Effect of Disciplinary Probation on Residency and Future

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AmedStudent

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Hi. I was caught bringing in a cheat sheet into an exam in medical school. The school decided to allow me to repeat the year and put me on disciplinary probation. I am a B student. What effect will this have on residency and the future? Thanks. I would appreciate any advice.

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flaming in 3, 2, 1........
 
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Kill Step 1 and you'll be fine. :thumbup:
 
Kill Step 1 and you'll be fine. :thumbup:

Hilarious Keyzer.

But seriously, I was having this conversation with someone yesterday.

How the F do u cheat in med school, not morally, but logistically?

there's so much information, was it a ton of tiny writing, just one or two things you couldnt keep straight? or what? Cost/benefit, not in terms of being caught really, but just how many points u can gain just doesnt seem impressive enough.
 
Hilarious Keyzer.

But seriously, I was having this conversation with someone yesterday.

How the F do u cheat in med school, not morally, but logistically?

there's so much information, was it a ton of tiny writing, just one or two things you couldnt keep straight? or what? Cost/benefit, not in terms of being caught really, but just how many points u can gain just doesnt seem impressive enough.

Yep, I completely agree. Last year, we had a speaker here who is an expert on academic dishonesty in medical schools. Afterwards, he asked the faculty and students how much cheating goes on. Most people responded that it was minimal if at all, but some faculty disagreed - they pointed out that students are allowed to go to the bathroom during exams, and it would be easy to have a cheat sheet or electronic device in your pocket. I'd heard of students allegedly doing that, but it seemed absurd to me. Unless you write things on your hands or something (not suspicious at all :rolleyes:), at most you'll be able to remember 3 or 4 questions and answers, out of a 120 question exam. It hardly seems worth the trouble, you know?
 
Yep, I completely agree. Last year, we had a speaker here who is an expert on academic dishonesty in medical schools. Afterwards, he asked the faculty and students how much cheating goes on. Most people responded that it was minimal if at all, but some faculty disagreed - they pointed out that students are allowed to go to the bathroom during exams, and it would be easy to have a cheat sheet or electronic device in your pocket. I'd heard of students allegedly doing that, but it seemed absurd to me. Unless you write things on your hands or something (not suspicious at all :rolleyes:), at most you'll be able to remember 3 or 4 questions and answers, out of a 120 question exam. It hardly seems worth the trouble, you know?

Can't speak for medical school, but I imagine academic cheating is more widepread than ever, considering I can hold probably 500+ full textbooks on my iphone, which is really quite small..
 
I think it happens more than we know. In undergrad, I went to go take a dump during an exam. And behold, how convenient: A campbell biology textbook propped right next to the ivory throne. I wanted to crap on the book. : )


Yep, I completely agree. Last year, we had a speaker here who is an expert on academic dishonesty in medical schools. Afterwards, he asked the faculty and students how much cheating goes on. Most people responded that it was minimal if at all, but some faculty disagreed - they pointed out that students are allowed to go to the bathroom during exams, and it would be easy to have a cheat sheet or electronic device in your pocket. I'd heard of students allegedly doing that, but it seemed absurd to me. Unless you write things on your hands or something (not suspicious at all :rolleyes:), at most you'll be able to remember 3 or 4 questions and answers, out of a 120 question exam. It hardly seems worth the trouble, you know?
 
I don't think you have a chance in hell of matching. My guess is the only reason the school's keeping you around is $$$$. You're a warm body that still qualifies for loan money. And you probably pissed some people off. Some people that don't mind screwing you over and will sit back and watch you continue to dig an unrecoverable hole for yourself.
 
I think it happens more than we know. In undergrad, I went to go take a dump during an exam. And behold, how convenient: A campbell biology textbook propped right next to the ivory throne. I wanted to crap on the book. : )

lolwut
 
:troll:

Posting same thread in multiple forums, Beware of troll.
 
I want to know what school didn't dismiss them, assuming no troll. Large assumption.
 
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Can't speak for medical school, but I imagine academic cheating is more widepread than ever, considering I can hold probably 500+ full textbooks on my iphone, which is really quite small..

but again, what are you going to do?! go to the bathroom every ten questions? it's just not feasible to make any impact on a normal sized exam.
 
haah sorry dude. i think your f*cked.. unless you are willing to beg some family med residency in kansas or middle of nowehere,s ome other state to take you bc you have since then rocked step 1 and maybe step 2 and have some othet things going for you.
i think get caught cheating = no shot of anything halfway decent. why would any residency program look at you now? they have plenty of candidates who dont have this flaw on their app. hell, some of them maybe even prefer carib students with better stats than someone who cheated (but thats just an assumption on my part)
 
lol nice try i guess

you're boned, son
 
You should really just give up.

You're done. You're toast.

The ship has sailed.... you're f*cked.

You don't deserve to do anything clinical. The implications are too severe.
 
Think about it this way: FOR SURE they will comment on your cheating in your dean's letter. FOR SURE there will be some mention of this on your permanent transcript. ALMOST FOR SURE, every faculty member that cares to know will know about your cheating since these things tend to go around and is easy to look up.

Lets look at what happens when residency directors look at your application:

Prestigious program: "I have 5x as many great applicants as interview spots. Hey look, one of these dudes is a cheater, *throws it in the trash*. That's one less application to go through"

Totally malignant unprestigious program in a run down location: "I have 5x as many foreign medical applicants as interview spots. Hey look, a random AMG applied but is a cheater, *throws it in the trash*. That's one less application to go through"

See how easy that was? If I were a PD, I would take ANY AMG or IMG over a person with a record of academic dishonesty.

If I were you, I'd withdraw and move on to another field. I think the school didn't expel you because either 1) it knows it can milk you for tuition money for the rest of time since it never expects you to match anywhere OR 2) it is being kind to you and giving you the chance to figure it out and withdraw on your own accord so you don't have an expulsion on your record too.

Either way, its over.
 
Think about it this way: FOR SURE they will comment on your cheating in your dean's letter. FOR SURE there will be some mention of this on your permanent transcript. ALMOST FOR SURE, every faculty member that cares to know will know about your cheating since these things tend to go around and is easy to look up.

Lets look at what happens when residency directors look at your application:

Prestigious program: "I have 5x as many great applicants as interview spots. Hey look, one of these dudes is a cheater, *throws it in the trash*. That's one less application to go through"

Totally malignant unprestigious program in a run down location: "I have 5x as many foreign medical applicants as interview spots. Hey look, a random AMG applied but is a cheater, *throws it in the trash*. That's one less application to go through"

See how easy that was? If I were a PD, I would take ANY AMG or IMG over a person with a record of academic dishonesty.

If I were you, I'd withdraw and move on to another field. I think the school didn't expel you because either 1) it knows it can milk you for tuition money for the rest of time since it never expects you to match anywhere OR 2) it is being kind to you and giving you the chance to figure it out and withdraw on your own accord so you don't have an expulsion on your record too.

Either way, its over.
agreed! i would withdraw and think about PA school if you still want to be in the health care field.. or continue on and graduate and only be able to do consulting of some sort.. something that does not require any letter from your med school aas a recommendation.
 
Hi. I was caught bringing in a cheat sheet into an exam in medical school. The school decided to allow me to repeat the year and put me on disciplinary probation. I am a B student. What effect will this have on residency and the future? Thanks. I would appreciate any advice.

It won't help your chances at getting a good residency. You will be fortunate to have a residency spot at all. If I were in your shoes I would either withdraw and reapply somewhere else where I could possibly have a clean record, or try for a military scholarship and by the time you graduate those suckers will be have put too much money into you to let you go.

That being said,

I personally think cheating or coming into a test with the intent to cheat is disgraceful and I am surprised your school did not expel you.
 
Yeah pretty serious. The biggest thing a PD is going to be looking for is integrity. They want people who are going to get the job done, and do it correctly. Without lying about it or doing things that may be dangerous to the patient (eg you accidentally contaminate yourself while placing a central line - you going to start over with a new kit? Or just place it and risk sepsis in the patient.)

I would have a VERY HONEST conversation about your dean of students about whether or not you can realistically attain ANY residency in the US. Do this now, before you spend 3 more years of loan money on tuition.
 
How the F do u cheat in med school, not morally, but logistically?

You'd be surprised at the number of ways students cheat. They help each other and sometimes they get help from their adviser or someone else on the faculty they've kissed up to. It pisses me off and I'm contemplating turning in a bunch of names.
 
You know as a resident who is 2 months from being finished I have been through the whole "game." I have applied for 2 state liscenses and recieved them, applied and got a job and obviously applied, matched and completed residency. Each of those steps alone have 100 questions regarding academic honesty in medical school or residency. Even if you got into residency, then a job or lisence may literally not be possible.

If you are taking loans then I really think its best to just get into another field. Learn a lesson, be thankful it was relatively early on and not later in residency or 4th year when you have a pile of loans, and just consider it a learning experience.

Best of luck-I know it could happen to anyone given the right day and circumstances.
 
It won't help your chances at getting a good residency. You will be fortunate to have a residency spot at all. If I were in your shoes I would either withdraw and reapply somewhere else where I could possibly have a clean record, or try for a military scholarship and by the time you graduate those suckers will be have put too much money into you to let you go.

That being said,

I personally think cheating or coming into a test with the intent to cheat is disgraceful and I am surprised your school did not expel you.

Wow...:rolleyes:

Yeah, turns out that the military actually is looking for honest people. I filled out a 65 page security clearance application and signed a ton of forms certifying everything from my own financial well being to my aversion to communism and male:male hand holding. Also, "Have you ever been disciplined for academic dishonesty" definitely came up. Not to mention that the military uses the UCMJ to provide real and career ending consequences for a myriad of ethical situations, such as adultery.

I suppose it isn't necessarily a "no go," but you have to interview for military residencies too. It's not like putting on a uniform = anyone off the street, regardless of their needle tracks or academic fraud, can be a brain surgeon because the dumb grunts are too stupid to care.

To the OP: It sucks, but this event makes your entire academic record suspect. Are you a B student because you cheated the whole time or because you're a B student? etc. Good luck to you. I hope you are able to figure out an appropriate plan.
 
I think people are painting a doom-and-gloom picture here which is incomplete.

There is no question that the OP has really damaged their career, but stating that it's "all over" and they have no chance is overly dramatic. More realistically:

1. The OP needs to be on their best behavior going forward, without further problems.
2. They need good grades and step scores. The stronger their application other than the academic dishonesty, the better.
3. Some fields will simply be unobtainable, regardless of what the OP does.
4. They will need to be open and honest about this in their application. Own up to the mistake, and make amends. Anything they can do to show that they have learned an important lesson will help.
5. Apply broadly. Some programs will throw your app in the trash. Some might be willing to look beyond a mistake.
6. Once you are in residency, much of this issue goes away. You might still need to report it for licenses, but by then 5+ years will have gone by and as long as you don't have further problems, you should have no problem getting a license.

So, you will now need to work harder and do better than your peers to get a spot. If your current performance in medical school is down at the bottom of your class, or if you can only imagine yourself as an orthopedic surgeon, or if there are other red flags that you are not telling us about, then yes you should consider alternative careers. If not, and you're willing to fight for it, then you can still succeed.
 
Sweet, it looks like Aprogramdirector will be willing to give you a chance at his residency!
 
Hi. I was caught bringing in a cheat sheet into an exam in medical school. The school decided to allow me to repeat the year and put me on disciplinary probation. I am a B student. What effect will this have on residency and the future? Thanks. I would appreciate any advice.

Tell us some of the things you put on the sheet. I need a laugh.
 
agreed! i would withdraw and think about PA school if you still want to be in the health care field.. or continue on and graduate and only be able to do consulting of some sort.. something that does not require any letter from your med school aas a recommendation.
Hi. If I reapply to another med school, will I have to report my disciplinary probation? What will happen with my grades? I have not been put officially on disciplinary probabtion yet. I made a stupid error in judgement. I was panicking about my finals. I was going to see a psychiatrist about my anxiety and stress. Had 4 or 5 finals in 3 days. It was the first and only time I done something like this. I didn't even need cheat sheet. Does anybody have any advice about reapplying?
 
Hi. If I reapply to another med school, will I have to report my disciplinary probation? What will happen with my grades? I have not been put officially on disciplinary probabtion yet. I made a stupid error in judgement. I was panicking about my finals. I was going to see a psychiatrist about my anxiety and stress. Had 4 or 5 finals in 3 days. It was the first and only time I done something like this. I didn't even need cheat sheet. Does anybody have any advice about reapplying?

I don't think re-applying is a good idea. Yes, you'll have to disclose that you already began med school. They'll want your records. You've seen the AMCAS application. They want to know about any school you've ever attended. If you disclose this, I think your chances of getting in are pretty low. If you choose not to disclose this and they find out, you won't get in. If they find out post-acceptance or post-matriculation, you'll be kicked out for not disclosing it during the application process.

The only way I can see re-applying working is if you drop out of the med school you're attending, then take a few years off. When you re-apply, talk about how much you've grown and changed, etc.
 
On the up side (for the OP), one of the ppl at my school got dinged for a professionalism incident and then for plagiarizing the assignment he had to do to FIX the professionalism incident.

Matched at his second choice school in surgery.

Whatever he did to explain it to all the residency programs he applied to seemed to have worked.
 
On the up side (for the OP), one of the ppl at my school got dinged for a professionalism incident and then for plagiarizing the assignment he had to do to FIX the professionalism incident.

Matched at his second choice school in surgery.

Whatever he did to explain it to all the residency programs he applied to seemed to have worked.

Professionalism incidents are smaller issues than cheating on exams though. I know at my school, professionalism concerns can be raised by random things like not showing up to enough small groups (the limit is often not known), not dressing appropriately for SP sessions, or even not turning in your course evaluations. It says in our student handbook that the school also has the option but not the obligation to mention it in the dean's letter (I am quite sure they don't bother to mention that you skipped class first year) so your friend might not have had any record of the event at all. The school does have the obligation to mention academic dishonesty such as cheating on any official report though.
 
Professionalism incidents are smaller issues than cheating on exams though. I know at my school, professionalism concerns can be raised by random things like not showing up to enough small groups (the limit is often not known), not dressing appropriately for SP sessions, or even not turning in your course evaluations. It says in our student handbook that the school also has the option but not the obligation to mention it in the dean's letter (I am quite sure they don't bother to mention that you skipped class first year) so your friend might not have had any record of the event at all. The school does have the obligation to mention academic dishonesty such as cheating on any official report though.

Well, actually, he DID have to explain it to all of the schools he interviewed at and it was in his Dean's letter.

Granted, I think the whole incident was stupid and he never should have been punished in the first place. But that's sort of a different matter.
 
Most likely, it is program dependent. Will it hurt you? Absolutely. The extent is determined by board scores, clinical grades and the personal viewpoint of cheating by program directors.

If I were a program direct, I'd trash your application immedietly if I saw you got busted trying to cheat on an exam. This is a personal thing, but for starters, with the exception of certain specialties, most programs aren't exactly hurting for applications. Even if you had a great step 1, cheating introduces a moral issue. It is medical school. You should've known by now that it is wrong. If you're willing to take a shortcut there, where else might you? Would you lie about completing cetain aspects of a H&P when you really didn't do them? What if that resulted in serious harm to the patient? You could have NEVER done that after the point you were caught, but it still introduces that "what if?" in my head. I then look over and see a stack of applicants and move on to the next.
 
Hilarious Keyzer.

But seriously, I was having this conversation with someone yesterday.

How the F do u cheat in med school, not morally, but logistically?

there's so much information, was it a ton of tiny writing, just one or two things you couldnt keep straight? or what? Cost/benefit, not in terms of being caught really, but just how many points u can gain just doesnt seem impressive enough.

It is easier than you think...many professors use similar concepts and even similar questions year after year. That is why you are not allowed to take exams home and are told not to discuss any of the questions. Well...some students from previous years will memorize questions and then give them to their friends the next year, who can jot them down on cheat sheets. Imagine you have last years exam before the test...it's a pretty good resource that not everyone has, as you will be able to foresee the question types, the concepts mostly covered, and can curtail your studying so much more efficiently.
 
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Hi. If I reapply to another med school, will I have to report my disciplinary probation? What will happen with my grades? I have not been put officially on disciplinary probabtion yet. I made a stupid error in judgement. I was panicking about my finals. I was going to see a psychiatrist about my anxiety and stress. Had 4 or 5 finals in 3 days. It was the first and only time I done something like this. I didn't even need cheat sheet. Does anybody have any advice about reapplying?

Not having that disciplinary probation on your record should be priority number one. You need to have a long talk with your dean.


Also, you could stop freaking out and accept the ****ing consequences of what you've done. Dropping out and reapplying would waste a lot more time than repeating a year and getting through everything.

We could all be wrong about you not getting a residency, especially if your boards are good. If you chose to go that route, making up a decent explanation and pointing to your board score as evidence that you know your basic sciences might not be a bad way to go.
 
OP, only aProgramdirector's opinion is valid here, since he's the only person here who is actually involved in the residency selection process.

Everyone else is merely speculating, and has no factual basis for their opinions. This is what pisses me off about SDN...someone comes in here asking for advice, and everyone gets on their moral high horse and spouts off about him having no chance, when they clearly don't know have the faintest clue about his actual chances.

I hope you guys don't practice medicine the same way you give advice.
 
I think people are painting a doom-and-gloom picture here which is incomplete.

There is no question that the OP has really damaged their career, but stating that it's "all over" and they have no chance is overly dramatic. More realistically:

1. The OP needs to be on their best behavior going forward, without further problems.
2. They need good grades and step scores. The stronger their application other than the academic dishonesty, the better.
3. Some fields will simply be unobtainable, regardless of what the OP does.
4. They will need to be open and honest about this in their application. Own up to the mistake, and make amends. Anything they can do to show that they have learned an important lesson will help.
5. Apply broadly. Some programs will throw your app in the trash. Some might be willing to look beyond a mistake.
6. Once you are in residency, much of this issue goes away. You might still need to report it for licenses, but by then 5+ years will have gone by and as long as you don't have further problems, you should have no problem getting a license.

So, you will now need to work harder and do better than your peers to get a spot. If your current performance in medical school is down at the bottom of your class, or if you can only imagine yourself as an orthopedic surgeon, or if there are other red flags that you are not telling us about, then yes you should consider alternative careers. If not, and you're willing to fight for it, then you can still succeed.

I would agree with you but if one of your residents lies to you about something important/moderately important (or anything) you would trust that person again (i.e. not be already thinking about filling out that termination paperwork)? (Breach of integrity here). If you cant trust your trainees... So in your opinion this has happed early enough that he/she has a chance of recovery?
 
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