DVM/PhD Experience

[Foxhunter]

The thing that dawned on me in the last year or so was that if I want to go into academia, the combined degree is worthless without either a residency (and likely an internship before depending on specialty) or a post-doc. So to get value from both degrees, I almost certainly have to do some sort of post-graduate training. The residency/internship I could've done after a DVM alone and the post-doc I could've done after a PhD alone.

I know I want to have my hands on animals at some point in time, but frankly largely due to anxiety/depression and just really not caring my DVM grades aren't really good enough for a residency/internship to be a super viable option. So now I'm working on a PhD that I started from scratch this fall while my classmates are in their 3rd year of vet school and scheduling clinical rotations. When I'm in the lab and thinking about science and my project, I do really like the science side and I think I'm glad I did it. I manage to stay somewhat clinically involved. I work in the large animal hospital once or twice a month, I go to volunteer spay/neuter days every month or two, sometimes I attend rounds or something at the vet school. But there are days where it's like, if I'd just gone to vet school I would be graduating in May and instead I'll be graduating when juniors in college are graduating. Like they haven't even applied to vet school yet.

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[Foxhunter]

ok end rant for now.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Out of curiousity, what veterinary programs were you looking at? Or recommend? My research experience is an anatomic pathology technician, which is how I found out about veterinary pathology, which is how I learned I want to become one. I'm not desperately interested in becoming a tenure-track professor, I'm much more interested into going back into the pre-clinical field doing toxicology/pathology for research institutions. I loved that stuff and went back to graduate school so I could be qualified for more responsibility. (Addendum, of the few companies I looked at, it always seemed like they had job postings for vet paths either anatomic or clinical or both. I don't know if the job postings are reflective of actual job demand, since I did notice a huge disconnect between sciences and HR.)

The impression I got when I left the work force in 2014 was that the job market for vet pathologists in industry was pretty solid. Am I off-base in that regard? I do have an opportunity to pursue primary authorship on a paper in my MPH program (Thanks bio professor!) and haven't decided if that's something I have the time to do, or is do-able before I graduate from the MPH program in May.

What you've described for a basic science PhD research track is essentially why I didn't apply to neuroscience PhD programs. I LOVED that work, still regret that I didn't finish refining my immunofluorescent staining techniques, but my PI was brutally honest about what the research field was like in 2010 when I graduated out of his lab as an undergraduate research assistant. He was super awesome, and I'd work for him in a heart beat if funding was an issue.

There is a pretty good demand for tox path people - that's definitely an area that is pretty solid because not many people want to do it. Overall the path world isn't too bad, especially if you go industry. I don't know of any pathologists who are desperately hard up for a job. Academia is harder - which is why the PhD is usually necessary to be really competitive - but still doable.

Most programs are pretty solid too. I know of a few with significant drawbacks though, if you want you can PM me and I can give you the details since I don't want to go bashing anyone in public. The board pass rate, number of residents (and level of camaraderie), availability of faculty, caseload, and specifics of resident prep (classes, mock boards, rounds, etc) are the most important factors.

 

[Foxhunter]

There is a pretty good demand for tox path people - that's definitely an area that is pretty solid because not many people want to do it. Overall the path world isn't too bad, especially if you go industry. I don't know of any pathologists who are desperately hard up for a job. Academia is harder - which is why the PhD is usually necessary to be really competitive - but still doable.

Most programs are pretty solid too. I know of a few with significant drawbacks though, if you want you can PM me and I can give you the details since I don't want to go bashing anyone in public. The board pass rate, number of residents (and level of camaraderie), availability of faculty, caseload, and specifics of resident prep (classes, mock boards, rounds, etc) are the most important factors.

a professor you and i both know who likes to get drunk and go fishing at conferences likes to try to get me into tox path.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

a professor you and i both know who likes to get drunk and go fishing at conferences likes to try to get me into tox path.

Ahahahahahaha. Bless his heart.

 

[PrincessButterCup]

Tox pathology is the best kept secret of path. It's so cool, no one ever wants to join.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Tox pathology is the best kept secret of path. It's so cool, no one ever wants to join.

The ACVP meeting this year was held jointly with the STP one. Some pretty cool stuff. Still not really my thing, but they all seemed to like their jobs.

 

[lianali]

Tox pathology is the best kept secret of path. It's so cool, no one ever wants to join.

Inconceivable!

 

[Foxhunter]

Yo. Hey. Any of you interviewing at NCSU on thursday???? I'll be at lunch with you (because nothing attracts grad students like free lunches)

 

[equus_susurrus12]

I am in need of advice and this seems to be the right place to post my situation. My ultimate goal is to be faculty one day. I love research, I love patient care and I love to teach. I took a gap year after undergrad, which turned into two. Those years I worked as a LA ICU tech and a small animal assistant. I am wait listed (fairly far down) at the only school I applied for- my IS.
I have two jobs I love right now, but I was agonizing over what to do if I have to apply to vet school next year- how to improve and all... My boss sat next to my desk a few days ago and offered for me to do a MS/PhD with her if I didn't get off the wait list. It is a HUGE opportunity as she is a big name in the industry. I was floored. Didn't expect that at all. So alas, here I am at a cross roads.
Do people have any thoughts on doing a PhD and then vet school? And then a residency? I had always had vet school first in my mind. Thoughts?



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[Osudairy]

Inconceivable!

"You use that word a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means"

 

[Minnerbelle]

It will likely prepare you better as a scientist to do the PhD first, and you'll likely be a better researcher because of it. But then if you're going straight to vet school and residency after that without a post-doc, I'm not sure how much helpful it is. The post-doc is what really sets you up for your career in research. The people I have known who have done the PhD first then vet school were the people who decided they didn't want to be scientists any longer.

I think you should consider your goals. If your goal is to become a teaching clinical
Veterinarian at a teaching hospital (internist, cardiologist, what have you), who mentors resident research and publishes mostly clinical studies, that may be the long way to go about it. A stand alone PhD unless you're really lucky will take way longer than the PhD portion of a combined program. And funding wise you have the chance of getting tuition paid for vet school with a combined program.

Another option if you're going to need to take a gap year or two is to take the MS option with your boss, and use that to bolster your app for a combined program. If your goals change, you can always stay on for the PhD.



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[Osudairy]

Another option if you're going to need to take a gap year or two is to take the MS option with your boss, and use that to bolster your app for a combined program. If your goals change, you can always stay on for the PhD.

Indeed, an MS will help your application! It also helps for the combined degree program (at least at my school)

 

[lilylilac]

I am in need of advice and this seems to be the right place to post my situation. My ultimate goal is to be faculty one day. I love research, I love patient care and I love to teach. I took a gap year after undergrad, which turned into two. Those years I worked as a LA ICU tech and a small animal assistant. I am wait listed (fairly far down) at the only school I applied for- my IS.
I have two jobs I love right now, but I was agonizing over what to do if I have to apply to vet school next year- how to improve and all... My boss sat next to my desk a few days ago and offered for me to do a MS/PhD with her if I didn't get off the wait list. It is a HUGE opportunity as she is a big name in the industry. I was floored. Didn't expect that at all. So alas, here I am at a cross roads.
Do people have any thoughts on doing a PhD and then vet school? And then a residency? I had always had vet school first in my mind. Thoughts?



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I have a PhD and am starting vet school this year. My PhD took me little less than 5.5 years to complete, so keep that in mind if this is a path that interests you. The average PhD student (not through a dual degree program) takes about 5 years to complete. I realized almost 3 years into my program that I really enjoyed vet pathology (specifically tox path) and wanted to pursue it as a career. Therefore, my vet experience was very low compared to other applicants, but I was still accepted to 3 schools on my first application cycle. A PhD teaches you not only research/technical/writing/communication skills, but it also pretty much forces you to think independently and critically, as well as be self-reliant, motivated, organized, and on top of your schedule. There's also several opportunities to mentor/TA if that is your thing (not really mine). I went directly to a PhD program after undergrad, so I'm 27 now, 31 when graduating vet school, and (hopefully) 34-35 when I finish a pathology residency. It's definitely a long road and burnout is definitely a possibility. However, I really enjoy research and am not leaving research because I don't want to be a scientist anymore. I absolutely love my current post doc position, but it's not my ultimate career goal. If you or anyone else has further questions about this trajectory, feel free to PM me!

 

[Osudairy]

A PhD teaches you not only research/technical/writing/communication skills, but it also pretty much forces you to think independently and critically, as well as be self-reliant, motivated, organized, and on top of your schedule. There's also several opportunities to mentor/TA if that is your thing (not really mine).

Granted I did not go as far as a PhD, I agree wholeheartedly. You practice more applied science as to just memorizing things like in undergrad. The teaching/research opportunities are what attracted me to it. It will really help you mature as a student and ALWAYS ask yourself "why" something is happening.

 

[TRexVet]

Apologies for typos... a bit jet-lagged and groggy

I'm out of college doing a masters in a completely different field (it is still sciencey but more of a cross-over with social sciences) but will be back-tracking, finishing up some prereqs and applying to vet programs. My big problem this entire time is that I have a lot of research experience, really like doing research, and really like the idea of going into academia, but I also really like vet med and find the current job prospects in pure science somewhat terrifying. The most difficult part is that now that I've spent several years figuring out exactly what type of research I like, it happens to be animal behavior and human-animal interactions/relationships. I am playing with the idea of doing a DVM-PhD so I can do both and go into academia, which I think I would be very happy doing (I'm surrounded by academics both in personal and professional life and have a pretty good idea of how things work). If the vet-med professor route doesn't work out I'd be more than happy to go into clinical work. (If the DVM-PhD doesn't pan out I will be doing just a DVM.) I do not want to get caught in the publish or perish treadmill, but also really like the creative aspect of research, which is why I like the idea of teaching with some research.

The most difficult part is when it comes to my research interests:
I have two main broad areas of research I am interested in at the moment, the first being canine aggression and the effectiveness of management/training that attempts to address aggression issues. The second area is human-animal relationships, specifically how we can maximize the effect veterinarians have on the lives of their animal patients through their human clients. Effectively trying to figure out how we can improve the way the current vet-patient-owner relationship works. As I'm sure you'll all have noticed by now, this is pretty darn atypical for a DVM-PhD and almost no programs account for this. UPenn seems to be the most flexible from what I've read because while their program is geared towards biomed research, they technically let you do any graduate program. Am I crazy in thinking someone will let me do something along these lines? I personally think this area of research is really valuable, but will potential employers (for professor jobs) buy it? In my ideal world I would be headed to one of the few DVM-PhD programs that provides a stipend for most (if not all) of the program and provides at least a partial repayment of the DVM tuition and fees (I think UPenn, Davis, Cornell, and NCState are all sort of in this range?). Afterwards I'd probably want to do a residency and then head into the academia route. If I can't get decent funding for the DVM-PhD a residency would probably be out of the question since I can't spend an eternity in school unless I've got really low (or non-existent) loans.

So, how insane am I?

 

[lianali]

Honestly, it's been my experience that publish or perish is inescapable in academia. I started working in a neuroscience lab as an undergrad, and writing grants was the thing my PI resented most about his job. It ate up the majority of his time. It feels the same way in the different departments that I've had contact with in my MPH degree. I took an elective in geology to learn geospatial mapping, my professor has resigned herself to never getting tenure because she doesn't get flashy grants or flashy papers. I'm interning in my biology professor's lab to get wildlife animal handling experience, and he's doing well because he just got a new grant where the writing portion ate up his time. I feel a little less of the stress that publish or perish maxium in the public health department where I work as a graduate assistant, but I think that's because the department's focus is on public health education and administering intervention programs with community partners. That said, I helped write the non-federal grant renewal application that keeps me funded.

So... yeah. That's the reason I haven't applied to any PhD programs despite working in research for 5 years outside of college and having a decent list of secondary author credits on a number of publications. I'm just not ready for the cutthroat competition amongst super smart people for an increasingly shrinking pool of federal money to fund research. I worked in industry research for a while and the money was good there, and that's where I want to return to working as a vet path. That said, my old neuroscience PI was saying they shifted over to animal behavior studies because that's where the research money was. I think if you go in with eyes wide open, the uphill battle to make a good living doing research may not be so defeating to you because you already knew you were going to have to make some tough sacrifices to make work profitable.

 

[lilylilac]

I have two main broad areas of research I am interested in at the moment, the first being canine aggression and the effectiveness of management/training that attempts to address aggression issues. The second area is human-animal relationships, specifically how we can maximize the effect veterinarians have on the lives of their animal patients through their human clients.

One of the major problems I see is the possibility of funding for these areas/interests. Also, while a PhD obviously has a specific question you're asking/answering, it's very important for learning how to "think like a scientist", learning how to think critically, communicate effectively, etc. For you, getting a PhD in neuroscience, for example, would provide you with a great foundation and the necessary skills to have a career in research and still be somewhat related to your interests.

 

[TRexVet]

That said, my old neuroscience PI was saying they shifted over to animal behavior studies because that's where the research money was.

Ooh, this sounds promising in terms of my research interests. What type of animal behavior research? More lab animal I'm guessing rather than companion animal/clinical animal behavior?

 

[lianali]

Ooh, this sounds promising in terms of my research interests. What type of animal behavior research? More lab animal I'm guessing rather than companion animal/clinical animal behavior?

Yup, he works with mice and rats.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Apologies for typos... a bit jet-lagged and groggy

I'm out of college doing a masters in a completely different field (it is still sciencey but more of a cross-over with social sciences) but will be back-tracking, finishing up some prereqs and applying to vet programs. My big problem this entire time is that I have a lot of research experience, really like doing research, and really like the idea of going into academia, but I also really like vet med and find the current job prospects in pure science somewhat terrifying. The most difficult part is that now that I've spent several years figuring out exactly what type of research I like, it happens to be animal behavior and human-animal interactions/relationships. I am playing with the idea of doing a DVM-PhD so I can do both and go into academia, which I think I would be very happy doing (I'm surrounded by academics both in personal and professional life and have a pretty good idea of how things work). If the vet-med professor route doesn't work out I'd be more than happy to go into clinical work. (If the DVM-PhD doesn't pan out I will be doing just a DVM.) I do not want to get caught in the publish or perish treadmill, but also really like the creative aspect of research, which is why I like the idea of teaching with some research.

The most difficult part is when it comes to my research interests:
I have two main broad areas of research I am interested in at the moment, the first being canine aggression and the effectiveness of management/training that attempts to address aggression issues. The second area is human-animal relationships, specifically how we can maximize the effect veterinarians have on the lives of their animal patients through their human clients. Effectively trying to figure out how we can improve the way the current vet-patient-owner relationship works. As I'm sure you'll all have noticed by now, this is pretty darn atypical for a DVM-PhD and almost no programs account for this. UPenn seems to be the most flexible from what I've read because while their program is geared towards biomed research, they technically let you do any graduate program. Am I crazy in thinking someone will let me do something along these lines? I personally think this area of research is really valuable, but will potential employers (for professor jobs) buy it? In my ideal world I would be headed to one of the few DVM-PhD programs that provides a stipend for most (if not all) of the program and provides at least a partial repayment of the DVM tuition and fees (I think UPenn, Davis, Cornell, and NCState are all sort of in this range?). Afterwards I'd probably want to do a residency and then head into the academia route. If I can't get decent funding for the DVM-PhD a residency would probably be out of the question since I can't spend an eternity in school unless I've got really low (or non-existent) loans.

So, how insane am I?

In terms of the publish or perish treadmill....it is inescapable if you are in a research appointment.

I hate to rain on your parade, but getting any sort of funding in companion animal behavior will be difficult if not sometimes impossible depending on the year. NIH is out of the question without as human medicine component, and industry isn't interested in something that doesn't have a product, so you'd probably be looking exclusively at club and foundation grants which are pretty paltry.

If you want to have a significant research component in your career, you're going to have to expand those interests in to human/translational aims or else finding funding will be *extremely* difficult once you are on your own (or even before).

Have you considered doing the DVM and then pursuing the PhD afterwards, i.e. through a T32 mechanism?

 

[TRexVet]

If you want to have a significant research component in your career, you're going to have to expand those interests in to human/translational aims or else finding funding will be *extremely* difficult once you are on your own (or even before).

I'm not familiar with the T32 mechanism so I'll go look that up (unless that's just slang for doing a PhD separately after haha)

I'm interested in canine behavior in general, so I could definitely see myself doing research in a direction that could have a direct impact on animal-assisted therapy work or working dogs. Maybe that would be more suitable for funding since it is more directly applicable to a human cause? There's a professor at UPenn who pretty much does research in exactly the areas I am interested in, so I'm going to get in contact with him soon (though I can't even apply for another year and a half... sigh, those darn pre-reqs...)

And I definitely don't mind writing articles/grant proposals (I'll likely have around 4 published papers, at least 2 as first author, before applying), I would just want there to be somewhat of a balance between that and teaching/clinical work/the non-writing bits of research. Is hoping for a bit of balance completely naive?

 

[SummerTheLynx]

I'm not familiar with the T32 mechanism so I'll go look that up (unless that's just slang for doing a PhD separately after haha)

I'm interested in canine behavior in general, so I could definitely see myself doing research in a direction that could have a direct impact on animal-assisted therapy work or working dogs. Maybe that would be more suitable for funding since it is more directly applicable to a human cause? There's a professor at UPenn who pretty much does research in exactly the areas I am interested in, so I'm going to get in contact with him soon (though I can't even apply for another year and a half... sigh, those darn pre-reqs...)

And I definitely don't mind writing articles/grant proposals (I'll likely have around 4 published papers, at least 2 as first author, before applying), I would just want there to be somewhat of a balance between that and teaching/clinical work/the non-writing bits of research. Is hoping for a bit of balance completely naive?

I am having my fun with T32 right now. It is essentially the teaching grant that will fund your education, stipend, part of your research, etc. It's generally a 3 year grant with the remainder of your time being covered by the department/your mentor.

With regards to balance, it's based off your assignments. My mentor has I think a 40/40/15/5 assingment, which is a 40% clinics, 40% research, 15% teaching, and 5% service. That would probably be about the mix I would want to do when I get out, which is a fairly good mix. But I also know others with a 80/15/5 that have no clinical aspect, so it really just depends on the assignment that you work out with the university.

All that being said, I am fairly new to all of this, as this has literally snowballed into something real from about a week ago, just wanted to add my two cents where I could.

 

[TRexVet]

My mentor has I think a 40/40/15/5 assingment, which is a 40% clinics, 40% research, 15% teaching, and 5% service. That would probably be about the mix I would want to do when I get out, which is a fairly good mix.

That actually sounds pretty perfect... do you know if it actually works out sort of that way or does the department/university still expect them to be publishing and bringing in as much grant money as if they were doing the 80/15/5? And thanks for the info on the T32! Good luck with everything!

Thanks for all of the replies everyone =) You're helping me (slowly) get my life in order haha

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm currently on a T32, and it is basically like being a regular grad student. I went DVM--> residency --> PhD and I still maintain that is the best way to go in terms of order except in very specific circumstances, especially if you want to have a sizeable component of research in your eventual goal position. It is stipulated that all of my time must be spent on research (and this is the rule for T32s - you are NIH's pet for 3 years). I still help teach some clinical labs here and there and go to rounds, but the only time I can take actual duty is on weekends.

Your mix once you get done is very dependent on position.

 

[TRexVet]

Thanks for the info WTF!

Could anyone give me an idea of what the admissions committees are expecting when it comes to DVM/PhD applicants?

I have a lot of research experience (four in-depth independent research projects from undergrad including one that's animal behavior based (being published with me as first author), an honors thesis receiving highest honors (publishing once I'm done with my current degree), and currently doing a master's at a big-name school that requires two independent research projects in addition to my research-based dissertation. I also worked in research labs during high school. However, all of my research projects except one are in a science/social sciences cross-over field and do not have anything to do with vet med. I do luckily have the one project that is animal behavior based and have a paper in review from that right now. I'm planning on publishing my honors thesis and (assuming it's worth publishing) master's thesis during my first year out (2016-2017) and should be on at least one other paper (if promises are kept). High GPA, lots of scholarships, project grants, fellowships, etc on my CV. Two regional/national conference poster presentations and multiple university level poster presentations. I have thousands of animal experience hours including equine, companion animal, and lab animal, BUT have almost no vet experience. I could maybe get 200 hours or 250 by this coming application cycle. I also have four or five pre-req classes to finish during the 2016-2017 year, but it looks like I could finish those after applying and before matriculating. I was planning on applying in Fall 2017, but I have found the perfect program and adviser and why take off more than a year if I don't have to.

Would I even be considered in the Fall 2016 round with so little vet experience? Is research experience research experience or will they discount everything that wasn't animal behavior/vet med related? I do have a cohesive narrative that I can use to explain my transition to the vet med research route.

 

[supershorty]

TRexVet, happy to answer your questions via PM if you want - I'm starting the DVM/PhD program at Minnesota this fall, so just went through this process.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Thanks for the info WTF!

Could anyone give me an idea of what the admissions committees are expecting when it comes to DVM/PhD applicants?

I have a lot of research experience (four in-depth independent research projects from undergrad including one that's animal behavior based (being published with me as first author), an honors thesis receiving highest honors (publishing once I'm done with my current degree), and currently doing a master's at a big-name school that requires two independent research projects in addition to my research-based dissertation. I also worked in research labs during high school. However, all of my research projects except one are in a science/social sciences cross-over field and do not have anything to do with vet med. I do luckily have the one project that is animal behavior based and have a paper in review from that right now. I'm planning on publishing my honors thesis and (assuming it's worth publishing) master's thesis during my first year out (2016-2017) and should be on at least one other paper (if promises are kept). High GPA, lots of scholarships, project grants, fellowships, etc on my CV. Two regional/national conference poster presentations and multiple university level poster presentations. I have thousands of animal experience hours including equine, companion animal, and lab animal, BUT have almost no vet experience. I could maybe get 200 hours or 250 by this coming application cycle. I also have four or five pre-req classes to finish during the 2016-2017 year, but it looks like I could finish those after applying and before matriculating. I was planning on applying in Fall 2017, but I have found the perfect program and adviser and why take off more than a year if I don't have to.

Would I even be considered in the Fall 2016 round with so little vet experience? Is research experience research experience or will they discount everything that wasn't animal behavior/vet med related? I do have a cohesive narrative that I can use to explain my transition to the vet med research route.

I think if you come in with a clear idea and path of where you want to go, you'll be fine. I was very similar to you and I applied to the regular DVM program with thousands of hours of research experience and only a couple hundred at most actual veterinary and animal experience. My research was also quite varied and not directly related to vet med - everything from inorganic chemistry to fisheries/wildlife science. But I made it very clear in my application that clinical work wasn't where I was headed.

Even if a lot of your research is in social sciences, like you said, you can still highlight those experiences as getting you comfortable not just with research in general but also things like critical thinking, scientific writing, experimental design, collaboration/team science, etc. You definitely seem to have the dedication and resume, it will likely be a matter of selling yourself as someone who has clear career goals and a well-thought-out plan of how to achieve those goals.

 

[sorasea]

Thanks for the info WTF!

Could anyone give me an idea of what the admissions committees are expecting when it comes to DVM/PhD applicants?

I have a lot of research experience (four in-depth independent research projects from undergrad including one that's animal behavior based (being published with me as first author), an honors thesis receiving highest honors (publishing once I'm done with my current degree), and currently doing a master's at a big-name school that requires two independent research projects in addition to my research-based dissertation. I also worked in research labs during high school. However, all of my research projects except one are in a science/social sciences cross-over field and do not have anything to do with vet med. I do luckily have the one project that is animal behavior based and have a paper in review from that right now. I'm planning on publishing my honors thesis and (assuming it's worth publishing) master's thesis during my first year out (2016-2017) and should be on at least one other paper (if promises are kept). High GPA, lots of scholarships, project grants, fellowships, etc on my CV. Two regional/national conference poster presentations and multiple university level poster presentations. I have thousands of animal experience hours including equine, companion animal, and lab animal, BUT have almost no vet experience. I could maybe get 200 hours or 250 by this coming application cycle. I also have four or five pre-req classes to finish during the 2016-2017 year, but it looks like I could finish those after applying and before matriculating. I was planning on applying in Fall 2017, but I have found the perfect program and adviser and why take off more than a year if I don't have to.

Would I even be considered in the Fall 2016 round with so little vet experience? Is research experience research experience or will they discount everything that wasn't animal behavior/vet med related? I do have a cohesive narrative that I can use to explain my transition to the vet med research route.

This post is a tad old but I was perusing SDN for the first time in a long time, trying to muster enough ****s to cram for a final today...

Anyway, I'm in the dual-degree program at Penn now, but I'm not really qualified to speak from an admissions standpoint (otherwise I'd know why the heck they let me in). With that said, I can't imagine why a dual degree adcom would discount your other research experiences just because they're in a different field. At worst, they may discount them if a research experience was more like washing glassware (and I had one of those on my CV, which one interviewer at a different school literally hand-waved away when I mentioned it, haha). I think the main point is that you are aware of what a research career entails, how to think like a scientist, etc.

Regarding vet experience, remember that some of these programs (including Penn's) require you to pass the DVM admissions process independently. If you can articulate why you want a DVM/PhD specifically (and not a PhD alone or an MD/PhD), even with little to no vet experience, you may convince the DVM/PhD adcom. But your vet school adcom might be less impressed. I believe Davis has a minimum number of hours, so you'd have to meet that requirement to apply. Anecdotally, I and the rest of my cohort had at least a couple hundred hours of vet experience when we applied. It was definitely the weakest part of my application, but it wasn't nonexistent. I did have to take a gap year to rack up vet experience, unfortunately.

And this is an unsolicited opinion, but I feel like your research interests are quite accessible with a DVM. Many vets I know do clinical research, and your interests sound like a great fit for behavioral medicine (although I'm not super familiar with the field). Do you feel like you can't achieve your goals without the PhD? I realize you are aiming for academia, but I'm not sure there's much funding for research with no significant impact on human health. Not to discount your interests - our Working Dog Center is awesome and we even have a class on the human-animal bond, so Penn could be a great place for you.

Feel free to PM me if you have any more specific questions.

 

[supershorty]

Regarding vet experience, remember that some of these programs (including Penn's) require you to pass the DVM admissions process independently. If you can articulate why you want a DVM/PhD specifically (and not a PhD alone or an MD/PhD), even with little to no vet experience, you may convince the DVM/PhD adcom. But your vet school adcom might be less impressed.

This is a really good point, and one that I was asked about a lot during my DVM/PhD interview. I don't know how other schools do it, but Minnesota has separate interviews for the DVM and dual committees, and for the dual one, you also meet one-on-one with up to 4 faculty members for mini-interviews (so up to 5 interviews total that day). All 5 of mine asked me why I wanted to pursue a dual degree and asked if I could explain why I needed both degrees and couldn't just do the research I wanted with a DVM. It was pretty important to have good reasons to want to go for a dual degree, not just "I want to do research, so I want to get a PhD."

 

[TRexVet]

Many vets I know do clinical research, and your interests sound like a great fit for behavioral medicine (although I'm not super familiar with the field). Do you feel like you can't achieve your goals without the PhD?

Thank you so much for the info! I definitely will contact you and @supershorty via PM (in about two weeks when my exams are over... god help my soul).
That is honestly what I am struggling with right now. I am undecided about doing the DVM-PhD versus doing a dvm and then doing a residency-PhD combo or just doing a DVM and a regular residency. I have absolutely fallen in love with the UPenn program and especially the working dog program. If I could do my PhD working there I would be in absolute heaven. I'm honestly a little hazy at this point on what background I do/don't need in order to do the type of research I want to do (think any of the studies they're doing at the working dog center right now plus a bit of more clinically focused behavioral research). I'm going to get in contact with the prof I would want to do my PhD with soon and see whether it would even be an option and whether it would be the right path to take. I'm taking time off, so I've got some time.

In regards to funding, I think working dog research might be a bit of a better bet than regular behavioral research since there are multiple government agencies that benefit from that type of research.

What are the good reasons people have for doing a dvm/phd rather than just one or the other?