epidural possibly leading to autism paper

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GaseousClay

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looks like JAMA accepted this nonsense kaiser study.


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Why don't they ever investigate things like terrible ob nursing causing autism
 
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Looks like a great reference to pull out between midnight and 6am.
 
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Looks like a great reference to pull out between midnight and 6am.
100%.

Some people make a lot of money on these things.

But for some of us, they are a huge pain in the arse.

Our OB deck ORs were out of environmental regs and the CRNA that was covering calls me (I was covering the MOR) and said they were bringing an urgent section up to us. I asked, “does the epidural work?” They say - “sure works great! “ The resident I was working with was on the OB deck all day and says “that epidural isn’t working great. In fact, I’m not sure it works.” Ugh. What a headache.
 
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So...do we know for sure that the mothers didn't have autism? If we are to believe what the study is suggesting, that epidural local anesthetic infusions cause changes in fetal brain development postpartum, shouldn't we first examine whether or not the mothers had autism? You know, autism, the disorder that is generally suspected to have a strong genetic component? Autism, the kind of disorder that is embodied by ineffective self-regulation that might lead some to scream for an epidural when they're 1cm dilated?
 
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So...do we know for sure that the mothers didn't have autism? If we are to believe what the study is suggesting, that epidural local anesthetic infusions cause changes in fetal brain development postpartum, shouldn't we first examine whether or not the mothers had autism? You know, autism, the disorder that is generally suspected to have a strong genetic component? Autism, the kind of disorder that is embodied by ineffective self-regulation that might lead some to scream for an epidural when they're 1cm dilated?
I agree with you. I don't an epidural in for 3-6 hrs is going to do anything. But I've seen some run for more than a day. I think it's life the 2 hit hypothesis for nerve damage. Crazy mom who got the epidural at 0 cm coupled with a good bit of local anesthetic could cause bad things to happen for the fetal brain
 
I agree with you. I don't an epidural in for 3-6 hrs is going to do anything. But I've seen some run for more than a day. I think it's life the 2 hit hypothesis for nerve damage. Crazy mom who got the epidural at 0 cm coupled with a good bit of local anesthetic could cause bad things to happen for the fetal brain


That’s not what they are saying.

They’re saying moms with autism may be more likely than other laboring mothers to get a labor epidural. Since autism is at least partly hereditary, children of mothers with autism are more likely to be diagnosed with autism. They are saying we should look at the laboring mothers who get labor epidurals to see if they have a higher incidence of autism.
 
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I agree with you. I don't an epidural in for 3-6 hrs is going to do anything. But I've seen some run for more than a day. I think it's life the 2 hit hypothesis for nerve damage. Crazy mom who got the epidural at 0 cm coupled with a good bit of local anesthetic could cause bad things to happen for the fetal brain
Were you having a stroke while typing this?
 
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Sorry for not write that very clearly.

What I'm saying is that an epidural in place for a few hours likely will not have any effect on the baby.

Perhaps a longer infusion will also not have any effect on a normal patient.

But combining a very long infusion like over 12 hrs with a predisposed patient could increase the chance of a baby having autism. By predisposed i mean a patient who can't tolerate labor when they are not yet in active labor and request an epidural very early.
 
Someone needs to publish a crap study showing that autism rates increase when a C-section is performed between the hours of 9pm and 6am.
 
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All I'm hearing is epidurals give the mum autism. It's this true?
 
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Epidurals do not cause autism in Canuckistan. They only cause autism south of the border. Maternal consumption of Tim Hortons coffee is protective of the deleterious effects of epidurals.

The Kaiser paper does make some good points in its discussion.

“The relative risk associated with LEA exposure estimated in our study was higher than in population studies from Manitoba, Canada (HR, 1.08)6; Denmark (HR, 1.05)7; British Columbia, Canada (HR, 1.09)8; the US, using insurance records (HR, 1.08)9; and Ontario, Canada (HR, 1.14).10 There are large population, access to care, and practice differences that may explain these varied results. For example, there are substantial differences in LEA exposure rates between cohorts. The LEA exposure rate was 38% in Manitoba,6 19% in Denmark,7 29% in British Columbia,8 53% in US insurance records,9and 64% in Ontario.10 Exposure to LEA was 74.7% in our cohort, which is the highest among the large cohort studies. Kaiser Permanente Southern California provides LEA upon patient’s request at any time with no additional cost, which may facilitate easy access. We used both anesthesia procedure notes and pharmacy records from EMRs to obtain data on LEA exposure, which we believe captured LEA exposure more completely than administrative data sources. Our LEA rate is in agreement with current reports from high-income countries and is similar to the rate reported in the 2020 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention National Vital Statistics (77.1%).26 There are also differences in the rates of ASD. In each study reporting ASD rates by LEA exposure, rates were higher in children exposed to LEA than those unexposed6,8-10; however, ASD rates in both the exposed and unexposed groups were higher in the KPSC cohort than in any of the previous studies (LEA exposure: 2.7%; no LEA exposure: 1.9%). At KPSC, children were screened for developmental issues at age 18 months and diagnoses were made by developmental specialists. We extracted the ASD diagnosis based on coding with at least 2 different encounters visits and the validity has been established in previous studies.19-21

The findings of this study suggest that previously reported ASD risk associated with oxytocin exposure14,15 was not independent of LEA exposure, and there may be a synergistic association between oxytocin and LEA exposure and a child’s ASD risk. Oxytocin is commonly used to induce or augment labor. Oxytocin administration may strengthen uterine contractions or hyperstimulation and labor pain, requiring early LEA intervention.27 Although the cohort design of this study does not allow causal evaluation, our data on LEA exposure and oxytocin use are consistent with previous reports that concurrent exposure to oxytocin and LEA is common.28-30 Further studies are needed to confirm our study findings and reveal biological links before making conclusions.”
 
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The important part is formulating your response to the anxious mother who says "I heard a paper in JAMA said this can increase my child's risk of autism, is this true?"
 
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The important part is formulating your response to the anxious mother who says "I heard a paper in JAMA said this can increase my child's risk of autism, is this true?"
Good luck pushing that turkey out your jacksie
 
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The important part is formulating your response to the anxious mother who says "I heard a paper in JAMA said this can increase my child's risk of autism, is this true?"


Depends on time of day.

Could be anything from, “several other studies dispute those results” to “wow, that sounds really serious.”
 
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I got a little rule I've developed over the last few years. If the patient puts up resistance to a treatment plan, and there's a way out of it, I take it... they are the ones with every complication possible
 
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LOL ok ok...everyone knows this study is garbage. But to the VIP's wife who's natural hot tub birth is a little too painful for her and now wants an epidural but their doula told them all these things about how it will affect their child 'and it's published in JAMA!'
It's easy to be shrewd just like it's easy for the VIP to be shrewd about funding your department's next equipment/tech expansion/keep-our- practice in business stipend. This study is scientific garbage, but it will get out to the lay person because it's in a respected journal, the most shameful part of this is JAMA published it.
And I agree I'd say this is what the study showed, here are my doubts, the decision is yours...and that turkey ain't coming out :rofl:
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
First Tylenol causes autism. Now epidurals.

Why they keep publishing garbage papers which are basically a feeding ground for late night lawyer ads is beyond me?

Why are these doofuses that desperate to publish this crap?

Why is JAMA publishing papers like this with tenuous results at best which contradict several other papers?

The Ob on the study (Feldman) and one of the researchers ( Xiang) have now published 3 articles on risk factors for autism in JAMA. Two looking at epidural use. The other one in 2018 looking at diabetes and autism risk.

Why this unknown generalist OB is getting this type of play in a major journal? This is not making sense to me.

These feel like research studies where someone is throwing $hit to the wall to see what sticks. Honestly, these population based studies are low hanging fruit. I should know because I used the NSQIP database to publish some garbage as a fellow.

What next, does the month a kid is born in increase their risk of autism?
 
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Labor epidural anesthesia is a medically “unnecessary” expense for an organization like Kaiser, but they have to offer it because their customers demand it. Erosion of confidence in the safety of LEA reduces that demand and increases profit margins.

I would be surprised if they WEREN’T making every effort to reduce labor epidural utilization.
 
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Depending on your volume, epidurals can actually be a big money maker, not a drain.
Sure. This can be true in a fee-for-service setup.

I don’t believe that is usually the case for Kaiser, except that they would lose plan participants (premiums) if they didn’t offer epidurals for childbirth.

You also see pushback on epidurals in some government payor health systems. In many countries, only those who can afford private insurance get epidurals at private hospitals. Those who are on the government plan have to tough it out.
 
Labor epidural anesthesia is a medically “unnecessary” expense for an organization like Kaiser, but they have to offer it because their customers demand it. Erosion of confidence in the safety of LEA reduces that demand and increases profit margins.

I would be surprised if they WEREN’T making every effort to reduce labor epidural utilization.

Maybe it’s just an OB trying to get lots of sleep at night (and screw us over) by defending induction of labor. OBs want to induce everyone at night so they can do all deliveries in the morning (and we get screwed by doing all epidurals at night ideally).
Articles come out tying induction of labor to autism. OB needs to say it’s not the induction, it’s the epidural so they can continue to force as many deliveries as possible to occur on their schedule not nature’s.
 
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From the paper.

“The LEA exposure rate was 38% in Manitoba,6 19% in Denmark,7 29% in British Columbia,8 53% in US insurance records,9and 64% in Ontario.10 Exposure to LEA was 74.7% in our cohort, which is the highest among the large cohort studies. Kaiser Permanente Southern California provides LEA upon patient’s request at any time with no additional cost, which may facilitate easy access.”

Maybe the author was sick of doing all those epidurals.
 
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Maybe it’s just an OB trying to get lots of sleep at night (and screw us over) by defending induction of labor. OBs want to induce everyone at night so they can do all deliveries in the morning (and we get screwed by doing all epidurals at night ideally).
Articles come out tying induction of labor to autism. OB needs to say it’s not the induction, it’s the epidural so they can continue to force as many deliveries as possible to occur on their schedule not nature’s.

How does the timing of the induction matter? It's whether they are getting induced or not that matters.

Induction rates are increasing but patients are sicker/fatter etc so there are more indications to reduce morbidity etc.
 
How does the timing of the induction matter? It's whether they are getting induced or not that matters.

Induction rates are increasing but patients are sicker/fatter etc so there are more indications to reduce morbidity etc.
It matters for their scheduling preferences, not medically. Bringing moms in to start induction overnight leads to more deliveries during convenient daytime hours. Starting induction mid day leads to more deliveries overnight.
 
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Not sure about the bunk paper, but just wanted to say that in my PP job OB's like to have their inductions come in at 2-3am, which seems to work out great. Most don't want an epidural before 6am. Most happen between 7am and noon, deliver by 3-4pm, everyone is happy.

In residency where we did 3-5 inductions each and every night the first one would come in at 7pm and they staggered them by 45 minutes so it was a healthy crushing blow of at minimum 3-4 epidurals from 2am-6am. Most nights closer to 6-7.
 
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