Downed MH17

[sevoflurane]

What a tragedy. This is analogous to 911 for a country as small as Holland. The ripple effect extends to the majority of that nation.

Putin is such a danger to the international community and the world. Not only did he annex Crimea, he is supplying Russian rebels with some serious military capabilities. To add insult to injury, it seems that in order to operate one of these anti-aircraft weapons, you need 2 years of training. So how involved was the Russian military in the takedown of MH17? Extremely involved.

Putin is so out of touch with reality. Their cover up is just laughable. They are trying to convince the world that the bodies on that aircraft were already dead and this is a set up? Really? Try saying that to the 200ish Dutch families that have been terribly affected.

This isn't the first time Russia has done this... and I think the rest of Europe has no choice but to wake up.

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[deleted171991]

There is nothing we can do, short of a world war.

The sanctions are worthless (as history has shown). Anyway, none of them apply to the rich and powerful. As long as they have properties all around the world (including the US), can get visas in a heartbeat (you cannot restrict them from visiting their property, can you?), and are buddies with some of the Western rich and powerful (common business interests), it's all just a circus.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I don't disagree with you on any point. I feel like Putin is a schoolyard bully, he's going to keep pushing and pushing until someone stands up to him. Like, really stands up to him, not slaps him on the wrist. Where it goes when that happens, though, is anybody's guess. Does he back down, or does he escalate?

But, specific to this incident, it's important to remember that we have also shot down a civilian airliner with 200+ people on board and said we thought it was an Iranian F-14. So then, we have to consider the possibility that A) this was also an accident, or the much more troublesome B), that we also did something that horrendous on purpose.

 

[pgg]

In 1987 an Iraqi jet fired two missiles that hit the USS Stark in the Persian Gulf, killing 37 people.

In 1988 the Vincennes, also in the Persian Gulf, shot down an Iranian airliner, killing 290 people.

I'm not posting this to absolve the Vincennes of the error, or minimize the horrific impact on the Iranian dead and their families, just to point out that nothing happens in a vacuum. Context matters, intent matters, and the events leading up to incidents matter. A year earlier a US Navy ship was attacked without provocation in that area and so ship crews were a little jumpy about unidentified aircraft near them.

I view Putin giving advanced weaponry to people who aren't trained to use it, don't have the support elements to use it properly, and don't have the oversight and command for anybody to be really responsible for its use, to be in a different category of irresponsibility and recklessness. There's also the fact that I already view that side as the aggressor in a larger, opportunistic, illegal land grab on the part of Russia.

Sometimes an accident is just an accident, but an accident in the context of a crime isn't just an accident.


I sort of disagree that sanctions are worthless. Lot of really rich Russians with fingers in the government who support Putin, and economic sanctions cost them $billions. Think how uptight rich Americans get when we even talk about raising the top marginal tax rates or capital gains tax rate ... they have huge influence on our government. It stands to reason that these corrupt rich Russians are losing some money and that Putin's support may be affected.


As for what we (USA) should do, I favor nothing beyond what we were already doing (economic sanctions). For one thing, it's not really our problem. For another ... long ago a wise man said one should never interrupt an enemy while he's making a mistake.

 

[nimbus]

This event reminded me of KAL007. Wikipedia link is very interesting reading.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

PGG is correct. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

 

[urge]

I'm at a point where I don't believe the news because everything can be made up to steers people's thoughts.

My only question is how come the plane debris is recognizable for this one, but not for the downed plane from 9/11 in Pennsylvania?

 

[periopdoc]

This plane was impacted by a missile at 30,000 feet, broke apart, and the pieces came down to earth. UA 93 was intact as it essentially flew straight into the ground thus burying most of the debris. If anything, this should put to rest the ridiculous notion that UA 93 was downed by US forces. When a plane breaks apart in the air, there is a large debris field (see debris field from Space Shuttle Columbia which broke apart at 66,000 feet and 1,800 mph.

In Alaska, I have seen small planes (think Cessna/Piper 3-6 seaters) flown into the ground ala UA 93. There is remarkably little debris that can be found, especially if they crash into soft earth. If they stall out and belly flop into the ground, there is a lot more identifiable debris.

- pod

 

[pgg]

My only question is how come the plane debris is recognizable for this one, but not for the downed plane from 9/11 in Pennsylvania?

One broke up in midair and pieces dropped at the terminal velocity of falling junk, and one hit the ground in one piece at 600 mph?


Or maybe the guys who faked the moon landing are out of practice and got sloppy, and you figured them out.

 

[scutdoc]

About sanctions, here's a brief article, although I don't know how likely it is to happen.

 

[deleted171991]

Isolating Putin won't fix anything. It will just fuel the Russian nationalist paranoia in the population, that the West is out to get them. It always works like that in any dictatorship with well-controlled mass-media and Internet.

 

[FiremedicMike]

In an interesting development, apparently the rebels just stole all the bodies from the crash site..

 

[nimbus]

Isolating Putin won't fix anything. It will just fuel the Russian nationalist paranoia in the population, that the West is out to get them. It always works like that in any dictatorship with well-controlled mass-media and Internet.

Yes. Putin's domestic approval rating is 83%

 

[sevoflurane]

Yes. Putin's domestic approval rating is 83%

Yes....but in a country like Russia, you absolutely can't believe what the media says.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5598815

 

[deleted171991]

Yeah, but most Russians don't have enough political education to even know it. Or they don't care, because they are drinking the nationalist kool-aid that's pumped continuously by the media.

There is a reason why the Roman saying "bread and circuses" is so famous; it applies perfectly to 90% of mankind. They could have a dictatorship developing right under their nose and wouldn't notice or do anything about it. By the time they notice, it's always too late.

 

[pgg]

Yes. Putin's domestic approval rating is 83%

Pffftht. Kim Jong Un won 100% of the votes in his last election. Dancing in the streets. Everyone was so happy:

 

[deleted171991]

You either dance, or you and your family "disappear". Tough choice, right?

 

[pgg]

You either dance, or you and your family "disappear". Tough choice, right?

I read an interesting article about North Korea elections, suggesting that another major purpose of elections wasn't just to present a sham show of support - surely not even brainwashed North Koreans believe support for the regime is 100% - but rather as a frequent census of the population. Ie, to make sure all the people were actually where they were supposed to be, and to disrupt any black market economy or employment. Everyone shows up to vote or they and their families are suspect. So the guys who sneak across the border to work in China have to come home for the election or their families get whacked.

 

[narcusprince]

I would like to make an argument that North Koreans on average are more happier then Americans. Why? Because their supreme diety in human form lives among them and 99% of North Koreans live their life according to their culture. As christians we go to church read the bible and pray to a God that we have never seen, never audbily heard, or met why because we have faith. North Koreans in order to see their God have to turn on the television or go to a rally. They see their GOD performing miracles every day IE providing food( to most), shelter, jobs. They are all united in their love for their Dictator. We will never understand this because in America we have politics, in North Korea their is no politics just the whims of a dictator/demigod. Plus we are use to are western philosphy of consumption, capitalism, and freedom of choice. I would argue as Americans we are probably the most un-happiest people in the world. Why? because many of our youth idolizes lifestyles that 99% of us will never obtain. Money, cars, fast lifestyle is the new norm. Whereas earlier it was the goal of a nuclear family IE husband wife 2.5 children. We have lost faith in the real values, whereas an average North Korean sees their values and faith, God in the flesh.

 

[deleted171991]

You forgot </sarcasm>, I hope.

 

[nimbus]

I would like to make an argument that North Koreans on average are more happier then Americans. Why? Because their supreme diety in human form lives among them and 99% of North Koreans live their life according to their culture. As christians we go to church read the bible and pray to a God that we have never seen, never audbily heard, or met why because we have faith. North Koreans in order to see their God have to turn on the television or go to a rally. They see their GOD performing miracles every day IE providing food( to most), shelter, jobs. They are all united in their love for their Dictator. We will never understand this because in America we have politics, in North Korea their is no politics just the whims of a dictator/demigod. Plus we are use to are western philosphy of consumption, capitalism, and freedom of choice. I would argue as Americans we are probably the most un-happiest people in the world. Why? because many of our youth idolizes lifestyles that 99% of us will never obtain. Money, cars, fast lifestyle is the new norm. Whereas earlier it was the goal of a nuclear family IE husband wife 2.5 children. We have lost faith in the real values, whereas an average North Korean sees their values and faith, God in the flesh.

You forgot the part about poverty, fear, treachery and brutality. If a North Korean is happy, it's not because of their leadership.

 

[pgg]

Maybe the propaganda is partly successful, and many North Koreans truly don't know how good the rest of the world has it, but that doesn't make them unaware of their own misery.

 

[narcusprince]

I agree its propoganda. They don't know how nice the rest of the world has it. Likewise we as Americans are unaware at how bad some people have it in the world. I guess I dont believe happiness is directly proportional to material wealth.

 

[sevoflurane]

Here is some propaganda...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/malaysia-plane-crash-propaganda-war/index.html?hpt=wo_c1

 

[k12balla]

I agree its propoganda. They don't know how nice the rest of the world has it. Likewise we as Americans are unaware at how bad some people have it in the world. I guess I dont believe happiness is directly proportional to material wealth.

Interesting perspective. Ignorance is bliss though, and no matter how "free" our advanced industrialized society is with seemingly unlimited access to whatever whenever, we are all guilty of viewing the world through a filter.

 

[geogil]

The strategy of "ignore it, it's a European problem" is appealing on face value. America enjoyed "splendid isolation" until 1917 when the HMS Lusitania was sunk, finally engaging us in WWI. We are all familiar as well with Pearl Harbor, although the US was materially involved in WWII by that point. What strikes me as unfortunately similar to the late 1930's is the tacit policy of appeasement that the rest of Europe had towards Nazi Germany. "If we let him annex Austria, maybe he'll stop," "maybe he'll stop if he gets Poland" was the paradigm dominating foreign policy, because nobody wanted another expensive fratricidal pan-European war again. It feels to me like we're in Neville Chamberlain's England, that if we just ignore Putin, he'll stop at annexing the Crimea. I think he's playing brinksmanship and seeing what the international community will let him get away with. Latvia and Lithuania are tiny little countries filled with ethnic Russians as well, and Putin could seemingly just as easily foment rebellion/ phony referenda in another land grab. When does it stop? Does the EU need to man up and actually apply meaningful sanctions, since they actually have economically significant amounts of trade with Russia? Of course this won't happen. The French? no, there's too much land insulating them from Russia to feel the imminent threat of invasion. The dutch? Germany?

 

[pgg]

Re: ignore it, it's a European problem

What's different now is nuclear weapons. Sure in hindsight it's easy to say that Europe shouldn't have appeased Hitler, but he didn't have nuclear weapons. The world's been different for about 70 years now; no one screws with nuclear armed countries because the risk of escalation, however unlikely, is unthinkable.

Ukraine's first mistake in this mess was made 20 years ago in 1994, when they agreed to let Russia take custody of their nuclear arsenal ... in return for Russia's solemn promise, pinky swear, cross my heart and hope to die, we'll respect your territory and sovereignity.

You can bet that if Ukraine still had a nuclear deterrent Russia wouldn't be supplying tanks with giant anti-aircraft missiles and fire control radar to disgruntled ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

And you can bet that Iran and North Korea and every other nuclear-club-wannabe nation out there has noticed this too.

 

[BuzzPhreed]

I would like to make an argument that North Koreans on average are more happier then Americans. Why? Because their supreme diety in human form lives among them and 99% of North Koreans live their life according to their culture. As christians we go to church read the bible and pray to a God that we have never seen, never audbily heard, or met why because we have faith. North Koreans in order to see their God have to turn on the television or go to a rally. They see their GOD performing miracles every day IE providing food( to most), shelter, jobs. They are all united in their love for their Dictator. We will never understand this because in America we have politics, in North Korea their is no politics just the whims of a dictator/demigod. Plus we are use to are western philosphy of consumption, capitalism, and freedom of choice. I would argue as Americans we are probably the most un-happiest people in the world. Why? because many of our youth idolizes lifestyles that 99% of us will never obtain. Money, cars, fast lifestyle is the new norm. Whereas earlier it was the goal of a nuclear family IE husband wife 2.5 children. We have lost faith in the real values, whereas an average North Korean sees their values and faith, God in the flesh.

This isn't a serious post, is it? You don't actually believe what you wrote here, do you?

If it was and you did, you need to read this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kim/them/defector.html

"Kim Duk Hong is one of the highest ranking officials to defect from North Korea. He escaped from North Korea in 1997..."

QUOTE:

"Everyone wants to escape from North Korea. If Kim Jong Il would open the industry of North Korea, his system would die. North Korean people really want to open up, to trade with other countries, but Kim Jong Il doesn't.


I don't understand why you guys don't try to talk to the people of North Korea rather than to Kim Jong Il. He might not listen to you. If you guys help our people to get out of there, there would be a revolution by people against Kim Jong Il in North Korea. There are lots of defectors from North Korea in China, South Korea. We have connections to people in North Korea, and eventually we could have revolution."

 

[pgg]

"Everyone wants to escape from North Korea. If Kim Jong Il would open the industry of North Korea, his system would die. North Korean people really want to open up, to trade with other countries, but Kim Jong Il doesn't.

I don't understand why you guys don't try to talk to the people of North Korea rather than to Kim Jong Il. He might not listen to you. If you guys help our people to get out of there, there would be a revolution by people against Kim Jong Il in North Korea. There are lots of defectors from North Korea in China, South Korea. We have connections to people in North Korea, and eventually we could have revolution."

Is there a Bay of Pigs in Norkland too?