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Don't Go to Medical School!

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Allopathic [ MD ]' started by MegaProjectile, 08.26.09.

  1. MegaProjectile

    MegaProjectile

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Become a lawyer instead. You can join recent grads from Yale, Harvard and NYU as they face unemployment with 200k debt.

    Snippet:
    Full story:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/26/business/26lawyers.html?_r=1&ref=us

    :cool:
    Last edited: 08.26.09
  2. CoolWhipp

    CoolWhipp

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    That sucks.
  3. BBender716

    BBender716 Med school drop out!

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    Raw deal. I wish that amount of jobless debt on no one.

    ...not even lawyers!
  4. MegaProjectile

    MegaProjectile

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    And yet all the naysayers want us to quit medicine. At least with an MD you can scramble into Family Medicine and make a decent living. Yale law graduates will kill for a job in the six figures right now.
  5. NotAsking4Much

    NotAsking4Much

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    true but then in like 5-7 years with healthcare reform, our salary is going to drop anywhere of 10%+ while lawyers go back to raking in the $$.

    to play devil's advocate...law school is only 3 yrs, no residency crap to handle w/.
  6. MegaProjectile

    MegaProjectile

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    It's all about job security for doctors. Also doctors can tailor their own private practice in a good number of specialties. Wanna work part-time for Goldman Sachs or come-in at 10am? Good luck.


    Also the lawyers raking in the $$ are the top 5%. Compensation in medicine is leveled, give or take, across the same specialty. So you're not going have one group of cardiologists making 50k while the next group is making 300k.
    Last edited: 08.26.09
  7. Pinkertinkle

    Pinkertinkle 2003 Member

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    in other news journalists love writing articles about the downfall of other professions, because misery loves company.
  8. NotAsking4Much

    NotAsking4Much

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    i seriously thought bout seriously going to Goldman for a few yrs...in 2 yrs, you'll earn more money than you would ever incur in debt for med school.
  9. MedMan25

    MedMan25

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    It's not that easy to work part-time as a doc, especially if you have your own practice. Lawyers have just as much freedom to work part-time as physicians do.

    The median salary for lawyers in the US was $102,470 in 2006 according to the bureau of labor and statistics. Of course, there are some lawyers making $60K and some making $600K. The same is true for physicians. I know a primary care doc who makes close to $500K/year while the majority barely make 6 figs.
  10. armybound

    armybound future urologist. Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't know how you can even get $200k in loans in 2 years of education.
  11. DrYoda

    DrYoda Space Cowboy

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    I'm guessing they have big $$$ in undergrad loans included in that figure.
  12. NotAsking4Much

    NotAsking4Much

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    law school generally is three years...so 70k a yr?
    it's the same as med school...
  13. n618ft

    n618ft

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    Death to lawyers. Average lawyer makes what - 40-50k and does more harm than good to society?
  14. panthera

    panthera the big cat

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    job security = priceless
  15. NotAsking4Much

    NotAsking4Much

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    I hope you're not serious...

    Though I'm curious if there was a "lawyer" version of SDN, what they say about doctors...
  16. MedMan25

    MedMan25

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    You may need a good lawyer someday, especially if you're planning on medicine...
  17. loveoforganic

    loveoforganic -Account Deactivated-

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    yeah, what's with all the lawyer hate? :x
  18. FluffyRabbit

    FluffyRabbit

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  19. BBender716

    BBender716 Med school drop out!

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    Not to be judgmental either, but just from perusing a bit, I noticed their threads are totally laden with flaming and expletives. I think this says less about pre-law and more about our SDN moderators.

    Three cheers for the SDN mods and for SDNers for having the vocabulary to avoid excessive expletives. **** yeah! err... jolly good show.
  20. Omni

    Omni

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    if everyone stops medicine and decides to go into law, then who will the doctors sue?
  21. marele86

    marele86

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    Ooh, there's a thread called "LAW VS. MED" on the front page of that bizzaro-world-SDN. That's got potential to be awesome.

    But yes, it would suck to be a law grad right about now. Honestly, I'm not seeing any better from my friends who graduated with humanities degrees - if you can't speak a second language or rewire a computer, and you have no "in" with the company, then nobody's hiring here. They've all gone on to jobs that they were qualified for before they spent $75,000 on school.

    We can speculate all we want about physician compensation in the next 10-15 years, but as long as there aren't a ton of new med schools opening, then we'll at least keep track with the population in size and demand.
  22. MegaProjectile

    MegaProjectile

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    :thumbup:

    Even if we increase the class size of every US med school we are still not going to meet the projected physician shortage in the next 20 years. There is severe physician shortage in rural parts of America and in our small towns.

    Also even if Obama enacts a single-payer system, we will still be ok. Canadian doctors make just a little less than American doctors but they get reimbursed a lot quicker so the trade off isn't that bad.

    Salary for Canadian doctors(a little old but will do):
    http://www.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/MedStudentCentre/Medicine/income.pdf
  23. KeyzerSoze

    KeyzerSoze Class of 2013!

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  24. MegaProjectile

    MegaProjectile

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    Good point.They also pay low malpractice premium. So, actually, the salary discrepancy evens out in the end.
  25. mdeast

    mdeast

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    Ehhh...lawyers do pretty well if they're smart. My sis is at a Top 20 law school (not Top 10) and already got 7/10 callbacks from firm interviews. She was also making six figures before enrolling in law school at 24...so yeah. No pity for lawyers from someone on a research salary contemplating my med school debt.
  26. DrYoda

    DrYoda Space Cowboy

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    Looks like we have at least 13 new ones coming, plus the ones that opened this year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medical_schools_in_the_United_States
    (under developing medical schools, on the bottom of the page)
  27. KeyzerSoze

    KeyzerSoze Class of 2013!

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    It may even out for Canadian doctors, but if reimbursements decrease here, educational debt is not going to magically disappear.
  28. twocentnews

    twocentnews OMS-IV

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    I'm moving to Canada.
  29. MedMan25

    MedMan25

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    That's exactly why you shouldn't go into medicine for the money. Salaries can change, politics can affect the way you can practice medicine, physician supply and demand could force you to open up shop in a place you don't want to live, etc.

    The idea that becoming a physician means getting through a few years of medical school, taking out loans that will be easily paid back in a short amount of time and spending the rest of your days working 12 hours a week while spending the rest on a golf course or a beach in Tahiti is totally false. Medicine is hard work and sacrifice. You get paid well because you worked hard. The same is true in law, business, you name it. If you work hard, it will pay off. If you enjoy law, become a lawyer. If you enjoy medicine, become a doctor. Just don't go into it thinking it's the perfect job with endless job security and fringe benefits.
  30. NotAsking4Much

    NotAsking4Much

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    Ding ding. Lawyers have job security too, just the ones at the very top. Med school weeds people out initially in the process, lawyers weed at the BAR and later career, business weeds entirely in the career. If you're good, you're (mostly) going to stay good. It's relatively that simple.

    I don't think medicine >> law or business from any financial standpoint. Maybe medicine might have better job security, but if you're successful, you can make 10x more in law or business...

    Plus, there are plenty of lawyers who make less but do society great services, civil lawyers for example...
  31. moonsovermyhamy

    moonsovermyhamy

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    Accepted
    Last edited: 03.22.10
  32. someguy22

    someguy22

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    Was googling something else this morning (Skadden is representing a doctors' group in an interesting lobbying effort), and found this. As a former lurker extraordinaire, I felt the need to bump a month old post. My apologies.

    Truth of the matter is Harvard, Yale, and Stanford kids are all fine. The big Wall Street law firms still hire 99% of their classes. But pedigree matters a lot in law. If you go a few school slots down only the top 50% of the class gets hired. A few slots down from there only 30%. 10 slots from there you need to be in the top 5-10% of your class to even get interviews. If you get hired, great, the firm will (in my opinion waste) 185k on you as a first year 25-year-old with no experience. It's not the quarter million they were making three years ago, but you can certainly pay off loans of in a hurry.

    In this economy, some law firms have pushed back start dates for many incoming kids because we use a stupid system where we hire two years in advance. You interview as a rising 2L in law school. You work for us a year later for the summer. You start work full time a year after that. Obviously, the number of young associates firms need to start now is much different than what they predicted two years ago.

    Still, these firms have more money than is good for them. The firms that have asked kids to start later have given them between 60-90 thousand plus their benefits and loan payments to take a year off. It's really a sweet gig. I would have killed for the opportunity to sit on a beach somewhere and volunteer the rest of my time for that kind of cash.

    So don't cry for the kids at big firms (like Skadden in the NYT article), they're doing fine.

    But that, of course, leaves the other 95% of law school grads. Only 20 schools can sniff those jobs now, and there are 200+ law schools. These are the people really hurting. Tuition at most schools is the same as it is at Harvard, but they don't have a prayer of even making 60k their first year out. Many quit law, especially toward the bottom tiers. I can't stress enough how little work there is for this group (read: the vast majority of lawyers). These guys can't find anything. No firms, no government, no small shops. The end up doing temporary contract work hourly if they want to stay in a big city (google tom the temp). They review documents for 12 hours a day ten people to a room for 35/hr. By all accounts, it's hell on earth.

    moral of the story: don't do it for money

    Signed,
    ~a former bigfirm lawyer back in school

    Edit: also looked at the article again, that guy must have substantial ug debt. Harvard and Yale both cap the amount of loans a person will take out per year to like 30k. Anything beyond that they grant you.
    Last edited: 03.21.10
  33. DirtyJustice

    DirtyJustice

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    YES! Except nothing is worse than the news market (with perhaps auto industry)
  34. mdeast

    mdeast

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    Eh law isn't too bad if you play the game right. My sis got a full scholarship to a Top 20 law school, and six firm offers, one of which she's taken for 160k/year starting salary. These offers all came in the past month...and she didn't even go to Harvard, Yale or Columbia. So yeah, I think it's not as grim as that article states.
  35. 280224

    280224

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    Not really. There's a reason why Canada has a doctor shortage because so many Canadian doctors are coming to the US to practice.
  36. Slack3r

    Slack3r Sicker than your average

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    It's also not as grim as saying most doctors are starving to death and closing up shop. You just have to play the game right.
  37. circulus vitios

    circulus vitios

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    Unless you have a bachelors from Harvard/Princeton/Yale/Wharton, you don't even stand a chance at getting into Goldman. :laugh:
  38. Typical Premed

    Typical Premed

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    I'm a Canadian med student and I'm only paying 6250 tuition per year. I was also accepted to a school in the US and it would have cost me like 7X more in tuition to attend.
  39. lstone13

    lstone13

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    Not true! One of my best friends from UGA has a job there straight out of school! :)

    So, if you graduate from a Canadian medical school can you practice outside of Canada? Just curious...
  40. Typical Premed

    Typical Premed

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    So, if you graduate from a Canadian medical school can you practice outside of Canada? Just curious...[/QUOTE]

    We actually used to have a few American students at our school each year although there are none in my M1 class. Most of them went back to the US to do their residency, they're not really at much of a disadvantage in the US match since all Canadian schools are LCME accredited so they wouldn't be considered IMG. However, I believe the tuition for non-Canadian students at our school is around 30,000 while it is 6250 for Canadians.
  41. dukemed22

    dukemed22

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    What division is he in though? Back or middle office is possible coming out of a state school... but landing a front office gig is pretty damn difficult if you don't come out of one of the above mentioned schools. Your friend must have had some major connections, kudos to him!
  42. dukemed22

    dukemed22

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    I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but everyone starts out in an "entry level" position. However, you could be "entry level" in investment banking, sales and trading, risk management, IT, operations, HR, etc... All of which are completely different in terms of competitiveness, although most people will still be impressed when you say that you work for Goldman Sachs.
    Last edited: 10.15.09
  43. coldweatherblue

    coldweatherblue

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    My cousin graduates from Cornell Law school this year and has a job lined up at a pretty nice firm in NYC. He has a lot of cool stories about dinners with clients, $1000 plates of food, going out with the firm ETC but at the end of the day he's basically going to work REALLY hard reviewing papers for 5+ years to make associate partner, then be fixed in the same area forever. I absolutely respect law and the talents it takes to be a good lawyer, but no way could I live that life. JMO I love medicine.. it's amazing.
  44. rama kandra

    rama kandra Actual Psychiatrist jk

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    Let me put this in some perspective for what its worth.

    The pro/con is equally weighted in medicine vs something like having a job with Goldman. Medicine is highly competitive and not everyone who wants it, gets it. Same with Goldman. Both have difficult entry-ways and holding together the first few years is tough. However, at the end, your average salary with Goldman is 700,000 with the top 1000 employees earning well over 1 million.

    If you are good, and work in commodities in that world, you can be like Andrew Hall with a salary of 100 million last year. If you are righteous and go into hedge funds, you can be like John Paulson who earned 3.5 BILLION in salary last year.

    I laugh everytime people worry about money and medicine. I realize I will never earn close to what some other folks do in a month. Humility is key. You've chosen a difficult path to a career but in my opinion you get more bang on the end, with something like finance.

    However, I don't like people in finance, or banking, or whatever its called. I like what I am setting out to do. I've got no desire to earn 100 million dollars if that isn't my bag.

    As for Lawyers, they are just like doctors but face the problem of saturation. There are just too many lawyers, and I have heard this problem repeated by many lawyers. There is a real need for doctors and that will likely never be filled. A large law firm can pretty much handle legal trouble for millions of people if they need to. A doctor can only do so much.

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