Do you believe organic chemistry is a good predictor of the ability to do well i

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Is organic chemistry is a good predictor of the ability to do well in med school

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 39.4%
  • No

    Votes: 134 60.6%

  • Total voters
    221
Using Ochem as a standard for medical students isnt about content, its more than that, and i think most of you guys are missing it. Its somewhat about can you memorize a ton of useless ****, but what ochem makes you do is problem solve. Those who excel in Ochem, generally, are pretty decent at problem solving. Problem solving skills are integral in med school and medicine totes obvi. Thats really what they are trying to gauge from you. they dont care about do you know the content, because the content in ochem has relatively little to do with med school content.

I agree, I think many people who get by without a problem in Bio and gen chem, then hit O Chem/ Physics and suddenly have to actually THINK to solve problems and so they struggle. At least that is what I witnessed with a lot of people who started out as premeds until they hit end of sophomore/ junior year. I think the problem solving aspect is exactly what makes it difficult for many people, not just memorizing a bunch of reagents..

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Using Ochem as a standard for medical students isnt about content, its more than that, and i think most of you guys are missing it. Its somewhat about can you memorize a ton of useless ****, but what ochem makes you do is problem solve. Those who excel in Ochem, generally, are pretty decent at problem solving. Problem solving skills are integral in med school and medicine totes obvi. Thats really what they are trying to gauge from you. they dont care about do you know the content, because the content in ochem has relatively little to do with med school content.

Meh, not really. Med school so far has been pretty much route memorization with little application, nothing like orgo. It's more like genetics or biochem.

Ochem is completely useless too, they should really remove it as a requirement imo, or atleast only require 1 semester

Some o chem classes test using multiple choice???? I can't even imagine organic chemistry without synthesis problems... They were on every test in I and II besides the very first one. That just sounds terribly inadequate. I always thought O chem always involved drawing everything out, since that was what it was like at my school. When I tutored it we would always fill a large whiteboard over and over again with drawings.

Well theres the MCAT.. it's multiple choice
 
Meh, not really. Med school so far has been pretty much route memorization with little application, nothing like orgo. It's more like genetics or biochem.

Ochem is completely useless too, they should really remove it as a requirement imo, or atleast only require 1 semester



Well theres the MCAT.. it's multiple choice

Yes, but the MCAT is not meant to teach you, and the MCAT's O Chem is generally pretty basic compared to the actual class. The MCAT has a very unique style, i don't think it's relevant when talking about O chem classes at college.
 
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Meh, not really. Med school so far has been pretty much route memorization with little application, nothing like orgo. It's more like genetics or biochem.

Ochem is completely useless too, they should really remove it as a requirement imo, or atleast only require 1 semester



Well theres the MCAT.. it's multiple choice


theres more to 3&4 year than rote memorization.
 
Yes, but the MCAT is not meant to teach you, and the MCAT's O Chem is generally pretty basic compared to the actual class. The MCAT has a very unique style, i don't think it's relevant when talking about O chem classes at college.

It's the 2nd most relevant test you will ever take in your life, so I disagree.
 
Agree with others who say ochem was more problem solving, understanding, and conceptual learning that memorizing. At least the first year of preclinicals for me was much more about remembering large volumes of information. Even the more conceptual subjects still had lots more memorizing than ochem.
 
It's the 2nd most relevant test you will ever take in your life, so I disagree.

Relevant to a pre-med's life is different from relevant to what we are discussing. I am talking about O-Chem classes in college. I am not talking about Medical school or pre-meds, just how O-Chem in college is taught. I still fail to see how the MCAT is relevant to O-Chem classes in college.. I doubt there are classes that test students the same way that the MCAT does. Saying "well the MCAT tests you this way" has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about which, again, is O-Chem classes in college. So I disagree.

EDIT: Sorry, that came off douchey. I was just trying to get my point across but I realized afterwords that I sound like an ass.
 
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By itsef? Absolutely not.

With all other other coursework and doing well? Yes.

Do you believe organic chemistry is a good predictor of a student's ability to do well in medical school?

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Correct poll question: Is organic chemistry a good predictor of the ability to do well in med school?
 
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It's probably also worth noting something that gonnif has said in the past: 20 years or so ago the emphasis on OCHEM grades was much greater and see as more of a predictor for success in medical school. That viewpoint has seemed to have shifted over those past 20 years and it brings to the overall point that med schools are more willing to look at 3.5/31 applicants as having a chance to succeed in med school than they did 10 or 15 years ago which is another point he has made.
 
I think that if you do well in Ochem, it doesnt necessarily mean you will do well in med school
If you don't do well in ochem, then you are definitely going to have problems in med school
 
Relevant to a pre-med's life is different from relevant to what we are discussing. I am talking about O-Chem classes in college. I am not talking about Medical school or pre-meds, just how O-Chem in college is taught. I still fail to see how the MCAT is relevant to O-Chem classes in college.. I doubt there are classes that test students the same way that the MCAT does. Saying "well the MCAT tests you this way" has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about which, again, is O-Chem classes in college. So I disagree.

EDIT: Sorry, that came off douchey. I was just trying to get my point across but I realized afterwords that I sound like an ass.

So a standardized ochem test for college students has nothing to do with ochem classes taught in college?
 
I think that if you do well in Ochem, it doesnt necessarily mean you will do well in med school
If you don't do well in ochem, then you are definitely going to have problems in med school

That simply isn't true. Plenty of people have trouble in ochem and do fine in med school.
 
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So a standardized ochem test for college students has nothing to do with ochem classes taught in college?

ochem classes in college are designed with the MCAT in mind? I imagine they would stay the same even if the MCAT didn't exist.. How does the MCAT effect how these classes are taught?
 
I never found organic to be that bad, or difficult. If someone was merely trying to memorize the mechanisms rather than learn them, then yes, it would probably suck.

Why? Because memorizing the mechanisms does not lend itself to synthesis which is the real suck of ochem. Learn them (by drawing, problems, etc) and synthesis is just putting the puzzle together.

The biggest thing I tell anyone who wants to learn orgo:

1) know who dances with who
2) know why they dance together or break up
3) know what can help facilitate a reunion
4) do problems assigned (all of them)
5) buy the dang molecule kits and play with them (seriously, backside attack is easy to see; gauche, anti, etc - easy to see; if you play with them, on tests you don't have to think, it's like autopilot)
 
ochem classes in college are designed with the MCAT in mind? I imagine they would stay the same even if the MCAT didn't exist.. How does the MCAT effect how these classes are taught?

Yes, all the time.. why wouldn't they?
 
Yes, all the time.. why wouldn't they?
That's not 100% true.

My ochem class was designed around the book which was based on creating carbon polymers which had little to do with anything biology related. That class, taught by various professors, was the #1 reason the BIOCHEM department created a class called "Organic Chemistry in Biology" to support the MCAT prep for the students.

Sure I learned SN1, 2, E1/2, etc but in the context of non-biology.
 
This. I got an A in organic and I think it's completely different from classes like A&P which emphasize different skill sets. It is possible that orgo helps you perform better in Biochem, but probably not super significantly.
I practically flunked orgo II (C-) and I did very well in biochemistry. *shrug*
 
There are orgo classes that give you multiple choice questions where if you can pick the thing out of a crowd you get an A. There are also classes where they put down a reactant and a product and have you write an entire synthesis with electron movements so no, I don't think that organic chemistry is particularly more standardized than any other premed course between institutions.
^^ This. My orgo exams didn't really have multiple choice questions. We had to draw things from scratch, find missing reactants in synthesis problems, etc.
 
You're confusing usernames. And that's pretty much what you said, as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree with you then. The post asked if I thought ochem professors had the MCAT in mind when designing their class, not if they specifically designed their class around the mcat.

For example, each of my ochem tests included a graded chem passage designed after the MCAT. MCAT topics were also often verbally emphasized in class.

Even if you have a professor who completely teaches to a textbook, you should still have the MCAT in mind since it will be the most important thing you do in college. It is always relevant.
 
I disagree with you then. The post asked if I thought ochem professors had the MCAT in mind when designing their class, not if they specifically designed their class around the mcat.

For example, each of my ochem tests included a graded chem passage designed after the MCAT. MCAT topics were also often verbally emphasized in class.

Even if you have a professor who completely teaches to a textbook, you should still have the MCAT in mind since it will be the most important thing you do in college. It is always relevant.
I took the MCAT two and a half years after finishing my Organic Chemistry sequence, and I very little that I studied in my review sessions or about how tests were designed had any bearing on my actual exam (which had 1-2 orgo passages at most). If you truly understood and can remember the concepts taught in the course, you'll be fine.
 
I took the MCAT two and a half years after finishing my Organic Chemistry sequence, and I very little that I studied in my review sessions or about how tests were designed had any bearing on my actual exam (which had 1-2 orgo passages at most). If you truly understood and can remember the concepts taught in the course, you'll be fine.

Who cares? We are discussing how orgo classes are taught, not how you did on the MCAT
 
Who cares? We are discussing how orgo classes are taught, not how you did on the MCAT
And you're saying the MCAT is the most important thing and that orgo is often taught to it. Not only is that straight up incorrect, but it doesn't matter anyway. You'll do fine on the MCAT orgo passages if you actually understand the material and are good at taking tests, and you won't if that doesn't apply to you. It doesn't matter what type of questions were asked in your specific course.
 
I disagree with you then. The post asked if I thought ochem professors had the MCAT in mind when designing their class, not if they specifically designed their class around the mcat.

For example, each of my ochem tests included a graded chem passage designed after the MCAT. MCAT topics were also often verbally emphasized in class.

Even if you have a professor who completely teaches to a textbook, you should still have the MCAT in mind since it will be the most important thing you do in college. It is always relevant.

Your experience seems very unique. I have never heard even once here of exams mimicking MCAT questions.
Don't generalize.
 
And you're saying the MCAT is the most important thing and that orgo is often taught to it. Not only is that straight up incorrect, but it doesn't matter anyway. You'll do fine on the MCAT orgo passages if you actually understand the material and are good at taking tests, and you won't if that doesn't apply to you. It doesn't matter what type of questions were asked in your specific course.

That is not what I said actually. I also did not ask your opinion on how to prepare for the MCAT (which I disagree with btw), only that due to it's importance it should relevant to a student throughout his college career.

Your experience seems very unique. I have never heard even once here of exams mimicking MCAT questions.
Don't generalize.

The question was is if the MCAT is ever relevant to how ochem is taught in college classes. I am merely answering that question including my own personal experience.
 
I voted no because O Chem grade distributions vary widely from one class section to the next. At my school there were 4 sections for O chem I & 3 sections for O chem II this year. I chose what was reputed to be the hardest section for each semester, the first time because it was the only option to fit with my schedule, the second time because I ain't afraid of nothing. Granted that arguably shows poor decision-making on my part, but obviously not everyone can choose the easy section. The "hard" prof. made half of his exams ungodly difficult, while making the other normalish or even easy (compared to the other profs' exams).

In my second semester of O chem, there was a single A (that one guy that just proves it's doable & that I didn't try hard enough), no A-, 5 B+'s, 4 B's. I don't remember lesser grades than that as I didn't consider anyone with less than a B to be competition, but I recall the distribution was bimodal, with the larger peak being a tight group around C-. The mean score for the class was 71% (after curving). More than 1/3 of the class got failing grades. Meanwhile, in the easy class, there were a handful of A's & A-'s, few D's & F's, & a mean score of ~78%. So the easy class had a rather normal distribution.

I admit I had first pickin's at which section I wanted, & I chose wrongly (& I'd do it again too!!), but the majority of students got to register after the easy class had filled. They didn't have the luxury. Most of them weren't premeds, of course, but the entire grade spectrum was affected. I have no doubt that I would've gotten an A in the easy class, as would most of the students that scored B+'s or B's in my section.

I'm not suggesting Phys, Bio, or G Chem are necessarily more standardized. There could be significant variation in those too, it all depends on how difficult the professor wants to make the exams. Although, at my school, all bio classes are always curved to a 75% mean score as a department rule. Bio prof's will get reprimanded for making their tests too easy, but I know this isn't the case everywhere.

The MCAT is the great equalizer.
 
I'm not a statistician, but if good students tend to do well in their classes, and poor students tend to do poorly. Then to really know organic's individual predictability, we could find people who did well in all their classes except organic and who got into medical school and didn't change any study habits and either did well in medical school or didn't. Or, someone who did poorly in their classes other than organic, still got into medical school, changed none of their habits and then either did well in medical school or didn't. Then control for when they took each course in undergrad, the relative difficulty of their institution's organic and other courses, the relative difficulty of their teacher within their undergrad, the structure of the medical school courses, and personal issues the student had in undergrad and medical school.

Or we could say that organic takes forward thinking, memorization, and understanding of processes and mechanisms. Medical school requires similar things. If you bomb orgo, that doesn't mean you won't pass medical school. And if you ace it, it doesn't mean you will.
 
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