Does it matter what undergrad you go to?

[tylerdred]

I am in sort of a dilemma. I just got done with my freshman year at University of Illinois at Chicago (third tier) with a perfect GPA. I was admitted as a transfer student to Northwestern (top 15) for sophmore year, and they gave me credit for all my classes. Aside from the obvious difference in tuition, what are the benefits of either school? Because I am ultimately planning on going to med school, I was wondering what med schools would look upon more favorably. Something also worth noting is that UIC doesn't factor in A-, B+, or B- into GPAs. However, Northwestern does. For example, an A- is a 3.7 and a B+ is a 3.3. What should I do?? Any insight would be great.

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[SunnyS81]

You'll get a large range of opinions, but here is my $.02......

If you want to go to a top medical school (top 10.....maybe even top 15), transfer. Nothing is going to LOCK an acceptance for you, but it improves your chances, which is all you can do in this Admissions game. This improvement will be marginal, so you need to weigh (which only you can do) if you value that improved chance more than the difference in tuition. Now, people will knock on me and say, "Plenty of people get into top ten schools from lesser schools", which I guess I'm an example of, but remember that just about everyone applies to the top medical schools. I know I didn't think I had a chance at a place like Harvard, but I applied because, heck, its only $30. The reality is that there are more people applying from average public schools than private or big name schools, so a medical school can't limit themselves to only the top schools for admissions. On the other hand, if you just want to get in A medical school (state medical schools and so forth), don't bother transferring, although I'm willing to bet that the lower ranked medical schools get happy when they have people from great schools like northwestern in their class.

Good luck, and by the way, I too considered transferring to Northwestern, but I decided not to.

 

[RLMD]

Even if your undergrad does not factor in +'s and -'s into your gpa, AMCAS will factor them in when you apply to medical school so it doesnt matter what grading system they use.

 

[premedi-kid]

I don't think a prestigious undergrad really makes a difference since the MCAT is the true determining factor of whether you know your stuff or not. However, going to a more well-known university might offer you more opportunities such as research positions, better classes, better professors, etc... that might boost your resume. Hope this helps.

 

[jennie 21]

In my experience, other things being equal going to a prestigious undergrad helps. i.e. kid #1 from Yale with a 4.0 will get chosen over kid #2 with a 4.0 from an average public school. However, getting a 4.0 from Yale is a lot harder than at your average state school, and a prestigious undergrad is only an advantage if you do well there. If you transfer to Northwestern and get a 3.3 there, wheras you would have gotten a 4.0 if you'd stayed at University of Illinois-Chicago (not that I'm saying that you won't do well at Northwestern, this is just hypothetical) , then I'm not sure you'd be at an advantage and you might arguably be at a disadvantage. So a prestigious undergrad helps, but only if you do well there. So you need to consider whether you think you can go to Northwestern and still do as well, or nearly as well, as you're doing now. That's a question you have to answer, that nobody else can answer for you. I do think you will find the competition rougher and the classes more rigorous at Northwestern; Princeton kicked my a** and I'm sure I would have done better at a state school, cause the competition isn't as tough. However, I'm glad I went to Princeton and I feel that the experience and education were worth it. And I'm still going to med school (NYU), despite my 3.3 science GPA and a C+ in Orgo. That probably wouldn't have happened if I'd earned those grades somewhere other than Princeton. Sorry this is getting long and kind of off track, I hope some of this is helpful to you. In sum, I'd advise you to transfer to Northwestern; it will be a terrific experience and education. And, provided you do well there, it will provide an advantage when applying to med school.

 

[southcom]

SunnyS81, do you really consider Ga Tech an easy school just b/c its public?, when I went to my interview they seemed quite impressed with me being from tech, when did ya graduate? I'm an ME I see your an IE. I may just be an idot, but I don't consider tech to be easy at all, in fact I don't know of a harder school in the state and theres not many that can match it in the SE, just my opinion

 

[pbehzad]

Originally posted by southcom
SunnyS81, do you really consider Ga Tech an easy school just b/c its public?, when I went to my interview they seemed quite impressed with me being from tech, when did ya graduate? I'm an ME I see your an IE. I may just be an idot, but I don't consider tech to be easy at all, in fact I don't know of a harder school in the state and theres not many that can match it in the SE, just my opinion

Emory buddy (I'm a little biased ). Honestly Tech is a hardcore school, and doesn't get enough respect nationally. I know all my fellow pre-meds at Emory have respect for all the engineer/science majors at tech. You guys go through some hell (or so we hear). I have heard that tech is respected among the likes of mit and caltech, which I'm sure is true.
To the OP, as someone else mentioned, goin to NU will prolly be alot tougher than UIC, but if you keep your work ethic then you should be fine. A higher GPA at UIC is better than a lower one at NU, but i would say a 3.8 at NU is more impressive than 4.0 UIC, just cause of the name (that is my opinion, and I'm not trying to down any school). I think going to a top school such as NU definitely helps, and it looks very impressive. People do look at you differently and with more respect.
Hope that helps and good luck!

 

[doepug]

YES.

Your undergrad institution matters. Anyone who says otherwise is either lying or delusional.

That being said, going to a well-known college doesn't carry a guarantee of getting into medical school, and everyone has their favorite (often mythical) story about someone from Podunk U going to Harvard.

Go to Northwestern!

 

[drkingdingaling]

i know what yall are saying about tech schools
even though mine isn't that prestigious (Louisiana Tech University) the math and science here is damn near impossible. you definitely wont get an easy A here.

 

[idq1i]

Most med schools have profiles of undergrad schools - ones that have produced a good crop of medical students, and ones that yielded mediocre ones.

Look at your premed committee's list of where their students have gone. Med schools that have a high # of accepted students from your college obviously have a good opinion of your school

 

[doctalaughs]

it matters. Look at the harvard undergrad admissions statistics. about 95% of people are admitted to medical school. You can get in with a 2.7 GPA, no problem.

 

[tylerdred]

I emailed Northwestern Med to find out if they gave preference to Northwestern undergrads. It turns out they dont. If undergrad matters so much, how come they dont seem to care. I copied the contents of the email below.


Thank you for your interest in Northwestern. If you feel that Northwestern would be the best school to complete your undergraduate studies, then you should go ahead with your plans to transfer. Northwestern undergraduate students are not given special consideration as applicants to the School of Medicine. Each year, we receive a good number of applications from both Northwestern and U.I.C. students.

 

[SunnyS81]

In response to the two people's post of using Tech as an example of a difficult public school (southcom):

My old roommate (bio 2002, MSTP WashU) posted this on SDN a month ago or so: I think that going to a southern public school is a slight disadvantage. I remember when interviewing at Yale, my interviewers questioned whether I was truly qualified for med school - since I went to a public southern engineering school (and I wasn't an engineer). At another interview, they asked me if I went to a public high school - because they thought all public schools in the south are terrible -- they asked me how I overcame the challenges of being in a public school. I almost burst out laughing There's a lot of randomness involved in med school admissions - but I still think that if you do well at any school, you'll end up getting in to med school - it might be harder to break into the old school ivy leagues (Harvard, Yale, etc.), though.

As an Industrial Engineer, people respected me because I'm an engineer. In the southeast the Tech name got a little recognition, but people were more in awe of the engineering degree. Outside of the southeast, my interviewers had never heard of Ga Tech. I know in the world of engineering we are well known, but I guess the name still hasn't gotten to the general public (unless you are in the southeast and see Tech's sports teams on TV). I'm pretty sure if you walk up to a random person, they will be a lot more impressed by MIT and CalTech's graduates just because of the name recognition. It may have just been my day, but even when I interviewed at Emory, a disproportionate number of people were from Harvard, Penn, Duke and Stanford. I think one was from Emory and one from UGA.

Tech is a hard school, so I'm pretty sure I could have done equally well at just about any other undergraduate school. My apartment (n=3), had an MCAT avg of 37.33 and avg GPA of 3.89. Despite this, only one of us got A single ivy league interview. We got interviews at other great schools, so basically, I think the undergraduate name held us back in the process.

Just my $.02.

 

[edfig99]

undergrad school matters to some extent - most schools look at undergrad in addition to gpa and mcat as an initial screen to decide whether or not to interview....and only a few would use that to base acceptance on. Most adcoms also know which undergrads do lots of grade inflation (i.e. the 4.0 from an ivy league school may not actually be THAT impressive). and yeah, in some cases with two equal candidates, some schools will pick the "better undergrad" over the "not as good undergrad", however, others take the person who had a better interview or who they feel have something to contribute to the class/school and are just all around better people. As another poster mentioned, it is pretty random. I rejected plenty of people from "better undergrads" for people who interviewed better and I thought would fit better at my school when i served on the adcom.

Don't transfer to another college just because you think it will get you into med school...that's a pretty crappy reason considering the $$$ differential...transfer if you think there is some experience at NW that you can't get at UIC that you will regret the rest of your life not experiencing it. Medical education debt is something to take VERY strongly into consideration, and you have to start thinking about it at the undergrad level...all that stuff adds up, quick.

Personally, based on what the OP posted, I would recommend NOT transferring.

L8r,

 

[SM-UCLA tech]

Originally posted by RLMD
Even if your undergrad does not factor in +'s and -'s into your gpa, AMCAS will factor them in when you apply to medical school so it doesnt matter what grading system they use.

not true at all......if your undergrad school doesn't use the +/- system, then a grade of a + or - will not even appear on a transcript. Therefore AMCAS will not factor in a +/- because there will be no record if your "A" was a 90% or a 97%.


I went to an "unprestigious" undergrad school because I played baseball, and I feel that where you go to school does help a little. But remember, if you can get a 3.8 at UIC, and only a 3.5 at Northwestern, then you are much better off at UIC. Having gone to 3 different universities for undergrad and post-bac, 2 of them being in the top 40 in the country, I would say that there were no significant differences in the classes I took, or the level of difficulty. So I would say that you should go wherever you feel comfortable and can do well.

 

[dara678]

I would advise the OP to transfer to Northwestern.

Northwestern's premed curricula are nationally known for being challenging. Most of my fellow classmates were scared out of their wits about taking Bio at NU, so they decided to go the "easy" route and take Bio during the summer at Harvard instead. I'm not trying to scare the OP, but I'm just saying that thre might be some worth in going to a school with more rigorous classes, a fact that is well known.

That being aside, I would also advise the OP to go to Northwestern based on the great research opportunities here. A lot of the profs are involved in cutting edge research. They might be a little arrogant (like all profs are) but if you get the right one you may have the chance to be published as an undergrad (as my friend was). One of the profs here -- Dan Linzer -- discovered p53.

Many NU grads get into amazing medical schools; I know people going to UCLA, WashU, and Emory. I don't know how the UIC premed track is, but I know for a fact that NU's science classes are rigorous and well-known, so you might want to be a little fish in a big pond rather than a big fish in a little pond. If you can get a 4.0 at UIC, though, I'm fairly certain you won't have any problem with the classes here.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

I would also advise the OP to transfer to Northwestern. I think where you go to undergrad does matter, but it will never be the sole deciding factor of your admission and/or rejection. I don't think that an admission committee at a top tier medical school would consider a 3.7 science gpa from MIT the same as a 3.7 science GPA from Southwest Missouri State. I think they know that a 3.7 would be harder to earn at MIT due to grade deflation, increased competition because MIT only accepts the top students from high school, harder professors, etc. However, I think that any motivated student from a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tier school could easily get accepted ahead of a student from a top undergrad school if they applied themselves and took advantage of all the opportunities available to them. For instance, if student A from Southwest Missouri State earned a 3.8 science gpa, held leadership positions in campus organizations, did research with professors, and earned a high MCAT score (30+)...I think they would easily get accepted to a top medical school over a lazy student from an Ivy League school or another top program who earned a 2.X GPA, low MCAT score, and didn't participate in anything as an undergraduate. Riding on the prestige/name recognition of your school certainly won't help. But I will grant that the prestige of the undergrad school may give certain applicants an advantage.

Berkeley '05

 

[BMBiology]

From the University of Miami School of Medicine's FAQs:

Q: I went to an Ivy League School. Does that increase my chances of being accepted?

A: It is far more important how you did in your studies than where you went to school. Attending a well-known, big-name school does not confer any significant advantage.

http://www.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/0,1770,2600-1;14190-2;17563-3,00.html

 

[MEDicated]

I don't think it particularly matters where you go to for undergrad, it's just a matter of pride. I did my undergrad at a pretty prestigious school, my grades were lackluster b/c of my immaturity and the grading scale. i have spent two years as a post-bac student at UF....it's much easier and my GPA is perfect.....the med schools are much more receptive to me now and they could care less where i went to school for undergrad. if you can keep up the 4.0 at UIC i would stay there, but a 4.0 from a school like NU is obviously impressive, but is it realistic? GPA is more important than the undergraduate institution.

 

[28129]

Private med schools are more inclined to give some additional benefit of consideration to students who attended competitive private schools for their undergrad.

Public med schools tend not to care so much.

My school, Cornell, sends an unusually large number of people to Albert Einstein and Tufts, for example.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

"Private med schools are more inclined to give some additional benefit of consideration to students who attended competitive private schools for their undergrad."

What about students who attended competitive public schools? I know that there are a lot fewer of these, but I think my school would definitely be included in this category. Also, I don't think that the University of Virgina, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, or the University of California-San Diego would be an easy 4 years. I think the best publics are just as competitive as the top tier private schools.

Berkeley '05

 

[LJoo83]

guys...OP? What does that stand for?

 

[DW]

Originally posted by LJoo83
guys...OP? What does that stand for?

original poster, i.e. the person who started the thread

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Coming from a prestigious undergrad helps, but it isn't everything. If you nail the rest of the package (high GPA, high MCAT, great essays, great ECs, great interview skills), your undergrad will be overlooked. The prestigous public schools (UVa, UMich, UNC, UCB, etc) are considered with the elite private schools, but otherwise, going to a state school IS considered something that will have to be "overlooked." At most of my interviews, I was the only one from a non-elite public school. I went to the University of South Carolina (probably considered less favorably than UIC) but still got into Hopkins.

 

[chicagohope]

Originally posted by BerkeleyPremed
Riding on the prestige/name recognition of your school certainly won't help. But I will grant that the prestige of the undergrad school may give certain applicants an advantage.

Berkeley '05

well... i am iffy about this. I went to 2 "ivy" schools...and let me tell you YALE is not killer by any means. In fact i think the Ivy grades are SO inflated that is misrepresents how much kids actually learn there. an A in bio at certain ivys really means jack.

I took a summer course at University of Chicago (a great top notch school-not an ivy) and it kicked by butt! I learned a great deal and it helped me preprare well.. but I did not come out with the best grade. Whereas at yale i did better gradewise but did a FRACTION of the work. hmmm. inflation!

Medical schools (well not really the state ones) DO look at where you went to school and they KNOW what the difficulty factor is. What they do with that info is up to them...they may trash it, but I also hear myths of some schools "adding bonus points to your cum GPA". I am not sure how true that is. A friend said that if you went to Cal Tech or MIT they boost your GPA by 0.3.

who knows.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

Yeah, I've heard about grade inflation at a few of the Ivies. However, I'm sure that the classes are difficult overall. However, I do think that certain medical schools (specifically, private medical schools) will definitely take into consideration where you did your undergraduate work. I have a link to the incoming medical school class at Johns Hopkins for 1999-2000. I'm sure you could find the new statistics from their website. I immediately noticed that the Ivy League was very well represented given that each Ivy campus has a pretty small student population except for Cornell (which has around 14,000 undergrads). If you adjusted for percentages (by taking the # of students accepted at Hopkins and dividing that by the student population at the institution that the student is from), I'd think that Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia, Yale, Duke, Johns Hopkins, and Northwestern would all do very well. I think there is a reason why Harvard got 38 kids into Johns Hopkins Medical and the University of Connecticut only got 1 person in even though it has a much larger student population. I think there's a reason that UC Berkeley got more kids into Johns Hopkins than UCLA, UC-Riverside, UC-San Diego, and UC-Irvine combined. I'm sure the disparities are a direct result of the differing quality of the applicant pool at these institutions as well as the differences in prestige, academic reputation, support for premedical students, etc. But it's just astounding that an overwhelmingly majority of the students at the nation's best medical schools attended top tier schools given the fact that the vast majority of applicants did not and there are far more students in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tiers (obviously) than there are in the 1st tier schools. I don't want to sound arrogant or anything, but given the numbers releasd by the school...I do think that the name of the undergrad definitely plays a role. I apologize beforehand if anyone misconstrues this to mean that I'm trying to bash the schools that are not in the 1st tier. I have respect for all universities and I think you can get a GREAT education ANYWHERE you go. I think your education is in your hands and you can make the most of it wherever you go. However, I do think admissions committees at the top schools do take into account the prestige/academic reputation of the undergraduate school that an applicant attended.


Berkeley '05

LINK TO THE JOHNS HOPKINS MEDICAL STATS: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/education/SOMcatalog/Students.pdf

# of students at Hopkins Medical from a few of the listed institutions:
Harvard-38
Penn-21
Yale-20
Stanford-19
MIT-13
Duke-19
Columbia-12
Berkeley-11
Boston College-4
Northwestern-3
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor-2

Disclaimer: We are missing the most crucial factor here which is how many students applied from each school. I'm just doing my best given the data releasd by Johns Hopkins. I also did not include the undergrads that Johns Hopkins Medical accepted from
its own undergrad school because it's clear that it would accept a disproportionate amount of students from its own undergraduate school.

 

[judoka]

i did a search on cornell, and there were like 31 kids there from cornell. I think harvard had around 50 or something like that, but i was just saying that cornell is pretty well represented too. Especially considering we have 7 undergrad colleges, with 3 that do not even send any kids to medical school at all. If just going by our arts and sciences school, ag school, and human ecology school, you would see that our percentages are quite favorable.

either way, going to a prestigious undergrad has got to be harder. indian kids get into jhu from maryland with like 34 mcats, but from an ivy they expect a lot more. the name helps, but not as much as the disadvantage of having increased competition hurts. its not fair, i feel, but i would rather go to an ivy and know i can succeed than go elsewhere and wonder what being ivy is all about.

if going to an ivy, going to harvard, yale and princeton helps alot, but the other ones make it harder to get in since the grading is tougher (cept brown) but the coeffcient they multiply our gpa's are probably the same. some schools give ivy's huge advantages, but others are stupid and don't (haha in my opinion).

Getting a 3.4 from cornell is alot harder than getting a 4.0 from some place like a regular state school, no question. you can try to argue it, but don't bother unless you went to cornell and a regular state school, as i have. we have kids that transfer from all over who go from 4.0's to 2.8's in a semester. I lived in the transfer center and i know the deal. i saw those kids from Uof Rochester crying in the lounge cause they got smoked in orgo, or all those kids that go from premed stars to thinking about getting a masters in public health to strengthen their much weakened applications. however, a kid with a 4.0 from a state school is in a better place so i suggest that if you don't mind people sticking their nose up at you when you leave college (like ivy alums), go to the state school and kick ass. but know that many people who go to ivy's will always question your success, just like people question blacks that get in off of AA. its just a class issue, in america going to an ivy means something. i mean, do you really want to tell everyone you got into dartmouth but you went to RPI on a full ride for the rest of your life? its a judgement call. ivy is not for everyone. first you got to pay, and then you got to work hard. its just like driving a bentley, wearing hickeyfreeman suits, living in lake forrest, all that stuff...you don't have to have it, but it is coveted and people respect it. you can say that a 3 million dollar house is a waste of money, but wouldn't you take one over a 200K house if you were paying the same money? so, a 3 million dollar house is better. but you have to pay more for the better house. now, it might not be a "value", but it is better. for some people, they just want the best they can have. others live a more value centered life. its your call. ivy league is not about value, its about the having the best.

in conclusion, state schools are better for security, ivy schools are better if you can succeed. if you have the balls, go to the ivy and if you do poorly, just transfer out after a year, applying 2nd semester if you did bad first semester (its a strong move, that's why i said you need balls, but it could save your career).

don't flame me, i believe what i am saying to be honest, and i am not making any outrageous claims.

 

[28129]

Some of the Ivies do have ridiculous grade inflation. I think Harvard or Yale now has a system where the professors give you a fake transcript grade, then in person tell you your real grade. I seriously hope they do stop that ****, because down the line it is going to hurt the reputation of their school.

That said, Harvard and Yale applicants are still of very high quality on average. They might be too cowardly to handle grades below B, but that might not be a problem if they never get those grades once they move on to other academic institutions. Hehe.

Also, my school, Cornell, has no grade inflation in the science/engineering departments, and has a reputation for being brutally competitive. The average undergraduate GPA at my school is a 2.7. That's likely pulled up somewhat from folks who are humanities and social science majors, where there is some slight grade inflation. I think everyone knows that if you can make it academically at Cornell as a premed science major, you can make it pretty much anywhere.

In the end, med school admissions are not that much different from undergraduate admissions. Schools like Stuyvesant in NYC send dozens of their grads to Ivy League schools every year. Suburban public schools in the Midwest (like the one I went to) will consider it a good year if they can send 2-3.

 

[drakkan2001]

Hey Shantanu,
I definitely agree with you!!! After finishing my 2nd year at Cornell (taking both Orgo and Physics) I can attest to the fact that Cornell is NOT at all easy. Although Cornell is the easiest ivy to gain acceptance, it's also the hardest to stay in. No wonder we had 4 students deaths in 1 month!!!

 

[MichaelSavage]

Doesn't really matter--just work hard and get good grades!

 

[jennie 21]

Yeah, like Cornell, Princeton definitely doesn't have a problem with grade inflation-- at least not in the hard sciences. My pre-med courses were all centered around a B-minus and beating the curve was TOUGH because virtually all my classmates were intelligent and highly motivated. I did see some grade inflation in the humanities courses, probably the average grade in those was about a B+. Still, I think the rumors of grade inflation in the Ivy League are vastly overrated, if Princeton's any example.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

I think applying from a top school is actually a disadvantage in the whole med school application process. The mean in orgo, bio, non-calculus physics classes at Stanford is generally a B-, with some profs opting for a C+ and other (kinder) ones going for a low B. Given that the average applicant from Stanford has a mid 30s MCAT and ~1450 SAT, it is safe to conclude that you are competing with a much, much sharper bunch than you do at a non-elite school. Yet, the grades are only marginally higher (the average science grade at a non-elite school is probably more like a straight "C"). Most students with a B+ or better science average at an elite school could comfortably push a 3.9-4.0 at a non-elite school.

The grade inflation that people write about is in humanities classes, especially upper level, small group ones, where the distribution of grades includes a majority of students getting some variant of A, and it being virtually impossible to get less than a B.

 

[weirdo700]

"I think there's a reason that UC Berkeley got more kids into Johns Hopkins than UCLA, UC-Riverside, UC-San Diego, and UC-Irvine combined."-BerkelyPremed


-Oh no.... Berkeley sent 11 people and the other UCs sent 10 (UCLA sent 5). That's so statistically insignificant I can't believe you brought it up. You want comparison say look at any school compared to Harvard....now that is a big difference. Anyways everyone knows name does help, but having a good GPA and good MCAT will always turn eyes. It will definitely get you past alot of initial screens.

 

[judoka]

Yeah, an ivy is a disadvantage for graduate admissions, but i think its better for a lifetime, if you can do what you set out to do. Man, i was doing research with this girl today, and she was totally smart and everything, but her GPA is a complete struggle cause of cornell and she's gonna go do a post bacc to apply to med school. It really sucks, since its a waste of time, money, and even then there are no promises.

Yeah I hear both princeton and stanford are tough. Goodluck guys.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

To Weirdo700: ""I think there's a reason that UC Berkeley got more kids into Johns Hopkins than UCLA, UC-Riverside, UC-San Diego, and UC-Irvine combined."-BerkelyPremed

With all due respect, what the hell are you talking about? We're comparing how many kids school A got into Johns Hopkins Medical school against the TOTAL AMOUNT that Schools B, C, D, and E were able to get into Johns Hopkins Medical. We're pitting 1 school against 4 other schools. We're assuming that the proportion of the students that are "premed" are equal between the Schools, A,B,C,D, and E. We're also assuming a 100% yield between students who were admitted and students who enrolled. This is logical considering that Johns Hopkins is practically the most selective medical school in the country. Shouldn't the TOTAL amount of admits from those 4 other schools be greater than just the amount of admits from that 1 school? In addition, we're letting the premeds among 77,290 students (the sum of the student populations at UCLA, UC Riverside, UCSD, and UC Irvine) compete against the MUCH smaller student population of 23,835 at Berkeley. Sadly enough, all FOUR of those institutions combined couldn't get more students into Johns Hopkins than just Berkeley. As for your point about "statistical significance"...we're not looking at averages here. In other words, there is no T-distribution curve and we're not computing any confidence intervals so we can't even establish a "p" value (threshold) for statistical significance (for 95% confidence...you need a p-value of <0.05). Why would you even bring that up? In this case, it's absolutely ASTOUNDING that 1 school got 11 kids into JHU Medical whereas the SUM of 4 schools only got 10 kids in. One would logically expect (and hope) that the 4 schools would get more kids in, but they didn't. Your counterexample of taking Harvard and pitting it against any other school to show "statistical significance" is completely irrelevant because you're comparing ONE school versus ONE other school. In my post, I compared the # of admits from ONE school with the SUM total of admits from FOUR other schools. Sometimes, the truth can hurt.

You can check my stats at these links:
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023370&LTID=1
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023373&LTID=1
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023708&LTID=1
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023371&LTID=1
http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1023545&LTID=1

 

[weirdo700]

I can't believe you went statistics on me. First of all you're using one school's admissions stats as a benchmark for something general and very unpredictable like all of medical school applications. By your reasoning the best school in the country would be John Hopkins...cuz that is the most represented school at Hopkins med? Doesn't that confound your whole argument about name meaning so much. Med schools select people based on who they feel best represents their school. Someone that gets into Hopkins may not get a secondary from UCLA/Drew or Meharry. My recommendation to the OP is to remember that admissions is a very holistic thing and they should not think that name alone will decide their fate. I would also recommend not to use ridiculous cliches like Berkelypremed....oh please "the truth can hurt."

 

[weirdo700]

To prove my point further that one school's admission stats don't prove anything....just look at the University of Maryland which has a large number of admits at JHU. Hmmm could this be because of that great academic reputation? The answer is no it is because JHU is located in Maryland. Oh yeah it is also not surprising that UCs are filled with more students that attended UCs. Medical schools are all different and are looking for certain qualities. The admissions game is about obtaining compatibility between a program and an applicant.

 

[BerkeleyPremed]

**ding ding ding** Round 2:

To Weirdo700: While I agree with you that the admissions game is about finding compatibility between a program and a student, your refutation of my arguments just makes no sense. I never said we were using those statistics to gauge how good an undergrad program is or whether School A is better than School B. We can use those statistics of admits to Johns Hopkins to see which schools have the STRONGEST student bodies as well as which schools prepare their students the most for medical school admission. Your counterexamples of the Univ. of Maryland getting kids in because the school is IN Maryland can't even be considered. Why? Practically ALL schools give preference to in-state residents. Even the University of Pennsyvlania, an Ivy League university, gives preference to the residents of Pennsylvania. They state this on their website. Of course there would be more UC students at the UC Medical schools. This only makes sense because they give preference to California residents. That doesn't tell us anything about how strong the student body is at Univ. of Maryland because they already get preference. In other words, it's a really bad example. I'm just saying that we can gauge the quality of the student bodies at these respective schools by seeing how many kids they get into the top medical schools. Since UC Berkeley has the highest SAT average of all the UC schools, it would only make sense that Berkeley would have the most capable student body. In addition, the research facilities here are better and there are more opportunities to do research so this would easily explain why Berkeley gets more students into JHU Medical than UCLA, UC Irvine, UCSD, etc. The same applies to Harvard and the other top schools.

 

[quideam]

My input: I'm from Rutgers, a pretty good public U but by no means an 'elite', and I know several people who just in this past year were accepted to JHU, U Penn, U Pitt, Cornell, Columbia, and NYU. Most people only get into the NJ and a random few NY or PA schools, but those with good MCATS (32+) and high GPAs (3.7+), other schools at the very least interviewed them. I don't know all the statistics, but it's good enough for me to say that while going to a prestigious undergrad may help a bit, it only helps if you DO WELL. A Harvard kid with a 3.5 and a 32 will not be favored over someone from Rutgers with a 3.8 and a 35.

Enjoy the debate!

- Quid

 

[enamine]

Originally posted by quideam
A Harvard kid with a 3.5 and a 32 will not be favored over someone from Rutgers with a 3.8 and a 35.


- Quid

The Harvard kid would totally have one-up on the Rutgers kid. People don't pay 160k for an undergrad degree for no reason; there are advantages.

 

[rjmst]

This is not a fictional story, although it isn't really med school, but a Biomedical engineering PhD program.

A close friend of mine, who can be contacted, worked his ass off as an undergrad at a 3rd teir, where I go. He applied to PhD programs at all the top USA schools and international schools. He is now on his way to Caimbridge. It can be done.

On the other hand, I know Penn Med's website, for one, specifically states:

"The choice of students is made on the basis of the opinion of the Committee on Admissions regarding the applicant's character, ability, fitness to pursue the study of medicine, and promise for the future. This is determined by many factors, including the academic standards of the college at which the applicant prepared..."

When you think about it, they are just talking in circles and not making sense.

One

 

[Blanch]

I think applying from a top school is actually a disadvantage in the whole med school application process. The mean in orgo, bio, non-calculus physics classes at Stanford is generally a B-, with some profs opting for a C+ and other (kinder) ones going for a low B. Given that the average applicant from Stanford has a mid 30s MCAT and ~1450 SAT, it is safe to conclude that you are competing with a much, much sharper bunch than you do at a non-elite school. Yet, the grades are only marginally higher (the average science grade at a non-elite school is probably more like a straight "C"). Most students with a B+ or better science average at an elite school could comfortably push a 3.9-4.0 at a non-elite school.

Hey WatchingWaiting,

I graduated from Stanford too and I have to disagree with you. I think Stanford has an embarassing grade inflation problem. Have you ever met anyone that didn't get an A or a B in freshman IHUM. And I found the science classes to be not so different. The curves never looked like normal bell curves. They were always very skewed to the right, and they always seemed to set the B- cutoff at the left edge of the hump. The mean was usually a B, not a B-, and around 25% of every class seemed to come out with at least an A-. The only exceptions to this might have been Bio Core and the non-laboratory organic chem classes. As if that wasn't enough, you could take all your pre-med classes one quarter "off track" which was notoriously easier and more chill.

I also did a year at Berkeley, and their classes were so much harder to get good grades in. My Physio class had like 400 people in it and only 10% got A's. The mean was a C. I know the Ivy League people like to make it sound like they're working so much harder, so they can try to get the most out of the big bucks they're paying. But the truth is, once you're in an elite private school, the schools do everything they can to "take care of you." It helps their alumni giving down the road.

 

[drakkan2001]

i beg to differ. I'm at Cornell and there is no "taking care of you" atmosphere here. Only cutthroat competition. I'm not sure about the other ivys though. Here's a taste of our organic chem prelims fyi. Do YOU think this is easy?

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by drakkan2001
i beg to differ. I'm at Cornell and there is no "taking care of you" atmosphere here. Only cutthroat competition. I'm not sure about the other ivys though. Here's a taste of our organic chem prelims fyi. Do YOU think this is easy?

First of all the test isnt easy, but it isnt terribly hard either. I am yet to encounter an "easy" Organic Chemistry test, and Ive been a TA for the class for almost 2 years.

Secondly, the difficulty is independent of the grade anyway. If its graded on a curve like most classes are anyway, it only matters how many questions you get right RELATIVE to the other students.

Third, Im really getting tired of these "my school is impossible threads." Very few people have the experience to compare the difficulties of different schools (such as transfer students), and even they have only sampled a few of the classes the university provides
(Im referring to several posts on this thread). Maybe saying your school is impossibly difficult makes you feel better, but it means nothing to anyone else since we have no common frame of reference for comparison. I guess thats why adcoms use the MCAT.

 

[Blanch]

i beg to differ. I'm at Cornell and there is no "taking care of you" atmosphere here. Only cutthroat competition. I'm not sure about the other ivys though. Here's a taste of our organic chem prelims fyi. Do YOU think this is easy?

Hey drakkan2001,

Looks just like the Organic Polyfunctional Compounds tests I took at Stanford, and I'm sure it would be comparable at U. of Illinois or Texas A&M or Chico State or Harvard. Many profs at my school loved to give difficult tests to challenge the brightest ones, but that didn't neccessarily mean difficult grading. Keep up the hard work, though.

 

[PluckyDuk8]

Back to the question of the OP...

As somebody who graduated from NU- I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Have you declared a major yet and if so what is it? I'm asking this to see if this is a good NU major vs. a good UIC major- this is important in terms of your GPA and your enjoyment at either school.

2. How is UIC's semester's going to translate to NU's quarters...this also is in terms of NU's distribution requirements. Are you going to have to graduate later if you transfer than if you would have stayed at UIC?

3. Which classes have you taken at UIC that you have a 4.0? Have they been any of the known challenging courses there?


4. Rhetorical question and probably one of the most important- are you happy at UIC and do you see yourself happier at NU? Do you see yourself enjoying the greater variety of classes at NU (remember you'll be on the quarter system) and (this can be argued) the harder classes?

Now some random comments...
-I really think personally having NU on my app vs. UIC helped me a lot. I got a lower MCAT score and having my GPA from NU (which wasn't stellar but good enough) helped me tremendously.
-NU has lots of opportunities for great EC's and being a part of the campus community. Does that exist at UIC?
-NU is on quarter system. That automatically makes it more crazy than UIC. We have midterms from week 2 through week 10, and often you'll have one to two of them for many weeks straight. This makes NU more challenging and good time management skills really helps.
- I had a friend who was taking orgo at UIC the same time I took at NU. In comparison to what she was learning, I was learning a lot more. There werer many topics they didn't cover. She ended up getting a much better MCAT score than me, but I not as good of a standardized test taker than she. It was interesting that with her better gpa and MCAT score than I she only got into finch last minute and I got into Rush and Loyola. That could be because of many, many things, but it kinda makes you wonder...
-I took bio and physics during the summer (note: you cannot take bio in the summer if you are a science major). This really helped my sanity during the rest of the year and I probably got better grades taking it in the summer than I would have if I took it during the year. This again depends highly on your major.

Alrighty, sorry about my book, I hope the OP is still reading this thread. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[enamine]

At Penn, the mean of the curve is normally equal to a B- and sometimes even to a C+. I've never heard of it being equal to a B. The only possible exception to that is Physics. In most science classes, no more than 10% of the class gets an A or an A-.

 

[umass rower]

I have a basis of comparison with some schools. We're part of a 5-college deal, in which any student at one of the colleges in the area (UMass, Smith, Amherst, Mount Holyoke, Hampshire) can take any class at any other. I can tell you that from talking to people who go to some of the other schools that they find that UMass classes are harder than at their own school. My intro bio, gen chem, physics, and all upper-level bio classes have been no curve. Orgo was graded around a C, and it was hard because the professor couldn't teach to save his life-- ended up having to teach myself the material for exams, didn't retain anything, and it ended up hurting me on the MCAT.

Also, as a Boston local, I know there has been a lot of news about Harvard's grading policies in the last few years. I think I remember that over 90% or something of the students there graduate with honors of some type. There was another newsworthy item that there was a professor who was giving students two sets of grades-- one that would be sent in to the school as their "official" grade, and then the one that he thought they really deserved .... and I think a lot of people were getting mad because their deserved grades didn't really resemble their official grades.

But despite this, people are still impressed with names, so even though some schools count for more than they deserve and others less, the school with the better name will usually be the better bet.

 

[chicagohope]

ditto

your stats are key
BUT your school will help push you over if you are borderline

those top tier school list where thier med students came from for a reason.

 

[ESPNdeportes]

I personally do not believe it matters that much where you go to undergrad. You can get a good education just about anywhere. To me, it matters more about YOU than your school. Lets face it, peole get into medical schools from all types of undergrad institutions. The name of the school doesn't guarentee you anything.

Bottom line is that if you have the proper work ethic, desire, personality, etc. to become a physician, you'll be fine.........just go somewhere where you'll be happy.....that's the most important thing IMO