Does SCS Physical Therapists make Athletic Trainers Irrelevant?

[kmendes]

i say that because i was close to the bachelor's program and mingled with the majors. Physical therapy isn't all "walking with old people".

Orthopedically, they're trained in responding to emergent situations as well as acute orthopedic injuries. I've done on-site evaluations with injury diagnosis and prognostic development with athletes and their families and i'm new to the workforce so I imagine others are as well.

I'm not demeaning the AT field at all since a good AT is worth their place on an organization for sure. I have heard incorrect biomechanical or injury-related information from them either directly or via eavesdropping though. Although every profession has good and bad apples I suppose.

What I meant was if I'm in the profession of athletes, a doctor of musculoskeltal disorders and diagnosis would SEEM more worth it to my organization than a bachelor or masters degree in AT which covers (unless I'm wrong on this) on-field assessments of injuries. Unless the Masters degree covers way more information, a typical DPT can do what an ATC can and then some, provided they have a sports background. Some PTs enter with backgrounds in psychology, business, sociology, etc. I'm excluding them from the conversation, just the ones with relevant backgrounds.

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[atstudent]

Orthopedically, they're trained in responding to emergent situations as well as acute orthopedic injuries. I've done on-site evaluations with injury diagnosis and prognostic development with athletes and their families and i'm new to the workforce so I imagine others are as well.

What I meant was if I'm in the profession of athletes, a doctor of musculoskeltal disorders and diagnosis would SEEM more worth it to my organization than a bachelor or masters degree in AT which covers (unless I'm wrong on this) on-field assessments of injuries. Unless the Masters degree covers way more information, a typical DPT can do what an ATC can and then some, provided they have a sports background. Some PTs enter with backgrounds in psychology, business, sociology, etc. I'm excluding them from the conversation, just the ones with relevant backgrounds.

So in other words you dont know what an AT is capable of doing or what the AT's degree is about.

And I get to watch PTs teach the wrong biomechanics all the time. One of my coaches showed me a note he got from a DPT about weight lifting restrictions. Lets just say he and I had the biggest laugh because it was ALL WRONG!!! Just because you have a higher degree does not mean you are better.

AT's specialize in athletic injuries. We are good at them! There aren't many PTs I'm inviting onto my football sideline...

PTs and ATs both have important roles in a sports medicine team. But they need to know their roles and its obvious to me you don't know your role on the team..

 

[kmendes]

So in other words you dont know what an AT is capable of doing or what the AT's degree is about.

And I get to watch PTs teach the wrong biomechanics all the time. One of my coaches showed me a note he got from a DPT about weight lifting restrictions. Lets just say he and I had the biggest laugh because it was ALL WRONG!!! Just because you have a higher degree does not mean you are better.

AT's specialize in athletic injuries. We are good at them! There aren't many PTs I'm inviting onto my football sideline...

PTs and ATs both have important roles in a sports medicine team. But they need to know their roles and its obvious to me you don't know your role on the team..

Sadly you've been working with PTs with NO sports experience. There are many that are clueless, which is unfortunate. These people will end up working at hospitals or nursing facilities.

Again, I'm not dissing ATs since I almost became one. From a diagnostic and examination point of view, PTs with sports experience (whether in their past, or a SCS) seem to be of more value because of their education. It's ok is disagree, just know I'm not meaning it as an insult.

 

[goyo1010]

Sadly you've been working with PTs with NO sports experience. There are many that are clueless, which is unfortunate. These people will end up working at hospitals or nursing facilities.

Again, I'm not dissing ATs since I almost became one. From a diagnostic and examination point of view, PTs with sports experience (whether in their past, or a SCS) seem to be of more value because of their education. It's ok is disagree, just know I'm not meaning it as an insult.

Well, that's kind of insulting to PTs that work at hospitals or nursing facilities (although, you probably didn't mean it that way). They may not know complex or more advanced versions of exercises, but that does not mean they don't have a clue about biomechanics or kinesiology. A large majority of the PT education is focused on biomechanics and kinesiology of the human body.

atstudent: If you are seeing this, then it is your ethical responsibility to bring this up with the therapist--in a polite way, so there isn't a backlash or drama or whatever. If they truly don't know what they're talking about, then I don't know how they became a PT. And SCSs are specialized in athletic injuries. That's the reason for the specialization--to be able to respond to acute athletic injuries.

However, I do agree that PT/ATCs makes the best combo. We recently had a PT/SCS/ATC/CSCS that came to speak to us about his education, path to his current job as the assistant athletic trainer to the Houston Texans, the similarities and differences between the PT and ATC degree, and how each complemented the other on and off the field, and how the PT education added depth of knowledge.

 

[toedragger]

I've been looking into SCS programs for a possible residency. Personally if I'm an NFL owner, I want PTs over ATCs because of their diagnostic and injury management skills. I almost went into ATC as a bachelors before switching to Kinesiology and I have to say that PT education about sideline treatment is far beyond ATC (standard, not post-bachelors) unless you went to a PT program that didn't go into that, which is unfortunate.

I have a background in sports, exercise science degree, and soon to be DPT. I'd like a SCS to boost my resume and would feel more valuable to a team than a ATC with a Masters. Am I missing something here? It seems like an obvious choice for me. And with orthopedic docs on staff, I would imagine they'd favor good orthopedic PTs as well.

You aren't missing something, you are missing almost everything. I have to question if you have closely read this entire thread and the information that has been clearly laid out.

Your statement of " PT education about sideline treatment is far beyond ATC" is completely ignorant and calls to question what "sports experience" you have had, because if it was worth anything, an ATC would have been there clearly demonstrating his or her skills. The fact that you don't go into detail about why you have found this to be true makes it even more dismissible. Name one "sideline skill/treatment" that a PT has over an AT. ONE.

Instead of using the verbs "feel" and "imagine" maybe you should call up NFL owners (which btw the general manger hires team medical personal, which further shows your lack of sports experience) and ask them what they would choose. I'll actually save you some time, follow this link to the Professional Football Athletic Trainers' Society and you can see that 32 out of 32 NFL teams choose Athletic Trainers.

http://www.pfats.com/Members/TeamList.aspx

Unfortunately I could not find the Professional Football Physical Therapist Society.....

 

[toedragger]

i say that because i was close to the bachelor's program and mingled with the majors. Physical therapy isn't all "walking with old people".

Orthopedically, they're trained in responding to emergent situations as well as acute orthopedic injuries. I've done on-site evaluations with injury diagnosis and prognostic development with athletes and their families and i'm new to the workforce so I imagine others are as well.

I'm not demeaning the AT field at all since a good AT is worth their place on an organization for sure. I have heard incorrect biomechanical or injury-related information from them either directly or via eavesdropping though. Although every profession has good and bad apples I suppose.

What I meant was if I'm in the profession of athletes, a doctor of musculoskeltal disorders and diagnosis would SEEM more worth it to my organization than a bachelor or masters degree in AT which covers (unless I'm wrong on this) on-field assessments of injuries. Unless the Masters degree covers way more information, a typical DPT can do what an ATC can and then some, provided they have a sports background. Some PTs enter with backgrounds in psychology, business, sociology, etc. I'm excluding them from the conversation, just the ones with relevant backgrounds.

AT which covers (unless I'm wrong on this) on-field assessments of injuries

You are wrong on this. My personal athletic training education program included both upper and lower extremity ortho eval (two 3 hour credit classes), a therapeutic exercise class (3 credit hours), and a modalities class (3 credit hours). Not to mention kines, 2 ex phys classes, taping/bracing, emergency care, special populations, EKG, general medicine, and many more classes. Do you really think for four years we learn just about emergency on-field assessments?

 

[atstudent]

I'd be interested to know if there's ever been any studies done to show one profession is better than the other? I think it'd be a hard study to be done...

 

[Fiveoboy11]

So in other words you dont know what an AT is capable of doing or what the AT's degree is about.

And I get to watch PTs teach the wrong biomechanics all the time. One of my coaches showed me a note he got from a DPT about weight lifting restrictions. Lets just say he and I had the biggest laugh because it was ALL WRONG!!! Just because you have a higher degree does not mean you are better.

AT's specialize in athletic injuries. We are good at them! There aren't many PTs I'm inviting onto my football sideline...

PTs and ATs both have important roles in a sports medicine team. But they need to know their roles and its obvious to me you don't know your role on the team..

It's not your sideline, it's the parent's and player's sideline. You are not in charge of their care, the parent is. Those aren't your ankles you're taping for the football games. It's not your gatorade you splash in their mouths. You work for the athlete and the parent, nobody works for you, especially when you're employed by the public school system as a flipping healthcare provider! I tell the patient's I work with all the time, "you're in charge, not me", perhaps you should embrace that because you can bet your ass the average parent and the average athlete would want a PT on "your sideline." And, maybe you are an expert in biomechanics, and that other PT was not. Maybe. Guess what, it's not only about biomechanics! It's not only about getting them back on the field and handing out pickle juice for cramps either. Here's an idea, consider that these athletes you work with are going to grow old, and kicking field goals and shooting free throws doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. Having a good nights rest and walking without pain means a lot though if you ask me. They need to have that explained to them by the way, some steroid demented coach won't explain that. Why don't you quit your job that I thought you have in a PT clinic where the manager knows your strengths as you say and gives you leeway? Wasn't it you who said that? Legitimize the double standard for me how you have any business in a PT clinic, but a PT doesn't belong on the field? Your anti PT nonsense is shockingly thoughtless and illogical.

 

[atstudent]

It's not your sideline, it's the parent's and player's sideline. You are not in charge of their care, the parent is. Those aren't your ankles you're taping for the football games. It's not your gatorade you splash in their mouths. You work for the athlete and the parent, nobody works for you, especially when you're employed by the public school system as a flipping healthcare provider! I tell the patient's I work with all the time, "you're in charge, not me", perhaps you should embrace that because you can bet your ass the average parent and the average athlete would want a PT on "your sideline." And, maybe you are an expert in biomechanics, and that other PT was not. Maybe. Guess what, it's not only about biomechanics! It's not only about getting them back on the field and handing out pickle juice for cramps either. Here's an idea, consider that these athletes you work with are going to grow old, and kicking field goals and shooting free throws doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. Having a good nights rest and walking without pain means a lot though if you ask me. They need to have that explained to them by the way, some steroid demented coach won't explain that. Why don't you quit your job that I thought you have in a PT clinic where the manager knows your strengths as you say and gives you leeway? Wasn't it you who said that? Legitimize the double standard for me how you have any business in a PT clinic, but a PT doesn't belong on the field? Your anti PT nonsense is shockingly thoughtless and illogical.

Your comment in bold shows me there is no point responding to anything else you just said. Because you don't have a clue.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

Your comment in bold shows me there is no point responding to anything else you just said. Because you don't have a clue.

Bro, I have over 300 credits combined between undergrad (B.S. Human Bio -- about 10 credits of athletic training classes BTW -- you know ones actually taught by a ATC), and grad school. I've been a PT for 5 years and have probably over 10,000 patient exposures as a PT. I was a competitive powerlifter for about 10 years. I played HS football, ran marathons, canoeing competitions.

I see everything from 3-4 years to 100+, ambulatory to not, high level athlete to elementary athlete, highly educated to mentally disabled, acutely ill to chronic disease processes, ortho to neuro, vertigo, post-MVA, fibromyalgia, multiple comorbidities to none, chronic to acute pain, etc etc. I work in an outpatient ortho clinic M-F, and a acute hospital on Sunday and sometimes Saturday. Probably about 100 patient encounters per week, about 30 minutes each. What do you do as an ATC where you work constantly on patient's for 50+ hours per week? How do you remotely figure you have the expertise a PT has? Do you have any response with some numbers or logic? Or just lame anecdotes and illogical fantasies.

 

[toedragger]

The PTs/PT students on this board have to understand that when you see the title of your profession and the word "irrelevant" next to it, people are going to get defensive. I really think a lot of people would get fired up on here if I started a topic of "Isn't the SCS credential worthless due to ATCs existing?"

PTs have clearly broken into the sports world, D-1 rehab coordinators are poping up, and the NFL has legislation to have 1 on staff. However, the day has yet to come where a PT is the Head of a team medical staff, that isn't an ATC also. When a PT/SCS makes it as the head first responder of a team, please post it on this site, because I really don't see it happening for quite some time.

 

[atstudent]

Bro, I have over 300 credits combined between undergrad (B.S. Human Bio -- about 10 credits of athletic training classes BTW -- you know ones actually taught by a ATC), and grad school. I've been a PT for 5 years and have probably over 10,000 patient exposures as a PT. I was a competitive powerlifter for about 10 years. I played HS football, ran marathons, canoeing competitions.

I see everything from 3-4 years to 100+, ambulatory to not, high level athlete to elementary athlete, highly educated to mentally disabled, acutely ill to chronic disease processes, ortho to neuro, vertigo, post-MVA, fibromyalgia, multiple comorbidities to none, chronic to acute pain, etc etc. I work in an outpatient ortho clinic M-F, and a acute hospital on Sunday and sometimes Saturday. Probably about 100 patient encounters per week, about 30 minutes each. What do you do as an ATC where you work constantly on patient's for 50+ hours per week? How do you remotely figure you have the expertise a PT has? Do you have any response with some numbers or logic? Or just lame anecdotes and illogical fantasies.

You forgot to make sure I knew you were a doctor.

 

[truthseeker]

Sadly you've been working with PTs with NO sports experience. There are many that are clueless, which is unfortunate. These people will end up working at hospitals or nursing facilities.

Again, I'm not dissing ATs since I almost became one. From a diagnostic and examination point of view, PTs with sports experience (whether in their past, or a SCS) seem to be of more value because of their education. It's ok is disagree, just know I'm not meaning it as an insult.

I have been through both programs and you are uninformed. The only PTs I have worked with that knew what they were doing on the sideline were also ATCs. There may be exceptions but the RULE is, that the ATC is better trained and better prepared for sideline coverage.

So, for you to say that the PT is better trained for sideline coverage than an ATC is simply ignorant.

 

[ATwantingtobePT]

Like toedragger said this whole thread is very disrespectful to the profession of Athletic Training, is a credential going to make an entire profession irrelevant? I have seen people on this site get very upset when chiropractors get a credential in "physical therapy". Would you like for them to be making a thread about that making physical therapists irrelevant? As an athletic trainer who works at a physical therapy and sports medicine clinic, I work with physical therapists Monday thru Friday. We are BOTH respectful of our different fields, even though I am fairly new only having about a year and a half of experience. When an athlete comes in they will consult with me or have me work with them, even if they have a dr prescription. If an athlete comes in with something more complicated I may ask the therapists questions and talk it over with them or refer to the dr if it is something that needs to be checked out by a dr. I also help with their patients some going over exercises, but the major thing is that we all work together and respect each others field and experience. I have a lot of respect for physical therapists they have extensive knowledge and training in their field. I am going to physical therapy school to gain more knowledge and training so I can work with a greater multitude of patients, more than just athletes. Like fiveoboy said physical therapists work with all kinds of different patients and diagnoses, but the athletic trainer specializes in athletic injuries and only works with athletes or at least physically active people. My entire education was centered around athletic injuries. I do think that a PT with an SCS would be valuable to have and should be able to work with athletics as well, but a credential will not make an enitre field worthless. Everyone in healthcare should work together for the best interest of the athlete or patient! And imo in athletics, the ATHLETIC TRAINING degree is still the best to work with athletes.

 

[truthseeker]

It's not your sideline, it's the parent's and player's sideline. You are not in charge of their care, the parent is. Those aren't your ankles you're taping for the football games. It's not your gatorade you splash in their mouths. You work for the athlete and the parent, nobody works for you, especially when you're employed by the public school system as a flipping healthcare provider! I tell the patient's I work with all the time, "you're in charge, not me", perhaps you should embrace that because you can bet your ass the average parent and the average athlete would want a PT on "your sideline." And, maybe you are an expert in biomechanics, and that other PT was not. Maybe. Guess what, it's not only about biomechanics! It's not only about getting them back on the field and handing out pickle juice for cramps either. Here's an idea, consider that these athletes you work with are going to grow old, and kicking field goals and shooting free throws doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. Having a good nights rest and walking without pain means a lot though if you ask me. They need to have that explained to them by the way, some steroid demented coach won't explain that. Why don't you quit your job that I thought you have in a PT clinic where the manager knows your strengths as you say and gives you leeway? Wasn't it you who said that? Legitimize the double standard for me how you have any business in a PT clinic, but a PT doesn't belong on the field? Your anti PT nonsense is shockingly thoughtless and illogical.

I don't see where ATstudent said anything even remotely "anti PT". Frankly, he/she is right. For what its worth, the AT is a very competent clinician in the outpatient orthopedic PT clinic, they just can't currently bill for their services. If there were a way for limits to be placed on who they can treat and could be paid for their services, I would hire an ATC over a PTA. The thing is, they can't and there isn't so its a moot point.

 

[truthseeker]

Bro, I have over 300 credits combined between undergrad (B.S. Human Bio -- about 10 credits of athletic training classes BTW -- you know ones actually taught by a ATC), and grad school. I've been a PT for 5 years and have probably over 10,000 patient exposures as a PT. I was a competitive powerlifter for about 10 years. I played HS football, ran marathons, canoeing competitions.

I see everything from 3-4 years to 100+, ambulatory to not, high level athlete to elementary athlete, highly educated to mentally disabled, acutely ill to chronic disease processes, ortho to neuro, vertigo, post-MVA, fibromyalgia, multiple comorbidities to none, chronic to acute pain, etc etc. I work in an outpatient ortho clinic M-F, and a acute hospital on Sunday and sometimes Saturday. Probably about 100 patient encounters per week, about 30 minutes each. What do you do as an ATC where you work constantly on patient's for 50+ hours per week? How do you remotely figure you have the expertise a PT has? Do you have any response with some numbers or logic? Or just lame anecdotes and illogical fantasies.

You have a serious inferiority complex. You do what every other PT does or did everyweek. You have been practicing for 5 whole years and yet you seem to know just about everything to do with athletic training after 10 credit hours of class????

There is so much wrong with your opinion that it is hard to know where to start. The athletic trainers are not claiming to work with mentally disabled 100 year-olds with CHF and an old stroke with vertigo. They are claiming to work BETTER THAN YOU on the sidelines of a high school football game. Nothing more.

If you can't cede that someone who's entire training (4-6 years) is based upon just that is not better at it than you are after 10 credit hours of courses in athletic training then you just can't be reached with logic and it would be futile to try. The ATs on this board would be wasting their time to try. Frankly, I don't know what I am doing it for.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

You have a serious inferiority complex. You do what every other PT does or did everyweek. You have been practicing for 5 whole years and yet you seem to know just about everything to do with athletic training after 10 credit hours of class????

There is so much wrong with your opinion that it is hard to know where to start. The athletic trainers are not claiming to work with mentally disabled 100 year-olds with CHF and an old stroke with vertigo. They are claiming to work BETTER THAN YOU on the sidelines of a high school football game. Nothing more.

If you can't cede that someone who's entire training (4-6 years) is based upon just that is not better at it than you are after 10 credit hours of courses in athletic training then you just can't be reached with logic and it would be futile to try. The ATs on this board would be wasting their time to try. Frankly, I don't know what I am doing it for.

Re read my posts, what you say I said isn't what I said at all.

 

[truthseeker]

Re read my posts, what you say I said isn't what I said at all.

I did and I stand by my comments.

 

[atstudent]

I'd love for a PT to show that this is actually a part of their PT school education. Five0? kmendes?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130507&content_id=46886698&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

 

[kmendes]

I'd love for a PT to show that this is actually a part of their PT school education. Five0? kmendes?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130507&content_id=46886698&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

I didn't watch the video, but for starters for being hit in the head...

I'd run through BLAND signs to make sure his vertebral artery wasn't severed by him jerking is head or the force of the ball. Then I'd look for possible open fractures of his skull. Meanwhile I'm checking his orientation x 4 and responsiveness with typical AVPU. Check vitals. And because I'm concerned about his neck, I'd do some ligamentous laxity tests quickly to make sure it's safe to move him if need be. Next I'd look at any neural involvement. When all is clear to me, I'd load em on a stretcher and get him to a CT to rule out brain injury. All that in a few minutes while the bullpen warms up.

Of course there will be variation in what's prioritized but those come to me off the top of my head

 

[truthseeker]

I didn't watch the video, but for starters for being hit in the head...

I'd run through BLAND signs to make sure his vertebral artery wasn't severed by him jerking is head or the force of the ball. Then I'd look for possible open fractures of his skull. Meanwhile I'm checking his orientation x 4 and responsiveness with typical AVPU. Check vitals. And because I'm concerned about his neck, I'd do some ligamentous laxity tests quickly to make sure it's safe to move him if need be. Next I'd look at any neural involvement. When all is clear to me, I'd load em on a stretcher and get him to a CT to rule out brain injury. All that in a few minutes while the bullpen warms up.

Of course there will be variation in what's prioritized but those come to me off the top of my head

OK, first you make sure he is breathing.

 

[Azimuthal]

OK, first you make sure he is breathing.

Yup. ABC's, then decide on rapid transport/ backup, continue assessment. But to be fair, a first responder course would teach you that.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[atstudent]

Yup. ABC's, then decide on rapid transport/ backup, continue assessment. But to be fair, a first responder course would teach you that.

Can't we all just get along?

To be fair, the comment was made upthread that a PT education was superior to an AT education for sideline injury management. The point was more than made.

 

[truthseeker]

Bottom line, it is irrelevent who the members of this board believe is a better clinician in different areas of athletic training and physical therapy. why? because unless you have an ATC credential, you are likely NOT getting a job in the professional sports setting. If they want a PT, they will hire a PT, ATC. NFL teams call undergraduate athletic training programs all the time asking for any of their past graduates who went on to PT school. This way, they meet the "one PT on staff" standard but also get someone who is useful outside the realm of rehabilitation as well. "Rehab Coordinators" of D1 universities are the exception. This is because their job title is to oversee rehab, not work immediate/acute care. Even so, most are PT, ATC.

Exactly!

 

[kmendes]

OK, first you make sure he is breathing.

OMG I'm not even going to justify that.

 

[atstudent]

I didn't watch the video, but for starters for being hit in the head...

I'd run through BLAND signs to make sure his vertebral artery wasn't severed by him jerking is head or the force of the ball. Then I'd look for possible open fractures of his skull. Meanwhile I'm checking his orientation x 4 and responsiveness with typical AVPU. Check vitals. And because I'm concerned about his neck, I'd do some ligamentous laxity tests quickly to make sure it's safe to move him if need be. Next I'd look at any neural involvement. When all is clear to me, I'd load em on a stretcher and get him to a CT to rule out brain injury. All that in a few minutes while the bullpen warms up.

Of course there will be variation in what's prioritized but those come to me off the top of my head

OMG I'm not even going to justify that.

I'm ruling out neurological symptoms LONG BEFORE I consider any kind of ligamentous testing! And oh, BTW a CT does not "rule out" a brain injury.

And first things first! Breathing, consciousness, then moving to trying to rule out c-spine before anything else..

 

[kmendes]

I'm ruling out neurological symptoms LONG BEFORE I consider any kind of ligamentous testing! And oh, BTW a CT does not "rule out" a brain injury.

And first things first! Breathing, consciousness, then moving to trying to rule out c-spine before anything else..

breathing does come first but that's high school first aid common sense. At this professional level its painstakingly obvious. I'm immediately thinking of injury possibilities, but of course I'm not going to test someone who's not breathing. sheesh

And what I meant was a CT to rule out further damage to the brain.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I'm ruling out neurological symptoms LONG BEFORE I consider any kind of ligamentous testing! And oh, BTW a CT does not "rule out" a brain injury.

And first things first! Breathing, consciousness, then moving to trying to rule out c-spine before anything else..

Someone getting beamed with a baseball at around 100mph, the first things that come to my mind is concussion, brain bleed, eye injury, struck in the throat or neck... common sense? SCI very unlikely. Seems like difficulty breathing and neuro signs/symptoms would be most important. So, first things first it's unlikely this athlete had a cervical SPINE injury so don't waste time with that until other more important and more likely things are ruled out.

 

[Sheldon]

I'm a PT working in a rural setting. As part of the "Sports Rehabilitation" team that is an out-reach service of the hospital I work out, we provide varsity athletic event coverage for two hospitals in our county as well as concussion management for four high schools in a tri-county area (which is under our scope in the state I practice in). We did have an ATC as our team lead; however, he has moved on. I've done an ortho residency; however, I still don't feel that on the field my skill-set is the same as an ATC. Also, one of my fellow DPTs is studying for his SCS, and I'm still not sure his skill set is equal to an ATC/DPT. So, on the field, I'll defer to an ATC if possible (and that's why I seek out the opposing team's trainer, if they have one).
As PTs, we are positioning ourselves to be the direct-access MSK providers of choice, and I think that's appropriate and legitimate; however, we must not discount the efficacy and training of other health-care professionals and realize what each has to offer.

 

[truthseeker]

breathing does come first but that's high school first aid common sense. At this professional level its painstakingly obvious. I'm immediately thinking of injury possibilities, but of course I'm not going to test someone who's not breathing. sheesh

And what I meant was a CT to rule out further damage to the brain.

and yet you skipped that step to try and show how smart you were by doing ligamentous laxity tests. You just never do that on the field. Not enough backup. Illustrates your ignorance (not stupidity, ignorance, there is a difference)

 

[truthseeker]

I'm a PT working in a rural setting. As part of the "Sports Rehabilitation" team that is an out-reach service of the hospital I work out, we provide varsity athletic event coverage for two hospitals in our county as well as concussion management for four high schools in a tri-county area (which is under our scope in the state I practice in). We did have an ATC as our team lead; however, he has moved on. I've done an ortho residency; however, I still don't feel that on the field my skill-set is the same as an ATC. Also, one of my fellow DPTs is studying for his SCS, and I'm still not sure his skill set is equal to an ATC/DPT. So, on the field, I'll defer to an ATC if possible (and that's why I seek out the opposing team's trainer, if they have one).
As PTs, we are positioning ourselves to be the direct-access MSK providers of choice, and I think that's appropriate and legitimate; however, we must not discount the efficacy and training of other health-care professionals and realize what each has to offer.

Nice post. Given the choice between a PT and a coach, the obvious choice is the PT. Given the choice between a PT and a PT with SCS, the obvious choice is the SCS (all other things being equal) Given the choice between and ATC and any of the above, again all other things being equal, the clear choice is the ATC.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

and yet you skipped that step to try and show how smart you were by doing ligamentous laxity tests. You just never do that on the field. Not enough backup. Illustrates your ignorance (not stupidity, ignorance, there is a difference)

Do you really think any medical professional would do laxity testing on an unconscious person without realizing they are not breathing? It's common sense. The worst thing you would see in the vast majority of cases would be transient freezing or "not knowing what to do." Not, hmm let me manipulate this flaccidly unconscious human being's neck a bit, just check the upper cervical stability a lil' bit.

 

[atstudent]

Do you really think any medical professional would do laxity testing on an unconscious person without realizing they are not breathing? It's common sense. The worst thing you would see in the vast majority of cases would be transient freezing or "not knowing what to do." Not, hmm let me manipulate this flaccidly unconscious human being's neck a bit, just check the upper cervical stability a lil' bit.

Point is you wouldn't test laxity of ligaments in the c-spine on the field at all!

 

[kmendes]

Point is you wouldn't test laxity of ligaments in the c-spine on the field at all!

YOU wouldn't. It's a quick way to evaluate for risk of cord disruption or arterial damage and if everything else was ok, this would give me some assurance that they can be ok moving off the field.

 

[atstudent]

YOU wouldn't. It's a quick way to evaluate for risk of cord disruption or arterial damage and if everything else was ok, this would give me some assurance that they can be ok moving off the field.

And I'm sure you have research supporting this being done on the field? Can't wait to see it!

 

[questionmark32]

I have never seen an ATC perform any ligament tests for the c-spine. That would be one of the worst things to do in the situation you guys are talking about


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[questionmark32]

I would like to clarify my question that is in the OP. In no way was I trying to put down the AT profession or trying to insinuate that the PT profession is superior. I was seriously wondering how would a PT/SCS affect the AT profession.

I also wrote in a previous post what's the point of SCS if all you need is PT/ATC? These were questions that I wanted those in the know to answer. I wanted to hear from ATCs who may have dealt with this personally.

I would never try to put down the Athletic Training profession. The title of this thread was to get people talking (clearly it worked) and not let it slide down to the list of threads.

It just didn't make any sense to me that a PT just needed the SCS to be equal to a ATC. Through all of this, I pretty much got the answer.


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[truthseeker]

YOU wouldn't. It's a quick way to evaluate for risk of cord disruption or arterial damage and if everything else was ok, this would give me some assurance that they can be ok moving off the field.

And exactly how would you determine that without moving the spine? Which by the way is the standard of care for all suspected cervical injuries. With ANY cervical or head injury when the athlete experiences neurological symptoms that could contribute to a compromise to the integrity of the cord, the spine is to remain immobilized until imaging determines that it is OK to move the spine.

I pray that you are not on the field when my child has a suspected cervical injury.

 

[truthseeker]

I would like to clarify my question that is in the OP. In no way was I trying to put down the AT profession or trying to insinuate that the PT profession is superior. I was seriously wondering how would a PT/SCS affect the AT profession.

I also wrote in a previous post what's the point of SCS if all you need is PT/ATC? These were questions that I wanted those in the know to answer. I wanted to hear from ATCs who may have dealt with this personally.

I would never try to put down the Athletic Training profession. The title of this thread was to get people talking (clearly it worked) and not let it slide down to the list of threads.

It just didn't make any sense to me that a PT just needed the SCS to be equal to a ATC. Through all of this, I pretty much got the answer.


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In response to your original post, I considered obtaining my SCS but found that it did not add anything at all to my prior training as a PT/ATC. It would only put extra letters after my name. So I didn't do it. Its not a bad thing, its nearly impossible to get your ATC now once you have already gone through PT school so its better than just the PT degree. its probably on par with a garden variety family practice doc who doesn't deal with trauma in the ER and certainly better than having a coach on the field doing the deciding.

But all in all, I don't think it threatens the ATC. The ATC obviously threatens the PT with or without the SCS based upon the vitriol and defensiveness that this thread has stimulated.

 

[Azimuthal]

But all in all, I don't think it threatens the ATC. The ATC obviously threatens the PT with or without the SCS based upon the vitriol and defensiveness that this thread has stimulated.

As an observer, I read it both ways.

 

[toedragger]

In response to your original post, I considered obtaining my SCS but found that it did not add anything at all to my prior training as a PT/ATC. It would only put extra letters after my name. So I didn't do it. Its not a bad thing, its nearly impossible to get your ATC now once you have already gone through PT school so its better than just the PT degree. its probably on par with a garden variety family practice doc who doesn't deal with trauma in the ER and certainly better than having a coach on the field doing the deciding.

But all in all, I don't think it threatens the ATC. The ATC obviously threatens the PT with or without the SCS based upon the vitriol and defensiveness that this thread has stimulated.

Or you could go to a 2 year entry level master's program to get the ATC, which would be an additional year on the SCS. Doesn't sound too impossible.

 

[Azimuthal]

Or you could go to a 2 year entry level master's program to get the ATC, which would be an additional year on the SCS. Doesn't sound too impossible.

Hmmm...sounded as though he's already an ATC.

 

[truthseeker]

Or you could go to a 2 year entry level master's program to get the ATC, which would be an additional year on the SCS. Doesn't sound too impossible.

No, not impossible, but pretty difficult considering there will be job offers on the table. Obviously the most efficient way is AT in undergrad and then the DPT.

 

[questionmark32]

Unfortunately, AT programs are not easy and could drop your GPA. But clearly it can be done and the benefits are great!


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[truthseeker]

Unfortunately, AT programs are not easy and could drop your GPA. But clearly it can be done and the benefits are great!


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I agree, not easy. In fact, my NATA certification test was much harder than the PT test plus, the NATA requires 75 credit hours of CE over 3 years where my state PT board requires only 40 over 2 years.

 

[RTRDPT]

Hey guys, I am a DPT student and happen to found this article published in the IJSPT journal regarding PT sideline coverage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273887/

The author holds the PT, SCS, and ATC credential so I think he has a lot of credibility in his perspective on the topic.

He states in the article that he feels that PT, SCS are the "most medical" person present at an event or competition. However he doesn't mention in the presence of an AT or not.

Anywho, I thought this was an interesting article to share!

 

[atstudent]

He states in the article that he feels that PT, SCS are the "most medical" person present at an event or competition. However he doesn't mention in the presence of an AT or not.

Read that line again. It says "in some cases the PT may be the most medical person." I read that as to say that in some instances the PT may be the only medical person present therefore they need to be prepared.

 

[truthseeker]

Hey guys, I am a DPT student and happen to found this article published in the IJSPT journal regarding PT sideline coverage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3273887/

The author holds the PT, SCS, and ATC credential so I think he has a lot of credibility in his perspective on the topic.

He states in the article that he feels that PT, SCS are the "most medical" person present at an event or competition. However he doesn't mention in the presence of an AT or not.

Anywho, I thought this was an interesting article to share!

It is an interesting article. In addition to what ATstudent wrote, it does NOT compare the qualifications of the PT/SCS to that of an ATC, which I think is the gist of this thread.

It would be interesting to ask him in private where he actually recieved more important training, in the AT program or the SCS certification.

 

[RTRDPT]

It is an interesting article. In addition to what ATstudent wrote, it does NOT compare the qualifications of the PT/SCS to that of an ATC, which I think is the gist of this thread.

It would be interesting to ask him in private where he actually recieved more important training, in the AT program or the SCS certification.

Okay, let me shoot him an e-mail.

 

[atstudent]

Something I realized this afternoon, just thought I'd throw it out there...

In several states laws specify that Athletic Trainers and Physicians are only professions allowed to clear an athlete with a concussion....