Does the MCAT predict much/should I give up?

[lab2185]

Hi All,
I have followed SDN for years but was never actually a member and was always scared to post.
I feel like I am having a quarter life crisis and wanted to run my situation by people here. I hope people won't attack this post, as I know some people can be a bit harsh on these forums.

So I am a non-traditional applicant, and have been very set on applying to med school for the past 5 years.

I completed a B.A. Honors and have a 3.44
I wasn't thinking about med school at the time. I graduated in 2008.

I then went to an ivy-leage and got an MPH and graduated with a 3.7 or 3.8. I am not sure because they don't have our GPA on our transcript. I did well in grad school. Got an A+ on my thesis and won an award. I didn't feel extremely passionate during my practicum and wished I was working with patients. I started questioning if I really wanted to work in policy or research, and started to think about maybe applying to medical school.

I decided to work in research when I finished my MPH, and attempt to go back to school and start the med pre-reqs. I did them while working on and off for two years. I did bio, English, gen chem, organic chem. I had done physics as an undergrad so I didn't need to do that.

I have quite good ECS (I think anyhow). I was extremely involved student in undergrad/grad. Tons of hospital work in the ER and peds, shadowing doctors,student government, service trips, organizing cancer fundraisers, different jobs, traveling, HIV internship in Africa, two different research positions since graduating from my MPH.

I have spent time shadowing different doctors and I had decided that this was a good fit for me. I love working with people, learning about the body, the problem solving aspect, doing something new every day. I get extremely bored in research positions. It is not quick paced, not enough people interaction.

I spent the past year studying for the MCAT and wrote 3 times! I have never been a great standardized test taker. I struggled with the verbal part of the GRE as well, but somehow got into a good grad school. Though in undergrad/grad I do well on midterms/finals for the most part. It is very weird. I am not sure what happens on standardized tests.

Anyhow, basically I got a 22, 22 and then absolutely bombed the 3rd MCAT.I know 22 is not good either. I have no idea how this happened. I had been improving so much on my practice exams, ranging from high twenties to even a 32! The same thing really happened the second time I wrote. I was getting mid-high twenties and ended up with another 22. I don't know what to say. The verbal is the section that is really killing me. My 3rd score makes no sense and I am absolutely shocked and devastated. I have written the 3 times that are allowed in 2014, and the exam is changing in 2015, as I am sure you all know. I took the Kaplan course twice, so I tried the prep course, and used other company's books and exams.

I am 28 years old, and I feel I need to decide.

Should I give up? Go to the Caribbean? I had applied to the Caribbean with just my first two scores, and haven't heard yet. So that is still an option. I know there are a lot of mixed reviews/stigma about it. There are some European schools that don't require the MCAT that I could maybe get into.

I am very confused and disappointed. I worked so hard, and don't feel these scores reflect my abilities. I know people say the MCAT is a predictor of how you will do in med school and on board exams, but I am not sure. As I say, I did very mediocre on the GRE and did very well in my graduate program.

I know there are other options out there. But everything else seems like a let down right now. I have spent so much time working towards this and want to do it badly, but it seems completely impossible at this point.

Anyhow, I guess Im asking whether I should give up? I know nobody can really make that decision, but just curious if anyone is in a similar position, and has any advice.

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[QofQuimica]

With two 22's and a third score that is even lower, you will have a very uphill battle to get accepted to any American medical school, let alone to ever become a licensed physician. It's unfortunate that you have such a hard time with standardized exams, because you sound like a passionate and dedicated person who could be a good medical student and clinician. However, doing well in school and on the wards isn't enough to become a practicing physician; you cannot ever become licensed unless you pass all three steps of the US medical boards (and probably your specialty boards as well for most jobs nowadays). Given your track record, you are likely to be a person who will really struggle with being able to do this. As much as I hate the idea of someone not being able to follow their dream because of standardized exams, I hate the idea of you going into six figure debt and still not being able to follow your dream (with no way to pay back the loans) even more.

My advice is to do one of the following: either choose another profession that does not require such extensive standardized testing compared to medicine, or take some time off to try to learn how to be a better standardized test-taker. It seems reasonable to conclude that Kaplan's strategies are not going to cut it for you, and continuing to do what ain't working is probably not the way to go. Maybe you can go to your school's career center and get some help there. Particularly if you are a URM and/or from a disadvantaged background, there may resources in place to help you prepare for a professional career (including developing standardized test-taking skills).

For sure you should not go to the Caribbean; that route tends to work best as a last resort for students who are excellent standardized test-takers but are having a hard time overcoming other weaknesses in their applications such as a low GPA. For someone like you, there would be a very low chance of success given how important stellar board scores are for off-shore students to be able to match for residency in the US. You are the kind of student who would need strong academic support from your med school in order to give you the best possible chance of successfully getting through the licensing exam requirements. If you are able to get into an American school, they will do everything in their power to make sure that you make it through the program and pass the boards. That won't happen in the Caribbean.

 

[lab2185]

Thank you so much for your honest response. The points that you bring up are exactly what I am worried about. But then I think about how I was able to get many scores in the high twenties and a 32 on a practice exam just a few weeks before I bombed this last one and wonder if it is major test anxiety. That is an issue perhaps. I do get extremely nervous.

I am Canadian so we do not have the US boards. But I agree that there will still be some board exams and this may be something that I will struggle with. I guess I wonder whether the board exams are different as you learn the material in medical school and it is perhaps more content based? I don't know. Perhaps you can give me some insight. I have messaged some friends I know who went abroad and many of them didn't do that much better on the MCAT 24, 25, 27 and went to Europe or the Caribbean and they are now doctors. I also know someone who got into med school in Canada with a 25, which I know seems low, but it obviously is possible. So I don't know. I know that my scores are weak but at the same time I have looked at MCATs when I got good scores and you are not actually getting that many more questions right if you get a 22 versus a 27. It's a weird exam. I did a lot of analysis in the past year on what it takes to get that 30 and to me it is still a mystery I guess. I know the flash cards, I do well on the multiple choice tests that Kaplan gives you that just test content and then I obviously am just not good at applying the material to the passages or get super nervous on the actual day.

Do you have any other professions that you could recommend? The most obvious seems a nurse practitioner and I have been looking at programs. But in reality there are still board exams and it isn't what I really want to do. I know there are physician assistants as well, but they are not really a profession in Canada yet. It is starting to develop, but I don't believe they can prescribe.

Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[QofQuimica]

Yes, the board exams are different than the MCAT (and for the record, I'm speaking of the US boards, since those are the ones I've taken). Among the differences, I would agree with you that all three Steps of the USMLE are more content-based than the MCAT is. However, they are still not the kinds of exams where you can just memorize a lot of facts and expect to do well. To do well on the boards, you need both an excellent, broad knowledge fund *and* strong analytical test-taking skills of the type that are tested on the MCAT and other standardized exams. The correlation between MCAT performance and Step 1 performance is certainly not perfect, but every study I've seen on this topic has concluded that there is indeed a correlation there. But the good news is that if you could get over the Step 1 hurdle (or whatever its Canadian equivalent is), you would probably be able to pass the other two Steps, which most people find to be easier than Step 1.

The possibility of test anxiety is worth pursuing. Again, you might see if your school can help you at all in terms of finding resources to overcome that. Working with a therapist might also be something worth trying.

It's hard for me to suggest other career options without knowing exactly what attracts you to medicine. But you already have an MPH, so if you don't want to continue in research, another career that allows you to make use of those skills might be a good place to start. If you're wanting to work with patients, the NP route isn't a bad one to consider. As you pointed out, nurses and NPs do have to take licensing exams, however, so again, this may be an issue for you. And if you already know that you don't want to be an NP, then the point is moot anyway.

 

[istishu]

The problem, as mentioned above, is that the MCAT for the most part is a good indicator for the standardized board exams. No matter where you are located, I believe some form of accreditation will be needed through a standardized test.

So the problem you will likely encounter, assuming you go through interview, is the fact that they will question your MCAT score. And even if you get a 30 or 32 lets say on your 4th retake, some schools might advise you to take the MCAT another time to reaffirm your score. The math game being 3 against 1, isnt a safe bet or sound investment.

But to get away from the MCAT, you do have a wonderful resume throughout your education. I know people who have done the interview process with an MCAT of 22, and convinced the doctors they would be a sound investment. That person this year got his residency in neurology at his 2nd choice, so I wouldn't count you out by any means. I personally knew this coworker, they had some volunteer work through their church. An upward trend in grades (starting junior year). They are currently at a top 30-40 school, going on to top 20-30 for neurology residency.

So the point is your case would be decided on a holistic review. I wouldn't advise you to collect misinformation from me, but I did provide you with a real example that a lot of premeds around me were doubting and then had their jaw drop when the person announced their residency match.

However, nothing can be reviewed I believe until the MCAT score goes up. Personally I didnt use Kaplan for the old mcat studying, although I will be taking the new one, but out of the 20 or so premeds I know (about 14 successfully matriculated), only a handful used Kaplan. In my opinion the Berkley reviews are the best. I dunno what they are doing to update their reviews for the new MCAT 2015, but their books will inevitably help throughout your studying. They condense the information so nicely, and let it float on down to you, before giving you similar questions to practice with (physics being a noted equivalent with passages).

You have stellar stats, I would hate for you to shy away from it because of a test. Its one test. A lot of people take the time off from their life and study. Most of my friends just locked themselves up for 7-8 hours a day for a month, my strategy is to study little by little over a longer period of time to absorb it all in. Especially before sleep. I am very much like you. I dont do well on standardized tests, I do much much better on oral examinations and "fill in the blanks/write a paragraph", but that means I over prepare with every crevice I can cover.

Are you actually learning from your flashcards? I have flashed so many of those and gone to a test to not know anything. my advice to you is to take terms you are learning and you must manipulate the information. Write it all out. Rewrite the section in summary. Then go through and highlight whats important again. for example:

Phagocytosis

Cell engulfs a particle in a vacuole ~ Vacuole fuses with the lysosome to digest particle


Receptor-Mediated Endocytosis

Binding of ligands to receptors triggers vesicle formation

The action is "engulfs" is highlighted then the "vesicle vs. vacuole"

Easily from this the MCAT questions can build like: A new drug targets lysosomes, reducing hydrogen ion concentration by a factor of 100. Which type of problem in the extracellular compartment is likely to occur as a result of reduced bulk transport?

You have got to know your material inside out to be able to apply the knowledge. I think again your stats speak for themselves. You just need to take time off from everything you have right now, so the knowledge for the MCAT drives you to that point of "yeah I know that". Practice, practice, practice. Online sources are unlimited.

As for the verbal, I myself am working on this one, like it has been suggested around here read the Economist (similar type of reading material). Verbal again adds another layer of awkwardness to the test, because you dont really "seee" the results right away. Unless you are timing your reading time, its hard to put a finger on it. Skimming is your friend and being untrained in the "read every word" you learned in your science courses (I cant find the source now, but this came directly from another mcat forum here on SDN).

If you want it bad enough, you just need to give it that much more horsepower before you close the case and say "I am done" ! The final question you should ask yourself, and I have talked to enough of old patients to know how this scene plays out: you are sitting on a rocking chair outside your home (just pretend lol, its a mundane scene to say the least). You are looking back, will you have any regrets ? Or did you leave it all on the table ?

The healthcare field is a rewarding career overall. but I couldnt imagine having your stats and getting stuck in the mud this far into the game. Dont be afraid to do the silly thing like make a list, after a reflexive evaluation of your study techniques, and how you will work to resolve it. The "crayon" type exercises that will have you recalling the early days are effective. At this point make a brew of all things positive and look towards what you want your next step to be.

 

[lab2185]

I can't say for sure that I don't want to be a NP. I haven't looked into the profession until the past two days and have never shadowed one. I guess I have concerns about not having as much autonomy as a doctor. But I was mostly interested in family medicine, so I am not sure how different their scope of practice is. I guess I don't know exactly what the difference is between a family doctor and a PA and an NP. I realize the schooling is different (shorter, not as in depth). But day to day, how different are their interactions with patients? I really do want to work with patients. So those seem like the only other viable routes, unless I am missing a different profession I don't know about. In Canada, we also have ND which are naturopathic doctors. Still a four year program very similar to medical school, but you do not need the MCAT. I am sure they have licensing exams though.

My family has suggested to apply to a PhD, as I would probably have a good chance with my good grades from my master's, but I really don't see myself being happy doing that.

Thank you for the study suggestions. I guess there is a possibility of re-taking a fourth time. It seems horrible at this point. But I have just received my score and I might feel differently in a few months. I do think I need a break though. I studied for a very long time during the three exams, and wrote them fairly close together (January, May and August). Yes I would agree- I was not too impressed with Kaplan. It may be good for those with a hard science background, but I didn't find that they taught a lot. I had to basically relearn all of the material, or had never seen it and learn it from scratch.

I guess I am wondering if the new MCAT will be any better. I actually had the best breakdown the first time I took the exam. Even though I still got a 22, I didn't completely bomb any of the sections. So I am worried that retaking will not necessarily make a difference.

Thank you for all of these comments. I very much appreciate it.

 

[Being]

Phagocytosis

Cell engulfs a particle in a phagosome/vesicle ~ Phagosome/vesicle fuses with the lysosome to digest particle

Right?

A vacuole is an organelle that does many useful things in plant cells. Unless there's a

 

[QofQuimica]

If you're interested in family medicine, then becoming either an NP or a PA would be a reasonable route to doing this. But again, you would still need to pass multiple standardized exams.

I was thinking about your problem some more, and the thought occurred to me that if you like technology at all, becoming some kind of imaging tech might be right up your alley. At least in the US, I would advise considering becoming either an ultrasound tech or an MRI tech. Both are in high demand, make very good money working overtime if the hospital has to call them in at night to do an emergency scan, and would allow you to work with patients. You'd also be developing a very specialized skill that requires training and practice, with opportunities to do some problem-solving. Not sure if that kind of job interests you at all, but just figured I'd suggest it in case you wanted to look into it.

 

[danielterrones]

You could consider DPM if it interests you. I would recommend shadowing a DPM, PA, and NP.

 

[Goro]

Time for alternative career plans.

Hi All,
I have followed SDN for years but was never actually a member and was always scared to post.
I feel like I am having a quarter life crisis and wanted to run my situation by people here. I hope people won't attack this post, as I know some people can be a bit harsh on these forums.

So I am a non-traditional applicant, and have been very set on applying to med school for the past 5 years.

I completed a B.A. Honors and have a 3.44
I wasn't thinking about med school at the time. I graduated in 2008.

I then went to an ivy-leage and got an MPH and graduated with a 3.7 or 3.8. I am not sure because they don't have our GPA on our transcript. I did well in grad school. Got an A+ on my thesis and won an award. I didn't feel extremely passionate during my practicum and wished I was working with patients. I started questioning if I really wanted to work in policy or research, and started to think about maybe applying to medical school.

I decided to work in research when I finished my MPH, and attempt to go back to school and start the med pre-reqs. I did them while working on and off for two years. I did bio, English, gen chem, organic chem. I had done physics as an undergrad so I didn't need to do that.

I have quite good ECS (I think anyhow). I was extremely involved student in undergrad/grad. Tons of hospital work in the ER and peds, shadowing doctors,student government, service trips, organizing cancer fundraisers, different jobs, traveling, HIV internship in Africa, two different research positions since graduating from my MPH.

I have spent time shadowing different doctors and I had decided that this was a good fit for me. I love working with people, learning about the body, the problem solving aspect, doing something new every day. I get extremely bored in research positions. It is not quick paced, not enough people interaction.

I spent the past year studying for the MCAT and wrote 3 times! I have never been a great standardized test taker. I struggled with the verbal part of the GRE as well, but somehow got into a good grad school. Though in undergrad/grad I do well on midterms/finals for the most part. It is very weird. I am not sure what happens on standardized tests.

Anyhow, basically I got a 22, 22 and then absolutely bombed the 3rd MCAT.I know 22 is not good either. I have no idea how this happened. I had been improving so much on my practice exams, ranging from high twenties to even a 32! The same thing really happened the second time I wrote. I was getting mid-high twenties and ended up with another 22. I don't know what to say. The verbal is the section that is really killing me. My 3rd score makes no sense and I am absolutely shocked and devastated. I have written the 3 times that are allowed in 2014, and the exam is changing in 2015, as I am sure you all know. I took the Kaplan course twice, so I tried the prep course, and used other company's books and exams.

I am 28 years old, and I feel I need to decide.

Should I give up? Go to the Caribbean? I had applied to the Caribbean with just my first two scores, and haven't heard yet. So that is still an option. I know there are a lot of mixed reviews/stigma about it. There are some European schools that don't require the MCAT that I could maybe get into.

I am very confused and disappointed. I worked so hard, and don't feel these scores reflect my abilities. I know people say the MCAT is a predictor of how you will do in med school and on board exams, but I am not sure. As I say, I did very mediocre on the GRE and did very well in my graduate program.

I know there are other options out there. But everything else seems like a let down right now. I have spent so much time working towards this and want to do it badly, but it seems completely impossible at this point.

Anyhow, I guess Im asking whether I should give up? I know nobody can really make that decision, but just curious if anyone is in a similar position, and has any advice.

 

[istishu]

Honestly I just realized with the change in the new MCAT comes also a whole new change of perspective for students in your case, who are see-sawing on the previous exam.
I too get burdened down and collect overall negative energy/emotions about something. So I can feel what you are saying about the previous testing sessions, and yeah yours were pretty close.

The new MCAT in my opinion wont be easier, but it will be better. They didnt just want to go into the idea of "people perceive things differently". They went into the deep details of "why" people perceive things differently. For example I am refferign to the anatomical characteristics of the eye and how they drive to the overall conclusion of photoreceptors and vision.

Sometimes you need a clean slate. Yes you can take all your experience from the first exam, and use it to study wisely, cause the applciation questions for the new exam can be asked in an astronomical different set of circumstances giving them leeway with each exam to really "test" you on the knowledge (versus the probably dried out way of applying some of the elementary organic chemistry concepts).

So new test --> give that a try and maybe see where you go with it? Just a thought.

Also, yes phagocytosis

With PhD just make sure its what you want to do. A lot of people enjoy it who want a life outside, produce the minimum 2 articles per year you are required. Thats pretty much what my experience with faculty in Cancer Research was like. Then there are those really competitive people who really grind all through the weekend night hours. But it doesnt sound like that route was something that really struck you as yeessss. You dont want to be EBD (Everything But Dissertation).

The best advice anyone can give you is take all of our advice with a grain of salt. Consider it all, but don't let any single one person really determine your path. Because for every person that hasnt done it, someone has. I would put money on it that your peers judge harsher than the actual process. Some people like to make medical school admission process sound like they are in the trenches of a war zone. But in fact, you just are looking for someone to say: you could be our cup of tea. There are people out there practicing medicine who yes, did bad on MCAT, but did good on their boards. Again, MCAT just has a high correlation with good board result predictions. It doesnt magically get converted to board certification down the road.

Some of the careers suggested above are awesome choices as well. Even after doing those for a while, and u still want MD at the back of your name, then you could always apply later on in like 6 years with some career experience in the field. Just a thought. Its all about how much work you want to put towards this. thats all.

 

[medp63]

You could try for DO school. I know someone very well that got into DO with 22 MCAT.

 

[lab2185]

Thank you everyone. You have brought up some interesting points. What can I say, some things work out really easily for some people, and are a huge challenge for others. I don't think I am an amazing test-taker but I have been able to get the scores required on practice tests, so it is not as if I am completely incapable.I also very much enjoyed learning the biology for this exam, and before I got my scores I thought perhaps the board exams wouldn't be so bad, as they would be more focused on biology. I was able to get a 9 in bio on one of my attempts which isn't horrible. Despite getting a 10 on practice exams..

I know what some people are saying that perhaps it's time to give up. But I guess I refuse to think right now that because I am bad at reading comprehension or physics that it has to stop you from being a doctor. I'm still thinking about it. I think both sides have valid arguments.

I need to do some deep soul-searching I guess. I have applied to my province's medical school which is extremely challenging to get into. But they only look at your best MCAT score and as long as you have 3 7's you are eligible. I highly doubt it will work out but if you don't get an interview they give you feedback on your GPA and non-academics. I guess I will see. I will find out in December. If I truly get high scores in those areas but do not get an interview, I will know that I would have had a good chance besides the MCAT, and maybe I will think about rewriting in 2015. It seems horrible to think about at this point, and I am not sure if it is a good use of time and money, or energy. But if you want something bad enough, you will do it. The problem is that I am not convinced that I can do that much better on this new exam. It is not as if I didn't study these last number of months...

In the meantime, I will despite others concerns apply to some MD programs abroad as well as NP and PA programs if I can find some that I meet the pre-reqs for. They seem to have different pre-reqs than medicine. I did find ONE program in the U.S. that allows a PA to become a doctor after in 3 years. So that it is a possibility. I don't know much about it. Anyone have an info?

NP and PA are good careers but not so much in Canada. I guess I am unsure since they are close to being a doctor if I will live a life of regret, and that is the last thing I want.

I hear what you are saying about the board exams. That is really my biggest concern. I don't have any qualms about whether I would enjoy practicing medicine. I think it is fascinating and that I can bring a different perspective with an arts/public health background.

 

[lab2185]

I'd also like to add that I have gotten a few messages from individuals saying they got 22 or 23 or 24 and are in medical school, mostly DO schools. I wish I had known this was an option, and just applied with my first score in January. I think the repeated low marks have ruined my chances.

 

[PlasticBag]

Have you considered a PhD in clinical psychology? Public health research is quite valued in clinical psych and would possibly give you a chance to get in. While you do have to do research in your doctoral program, you also get extensive clinical experience, often in hospitals where you'd work as a team with psychiatrists, nurses, social workers... You sound like a qualified and ambitious person so choosing a degree that is considered the "highest" degree in a given field might make you happier than choosing a degree with a lower level of clinical responsibility simply due to the standardized tests problem. PhD in clinical psych is certainly highly regarded and probably the best degree if you want to do psychotherapy.
If you hate research, you can look into PsyD. Clinical social work might be an option, too...

 

[lab2185]

Hmm, I don't have a degree in psych, so clinical psych would be a lot more years. Not as much focused on psychotherapy but Ill look into it.

One last thing- for those doctors who have commented on this post. How similar are the boards to the MCAT? Is it passages? Or just knowing the information and being tested directly on that?

 

[PlasticBag]

Hmm, I don't have a degree in psych, so clinical psych would be a lot more years. Not as much focused on psychotherapy but Ill look into it.

One last thing- for those doctors who have commented on this post. How similar are the boards to the MCAT? Is it passages? Or just knowing the information and being tested directly on that?

Just so you know, you don't need a degree in psych to apply to psych programs (but you do need relevant research experience).

Good luck! Maybe the new MCAT will be in a better format for you and you will do well!

 

[danielterrones]

A 22 MCAT is average for most DPM schools. Your Masters GPA warrants a decent scholarship for some of the programs. I would highly recommend you research Podiatry.

my 2 cents*

 

[QofQuimica]

Again, I don't know about the Canadian boards, but there are not any passages on the American boards. The exams do have vignettes associated with most questions, so you typically have to read a paragraph of varying length with each question. Some questions also have associated pictures (imaging, photos, etc) or even sounds (ex. cardiac auscultation). That multimedia stuff was still experimental when I went through but is now standard on the exams. Step 3 also has a separate section where you virtually manage patients and get new options based on your prior decisions. Step 2 has a separate part that is done live with standardized patients (actors following a script).

As I said before, Step 1, which is typically taken after the second year of med school, is the most challenging for most people. Once you're past that hurdle, you would probably be able to pass the other two Steps and get licensed. That's why strong academic support from an American (or Canadian) school is so important for students who are marginal standardized test takers, while attending a Caribbean school is (IMO) an unacceptably high risk for these students given the high tuition costs, high failure/attrition rates, and low residency match rates of Caribbean schools.