EM Residency from UQ-Oschner possible?

[MDwadup]

Hey all,

My ultimate goal is to land an Emergency Medicine residency in the US. If i have to choose between the UQ-Oschner program vs a DO school, what's my best bet? Although the UQ-Oschner has only gone through 1 match, there were no EM matches.

Thanks!

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[Phloston]

This will only half-answer your question:

I know someone who is UQ (but NOT Ochsner) who had scored 210 on Step1 and 235 on Step2 who had been unsuccessful in matching into EM.

@nybgrus might be able to help you out here because he is more up to date on Ochsner's statistics.

 

[MDwadup]

This will only half-answer your question:

I know someone who is UQ (but NOT Ochsner) who had scored 210 on Step1 and 235 on Step2 who had been unsuccessful in matching into EM.

@nybgrus might be able to help you out here because he is more up to date on Ochsner's statistics.

Gotcha, thanks for the info, man. I really appreciate it.

 

[nybgrus]

Hey all,

My ultimate goal is to land an Emergency Medicine residency in the US. If i have to choose between the UQ-Oschner program vs a DO school, what's my best bet? Although the UQ-Oschner has only gone through 1 match, there were no EM matches.

Thanks!

We will actually have some more data this match. Nobody in the first class even applied for EM. This year at least 2 or 3 of us are. And I know they are getting interviews, including in CA. I don't know anyone's personal stats nor exactly how many interviews or where (beyond the one in Cali), but I am confident we will get at least 2 EM matches this year.

As for being so certain on wanting an EM residency... try and keep an open mind. You'd be surprised where you may end up. Pigeon holing yourself can lead to a lot of job dissatisfaction. But I won't beleaguer that point.

Regarding UQ-O vs DO.... I don't think that is a question that can really be answered. Some programs are not particularly IMG friendly and some don't even interview them at all. The same for DO programs. What is the overall balance? I don't know that data exists to answer that question. To answer it we would have to know the numerator. The denominator is all EM spots. The numerator is "how many are closed or otherwise extra difficult to get for [xxx]" We know that some are closed or more difficult for both IMG and DO, but we don't know exactly how big each number is to actually make a comparison. I suppose you could do a lot of research to try and come up with a rough approximation, but I dunno if it is worth it.

Now, if there are specific programs or states that you are especially interested in that may help narrow it down and give you a better idea. If you REALLY want to go to programs [x,y,z] then you can research them and see if they are historically IMG or DO friendly (or unfriendly) and that may help you. Depending on what state you may be able to do all the programs in the state.

All that said, whatever you do come up with will always be, at best, a rough approximation because you can't know whether a program that has never had an IMG or DO is because they are really anti-IMG/DO or because so few actually apply or of those that do apply they happen to be poorly qualified. You also do not know how changes in leadership may affect those realities in the intervening 4 or 5 years before you actually get there.

TL;DR: A long winded way of saying nobody can really say what the best bet is and it depends on what your exact goals are.

 

[MDwadup]

We will actually have some more data this match. Nobody in the first class even applied for EM. This year at least 2 or 3 of us are. And I know they are getting interviews, including in CA. I don't know anyone's personal stats nor exactly how many interviews or where (beyond the one in Cali), but I am confident we will get at least 2 EM matches this year.

As for being so certain on wanting an EM residency... try and keep an open mind. You'd be surprised where you may end up. Pigeon holing yourself can lead to a lot of job dissatisfaction. But I won't beleaguer that point.

Regarding UQ-O vs DO.... I don't think that is a question that can really be answered. Some programs are not particularly IMG friendly and some don't even interview them at all. The same for DO programs. What is the overall balance? I don't know that data exists to answer that question. To answer it we would have to know the numerator. The denominator is all EM spots. The numerator is "how many are closed or otherwise extra difficult to get for [xxx]" We know that some are closed or more difficult for both IMG and DO, but we don't know exactly how big each number is to actually make a comparison. I suppose you could do a lot of research to try and come up with a rough approximation, but I dunno if it is worth it.

Now, if there are specific programs or states that you are especially interested in that may help narrow it down and give you a better idea. If you REALLY want to go to programs [x,y,z] then you can research them and see if they are historically IMG or DO friendly (or unfriendly) and that may help you. Depending on what state you may be able to do all the programs in the state.

All that said, whatever you do come up with will always be, at best, a rough approximation because you can't know whether a program that has never had an IMG or DO is because they are really anti-IMG/DO or because so few actually apply or of those that do apply they happen to be poorly qualified. You also do not know how changes in leadership may affect those realities in the intervening 4 or 5 years before you actually get there.

TL;DR: A long winded way of saying nobody can really say what the best bet is and it depends on what your exact goals are.

Ha gotcha. Yeah I guess the next couple of UQ match lists would be somewhat telling. Thanks for the detailed input!

 

[DrP2014]

Hi,
I'm one of the ochsner cohort that applied to EM this year. I came across this and felt I should chime in. I definitely think an EM residency spot is possible if you do this program. This year there are 3 (4 but one may stay in aus) who applied to EM. On average I'd say we all got around 7 interviews. While that's not much when you compare the amount of interviews that US students get, I think once more residency programs know about UQ/Ocshner a lot more doors will open. With that being said, myself and other EM applicants have gotten interviews at programs like - Cook County, George Washington, Hopkins, UCSF, Fresno and Christiana. So even though we don't have 14/15 interviews we've gotten invitations from some top programs! Last year there was a traditional (4 year) UQ student who matched to UC Davis for EM. In addition to interviewing at some of the places mentioned before, he interviewed at Hennepin, Utah, Yale and UC Davis (obviously). So I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that EM is very possible if you decide on UQ/Ochsner. I feel pretty confident in our chances of matching as we've all gotten very good feedback from program directors. Now if you're heart is set on going to a specific program that doesn't traditionally take IMG's then I'd say go DO.
I hope this helped

Hey all,

My ultimate goal is to land an Emergency Medicine residency in the US. If i have to choose between the UQ-Oschner program vs a DO school, what's my best bet? Although the UQ-Oschner has only gone through 1 match, there were no EM matches.

Thanks!

,,

 

[Phloston]

Hi,
I'm one of the ochsner cohort that applied to EM this year. I came across this and felt I should chime in. I definitely think an EM residency spot is possible if you do this program. This year there are 3 (4 but one may stay in aus) who applied to EM. On average I'd say we all got around 7 interviews. While that's not much when you compare the amount of interviews that US students get, I think once more residency programs know about UQ/Ocshner a lot more doors will open. With that being said, myself and other EM applicants have gotten interviews at programs like - Cook County, George Washington, Hopkins, UCSF, Fresno and Christiana. So even though we don't have 14/15 interviews we've gotten invitations from some top programs! Last year there was a traditional (4 year) UQ student who matched to UC Davis for EM. In addition to interviewing at some of the places mentioned before, he interviewed at Hennepin, Utah, Yale and UC Davis (obviously). So I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that EM is very possible if you decide on UQ/Ochsner. I feel pretty confident in our chances of matching as we've all gotten very good feedback from program directors. Now if you're heart is set on going to a specific program that doesn't traditionally take IMG's then I'd say go DO.
I hope this helped

,,

Do you mind me asking the (anonymous) Step1 and 2CK performances of you and your colleagues in relation to where the interviews were granted?

 

[Phloston]

@nybgrus, have you received any updates as far as the Ochsner USMLE stats of those who recently took the exam (MS3s)? It's reasonable that those having scored lower might not disclose their outcomes, but you tend to be the go-to guy for behind the scenes stuff, so I wasn't sure if you've come across any info.

 

[nybgrus]

@nybgrus, have you received any updates as far as the Ochsner USMLE stats of those who recently took the exam (MS3s)? It's reasonable that those having scored lower might not disclose their outcomes, but you tend to be the go-to guy for behind the scenes stuff, so I wasn't sure if you've come across any info.

No, I haven't really heard anything. Since I graduated I am significantly less plugged in with the current students directly, particularly the 3rd years. I am still pretty involved overall, but primarily with licensing issues and state medical board stuff. I put out some feelers but haven't gotten much of a sense of it. I think it is tougher to get a gestalt these days because the 3rd years number in the 80's so the smattering of things you hear is not nearly as representative. Overall though, I've been told is that the impression is largely the same as previous years with probably some gains on all fronts. People still are deferring the exam till after Year 3 starts which is generally a huge mistake, but I don't know the percentages (though I was told it is probably roughly steady at around 10ish%). The average score is entirely elusive, but we have every reason to expect it would be a bit higher on average. I would very much like solid numbers and a stdev, but to the best of my knowledge that data is not available yet (not even to me, though admittedly I haven't hounded anyone for it).

So... a whole lot of not much, but maybe some promising results. Sorry I can't be of more help.

What will be particularly interesting is the match results for this year. The largest class to match so far, with a number of strong candidates but also a few people who, shall we say, may be aiming higher than would be objectively warranted. I've heard a mix of things on that front, mostly positive, though not representative to really have a good feel on things. Only time will tell.

 

[reets]

I was reading a current forum and noticed you are attending UQ-O. I applied last year but decided to hold off since I wasnt ready but I am thinking of applying this year. My only concern is the issue of CA and accreditation. How is the process going? And in general, how do you guys like UQ-O? I recently got an acceptance into a good SMP in the states but I am not sure if this is the best choice (I have a 3.7 gpa and am currently studying to retake the MCAT). Thank you!

 

[neulite30]

My only concern is the issue of CA and accreditation

I'm actually curious about what this means. Over the years I've read various posts regarding "accreditation", or lack thereof, for the UQ-O program.

Seeing as I'm a UQ graduate and have (just about) been through the residency application process, I'm curious what relevance this has. The University of Queensland is recognized by the ECFMG. That's all that matters.

However, I could be missing something, as California does require a slightly separate application process (i.e. PTAL or "California Letter"). The state still utilizes ERAS though, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[edgerock24]

@nybgrus will likely be the only one who can give an update regarding UQ-O's California/New York accreditation status.

 

[nybgrus]

@nybgrus will likely be the only one who can give an update regarding UQ-O's California/New York accreditation status.

So this one is a bit complicated and likely requires a bit of backstory. I will give the very abridged version, so if it is insufficient for your needs look up my previous posts or just ask a more specific question and I will be happy to help.

CA and NY must be taken separately. CA is the easier one and the one I know most about (I ranked Cedars-Sinai #1 and am hoping to match there and start in July).

CA:

Yes, UQ is approved and has been for decades. However, section 1314 of the rules and regs allows the MBC to basically decide whatever the heck they want in regards to the program. Specifically it requires separate approval on "The List" for any program whose primary purpose is to produce interns for a country other than the country of the degree granting institution (a la Caribs). In every technical and legal aspect the UQO program does NOT fit this characterization, but it is undeniable that the UQO "stream" (for lack of a better word since in every sense it is not a separate "program") is geared to do exactly that. The MBC decided that the UQO "stream" would be treated separate from the general UQ "stream" (which @neulite30 is a part of) and thus require a separate approval. They then required a site visit for final approval, essentially implying that you could take a program like UQ and an institution like Ochsner (which are approved and Ochsner trains LSU and Tulane students) and combine the two and somehow come up with a LESS qualified graduate. In particular the implication is that they could somehow discover something on their site visit (to Ochsner, not UQ) that would disqualify us. In other words, a lot of bureaucratic BS, but it must be followed through. There is absolutely no question that the approval will happen, once the site visit and paperwork are done, which is why I am still campaigning to get over to Cedars. The timing of the site visit is unfortunate (but not insurmountable) for me, but should not be an issue whatsoever for any following class. In speaking with the MBC and the Ochsner admin/faculty the visit is locked in for 3rd week of March and the plan is to have the whole thing done up for the May 1 MBC quarterly meeting at which time the board will render a decision. The board has agreed to accept all of my documents and essentially "pend" my PTAL until that decision is rendered and, if in the affirmative, will grant my PTAL immediately. That is why I think I will be fine to start residency in July in CA.

Regardless, for anyone in the year behind me it will almost certainly be a complete non-issue and the further out from grad you are the more absolutely certain it will be. Part of the reason you can bank on this is because IF the MBC were to somehow render a decision in the negative (and I have off-the-record comments from the MBC themselves that this is unlikely to be the case, but of course no guarantees whatsoever) that would mean that either UQ or Ochsner is sub-par. Which means that UQ grads like neulite30 will be barred or that LSU and Tulane students who rotate at Ochsner will be barred which is, of course, ludicrous.

NY:

I need to preface this by saying that I do not know all the details as well as CA since I wasn't interested in going to NY and as such I have not had a direct update on goings-on since around Sept/Oct of last year. Things may have changed or improved since then and I wouldn't know.

Much more complicated. This stems from the "12 week rule" which was entirely designed to prevent the for-profit Caribs from usurping spots for NY students. Basically they made it so that you had to be on their "The List" so that random places couldn't just pay boatloads of money to hospitals in NY to guarantee rotating spots and displace NY med students (which was happening). Once again from a purely technical and legal standpoint this shouldn't affect UQO since Ochsner is a clinical school under UQ's AMC accreditation making it sort of like an embassy. Anyways, apparently NY decided that we do actually violate the "12 week rule" and that we would need approval there as well. The process has been under way with Ochsner putting a $40kUSD downpayment for the process. The weird thing is that in NY this process is not handled by the NY medical board but by the NY Dept of Education (which I found really strange when I learned about that). Of course there is a position that is in charge of such things. Things were progressing nominally until sometime around late summer of last year, when the person who was in that position left it for another job. The last I heard (Sept/Oct 2013) the position had been empty for a couple of months and nobody from the NY Dept of Education had been responding to inquiries from UQO. Once again, just like CA there is absolutely no reason to believe that the UQO stream wouldn't be approved and put on the list, it is just a matter of when and getting through the paperwork. I do not know the specific of the process like I do the CA process, nor do I know what progress has been made since Oct of last year. At that time it was guesstimated that there would be about another 12-18 months before it was all buttoned up, but that was just a rough guess. And, of course, it depended on someone being in that job title to actually do it.

So for people in the year behind me NY may not be an option. The year behind is a decent chance, and anyone currently in Year 1 or 2 (or not yet started the program) will most likely be fine.

Other than those two states there is no other issue with residency or licensure in the US that I am aware of.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

TL;DR:

CA will not be a problem for anyone starting next year and I still have decent hopes I'll end up there this year. NY is a definite no go for at least 1 more year, possibly more, but maybe less and I have not been up to speed on that since Oct of 2013.

 

[neulite30]

Keep in mind that there are 48 other states (49, if you count D.C. as a separate vicinity in which to complete residency).

 

[qldking]

Keep in mind that there are 48 other states (49, if you count D.C. as a separate vicinity in which to complete residency).

And only about 2 of them are livable.

 

[nybgrus]

Keep in mind that there are 48 other states (49, if you count D.C. as a separate vicinity in which to complete residency).

Quite true. And also, CA is simply harder to get residency in PERIOD. There is a glut of people wanting to get into CA for many reasons that are independent of the programs themselves. Competitive places like Cedars are also particularly tough. I applied for IM and they had 2,800 applicants for this season. I would reckon at least some of that is because (like me) people want to live in good weather and by the beach (I am a surf and ski bum, having grown up in SoCal). I believe it is easier to get a fellowship and easier still to get a job as an attending somewhere in CA than it is to get residency there.

From my experience dealing with the MBC and watching the MBC (if you want a cure for insomnia, watching MBC meetings is better than zolpidem!) they are essentially institutionally stacked to make it hard to get into CA, particularly for IMGs.

The reality is that Ochsner is my #2 rank and I would actually be happy staying here as well. I would just be a bit more happy being back home is all. Particularly if you are interested in a surgical specialty Ochsner is quite good - the hospital was founded by surgeons and the surgical program is "top dog." At Cedars the medicine program is "top dog" which is why I would tend to prefer their program over Ochsner's. That said, as with everything in life (including and especially med school) you are more important than where you train. Sure, there are certainly some places that offer particular perks that are nice or have a program more geared to what you want to do (for example, I didn't even rank Cook County General because they are not geared for ICU time and I am 100% set on pulm/cc), there are a few standouts in each field and a few places to avoid like the plague, but for the most part everything is fairly tightly distributed around the middle (much like med school). Regardless of where you end up, kicking ass and taking names will get you where you want to go. You just may have to take a more circuitous route to get there, but as long as you capitalize on opportunities along the way the only thing you can say about it at the end will be that it was different rather than better or worse. (IMHO and FWIW).

 

[nybgrus]

I heard a rumor, completely unsubstantiated, that all 3 of the class that applied for EM matched. Hopefully that stands up when the official stats are released.