicago.medicine.uic.edu/cms/One.aspx?portalId=506244&pageId=14852559 . The in state thing for licensing is awesome because it takes away one headache but I dont see how it can effect matches in other states, its the connections that is doing the work. From looking at UQ-Oschner's match list it seems to do well because of it's ties with the Oschner system. I dont see that changing. Also the only proposal for a tiered match I have seen is from the NY medical society task force which proposes letting US MD, DOs and US-IMGs match first and then FMGs. If we ever get a tiered match I imagine that is what we will see. The caribbean schools are owned by companies that have serious lobbying power and I doubt they will let their cash cow be threatened.
Ah, but when we've got more people being graduated stateside than there are spots, those interests will likely take second place behind the political side of things- letting US grads go unmatched so a for-profit corporation operating overseas can make a fortune will look pretty bad from a public relations perspective.
 
Sackler is a very different case than UQ- they are considered an in-state school in NY state, giving them some unusual advantages over other schools. The biggest threat to IMGs, however, is the talk of splitting the match into phases that place US grads>US IMGs>IMGs. It probably won't happen by 2020, but Mark my words, someone will try to legislate it within a decade as people start going unmatched stateside.
Thats whats already somewhat done in Canada.
 
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@bobiest This is completely wrong. You take the exact same science courses in DO school as in an M.D. school. You just happen to additionally learn some osteopathic medicine techniques that most DOs do not end up using in practice. DOs are also recognized in plenty of other countries. Stay away from generalizations. Are you even a UQ student?

I did not generalize, but you may want to read many posts like this one in the UQ-O 2016 forum, that have sufficiently addressed such DO vs MD questions.

Yes, they are proud of the 100% match rate. I don't think it is unreasonable to be happy, but particularly MedEdPath overplays the meaning of the results. As I have cautioned from long before the first class even matched, it is a joyous occasion... that doesn't really tell us anything. The N is too small and half matched to Ochsner. Granted I know that 3 of them actually looked to Ochsner as a first choice (and truth be told I may well be matching at Ochsner myself, because of other considerations I am taking into account), but the point stands that no real data can be drawn from a single sampling of only 9 individuals. I've further been trying to urge caution in interpretation because we as humans tend to focus on the edges of a bell curve too much. If a couple from my class don't match, that also doesn't tell us much. Quite frankly there are a couple in my class whom I would not be at all surprised if they didn't match and it would have absolutely nothing to do with the program.

And, as I've always said, we will always achieve a 100% match rate if people are brutally honest with their self assessment of how competitive they are and are willing to apply to and go to any program instead of focusing on very desirable programs/locations. In other words, people who failed the Step 1 the first time and only apply to ophthal programs are going to be unhappy individuals. If those same people apply to family medicine in Podunk, Alabama they will match (though their happiness will be indeterminate without actually speaking to them). So one can see how matching is actually a surrogate marker of what people really want to know - how will I fare in the match, assuming I do well and apply to the field and location of my choice? It is a good surrogate marker, don't get me wrong, but still within limitations. That is why a few unmatched students don't really tell you much and a 100% match of a small batch of students doesn't tell you much either. What will give you information is a large sample size which allows for a wide variety of matches. You'll want to see something like a minimum 80-85% match rate overall (obviously here, the higher the better, but 95% is realistically where I would predict the program would be in order to call it "very good"), with students matching all over the country, in a wide variety of specialties (including a small percentage of the tougher ones), and at a wide variety of programs (including the tougher ones). If, after 100+ students go through we find a higher unmatched rate, with an obviously skewed distribution of matches, that will give rise to some reasonable concern. But looking at 9 (or even after my class 39ish) data points across two match seasons and trying to claim it can actually inform any sort of data driven rational decision is, well, a symptom of why stats is so important to understand ;-)

As for the DO degree distinction... that is a whole different topic, but suffice it to say in most cases it is almost identical. The manipulations aspect of osteopathy is the last remaining vestige of the rank quackery upon which the field was founded. In most of the world - Australia included - osteopaths are still rank quacks, right up there with homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, acupuncturists, etc. In the US the field became decidedly more science based which is why they have been welcomed into the ranks of legitimate medical professionals and can participate in ACGME (not just AOA) residencies (and most of them do). I am sure that there is variation in how much time is spent in each school on OM, but it is, for the most part, pretty minimal (and actually some of it has an evidence base along the lines of physiotherapists). If chiropractors actually made the same move - towards a scientific basis for practice - they could have had an analogous relationship to physiotherapists (many of whom receive doctorate level education as DPTs). But, they like their quackery too much.

And of course, the general disdain for DO's is almost entirely cultural rather than rational and scientific (same as the disdain for IMGs). And for DO's it is very regional as well - the East Coast has many more DO's and people are pretty used to it and there is less discrimination based on that, the West Coast not so much. Which is why I say that the question is not really answerable since the basis for the discrimination is not scientific or rational but purely cultural. So it all depends on where that culture is present and strong, which can (and does) change and is hard to quantify.

As for the whole Aboriginal/social determinants of health... yeah, I think GreenMachine is pretty well spot on. I wholeheartedly agree that such knowledge is the only way to truly excel at being a physician - you need to have that at the forefront of your mind as your practice in order to consistently apply it. But it is practically unnecessary from a functional sense. You can still function as a good doctor (but not a great one, for a qualitative description to illustrate the point) without considering these things. That is simply because a purely bioscientific approach is sufficient enough in a system with such demand that one doesn't need to hone that edge to such a fine point to function well within the system. That does not mean it is the best way to function, merely good enough given the practical realities of the system and delivery of healthcare. I also agree that UQ teaches these points at an extremely basic level and often rather poorly, making it difficult for most people to engage with the ideas and really take them home. I found the Life Course project to be incredibly onerous, yet I frequently discuss and write about topics that are exactly relevant to the principles they attempted to teach with that assignment. But of course, considering that everyone has different background with different proclivities it is necessarily impossible to design a course that will perfectly appeal to everyone. In areas like this, I would argue that it is even more difficult and I would agree that UQ is probably at or below par on that one (though "par" is hard to define, hence my hedge).
 
Two things to consider:
When we talk about match rates, it's important to take into account the # of students going in vs. the # matched at the end. At DO schools, that # is like 100 going in, 98 matched. At UQ, that # is like 100 going in, 60 matched, considering a big # of students not taking the USMLE or not participating in the match.
Second, UQ-O is like $90,000/year.
Not hard a decision if you think about it.

Yeah, so this is completely wrong. The 2016 match had 3 or 4 students who didn't match. 2 went back to Australia and were accepted into a program in Brisbane. and the rest matched. The class size was not 100 students, it was ~60 when it started in 2012. It was the same size for all 4 years barring maybe a couple from attrition, similar to any program. As far as not participating in USMLE, are you referring to Step 1 or Step 2 CS/CK? I haven't heard anything regarding students not taking Step 2.
 
Step 1 - which is the most important Step.
I was referring to the current third years who put off Step 1. Regardless of class size, 37% is a big number.
That 37% is in regards to third years that haven't taken it yet. They recommend taking it before 3rd year starts, and third year just started for them a couple months ago. That doesn't mean they won't take it, apply to residency, and match in the year they are supposed to. All that means is that they didn't take it at the recommended time between 2nd and third year. I do agree that it is a pretty large percentage of people who didn't take it at the best time, but it doesn't mean they are going to delay their residency.
 
Step 1 - which is the most important Step.
I was referring to the current third years who put off Step 1. Regardless of class size, 37% is a big number.
Sure it's dumb that they didn't take it before their 3rd year. However, your statement before it is completely wrong. For example, I have no idea where you are pulling this 100 going in 60 matched statistic. It is absolutely not even remotely the truth. I think people agree that the UQ curriculum could use help, but I also think that students have done very well matching each year. If you don't want to pay the money to come, fine, if you don't want to go to UQ, fine, don't come, if you want to go DO, fine, don't come. There are valid reasons to make an argument about why you should or shouldn't come, however, stating that a 'big number' not participating in the match is absolutely false, and for whatever reason, you doubling down with the Step 1 commentary - which is irrelevant to your statement about 100 entering/60 matching just bothered me. At least get your information correct, otherwise there is no point in having the discussion.

Having said all that, I would say that UQ is garbage at prepping students for Step 1, but I can also say that I can set my own schedule for classes, studying, etc. and I am not sitting in class all day. The clinical stuff is actually pretty good for Y2. Tons of patient time, performing exams, taking history, writing up cases. Clinical skills are important, and lack of them can screw you over just as easy as clinical knowledge. At least with clinical knowledge you can supplement on your own time, skills require actual hands on practice.
 
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Also, UQ-O is not 90k/year unless you are including things like living expenses as part of tuition. It is 62k I think right now - which is still very expensive, but your quoted number is 150% of the current tuition.
 
If you take step 1 before 4th year there is still time to do a research project and 2 away rotations 4th year (you just won't have an easy breezy 4th year like our US MD counterparts)




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If you take step 1 before 4th year there is still time to do a research project and 2 away rotations 4th year (you just won't have an easy breezy 4th year like our US MD counterparts)




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Lol, its really only the last month or two that are breezy for N.A 4th years. Everything pre-carms and pre-nrmp is stressful, right up until match day etc.
 
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