ethical considerations for animal research

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

mrcdsbenz2000

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
39
Reaction score
0
Hi all,
I have recently been exposed to a lot of opposition against animal research and was wondering what everyones thoughts were. Do you think its right that we exploit other forms of life for the benefit of our own? How would/do you defend it? An interesting statistic that I heard was that over some 5 recent years in the US, approx. 18 million animals were used for research/year. Over the same 5 years, the age-adjusted death rate only decreased by 24,000/year. So if you look at it purely from a medicine/disease related standpoint thats 750 animals/human life. Just a thought :)

Members don't see this ad.
 
mrcdsbenz2000 said:
Hi all,
I have recently been exposed to a lot of opposition against animal research and was wondering what everyones thoughts were. Do you think its right that we exploit other forms of life for the benefit of our own? How would/do you defend it? An interesting statistic that I heard was that over some 5 recent years in the US, approx. 18 million animals were used for research/year. Over the same 5 years, the age-adjusted death rate only decreased by 24,000/year. So if you look at it purely from a medicine/disease related standpoint thats 750 animals/human life. Just a thought :)

It depends on what you are doing I suppose.

People only seem to care about things that are furry.

Nobody sheds a tear over the dead fruit fly.
 
I take a middle position. It is very important for animal research to proceed in the biomedical arena. I think that animal rights activists have been useful in pushing agenda to force researchers to be more responsible. This includes the formation of institutional review boards that have to be consulted prior to research (this board is made up of a variety of individuals from the community, not just doctors and scientists).

We have an obligation to minimize the pain and suffering of all test animals, particularly mammals and non-human primates.

Your statsitic is interesting and highlights and important fact: Funding medical research is NOT cost efficient. Much of the research expands our knowledge base (basic research) rather than providing direct therapeutic applications (applied/translational research). This is why pharma companies don't do much basic research -- b/c it ain't profitable.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Animal research has historically provided real, tangible benefits for humanity in terms of understanding and treating disease.

We now even have animal models for previously scientifically and clinically intractable diseases, such as diabetes, dementia, depression, cancer, etc that can be used to test treatments for these conditions.

The field of surgery has also benefited greatly from animal research. Experimental procedures first are tested in animal models and then can be applied to human conditions.

When done in an ethically responsible manner (i.e. minimizing pain and suffering, distress, etc), the vast the public has strongly supported animal research. It is quite disturbing when animal rights activists, who I believe do have good intentions, spread false information about how animal research is conducted. We, as scientists, need to be proactive in educating the public about how animals are actually used in research and the benefits this research brings.
 
I'm a little new to the topic but from the researchers that I've talked to it is now much harder to get ok'ed to use animals in experiments due to new regulations.

Is this true?
 
I don't think its harder to get the ok to use animals per se, but just more strict on how certain procedures are performed. I work in a very animal intensive lab (both rodents and primates) and we are VERY cautious about conforming to NIH and AALAC guidlines. But as far as writing grants, I think that just making sure that all procedures are humane is sufficient. Most reviewers understand that biomedical research requires animals by its very nature.

On a side note, I kinda enjoy speaking with animal research activists and asking them if they take ANY FDA approved medication.....tylenol for a HA for example. You'd be suprised how many people are unaware of how many animals die every year just in the process of drug approval.
 
Ecthgar said:
On a side note, I kinda enjoy speaking with animal research activists and asking them if they take ANY FDA approved medication.....tylenol for a HA for example. You'd be suprised how many people are unaware of how many animals die every year just in the process of drug approval.

Yep, in fact in the ARB offices at UAB there are several posters of protesters screaming out against various labs with a caption that reads, "Thanks to animal research, these protestors can protest 11 years longer."
 
well, if life span has increased by 10 years since 1900 and there have been roughly 10 billion people around since then, then scientific advancements have added 100 billion years to human life in the past 100 years. That's a lot of extra life. Add on top of that the improvement in quality of life.

I've always found research to be very humane to animals. Most times, animals are treated better in a lab than they would be as pets.
 
mrcdsbenz2000 said:
Hi all,
I have recently been exposed to a lot of opposition against animal research and was wondering what everyones thoughts were. Do you think its right that we exploit other forms of life for the benefit of our own? How would/do you defend it? An interesting statistic that I heard was that over some 5 recent years in the US, approx. 18 million animals were used for research/year. Over the same 5 years, the age-adjusted death rate only decreased by 24,000/year. So if you look at it purely from a medicine/disease related standpoint thats 750 animals/human life. Just a thought :)

Another point to be made. Many in the animal rights community will claim that computer "models" can be used as a substitute for many types of animal testing. The problem is that computer models are not optimized enough to develop a new therapeutic agent with yet, although computer modeling IS used to assist in the drug discovery process.

Also, for drug approval, the FDA REQUIRES some animal testing, such as toxicology and ADME studies, usually in rodents and non-rodents. And as a previous poster pointed out, you need some type of guidance from animal studies to make choices in terms of new chemical entities that are going forward for clinical development. Otherwise....you run into the ethical problem of treating humans without any previous supportive animal data.
 
Personally, I have a really hard time reconciling my views on animal research, especially with primates. I understand the necessity of animal research, but at the same time, this has caused much suffering for animals that undoubtedly can have emotions.
 
I feel that research on animals that could potentially lead to therapeutics is OK, as long as there are restrictions. Cosmetic testing (like the old Revlon on rabbits) feels wrong; if it's something optional and cosmetic, they should try it on human volunteers.

And another thing, some of the restrictions seem ridiculous and actually counterproductive. I worked in a lab in which we used mice, and the convention is to gas them with CO2; oftentimes, it's hard watching them suffocate, coughing and twitching.

In contrast, the standard method used to be (so I have heard), and still is in many parts of the world, simply cervical dislocation, breaking the neck. Allegedly it is painless and quick (but a bit more icky for the experimentalist). However, as far as I know, it's not allowed anymore, except for labs that study the respiratory system, for obvious reasons.
 
Fermata said:
Are you required to have some kind of documentation to prove that you are treating the animals humanely?

I'm just curious.


The institutional AALAC committee must first OK your animal use protocol before starting any experiments associated with a particular grant. At my institution, we also have the "AALAC Police" who sometimes lurk around going into labs randomly checking for improper animal handling/use.

Also, cervical dislocation and decapitation are still used....however, most animals must be deeply anesthetized with haolthane or pentobarb first. Not sure how the resp phys guys handle this, but that is how we do it in neuroscience. Perfusion is also used very often when RNA/DNA is not needed....ie anatomical studies.
 
mrcdsbenz2000 said:
An interesting statistic that I heard was that over some 5 recent years in the US, approx. 18 million animals were used for research/year. Over the same 5 years, the age-adjusted death rate only decreased by 24,000/year. So if you look at it purely from a medicine/disease related standpoint thats 750 animals/human life. Just a thought :)

Not trying to hate on the OP, but I think that comparing a reduction in the death rate to the number of animals "used" in research over the same course of time cannot result in any meaningful conclusion. Medical research may not be the sole reason that death rate decreases, and it's certainly not true that the medical research being conducted during the five years that lab. animals were counted could have had any effect on the population during that time. If anything, the medical research from something like 10 years before, having gone through animal studies and finally human trials, might have its effects during that 5 yr period but it just doesn't make sense to think that research being done on animals could ever be improving the general public's health at the same time.

The statistic also fails to appreciate the fact that the successes of research are not necessarily continuous with time. Instead, there may be little therapeutic progress for years until finally some "breakthrough" occurs, at which point unsuccessful therapies might be supplanted by more effective ones. Looking at the reduction in death rate for the entire population over some random 5 yr period isn't as meaningful as examining changes in the survival rate of a well-defined population following the introduction of a particular therapy. And if one were to rely upon a similar statistic regarding the first 5 yrs after the introduction of an effective vaccine against HIV, you'd see no change in the death rate because even as the vaccine is preventing infection, a successful viral infection wouldn't typically defeat its hosts' immune systems (leading to death) during that timeframe anyways.

So, change in death rate is not the best indication of the success of biomedical research for that reason and because it doesn't include successful new treatments that may improve quality-of-life, say by preventing blindness or other non-fatal disorders (that presumably don't contribute significantly to the general death rate).

Nonetheless, the toll on animals used in scientific investigations is a heavy one and I have to say I'm still undecided. Consider, however, that there is no viable alternative beyond animal models when one wants to study a phenomenon in a living, non-human system. If we don't study it in humans and we don't study it in animals, there simply is no other option. You might argue that you could use "lower animals," but that just isn't legitimate in the case of vaccine trials where we need to test them in a system that is as close to our own as possible (ie. non-human primates). And believe me, researchers will try to choose as primitive of an animal model as possible because, as far as I know, they're always cheaper than a "higher" organism. Without animal experiments, though, you might as well abandon the manifest destiny of modern biomedicine-- that is, to solve all of our medical problems. If you want to discuss whether the inexorable advances of technological progress have a strongly compelling motivation beyond merely doing what we are able to do because we can, or whether human health is the highest good and human suffering is really all that bad, those are other issues. Otherwise, what do you say as the global AIDS pandemic marches on and the ranks of the HIV-infected swell?

At the same time, I'm sympathetic for the little guys -- it is sad that they are forced to endure such an existence for our benefit. Experiments on apes and monkeys are probably the most problematic for me because of their close similarity to us, but I have far fewer misgivings with animals like mice or drosophila. Besides, the euthanization procedures in place today are meant to reduce the likelihood of them suffering, which is really the most you can do. I should probably say that I've never had to kill any of them, though, so I can't say that I've experienced the discomfort that accompanies that.
 
AndyMD said:
Not trying to hate on the OP, but I think that comparing a reduction in the death rate to the number of animals "used" in research over the same course of time cannot result in any meaningful conclusion. Medical research may not be the sole reason that death rate decreases, and it's certainly not true that the medical research being conducted during the five years that lab. animals were counted could have had any effect on the population during that time. If anything, the medical research from something like 10 years before, having gone through animal studies and finally human trials, might have its effects during that 5 yr period but it just doesn't make sense to think that research being done on animals could ever be improving the general public's health at the same time.

The statistic also fails to appreciate the fact that the successes of research are not necessarily continuous with time. Instead, there may be little therapeutic progress for years until finally some "breakthrough" occurs, at which point unsuccessful therapies might be supplanted by more effective ones. Looking at the reduction in death rate for the entire population over some random 5 yr period isn't as meaningful as examining changes in the survival rate of a well-defined population following the introduction of a particular therapy. And if one were to rely upon a similar statistic regarding the first 5 yrs after the introduction of an effective vaccine against HIV, you'd see no change in the death rate because even as the vaccine is preventing infection, a successful viral infection wouldn't typically defeat its hosts' immune systems (leading to death) during that timeframe anyways.

So, change in death rate is not the best indication of the success of biomedical research for that reason and because it doesn't include successful new treatments that may improve quality-of-life, say by preventing blindness or other non-fatal disorders (that presumably don't contribute significantly to the general death rate).


Nonetheless, the toll on animals used in scientific investigations is a heavy one and I have to say I'm still undecided. Consider, however, that there is no viable alternative beyond animal models when one wants to study a phenomenon in a living, non-human system. If we don't study it in humans and we don't study it in animals, there simply is no other option. You might argue that you could use "lower animals," but that just isn't legitimate in the case of vaccine trials where we need to test them in a system that is as close to our own as possible (ie. non-human primates). And believe me, researchers will try to choose as primitive of an animal model as possible because, as far as I know, they're always cheaper than a "higher" organism.


Without animal experiments, though, you might as well abandon the manifest destiny of modern biomedicine-- that is, to solve all of our medical problems. If you want to discuss whether the inexorable advances of technological progress have a strongly compelling motivation beyond merely doing what we are able to do because we can, or whether human health is the highest good and human suffering is really all that bad, those are other issues. Otherwise, what do you say as the global AIDS pandemic marches on and the ranks of the HIV-infected swell?


At the same time, I'm sympathetic for the little guys -- it is sad that they are forced to endure such an existence for our benefit. Experiments on apes and monkeys are probably the most problematic for me because of their close similarity to us, but I have far fewer misgivings with animals like mice or drosophila. Besides, the euthanization procedures in place today are meant to reduce the likelihood of them suffering, which is really the most you can do. I should probably say that I've never had to kill any of them, though, so I can't say that I've experienced the discomfort that accompanies that.


...I guess you have some sort of point here, but its a moot one. Bottom line: ALL therapeutic progress in medicine is made by the use of animals. Whether the animals that saved human lives died 5 years ago or 25 years ago is irrevelant.

Trust me, a researcher thinks very little about how much an animal costs when preparing a grant. By far the most important point when choosing an animal model is the revelance of that model. For example, when conducting neuroanatomical studies, primates are used for the most reliable results for human comparison. There are quite a few differences between rodent and humans. Mouse genomes are just about fully annotated and genetic manipulation is fairly easy -- in the case of gene/phenotype studies most people start with mice. The cost of animals is not that significant in a 4 year 5 million dollar grant.

Have you seen how close some studies are to curing HIV?? At this point, HIV can be "cured" in cell culture.....the use of siRNA has made huge leaps towards a "vaccine"; the only hurdle left is a vector that will not harm humans more than it helps. We are alot closer than you think.

I'm not trying to create an arguement here, just trying to make a few points from the other side. As I said before, most of the animal rights nuts don't even know that the prozac/celexa/zoloft that allows them to get out of bed in the moring probably killed more animals than most single researchers do in 15 years.
 
Science_Guy said:
Another point to be made. Many in the animal rights community will claim that computer "models" can be used as a substitute for many types of animal testing. The problem is that computer models are not optimized enough to develop a new therapeutic agent with yet, although computer modeling IS used to assist in the drug discovery process.

Also, for drug approval, the FDA REQUIRES some animal testing, such as toxicology and ADME studies, usually in rodents and non-rodents. And as a previous poster pointed out, you need some type of guidance from animal studies to make choices in terms of new chemical entities that are going forward for clinical development. Otherwise....you run into the ethical problem of treating humans without any previous supportive animal data.

Having worked with rhesus monkeys for motor control modeling, I experienced firsthand how troubling this kind of research is. I spent months teaching them manual tasks, getting to know them in the process, then performing deeply invasive and painful surguries on them, and after enough data was recorded, sacrificed them for dissection. These guys are pretty emotionally articulate. It is impossible to dismiss the very real suffering that these monkeys experience throughout their short (or long) lives. In the end I couldn't tolerate the day to day grind of seeing on these monkeys I came to know.

I became an engineer and delayed my entry into medicine for a good 6 years.

I've always been interested in biomaterials development but held off because I could not reconcile my experience in the lab with my interests. At this point, I have to agree that animal research is responsible for a large portion of our medicinal knowledge. But I think we need to do research with an eye on minimizing our use of animals and ultimately eliminating it, particularly the suffering.

I would have no problem if we genetically engineered animal models that felt no pain or suffering. It sounds Brave New Worldish but bottomline it is the suffering that is wrong wth animal research.
 
I would like to point out that not all animal research need lead to therapuetic benefit to be ethically sound. I, for one, believe it is ethical to conduct experimental investigation into basic research questions using animals, as is currently done extensively in a variety of fields.

In addition, not ALL therapuetic progress in medicine has been made using animals. A great deal has indeed, but there are also cases in which animal research was not used prior to a treatment be administered to humans.

As for cost, it is a fortunate researcher than need not think about cost. My lab spends hundreds of thousands of dollars each year housing mice. Some research approaches are scientifically feasible, but prohibitive in terms of expenses and therefore a researcher may choose an alternate approach. Not everyone is awarded 5 million dollar grants, after all.

Finally, I would say that is premature to be telling people that we are close to a cure for HIV/AIDS. While current studies are promising, there are many more issues that must be addressed, not the least of which is an appropriate vector. For example, maintenance of expression, safety, and potential for development of resistance are all issues that need further work--both in animals and in humans.
 
Reckoning said:
Having worked with rhesus monkeys for motor control modeling, I experienced firsthand how troubling this kind of research is. I spent months teaching them manual tasks, getting to know them in the process, then performing deeply invasive and painful surguries on them, and after enough data was recorded, sacrificed them for dissection. These guys are pretty emotionally articulate. It is impossible to dismiss the very real suffering that these monkeys experience throughout their short (or long) lives. In the end I couldn't tolerate the day to day grind of seeing on these monkeys I came to know.

I became an engineer and delayed my entry into medicine for a good 6 years.

I've always been interested in biomaterials development but held off because I could not reconcile my experience in the lab with my interests. At this point, I have to agree that animal research is responsible for a large portion of our medicinal knowledge. But I think we need to do research with an eye on minimizing our use of animals and ultimately eliminating it, particularly the suffering.

I would have no problem if we genetically engineered animal models that felt no pain or suffering. It sounds Brave New Worldish but bottomline it is the suffering that is wrong wth animal research.

Reckoning...you mirror the opinions of many who have had to use higher animals, such as canines or primates in research. When you sit and think about it, the use of animals that we view with a great amount of affection is indeed something that is hard to come to grips with sometimes. From my years in research labs, I know that having canines suffer from adverse events, such as allergic reactions or severe neutropenia to a novel antineoplastic agent we were testing in a non-rodent species, is hard to come to grips with....but, at least for now, is a by-product of the current state of medical science and exploration. I think that as researchers, we should design our experiments with as few animals as needed, and also that we use the supportive technologies, such as computer models, to help decide which selected agents go forward for further investigation instead of testing every possible compound.

However, in the end, the use of animals will have to continue due to our need to understand what happens in a dynamic biological system (whether that be to understand pharmacology, pharmacodynamics, pharmacokinetics, etc)....something that in vitro studies alone cannot do.
 
Kels-
well, if life span has increased by 10 years since 1900 and there have been roughly 10 billion people around since then, then scientific advancements have added 100 billion years to human life in the past 100 years. That's a lot of extra life. Add on top of that the improvement in quality of life.

I've always found research to be very humane to animals. Most times, animals are treated better in a lab than they would be as pets.

I dont see how serving as a model of disease is better than being a pet. This statement also works under the assumption that they would be pets, most likely not.

In contrast, the standard method used to be (so I have heard), and still is in many parts of the world, simply cervical dislocation, breaking the neck. Allegedly it is painless and quick (but a bit more icky for the experimentalist). However, as far as I know, it's not allowed anymore, except for labs that study the respiratory system, for obvious reasons.

Actually this is allowed, in the 3 labs I have worked in, 2 in US and 1 in UK, they have all practiced cervical dislocation and it is even a recommended method of death in the UK as is crushing the skull (for small animals), of course after overdose of anaesthetic, CO2, etc etc.

So, change in death rate is not the best indication of the success of biomedical research for that reason and because it doesn't include successful new treatments that may improve quality-of-life, say by preventing blindness or other non-fatal disorders (that presumably don't contribute significantly to the general death rate).

I agree with you, was just something I found, certainly not an effective measurement by any means, but gives some sort of indication as to the magnitude of animal use.



Also, what do you guys think about the use of animals in basic research versus biomed research. ie one guy using animals to understand life versus one guy using animals to save humans. some would say its more noble to at least use the killing of other animals for some purpose rather than the holistic purpose of just knowledge. i know its kind of splitting hairs as basic research leads to medical applications in many cases, but in terms of primary purpose of a scientist...another thought :)
 
Science_Guy said:
...in the end, the use of animals will have to continue due to our need to understand what happens in a dynamic biological system (whether that be to understand pharmacology, pharmacodynamics, pharmacokinetics, etc)....something that in vitro studies alone cannot do.

Agreed. My skin just isn't thick enough to do it personally. I eat meat and even shot a deer last weekend without batting an eye. But I would like to see us move away from experimentation on higher animals as soon as possible.
 
Top