Elijah McLain

[Man o War]

That kid could technically have been my son, if I had started in my teens. He just looks so kind. I just don't understand. His face looks so sweet and innocent as well his videos. He certainly was quirky. And no one can come here and say that "Well, he had a criminal record, or he stole some CD's" bull****, basically trying to justify what happened to him. I can't imagine what his mother went through and when she found out about no charges in January, I bed she was crushed.
This is just as bad if not worse than George Floyd. He was literally walking and minding his own business, bothering no one. No "counterfeit" $20 to call the police about. I don't remember hearing about this on the news at all when it happened. Why?
If we start turning over some rocks we are gonna find mass graves of people who should be alive today.

I am thinking the police force attracts a high number of sociopaths. And the ones who are not sociopaths, you are right. They get jaded and become cold. It's disgusting.

I am so sorry you have to live with the fear that something like this could happen to your child. This is a pathetic state of affairs for African Americans.
Do you know if it’s a practice anywhere to do psychological testing on police candidates? Seems like this might weed out some of these questionable folks.

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[chocomorsel]

I am so sorry you have to live with the fear that something like this could happen to your child. This is a pathetic state of affairs for African Americans.
Do you know if it’s a practice anywhere to do psychological testing on police candidates? Seems like this might weed out some of these questionable folks.

Yeah, unfortunately this is the fear that many of my friends with boys have about their sons. And the fear that my siblings and cousins have as well. All we can do is try to act right when the police approach us and forget we have any rights at all and most often this leads the police to back down. We can't start verbally attacking them. However, this kid seems to have had some level of discomfort about people being in his personal space and rightfully so, and he certainly tried adamantly to express that, but no one listened or cared.

We have that discussion with the males in our families about how to behave around the police when pulled over or approached. None of that "I know my rights" BS. Hands up and speak when spoken to and tell them exactly what you are about to do before you do it. Mostly it works.

I saw a female cop in the video helping the others out and in another video I have seen a female correctional officer who didn't step in and do something. (Except for that one who got fired up in Detroit 10 years ago). It's like the mother in you would step up and be like, "guys come on, yall are doing too much". But no. They are just as nonchalant as ever.

I suspect since the European countries training is alot more stringent, there may be some psychological tests involved. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[AMEHigh]

That kid could technically have been my son, if I had started in my teens. He just looks so kind. I just don't understand. His face looks so sweet and innocent as well his videos. He certainly was quirky. And no one can come here and say that "Well, he had a criminal record, or he stole some CD's" bull****, basically trying to justify what happened to him. I can't imagine what his mother went through and when she found out about no charges in January, I bed she was crushed.
This is just as bad if not worse than George Floyd. He was literally walking and minding his own business, bothering no one. No "counterfeit" $20 to call the police about. I don't remember hearing about this on the news at all when it happened. Why?
If we start turning over some rocks we are gonna find mass graves of people who should be alive today.

I am thinking the police force attracts a high number of sociopaths. And the ones who are not sociopaths, you are right. They get jaded and become cold. It's disgusting.

Yes I’ve been wondering the same thing in regards to if police have this mentality before they become police or if they’re taught it. I mean we all have biases, but what makes them behave in such a cold manner.

I think I said it in another post, but I’m sure many of us have been around mentally ill and/or belligerent patients. Not one time did I actually fear for my life that I thought I needed to kill them. So it’s such BS that they can just say they feared for their life and followed protocol by killing someone.

I haven’t actually watched the video of Elijah getting killed or George Floyd because mentally I can’t watch another person that looks like a family member get killed by the police. We were always taught how to act around the police or if stopped, but it doesn’t seem like it matters, still can get killed for nothing.

 

[deleted480308]

Yeah, unfortunately this is the fear that many of my friends with boys have about their sons. And the fear that my siblings and cousins have as well. All we can do is try to act right when the police approach us and forget we have any rights at all and most often this leads the police to back down. We can't start verbally attacking them. However, this kid seems to have had some level of discomfort about people being in his personal space and rightfully so, and he certainly tried adamantly to express that, but no one listened or cared.

We have that discussion with the males in our families about how to behave around the police when pulled over or approached. None of that "I know my rights" BS. Hands up and speak when spoken to and tell them exactly what you are about to do before you do it. Mostly it works.

I saw a female cop in the video helping the others out and in another video I have seen a female correctional officer who didn't step in and do something. (Except for that one who got fired up in Detroit 10 years ago). It's like the mother in you would step up and be like, "guys come on, yall are doing too much". But no. They are just as nonchalant as ever.

I suspect since the European countries training is alot more stringent, there may be some psychological tests involved. Thanks for the kind words.

I teach my kids the same thing, just like I was taught.
It’s not a good idea to move fast with cops. Hands clearly on the wheel, fingers splayed with your id already out, radio off, cabin interior light on, windows fully down. I am always quite clear that I will not be physically resisting even if I say I do not consent to anything. I don’t move without announcing it and getting acknowledged.

it pisses me off from a rights standpoint, but my rights don’t pull a bullet out of me so I save that crap for lawyers if they get out of hand

 

[GA8314]

True story here. When I was in 6th grade, had a friend over. My older brother (9th grade, on the wrestling team), thought he was being funny when he put my friend in a choke hold. My brother was startled when my friend went limp a moment later so he let him go. My friend fell face first onto the kitchen floor unconscious. Busted his chin open and broke his jaw. Got his chin glued and his jaw wired shut after he had to have a surgical repair of his broken mandible...

This whole story is just to remind us all that teenagers can be idiots. And if they go limp, set them down gently.

Is it safe to now refer to him as your ex-friend?

 

[abolt18]

Is it safe to now refer to him as your ex-friend?

Hahaha no, luckily no. He's a good guy.

 

[vector2]

I teach my kids the same thing, just like I was taught.
It’s not a good idea to move fast with cops. Hands clearly on the wheel, fingers splayed with your id already out, radio off, cabin interior light on, windows fully down. I am always quite clear that I will not be physically resisting even if I say I do not consent to anything. I don’t move without announcing it and getting acknowledged.

it pisses me off from a rights standpoint, but my rights don’t pull a bullet out of me so I save that crap for lawyers if they get out of hand

I would also recommend everyone own a cell phone mount which is able to face toward the driver seat and then record any and all encounters.

 

[deleted480308]

I would also recommend everyone own a cell phone mount which is able to face toward the driver seat and then record any and all encounters.

There are also apps now the upload automatically

 

[dhb]

Hahaha no, luckily no. He's a good guy.

Would you be allowed to say that if it was a girl who had got her jaw wired shut?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yes I’ve been wondering the same thing in regards to if police have this mentality before they become police or if they’re taught it. I mean we all have biases, but what makes them behave in such a cold manner.

I obviously can’t speak about every department, but I went all the way through the state police hiring process and the process with a few other departments, and there are a few police officers in my family.

The psychological testing when I applied was at every department I applied to. But it was a joke. It would have been extremely easy to fake my way through it if I was a sociopath or a power seeker.

There is also a lot of nepotism in hiring in the smaller departments. They would put out hiring notices for 2 spots and hundreds of people would apply, but it was just a show because they already knew who they were going to hire.

I know a lot of cops, and I don’t know a single one who would do anything like this. Some of them are the nicest, most gentle people I know. So I really think it’s just how these people are before they put the badge on.

I also think some of it is lack of training or an expiration of training. Many officers finish the academy and FTO and then they just do the job for however long they do it. You have to keep training and practicing. We did force protection and security forces drills every single week in the Navy, which included proper use of force in various situations and how to properly escalate and de-escalate. That repeated training seemed overkill, but it wasn’t because every encounter I had that started getting heated, I was able to keep my head and de-escalate with command presence and words where without it I may have gotten carried away with the adrenaline and used force that wasn’t necessary out of stress or fear.

In the case of Floyd’s murderer, he had a history of racism and profiling and a preexisting poor relationship with Floyd.

 

[Matty44]

Here's some experienced people's discussion of choke holds (and police training as well). Spoiler alert.....banning them is not the answer. Starts about 8:30.

Interesting stuff.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Here's some experienced people's discussion of choke holds (and police training as well). Spoiler alert.....banning them is not the answer. Starts about 8:30.

Interesting stuff.

Obviously Jocko is more experienced in this matter but I can tell you that we learned like 2 or 3 chokeholds while undergoing combatives in basic combat training and we were taught that you choke your enemy until they are dead. Not until they go limp, not until they stop struggling, but until they are dead.

 

[AMEHigh]

I obviously can’t speak about every department, but I went all the way through the state police hiring process and the process with a few other departments, and there are a few police officers in my family.

The psychological testing when I applied was at every department I applied to. But it was a joke. It would have been extremely easy to fake my way through it if I was a sociopath or a power seeker.

There is also a lot of nepotism in hiring in the smaller departments. They would put out hiring notices for 2 spots and hundreds of people would apply, but it was just a show because they already knew who they were going to hire.

I know a lot of cops, and I don’t know a single one who would do anything like this. Some of them are the nicest, most gentle people I know. So I really think it’s just how these people are before they put the badge on.

I also think some of it is lack of training or an expiration of training. Many officers finish the academy and FTO and then they just do the job for however long they do it. You have to keep training and practicing. We did force protection and security forces drills every single week in the Navy, which included proper use of force in various situations and how to properly escalate and de-escalate. That repeated training seemed overkill, but it wasn’t because every encounter I had that started getting heated, I was able to keep my head and de-escalate with command presence and words where without it I may have gotten carried away with the adrenaline and used force that wasn’t necessary out of stress or fear.

In the case of Floyd’s murderer, he had a history of racism and profiling and a preexisting poor relationship with Floyd.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
I obviously know that not all police are psychopaths. However, it does seem like there’s something in the culture of policing that obviously needs to change. There were 3 other police officer that kneeled on George Floyd and stood there doing/saying nothing while he pleaded for his life. This is not an isolated incident. I can’t imagine any other "helping" profession (firefighters, emt, nurse, doctor, etc) just standing by if a colleague was clearly injuring someone and they were pleading for their life.

Then there’s the leaks of private Facebook groups and police radio of the things that police officers say about people, specifically Black people and it’s just horrific and seems like a culture of abuse and racism IN GENERAL. Yes I know "not all cops."

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Thanks for sharing your experience.
I obviously know that not all police are psychopaths. However, it does seem like there’s something in the culture of policing that obviously needs to change. There were 3 other police officer that kneeled on George Floyd and stood there doing/saying nothing while he pleaded for his life. This is not an isolated incident. I can’t imagine any other "helping" profession (firefighters, emt, nurse, doctor, etc) just standing by if a colleague was clearly injuring someone and they were pleading for their life.

Then there’s the leaks of private Facebook groups and police radio of the things that police officers say about people, specifically Black people and it’s just horrific and seems like a culture of abuse and racism IN GENERAL. Yes I know "not all cops."

I mean multiple people were in the operating room every time Christopher Duntsch mutilated or killed someone, and the only people who stepped up were two other surgeons who saw what was going on after the fact.

It is possible that all four of those cops are racist and that it was 4 racist cops killing a black man. But the “us versus them” mentality runs really strong in the police (and “them” are suspects in general, not just black ones), and it’s also possible that they didn’t do anything because they were only thinking about being on the side of their fellow officer. Or a combination of both.

But while it isn’t an isolated incident, I think there is a temptation to conflate acceptable use of force with unacceptable use. I’m not saying you’re doing this, but especially when these things are going on, there is a tendency to view every use of force the police have with a black person as unjustified regardless of the circumstances.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Thanks for sharing your experience.
I obviously know that not all police are psychopaths. However, it does seem like there’s something in the culture of policing that obviously needs to change. There were 3 other police officer that kneeled on George Floyd and stood there doing/saying nothing while he pleaded for his life. This is not an isolated incident. I can’t imagine any other "helping" profession (firefighters, emt, nurse, doctor, etc) just standing by if a colleague was clearly injuring someone and they were pleading for their life.

Then there’s the leaks of private Facebook groups and police radio of the things that police officers say about people, specifically Black people and it’s just horrific and seems like a culture of abuse and racism IN GENERAL. Yes I know "not all cops."

Not sure if its true, but I saw something that said that 2 of the other guys involved were still on their probationary period and that the guy who actually killed Floyd was their supervising officer.

If that's true, I can definitely see not wanting to contradict what he was doing. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not sure if its true, but I saw something that said that 2 of the other guys involved were still on their probationary period and that the guy who actually killed Floyd was their supervising officer.

If that's true, I can definitely see not wanting to contradict what he was doing. Doesn't make it right, but I can understand.

If that’s true, then it wouldn’t surprise me if they were just unsure of what to do, especially if he was as aggressive and prone to violence as reports say.

 

[deleted480308]

If that’s true, then it wouldn’t surprise me if they were just unsure of what to do, especially if he was as aggressive and prone to violence as reports say.

“Training day” isn’t something you want to live out in real life

 

[Matty44]

This is brutal murder for literally no reason, jesus christ

So I think everyone can agree that the ketamine dose given by EMS was quite excessive. Can you explain what the cops did wrong exactly in this case? I've watched the bodycam footage and I'm not seeing it...

 

[crash2500]

So I think everyone can agree that the ketamine dose given by EMS was quite excessive. Can you explain what the cops did wrong exactly in this case? I've watched the bodycam footage and I'm not seeing it...

Um, ok. Why was he cuffed and arrested? He didn't do anything. You can't just go around arresting people for nothing.

As far as the argument that he was 'resisting,' you think if you're getting cuffed on the ground for doing nothing you're basic survival instinct isn't going to kick in?

 

[crash2500]

So I think everyone can agree that the ketamine dose given by EMS was quite excessive. Can you explain what the cops did wrong exactly in this case? I've watched the bodycam footage and I'm not seeing it...

Not to mention the cops purposefully dislodged their body cams.

 

[Matty44]

Um, ok. Why was he cuffed and arrested? He didn't do anything. You can't just go around arresting people for nothing.

As far as the argument that he was 'resisting,' you think if you're getting cuffed on the ground for doing nothing you're basic survival instinct isn't going to kick in?

Did you watch all the body cam video? Do you really think he was doing absolutely “nothing”? I saw cops pull up to someone identified as a “suspicious” person or whatever and ask him to stop, which he didn’t. And then they tried to talk calmly to him but he wasn’t really cooperating. Then they tried to move him out of the street to a grassy area, he resists. Then one cop says he’s trying to grab the other cops gun and so he gets taken down. What am I missing?

I’m sure he wasn’t doing anything wrong prior to the cops showing up. But the cops got a call to investigate something that someone thought was suspicious. At that point, it’s their duty to stop the person and ask some questions. Do you believe that if he stopped when the cops told him to and answered some questions calmly about what he was doing walking around at 10:30 in a ski mask that the outcome wouldn’t have been different?

 

[crash2500]

Did you watch all the body cam video? Do you really think he was doing absolutely “nothing”? I saw cops pull up to someone identified as a “suspicious” person or whatever and ask him to stop, which he didn’t. And then they tried to talk calmly to him but he wasn’t really cooperating. Then they tried to move him out of the street to a grassy area, he resists. Then one cop says he’s trying to grab the other cops gun and so he gets taken down. What am I missing?

I’m sure he wasn’t doing anything wrong prior to the cops showing up. But the cops got a call to investigate something that someone thought was suspicious. At that point, it’s their duty to stop the person and ask some questions. Do you believe that if he stopped when the cops told him to and answered some questions calmly about what he was doing walking around at 10:30 in a ski mask that the outcome wouldn’t have been different?

There was no probable cause. You can't just stop someone and physically restrain them for doing nothing. The whole 'he tried to grab your gun' line is just laughable. You think those cops can be trusted? Who is more likely to make stuff up to protect themselves? Who purposefully dislodged their body cam? That fact that you see nothing wrong with what the police did is proof that the power we have given to law enforcement is completely out of control.

 

[deleted480308]

Um, ok. Why was he cuffed and arrested? He didn't do anything. You can't just go around arresting people for nothing.

As far as the argument that he was 'resisting,' you think if you're getting cuffed on the ground for doing nothing you're basic survival instinct isn't going to kick in?

Not to mention the cops purposefully dislodged their body cams.

you don’t get to resist physically just because you disgree, that’s lawyer territory (and i’m all for crushing a bad cop with a lawyer) not grappling territory

i also missed them purposefully dislodging cams, can you time stamp that?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Did you watch all the body cam video? Do you really think he was doing absolutely “nothing”? I saw cops pull up to someone identified as a “suspicious” person or whatever and ask him to stop, which he didn’t. And then they tried to talk calmly to him but he wasn’t really cooperating. Then they tried to move him out of the street to a grassy area, he resists. Then one cop says he’s trying to grab the other cops gun and so he gets taken down. What am I missing?

I’m sure he wasn’t doing anything wrong prior to the cops showing up. But the cops got a call to investigate something that someone thought was suspicious. At that point, it’s their duty to stop the person and ask some questions. Do you believe that if he stopped when the cops told him to and answered some questions calmly about what he was doing walking around at 10:30 in a ski mask that the outcome wouldn’t have been different?

Maybe, maybe not. But I also don’t think it’s likely that the police even would have been called if he had been a white guy.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There was no probable cause. You can't just stop someone and physically restrain them for doing nothing. The whole 'he tried to grab your gun' line is just laughable. You think those cops can be trusted? Who is more likely to make stuff up to protect themselves? Who purposefully dislodged their body cam? That fact that you see nothing wrong with what the police did is proof that the power we have given to law enforcement is completely out of control.

They had a call that someone matching his description was acting suspiciously. That’s enough to stop him and ask him questions to determine whether the call was warranted or not. If the police stop you and say they want to ask you some questions because someone reported you were acting suspiciously, you just stop and talk to them. If they arrest you for no reason, you let the lawyers handle it and file a civil suit later. There is literally nothing to be gained by fighting them except an increased likelihood of someone getting hurt.

 

[crash2500]

you don’t get to resist physically just because you disgree, that’s lawyer territory (and i’m all for crushing a bad cop with a lawyer) not grappling territory

i also missed them purposefully dislodging cams, can you time stamp that?

Redirect Notice

'But if you watch the video from about the 15-minute mark (warning: the footage contains violent and upsetting content), you’ll see someone pick up the body camera and point it toward McClain and one of the officers, before dropping it back into the grass. Around 15:34, one of the officers seems to say, “Leave your camera there.”'

They clearly didn't want it filmed. There's countless stories of officers turning off their cams. Do you think this is different?

 

[deleted480308]

Redirect Notice

'But if you watch the video from about the 15-minute mark (warning: the footage contains violent and upsetting content), you’ll see someone pick up the body camera and point it toward McClain and one of the officers, before dropping it back into the grass. Around 15:34, one of the officers seems to say, “Leave your camera there.”'

They clearly didn't want it filmed. There's countless stories of officers turning off their cams. Do you think this is different?

I watched about 10minutes of it earlier and hadn’t seen that part. I wasn’t calling you a liar, just trying to verify. Thanks

 

[crash2500]

They had a call that someone matching his description was acting suspiciously. That’s enough to stop him and ask him questions to determine whether the call was warranted or not. If the police stop you and say they want to ask you some questions because someone reported you were acting suspiciously, you just stop and talk to them. If they arrest you for no reason, you let the lawyers handle it and file a civil suit later. There is literally nothing to be gained by fighting them except an increased likelihood of someone getting hurt.

I understand that. This kid was on the spectrum. Anyone can recognize that. The officers were poorly trained to deal with this. They clearly escalated the situation. But then they get to play the card 'I feared for my life.' It's literally playing both sides with no accountability.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I understand that. This kid was on the spectrum. Anyone can recognize that. The officers were poorly trained to deal with this. They clearly escalated the situation. But then they get to play the card 'I feared for my life.' It's literally playing both sides with no accountability.

Oh I agree. I also think things like this is why we need to divert funding to shore up mental health and social work officers/workers that are fit to deal with stuff like this. Because when they arrived, someone with training in that would have been able to tell something might have been a little off and they could have called in a specialist.

Police officers aren’t counselors and social workers, but they are forced to deal with those situations because they are the only ones out there. The departments that have moved toward having social workers available to respond to calls have seen a huge drop in this type of tragedy.

 

[AMEHigh]

See exactly my point. Now people are arguing that the police did nothing wrong in this case. I will admit I haven’t watched this particular video because I don’t need to see another innocent person getting killed, but come on now, if you don’t recognize the problem with policing in this country you are part of the problem. And it is not just against Black people, so I haven’t even brought race in to it, it’s the whole system.

I can’t remember if I posted the video or not, but police got a call about a mentally ill white man sleeping at a bus stop. The come armed with their weapons drawn yelling at a sleeping person. Why?

The whole system is dangerous.

 

[AMEHigh]

I mean multiple people were in the operating room every time Christopher Duntsch mutilated or killed someone, and the only people who stepped up were two other surgeons who saw what was going on after the fact.

It is possible that all four of those cops are racist and that it was 4 racist cops killing a black man. But the “us versus them” mentality runs really strong in the police (and “them” are suspects in general, not just black ones), and it’s also possible that they didn’t do anything because they were only thinking about being on the side of their fellow officer. Or a combination of both.

But while it isn’t an isolated incident, I think there is a temptation to conflate acceptable use of force with unacceptable use. I’m not saying you’re doing this, but especially when these things are going on, there is a tendency to view every use of force the police have with a black person as unjustified regardless of the circumstances.

Nope definitely not even talking about race here. I’m talking about the power dynamic that police use in general against people. Yes it is disproportionately against Black people, but I think the whole system needs an overhaul for EVERYONE, not just us Black people.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

See exactly my point. Now people are arguing that the police did nothing wrong in this case. I will admit I haven’t watched this particular video because I don’t need to see another innocent person getting killed, but come on now, if you don’t recognize the problem with policing in this country you are part of the problem. And it is not just against Black people, so I haven’t even brought race in to it, it’s the whole system.

I can’t remember if I posted the video or not, but police got a call about a mentally ill white man sleeping at a bus stop. The come armed with their weapons drawn yelling at a sleeping person. Why?

The whole system is dangerous.

I support overhauling how they do training and continued training (ie, actually have some) as well as shoring up social work and mental health counseling abilities, but I don’t think there is data to support what you are arguing. The number of cases where things happen like this is a very small percentage. The narrative that police are out there just abusing power left and right and murdering people all over the country is based on emotion and a small number of high profile cases, not actual fact.

And just for transparency, I have had two police officers stand by and watch while someone yelled Antisemitic slurs at me and threw things at me. So it’s not like I haven’t experienced anything but good stuff.

 

[Matty44]

See exactly my point. Now people are arguing that the police did nothing wrong in this case. I will admit I haven’t watched this particular video because I don’t need to see another innocent person getting killed, but come on now, if you don’t recognize the problem with policing in this country you are part of the problem. And it is not just against Black people, so I haven’t even brought race in to it, it’s the whole system.

I can’t remember if I posted the video or not, but police got a call about a mentally ill white man sleeping at a bus stop. The come armed with their weapons drawn yelling at a sleeping person. Why?

The whole system is dangerous.

Well, first of all, it’s a bit silly to criticize people’s response to a specific police interaction when you’ve not watched an ounce of footage....unless of course you have a predetermined perspective on things.

Now I totally agree that there’s a problem with police interactions in general and that more training is absolutely necessary. And it’s nice to hear someone on the left say it’s not a race issue, which is rare these days. Other people previous in this thread are pushing the race narrative about cop killings, which is unsubstantiated by the data.

I asked what specifically the police did wrong in this situation that should’ve been done differently, cause again, from watching the footage, I saw calm officers who were dealing with an uncooperative person. Should it have ended differently? Absolutely, and that’s probably 99% due to the giant slug of ketamine. Had they not done that, the guy probably gets cuffed and eventually let go once things are sorted out....maybe charged with resisting arrest.

The problem right now is that everyone jumps SO fast to racism that they don’t even look at what happened, and you end up with angry mobs and get cops like the one in the Rayshard Brooks case getting charged with murder, while unjustifiably so. And he’ll be acquitted and it will stoke more anger.

It’s VERY important to call out the specific action that you think are wrong with what a certain cop did in a certain situation if you want to see specific things change. It’s very unproductive to push a false narrative that a man who did absolutely nothing and only loved to play violins to kittens (which is totally irrelevant) was killed by cops for doing nothing. That is a wholly inaccurate description of what happened in Colorado.

 

[Matty44]

I understand that. This kid was on the spectrum. Anyone can recognize that. The officers were poorly trained to deal with this. They clearly escalated the situation. But then they get to play the card 'I feared for my life.' It's literally playing both sides with no accountability.

The officers clearly escalated the situation? Was it not the person who is not complying with a calm officer asking him to stop and let him do his job by asking a few questions that escalates the situation? And put yourself in the officers shoes for a second. If your partners yells to you “he’s reaching for your gun,” would you not feel justified in taking someone down to the ground? It’s easy to tell someone else they shouldn’t be afraid in X situation, but that’s arm chair quarterbacking at its finest to support your own view on how things should’ve played out. If an officer can’t take a person down to the ground when they are not complying with simple instructions, resisting being moved to a safer location (from the street to the grass) and are reaching for your weapon, when is that justified??? That’s why I asked, and will ask again, what specific part of the interaction should have been done differently by the cops?

You can argue that he shouldn’t have been reported as suspicious person in the first place, and you can argue that the ketamine was way too much, and even unnecessary, but I think it’s unfair to argue that this was a racist cop killing.

Unless you believe that they all orchestrated it from the start, and made up the fact that he was reaching for a cops gun, and made up the statement that he was freakishly strong while on the ground, and purposely took of their cameras during the original scuffle, and the older cop that came and said to “make sure that he can still breathe” was just saying that for cover. And they did all those things to cover up their own racist actions. But that seems like a stretch to me.

 

[crash2500]

The officers clearly escalated the situation? Was it not the person who is not complying with a calm officer asking him to stop and let him do his job by asking a few questions that escalates the situation? And put yourself in the officers shoes for a second. If your partners yells to you “he’s reaching for your gun,” would you not feel justified in taking someone down to the ground? It’s easy to tell someone else they shouldn’t be afraid in X situation, but that’s arm chair quarterbacking at its finest to support your own view on how things should’ve played out. If an officer can’t take a person down to the ground when they are not complying with simple instructions, resisting being moved to a safer location (from the street to the grass) and are reaching for your weapon, when is that justified??? That’s why I asked, and will ask again, what specific part of the interaction should have been done differently by the cops?

You can argue that he shouldn’t have been reported as suspicious person in the first place, and you can argue that the ketamine was way too much, and even unnecessary, but I think it’s unfair to argue that this was a racist cop killing.

Unless you believe that they all orchestrated it from the start, and made up the fact that he was reaching for a cops gun, and made up the statement that he was freakishly strong while on the ground, and purposely took of their cameras during the original scuffle, and the older cop that came and said to “make sure that he can still breathe” was just saying that for cover. And they did all those things to cover up their own racist actions. But that seems like a stretch to me.

Clearly we are so far apart on this, our perspectives are so different, there's no point in continuing to engage.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Clearly we are so far apart on this, our perspectives are so different, there's no point in continuing to engage.

Tbh it seems like you have a set view on this situation and are unwilling to accept or even engage with any narrative or viewpoint not aligned with your own.

 

[Matty44]

Clearly we are so far apart on this, our perspectives are so different, there's no point in continuing to engage.

Guess it's your choice, but that's unfortunate IMO. There's obviously things to be discussed regarding police in America. (see my previously posted video for a great discussion) EVERYONE agrees that the George Floyd situation was awful. MOST agree that there needs to be changes within the police force, how they are trained, how they handle certain situations, and what policies and procedures guide their actions, most importantly being, what kind of force is necessary under what circumstances? However, I find it quite counterproductive to these important discussions when every interaction is framed as "innocent black guy doing absolutely nothing murdered by racist cops!" The Elijah McClain case was not a George Floyd situation. The Rayshard Brooks case was not a George Floyd situation. Tragic as all these stories are, they are all being lumped together as evidence of something that doesn't exist when you look at the data, and not just at anecdotal stories and the MSM narrative.

 

[nimbus]

The officers clearly escalated the situation? Was it not the person who is not complying with a calm officer asking him to stop and let him do his job by asking a few questions that escalates the situation? And put yourself in the officers shoes for a second. If your partners yells to you “he’s reaching for your gun,” would you not feel justified in taking someone down to the ground? It’s easy to tell someone else they shouldn’t be afraid in X situation, but that’s arm chair quarterbacking at its finest to support your own view on how things should’ve played out. If an officer can’t take a person down to the ground when they are not complying with simple instructions, resisting being moved to a safer location (from the street to the grass) and are reaching for your weapon, when is that justified??? That’s why I asked, and will ask again, what specific part of the interaction should have been done differently by the cops?

You can argue that he shouldn’t have been reported as suspicious person in the first place, and you can argue that the ketamine was way too much, and even unnecessary, but I think it’s unfair to argue that this was a racist cop killing.

Unless you believe that they all orchestrated it from the start, and made up the fact that he was reaching for a cops gun, and made up the statement that he was freakishly strong while on the ground, and purposely took of their cameras during the original scuffle, and the older cop that came and said to “make sure that he can still breathe” was just saying that for cover. And they did all those things to cover up their own racist actions. But that seems like a stretch to me.

Nobody has alleged that Elijah McClain was breaking any laws. He is not required to answer any questions or comply.

 

[deleted480308]

Nobody has alleged that Elijah McClain was breaking any laws. He is not required to answer any questions or comply.

I’m gonna say this as probably the most ridiculously libertarian person on the forum. I’m 100% all for suing and charging a cop who improperly detains someone. 100%. But you don’t get to physically fight it, once the cop puts hands on, you calmly donwhatever you are told and let the lawyers figure it out. Society doesn’t work if they have to fist fight everyone who doesn’t agree with their detention.

 

[nimbus]

I’m gonna say this as probably the most ridiculously libertarian person on the forum. I’m 100% all for suing and charging a cop who improperly detains someone. 100%. But you don’t get to physically fight it, once the cop puts hands on, you calmly donwhatever you are told and let the lawyers figure it out. Society doesn’t work if they have to fist fight everyone who doesn’t agree with their detention.

They need more reason than suspicion to put their hands on you.

 

[nimbus]

https://www.naacp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Racial_Profiling_Know_Your_Rights_Supplement_6-12-12.pdf

 

[deleted480308]

They need more reason than suspicion to put their hands on you.

You are preaching to the choir, but that’s a lawyer argument not a fist fight.

 

[Matty44]

Your document speaks for itself I think. Is this at all how Mr McClain acted? No, no its not. Since he wasn't cooperating, he had hands placed on him, and when he did, he got more riled up, and then he allegedly reached for an officers gun, and then he ended up on the ground, and on while on the ground he continued to resist and fight. Is that not a problem in your eyes? Or was this still all the cops fault? Do you disagree that if he had stopped and spoken calmly with the officers, he would've been allowed to go away freely after a minute or two of questioning? Also, if there is a man walking around your neighborhood after dark in a ski mask, do you think its ok for the cops to stop and ask him what he's doing? More distinctly, if you personally saw someone walking around your neighborhood in a ski mask, and you called the cops and said he looked suspicious and you were concerned, would you want the cops to go check it out?

 

[Matty44]

And I'm definitely not a lawyer, but it appears that there is legal precedent for police to stop and question someone who was identified as a suspicious person. Colorado is a "stop-and-identify" state.


"Limited, temporary detention permissible though no probable cause to arrest exists. A police officer may in appropriate circumstances and in an appropriate manner approach a person for purposes of investigation of possible criminal behavior even though there is no probable cause for arrest. People v. Lucero, 182 Colo. 39, 511 P.2d 468 (1973); People v. Martineau, 185 Colo. 194, 523 P.2d 126 (1974).

There is an area of proper police procedure in which an officer having less than probable cause to arrest may temporarily detain an individual for limited purposes. People v. Marquez, 183 Colo. 231, 516 P.2d 1134 (1973); People v. Schreyer, 640 P.2d 1147 (Colo. 1982).

A temporary police detention in the nature of "field investigation" can be justified by less than probable cause for arrest. People v. Stevens, 183 Colo. 399, 517 P.2d 1336 (1973).

Police officers may make a limited stop on less than probable cause. People v. Montoya, 185 Colo. 299, 524 P.2d 76 (1974).

In certain circumstances a police officer having less than probable cause to arrest may stop an individual for identification purposes and not violate the fourth amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. People v. Mascarenas, 726 P.2d 644 (Colo. 1986)."

COCODE

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but it seems to say its fine for an officer to stop and ask you some questions when they are doing an investigation of a suspicious person.

Bottom line, comply with an officer. If they do something illegal, consult an attorney after the fact. If they abuse you, hopefully its caught on body camera and it is used against a cop in court. As a society, we need to trust cops and comply with them, assuming they are acting reasonably. Like Sb247 has mentioned, if they put their hands on you, that's not the time to ramp it up physically with the officer. It won't end well. Like I've said repeatedly, there's plenty to discuss about cop/civilian interactions, but we can't have those discussions when people think that its justified to not comply with police just because they haven't committed a crime.

I've personally been stopped by cops when I was in college and was out late one night acting "suspicious." I knew I had done nothing wrong, so I complied with them. I was asked to sit on the curb with my hands on my head for a minute or two while the cops investigated a bit. Then they questioned me. Then they let me go after their concerns were cleared up. It wasn't a super pleasant experience, but I followed orders and let the truth exonerate me. Had Elijah done similarly, I'm guessing everything would've been fine. The only way to think otherwise is to assume the cop is a horrible racist and just looking to kill a random black person for no reason. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are many people like that who exist in this day and age.

 

[nimbus]

And I'm definitely not a lawyer, but it appears that there is legal precedent for police to stop and question someone who was identified as a suspicious person. Colorado is a "stop-and-identify" state.


"Limited, temporary detention permissible though no probable cause to arrest exists. A police officer may in appropriate circumstances and in an appropriate manner approach a person for purposes of investigation of possible criminal behavior even though there is no probable cause for arrest. People v. Lucero, 182 Colo. 39, 511 P.2d 468 (1973); People v. Martineau, 185 Colo. 194, 523 P.2d 126 (1974).

There is an area of proper police procedure in which an officer having less than probable cause to arrest may temporarily detain an individual for limited purposes. People v. Marquez, 183 Colo. 231, 516 P.2d 1134 (1973); People v. Schreyer, 640 P.2d 1147 (Colo. 1982).

A temporary police detention in the nature of "field investigation" can be justified by less than probable cause for arrest. People v. Stevens, 183 Colo. 399, 517 P.2d 1336 (1973).

Police officers may make a limited stop on less than probable cause. People v. Montoya, 185 Colo. 299, 524 P.2d 76 (1974).

In certain circumstances a police officer having less than probable cause to arrest may stop an individual for identification purposes and not violate the fourth amendment prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. People v. Mascarenas, 726 P.2d 644 (Colo. 1986)."

COCODE

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but it seems to say its fine for an officer to stop and ask you some questions when they are doing an investigation of a suspicious person.

Bottom line, comply with an officer. If they do something illegal, consult an attorney after the fact. If they abuse you, hopefully its caught on body camera and it is used against a cop in court. As a society, we need to trust cops and comply with them, assuming they are acting reasonably. Like Sb247 has mentioned, if they put their hands on you, that's not the time to ramp it up physically with the officer. It won't end well. Like I've said repeatedly, there's plenty to discuss about cop/civilian interactions, but we can't have those discussions when people think that its justified to not comply with police just because they haven't committed a crime.

I've personally been stopped by cops when I was in college and was out late one night acting "suspicious." I knew I had done nothing wrong, so I complied with them. I was asked to sit on the curb with my hands on my head for a minute or two while the cops investigated a bit. Then they questioned me. Then they let me go after their concerns were cleared up. It wasn't a super pleasant experience, but I followed orders and let the truth exonerate me. Had Elijah done similarly, I'm guessing everything would've been fine. The only way to think otherwise is to assume the cop is a horrible racist and just looking to kill a random black person for no reason. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are many people like that who exist in this day and age.

I understand your points but there needs to be some allowance for socially awkward or even crazy people who have committed no crimes. Elijah didn’t read the guidelines about how to act if the police stop you for no reason. The police have tons of experience with these interactions and most of us regular people have none. The burden is on the police to deescalate and make sure no one is harmed. They had a duty to protect Elijah just as they have a duty to protect you and me.

 

[nimbus]

This was written by the husband of one of our neurosurgeons. Things could have been clarified right away but the police had no incentive to protect his rights.

 

[Matty44]

I understand your points but there needs to be some allowance for socially awkward or even crazy people who have committed no crimes. Elijah didn’t read the guidelines about how to act if the police stop you for no reason. The police have tons of experience with these interactions and most people have none. The burden is on the police to deescalate and make sure no one is harmed. They had a duty to protect Elijah just as they have a duty to protect you and me.

I agree that they have a duty to protect, for sure, and they didn’t do a great job of that. What is most confusing to me is why the officers didn’t cuff him and put him in the back of the car when he passed out temporarily after a chokehold. That’s the whole point of a correct choke hold. Subdue someone who is resisting, and when they pass out temporarily, cuff em. I don’t understand why they are still pinning him down and waiting for EMS to come bring ketamine. THAT is a legit discussion point about this case, not that the cops are racist and that this was “worse than George Floyd” or whatever was being said earlier in the thread.

 

[Matty44]

This was written by the husband of one of our neurosurgeons. Things could have been clarified right away but the police had no incentive to protect his rights.

Bad link?

 

[nimbus]

I agree that they have a duty to protect, for sure, and they didn’t do a great job of that. What is most confusing to me is why the officers didn’t cuff him and put him in the back of the car when he passed out temporarily after a chokehold. That’s the whole point of a correct choke hold. Subdue someone who is resisting, and when they pass out temporarily, cuff em. I don’t understand why they are still pinning him down and waiting for EMS to come bring ketamine. THAT is a legit discussion point about this case, not that the cops are racist and that this was “worse than George Floyd” or whatever was being said earlier in the thread.

Only the police officers know if race played a role in their actions.

 

[Matty44]

Only the police officers know if race played a role in their actions.

That’s absolutely the truth, yet it’s the front and center narrative of every story like this with usually very little, if any, supporting evidence. If an investigation is done and it comes out that the cop in question acted out of line AND he or she has some kind of history that implicated him/her as racist, THEN start discussing it. Sadly, these stories as used to stoke racial anger and divide us as a country more and more.

What’s even more concerning to me is that the gov of CO is having them redo the investigation simply on the basis that there is public outrage. I haven’t heard any implication that the first investigation was flawed in any way, or that there is any new evidence that warrants further review (correct me if I’m wrong please). Seems like the angry mob is dictating legal proceedings. That’s a bad precedent to set.