Everything You Need To Know About ASPEN DENTAL

[Bobby Fischer]

...I did not "*****" my self. Some of this language is a little ridiculous by the way. It definately shows the level maturity. I am pretty sure these comments are going to go on def ears. However I am going to say this again. ASPEN is not the big bad wolf. We are an organization who provides dental care to patients who need it. That is all.

Said the wolf to Little Red Riding Hood. Sorry, bub, I don't buy it. Your ears and nose and teeth are too obviously big.

The position of anti-franchise big corporate international business in america and esp. healthcare has nothing to do with 'mature' or 'immature'. Reality only cares which is truthful and which is opportunistic & fraudulent. Ultimately humanity is going to be concerned with what is moral and what is not more than a debate about what exactly is 'mature' rhetoric. Incidently there is nothing inherently 'mature' about 'mature films'. That label 'mature' was designed to undermine the very term itself to accommodate the immature.

I'll take the immature 12 year old who tells the truth over the lying pusbag of a 60 year old off wall street or entrenched in Congress any day.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[djeffreyt]

The use of words, "we are an organization" is so obvious you are speaking for the company, and not for yourself. Specially with 1 post to your name on these forums.

I gotta say, I don't work for Aspen and my offices are all dentist owned 100% and I'm just an associate, but this is weird to me. I don't love corporate dentistry, but I see dentists all the time who do work at them producing excellent work and servicing their patients well. Of course I see patients from Monarch, Western, Aspen, etc who come to me with hack job appearing work and horror stories, but I imagine I lose some of my patients to Monarch, Aspen and others who also have just as horrible of horror stories to share about me regardless of how well I may feel I treated them.

That all said, I don't really get the problem with the use of "we." I say to my patients every day that "We" will do our best to ...give them a pleasant experience, solve their pain, see them at their appointed time, match their crown to their tooth color, etc. I use that word, we, a lot, because my office staff and my lab staff and I all are part of a team.

Do I use the word "I"? Sure I do, but I wouldn't say a dentist using the word we is indicative of some conspiracy of the corporation. Just my point of view I guess.

 

[Cold Front]

I gotta say, I don't work for Aspen and my offices are all dentist owned 100% and I'm just an associate, but this is weird to me. I don't love corporate dentistry, but I see dentists all the time who do work at them producing excellent work and servicing their patients well. Of course I see patients from Monarch, Western, Aspen, etc who come to me with hack job appearing work and horror stories, but I imagine I lose some of my patients to Monarch, Aspen and others who also have just as horrible of horror stories to share about me regardless of how well I may feel I treated them.

That all said, I don't really get the problem with the use of "we." I say to my patients every day that "We" will do our best to ...give them a pleasant experience, solve their pain, see them at their appointed time, match their crown to their tooth color, etc. I use that word, we, a lot, because my office staff and my lab staff and I all are part of a team.

Do I use the word "I"? Sure I do, but I wouldn't say a dentist using the word we is indicative of some conspiracy of the corporation. Just my point of view I guess.

There is a difference between "we" and "we as an organization". One can be understood in the context of a particular office, another as "corporate".

 

[Bobby Fischer]

there is a difference between "we" and "we as an organization". One can be understood in the context of a particular office, another as "corporate".

+1

 

[Halcion]

how long have you worked there and how closely did you read your contract. It was in my contract - and while it made me sick to sign it, I am ortho so it didn't affect me. I wish I would have saved it, I would post the contract

I have worked at Monarch for almost a year and half. It was definitely not in my contract. What part of the country do you work in? When was this contract drafted? I am very surprised by this. I can't imagine very many dentists signing something similar to what you are referring to.

 

[Halcion]

I know. I never said there wasn't shady stuff going on. But I make sure there isn't. I have even brought shady billing practices to the attention of corporate and they have reprimanded/reassigned/let go of some office managers as a result.

 

[doc toothache]

As of today, ASPEN has over 130 dentist positions available on their site throughout the country. Ofcourse of some of these spots are dentists who are about to leave the company (or what we use to call at ASPEN, dentist who are about to be fired for not meeting goal).

The vitriol flowing from the nostrils is clouding both vision and judgement. Dentists in private practice will continue to abhor corporate dentistry even if it was the quintessential model; those employed by corporate dentistry will, at best/worst, be ambivalent. In all likelihood, at least some members of the 2013 class will be thrilled to know that there are "over 130 dentist positions available".

 

[shuckin wizzies]

The vitriol flowing from the nostrils is clouding both vision and judgement. Dentists in private practice will continue to abhor corporate dentistry even if it was the quintessential model; those employed by corporate dentistry will at best/worst be ambivalent. In all likelihood, at least some members of the 2013 class will be thrilled to know that there are "over 130 dentist positions available".

I agree here. I think the hatred has less to do with patient care, and more to do with the older dentists feeling threatened financially.

In the 70s, it was dental insurance that was the great evil that would end dentistry. And dentists that became insurance providers were shunned by the older guys.

In the 80s, it was the dentists that named their practices anything other than "Dr. Knowitall, DDS, MAGD, etc. "It cheapens the profession"

In the 90s, it was dentists that used advertising, especially advertising costs of procedures.

In the 00s, it was the large companies.

While possibly hurting the older dentists that didn't embrace the change, things like insurance and advertising have empowered patients to have more choices. Corporate dentistry has improved access to care. Why are we demonizing marketing towards patients that haven't seen a dentist in over 15 years? And the free exams and radiographs that break down a barrier that kept the patient away from us for so long?

 

[Cold Front]

I agree here. I think the hatred has less to do with patient care, and more to do with the older dentists feeling threatened financially.

In the 70s, it was dental insurance that was the great evil that would end dentistry. And dentists that became insurance providers were shunned by the older guys.

In the 80s, it was the dentists that named their practices anything other than "Dr. Knowitall, DDS, MAGD, etc. "It cheapens the profession"

In the 90s, it was dentists that used advertising, especially advertising costs of procedures.

In the 00s, it was the large companies.

While possibly hurting the older dentists that didn't embrace the change, things like insurance and advertising have empowered patients to have more choices. Corporate dentistry has improved access to care. Why are we demonizing marketing towards patients that haven't seen a dentist in over 15 years? And the free exams and radiographs that break down a barrier that kept the patient away from us for so long?

There was no corruption lawsuits in 70's, 80's and 90's, and no involvement of private equities in main stream dentistry up until 00's. Now we have ASPEN and many other chains being investigated for hurting patients and caring more about their financial bottom line.

As a dentist, the patient's well being is first, and I and other dentist colleagues have all taken Hippocratic oath to protect and care for patients in our field. ASPEN doctors are not the problem, but everything else about ASPEN - particularly managers and executives, who did not take any Hippocratic oath to do what's best for patients, but instead for their pockets.

 

[doc toothache]

managers and executives, who did not take any Hippocratic oath to do what's best for patients, but instead for their pockets.

Neither the Hippocratic nor the Hippocritic oath will offer protection from the wrath of unhappy patients as can be attested by the proliferation, in the last 2 decades, of lawsuits involving health care practitioners.

 

[Cold Front]

Neither the Hippocratic nor the Hippocritic oath will offer protection from the wrath of unhappy patients as can be attested by the proliferation, in the last 2 decades, of lawsuits involving health care practitioners.

Most dentists follow the oath, but, obviously there are those who don't, but the problem becomes more significant when you have a private equity controlled dentists who get pressured to deviate from their "Hippocratic Oath" every day they come to work. The morning huddles at ASPEN is not so much helping patients, but more about meeting the production goal. Those who come to understand they are just an "employee" and not a "practitioner" simple leave or make plans to leave, why do you think 130 aspen dentist positions are open?

[YOUTUBE]lf9R4UnVIg4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[doc toothache]

Most dentists follow the oath, but, obviously there are those who don't, but the problem becomes more significant when you have a private equity controlled dentists who get pressured to deviate from their "Hippocratic Oath" every day they come to work. The morning huddles at ASPEN is not so much helping patients, but more about meeting the production goal. Those who come to understand they are just an "employee" and not a "practitioner" simple leave or make plans to leave, why do you think 130 aspen dentist positions are open?

The critical number is not how many dentists leave a practice, rather it is the number of patients that leave/stay with the practice.

 

[Cold Front]

The critical number is not how many dentists leave a practice, rather it is the number of patients that leave/stay with the practice.

ASPEN has a call center dedicated to patient satisfaction and retention. There is a huge turn over rate both for patients and staff. ASPEN's #1 goal is to focus on new patients, and less on existing patients, as the value of new patients > existing patients. Hence they have spent millions in marketing, including NASCAR sponsorships and the likes.

 

[yappy]

Future morning huddle for corp dentists...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJwrlF8AzmA[/YOUTUBE]

Those who come to understand they are just an "employee" and not a "practitioner" simple leave or make plans to leave, why do you think 130 aspen dentist positions are open?

[YOUTUBE]lf9R4UnVIg4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Bobby Fischer]

ASPEN has a call center dedicated to patient satisfaction and retention. There is a huge turn over rate both for patients and staff. ASPEN's #1 goal is to focus on new patients, and less on existing patients, as the value of new patients > existing patients. Hence they have spent millions in marketing, including NASCAR sponsorships and the likes.

^^ what a joke. I could've guessed/ predicted as much from these clowns LOL!!!

whats next: a superbowl commercial?

 

[slayer]

I guess the bad experiences that you and Bsmcag0 had must have something to do with the Texas medicaid system, which accepts every single ortho case. At the chain where I work at, less than 5% of the patients are medidcaid patients.

The brackets that shatter must be the clear ones because the metal brackets don't do that. Again, you, the orthodontist, has the full power to decide. If you think the case cannot be treated properly with clear brackets but the patient demands clear brackets, then you can deny treating him/her. If the case is a simple one (eg 12 month ortho retreat), then I am totally fine with the clear brackets.

Clear brackets? Hahaha....these brackets are metal, cheap and so inferior that wings will disintegrate and the bracket delaminates from the base. These are MC cases, so no question of clear brackets.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

Future morning huddle for corp dentists...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJwrlF8AzmA[/YOUTUBE]

^^ starring Halcion, shukkin wizzies, & HappyAspenDoc on any given day

where is the shame? And supposedly slavery was a thing of the past. Have fun on the plantation...

 

[Cold Front]

I read somewhere, since the filing of this class action against Aspen Dental Management, Inc., the media has exposed numbers of alleged abuses of Aspen Dental, as have a plethora of consumer blog sites. Normally, this would have a highly negative impact on revenue production. Yet, Aspen Dental has been in the throws of massive expansion in clinic openings (just Google how many Aspens will open this year, 50 or more). Why?

One speculation is that Leonard Green & Partners, the private equity owners of Aspen Dental, are using the costs of clinic expansion of ADMI, to mask to losses due to media exposure & legal actions. "Yes, money is flowing out, but it's all due to our growth."

If that's the case, it's an all-or-nothing risk, & an accounting scam. If this fiscal bubble bursts, it will be nearly impossible to find a "white knight" private equity buyer. Patient abandonments of the recently failed orthodontic clinics in Texas & AllCare Dental (defunct DSO operation in the midwest & northeast) will be dwarfed.

One might assume state attorney generals would want to be ahead of the curve, but they're hiding under their desks. Likewise, organized dentistry is hiding under their collective desks.

This case has significant implications, not only for dentistry, but the entire healthcare industry. Do private corporate interests trump patient interests? We'll see.

 

[djeffreyt]

It's too bad that the main responders to this thread on both sides of this argument have both clearly closed their ears to any reasoning from the other side and just started screaming at the top of their lungs to drown out the words of the other party and sling insults...well, it seems one side seems to be doing that more than the other. Again, I'm not a fan of large corporations in the field of dentistry, but I'm shocked at how quickly the level of professionalism among our colleagues is degenerating in some of the members here who have yet to even finish dental school.

And, while there were not many lawsuits or complaint to the dental boards over things such as dental insurance in the 70s, names of dental offices in the 80s, and advertising in the 90s, it is wrong to state that none of these issues were brought to lawsuit or dental boards. There are many cases in which advertising and dental office naming was brought to the attention of boards as dentist tried to prevent these things from occurring in their own time.

 

[goffdent]

It's too bad that the main responders to this thread on both sides of this argument have both clearly closed their ears to any reasoning from the other side and just started screaming at the top of their lungs to drown out the words of the other party and sling insults...well, it seems one side seems to be doing that more than the other. Again, I'm not a fan of large corporations in the field of dentistry, but I'm shocked at how quickly the level of professionalism among our colleagues is degenerating in some of the members here who have yet to even finish dental school.

And, while there were not many lawsuits or complaint to the dental boards over things such as dental insurance in the 70s, names of dental offices in the 80s, and advertising in the 90s, it is wrong to state that none of these issues were brought to lawsuit or dental boards. There are many cases in which advertising and dental office naming was brought to the attention of boards as dentist tried to prevent these things from occurring in their own time.

Or even start....

I just wanted to say "WOW"

 

[Cold Front]

It's too bad that the main responders to this thread on both sides of this argument have both clearly closed their ears to any reasoning from the other side and just started screaming at the top of their lungs to drown out the words of the other party and sling insults...well, it seems one side seems to be doing that more than the other.

No body is screaming at each other, some of us are just suggesting corporate business model is directing dentistry in the wrong direction. No one is drowning another dentists opinion, although some members who participate in this topic are new to these forums and just joined this site to comment on their support for ASPEN corporate system.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

Or even start....

I just wanted to say "WOW"

one doesn't have to go to dental school or be done and out to recognize these typically corporate scams when they see it.

What if I were a lawyer leaving law practice to become a dentist would that make an opinion such as mine more valid than yours, even? Think about it. Could be true. Mid 30s, married with kids licensed professional 15 years working experience.

Didn't exactly fall off the turnip truck yesterday and dentistry is not every predent's first rodeo. In the dentistry rodeo, I am hoping the bull riders don't go corporate. In fact, its why I'm leaving for dentistry. Willing to do whatever it takes to ensure my new profession doesn't implode into low quality oblivion like so many others.

 

[goffdent]

one doesn't have to go to dental school or be done and out to recognize these typically corporate scams when they see it.

What if I were a lawyer leaving law practice to become a dentist would that make an opinion such as mine more valid than yours, even? Think about it. Could be true. Mid 30s, married with kids licensed professional 15 years working experience.

Didn't exactly fall off the turnip truck yesterday and dentistry is not every predent's first rodeo. In the dentistry rodeo, I am hoping the bull riders don't go corporate. In fact, its why I'm leaving for dentistry. Willing to do whatever it takes to ensure my new profession doesn't implode into low quality oblivion like so many others.

The problem is most people have a low dental IQ, and they don't understand a "dental" corporate scam when they see it.

If you were a lawyer leaving practice to become a dentist.. then good for you. I'm not saying anyone's point is more valid, just stating a fact. Dentistry is not my first career, I am non-traditional as well.

I will say that I don't agree with the corporate movement either. Actually a huge reason why I left my first career. I just think that it is a little overboard to say that the quality will be low, because that all depends on the integrity of the dentist and his ability to self-regulate (quality control) and refuse to put out an inferior "product" or treatment.

 

[Cold Front]

I just think that it is a little overboard to say that the quality will be low, because that all depends on the integrity of the dentist and his ability to self-regulate (quality control) and refuse to put out an inferior "product" or treatment.

The quality of dentistry is not up for debate, neither was it ever raised as an issue in corporate related problems. There is a distinction between the work of the dentist, and the way a corporate runs dental practices.

Watch this if you have time, you will understand the POINT of the issue in a nutshell.

Kool Smiles Dentist Testimony on Corporate Dentistry, at Texas Public Health Committee.​

[YOUTUBE]Sz0asFZZd88[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Bobby Fischer]

The quality of dentistry is not up for debate, neither was it ever raised as an issue in corporate related problems. There is a distinction between the work of the dentist, and the way a corporate runs dental practices.

Watch this if you have time, you will understand the POINT of the issue in a nutshell.

Kool Smiles Dentist Testimony on Corporate Dentistry, at Texas Public Health Committee.​

[YOUTUBE]Sz0asFZZd88[/YOUTUBE]

^^ video gets veerryy interesting at 13:00 and especially interesting 14:45 and then straight to the point at 16:25.

If the issue isn't quality then it would seem to me the issues are, as laid out in this video:

-unnecessary care done for profit
-care paid for but not done (fraud)
-needed care that doesn't get done as a result of the resources in time, money, effort wasted feeding the interests of the non dentist shareholders.

...All a result of the conflict of interest between the profiteering private shareholders (corporate non-dentist administration systems) and needed clinical dental medicine care delivery (dentists).

Am I warm?

 

[yappy]

I don't agree, goffdent. I've worked for large corporations and feel like I have an informed opinion based on my work experience as an allied health care employee. I've worked for small, large, and gov institutions and feel like I understand how their different motivations impacts patient care. I think a lot of "global" knowledge can be gained outside of dental school and applied to the dental market place. Although, when it comes to pt care and professional dental duties I agree.

Or even start....

I just wanted to say "WOW"

 

[charlestweed]

Clear brackets? Hahaha....these brackets are metal, cheap and so inferior that wings will disintegrate and the bracket delaminates from the base. These are MC cases, so no question of clear brackets.

So my guess is correct. It has to do with the Texas medicaid. If the government stopped paying for every single ortho case (or at least makes it extremely hard for patients to qualify for ortho tx), you wouldn't have had to see 100+ patients a day and quality of care would have been much better.

When these MC patients don't have to pay for their ortho tx, they don't care. They chew on anything. As the result, the tie wings were bent or the brackets comes off their base. With 10+ years of experience, I can tell you that under heavy chewing force, the brackets usually come "unglued" first....even with the cheapest metal brackets. These MC patients would not have suffered at the chain if the government stopped paying for their treatment. Government is also the source of the problem.

 

[ortho lurker]

So my guess is correct. It has to do with the Texas medicaid. If the government stopped paying for every single ortho case (or at least makes it extremely hard for patients to qualify for ortho tx), you wouldn't have had to see 100+ patients a day and quality of care would have been much better.

When these MC patients don't have to pay for their ortho tx, they don't care. They chew on anything. As the result, the tie wings were bent or the brackets comes off their base. With 10+ years of experience, I can tell you that under heavy chewing force, the brackets usually come "unglued" first....even with the cheapest metal brackets. These MC patients would not have suffered at the chain if the government stopped paying for their treatment. Government is also the source of the problem.

And what happens when the Texas MC ortho gold mine dries up?

Orthodontic Practice for sale - Arlington
Orthodontic Practice – Arlington Private pay collections of $460,000, 8 chair office recently remodeled. Doctor relocating out of area. Posted On: 2/5/2013
Location: Arlington TX US

[email protected] 214-460-4468
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Practice for Sale in McKinney
Orthodontic Practice – McKinney Private pay collections of $350,000, 5 chair office recently remodeled. Doctor relocating out of state. Posted On: 2/5/2013
Location: McKinney TX US

[email protected] 214-460-4468
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in Irving, Texas readily equipped and available for someone to move in and establish their own... Posted On: 2/4/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility near Highland Park available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/4/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 3,268 square feet facility in Allen, Texas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily equipped and... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: ALLEN Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in Houston, Texas available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: HOUSTON Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 5,025 square feet facility near Edinburg, Texas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: EDINBURG Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility near McAllen, Texas available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: MCALLEN Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 10,000 square feet General or Orthodontic facility in Brownsville, Texas. This facility has an abundance of parking available and is readily... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: BROWNSVILLE Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped facility in Northwest Dallas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily equipped and... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: DALL Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in East Dallas readily equipped and available for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Ortho practices start getting abandoned just like in California. On the plus side, hopefully the new grads who were able to get in on the gold mine were able to pay off some student loan debt before they had to relocate. If someone was willing to take a risk, they could buy all 11 ortho practices and start their own ortho chain. Oh wait, someone tried the idea and called it All Smiles or something.

 

[slayer]

So my guess is correct. It has to do with the Texas medicaid. If the government stopped paying for every single ortho case (or at least makes it extremely hard for patients to qualify for ortho tx), you wouldn't have had to see 100+ patients a day and quality of care would have been much better.

When these MC patients don't have to pay for their ortho tx, they don't care. They chew on anything. As the result, the tie wings were bent or the brackets comes off their base. With 10+ years of experience, I can tell you that under heavy chewing force, the brackets usually come "unglued" first....even with the cheapest metal brackets. These MC patients would not have suffered at the chain if the government stopped paying for their treatment. Government is also the source of the problem.

Really? Tie wings disintegrating on the disto-ging of the upper 2s and 3s due to occlusion? The brackets coming unglued I can understand.... I am talking about the bracket face delaminating and the base still glued to the tooth. This is plain and simple greed and inferior product. I've seen lots of cheap brackets and they work just fine, but this is bottom of the barrel crap.

 

[Cold Front]

The scheme is so deep, dental chairs are not only hurting the dental profession, but also uncle sam's loopholes.

Chains like ASPEN pass profits through their Private Equity Firm and taxed at Capital Gains Rate (approx 15%).

Profits leave state and location of dental services delivery, and go to Private Equity Corporation registered in Delaware (no state or local taxes) or Offshore. Private Equity Firms through their Dental Service Management Organization (DMSO) hire dentists to masquerade as Clinic Owners for state regulation & licensure. These fake Owners have no ability to sell this asset, nor pass it down to heirs. Thus, the legal definition of Ownership is not met, and Rule of Law circumvented. If Regulatory sanctions or discipline falls upon the fake Owner Dentist, the DMSO simply hires a new fake Owner Dentist, with no disruption in business activity. Business as usual is allowed to continue, despite a regulatory sanction. Individually and collectively, Private Equity Dentistry has the fiscal resources to purchase influence & favors, from state and federal government. Private Equity Dentistry has the resources, to retain the best law firms defending alleged white- collar crime. Potential statutory violations generally fall upon Employee Dentists, who are supervised by the DMSO. Regulators generally disregard their lawful responsibilities to prosecute Dental Corporations, the same as Individual Persons. Private Equity dental firms have an ethical & legal responsibility to place the interests of shareholders FIRST. Generation of corporate profits is their primary responsibility. Employee Dentists who do not comport with corporate responsibilities will be quickly terminated or disciplined.

Private Equity dental companies have no obligation to the Patient Informed Consent Process. This responsibility is passed through to the DMSO, who in turn, passes this obligation onto individual Employee Dentists. Employee Dentists may either elect to comport with the Rule of Law, and potentially face employment termination,or comport with directives and supervision from the DMSO, which is not always be in the Patient’s Best Interest, nor fully supports the Informed Consent Process and full disclosure. Rule of Law hinges on individual Employee Dentists, who are very low on the Corporate “totem pole”, and vulnerable to employment termination and discipline.

We are now in the age where dentists don't see what's coming at them at corporate dentistry level... For example a bank in the country of Bahrain (Bahrain Bank) is a stake holder of Small Smiles, a dental chain that is abusing taxing payers money for their Private Equities.

 

[charlestweed]

Really? Tie wings disintegrating on the disto-ging of the upper 2s and 3s due to occlusion? The brackets coming unglued I can understand.... I am talking about the bracket face delaminating and the base still glued to the tooth. This is plain and simple greed and inferior product. I've seen lots of cheap brackets and they work just fine, but this is bottom of the barrel crap.

Two reasons for this to happen. You either apply too much force or the patients chew on something that they are not supposed to. Normal orthodontic force is too weak to cause the brackets to delaminate from their bases. I've seen brackets delaminated from their bases a few times but this problem is not as frequent as loose bracket problem. Therefore, using cheap brackets should be a non-issue. BTW, the chain I work for used to use American Ortho brackets. Now, they switch to Class One Ortho.

 

[charlestweed]

And what happens when the Texas MC ortho gold mine dries up?

Orthodontic Practice for sale - Arlington
Orthodontic Practice – Arlington Private pay collections of $460,000, 8 chair office recently remodeled. Doctor relocating out of area. Posted On: 2/5/2013
Location: Arlington TX US

[email protected] 214-460-4468
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Practice for Sale in McKinney
Orthodontic Practice – McKinney Private pay collections of $350,000, 5 chair office recently remodeled. Doctor relocating out of state. Posted On: 2/5/2013
Location: McKinney TX US

[email protected] 214-460-4468
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in Irving, Texas readily equipped and available for someone to move in and establish their own... Posted On: 2/4/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility near Highland Park available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/4/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 3,268 square feet facility in Allen, Texas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily equipped and... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: ALLEN Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in Houston, Texas available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: HOUSTON Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 5,025 square feet facility near Edinburg, Texas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: EDINBURG Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility near McAllen, Texas available immediately for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: MCALLEN Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Spacious 10,000 square feet General or Orthodontic facility in Brownsville, Texas. This facility has an abundance of parking available and is readily... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: BROWNSVILLE Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped facility in Northwest Dallas. This facility can be used for either Orthodontic or General services and is readily equipped and... Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: DALL Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Orthodontic Equipped Practice
Fully equipped Orthodontic or General facility in East Dallas readily equipped and available for someone to move in and establish their own practice. Posted On: 2/1/2013
Location: DALLAS Texas US

[email protected] 888.567.1341 x940
Orthodontics > For Sale - Practice

Ortho practices start getting abandoned just like in California. On the plus side, hopefully the new grads who were able to get in on the gold mine were able to pay off some student loan debt before they had to relocate. If someone was willing to take a risk, they could buy all 11 ortho practices and start their own ortho chain. Oh wait, someone tried the idea and called it All Smiles or something.

Wow, I didn't know that so many TX ortho offices are struggling now because of the medicaid cut. I always thought that even with this cut, the TX orthodontists should still do a lot better than us, CA orthodontists, because we are facing a more severe saturation problem here in CA.

 

[goffdent]

I don't agree, goffdent. I've worked for large corporations and feel like I have an informed opinion based on my work experience as an allied health care employee. I've worked for small, large, and gov institutions and feel like I understand how their different motivations impacts patient care. I think a lot of "global" knowledge can be gained outside of dental school and applied to the dental market place. Although, when it comes to pt care and professional dental duties I agree.

to clarify.. my "wow" was not in response to any one person's post, rather the thread and some of the directions it has gone in. I wasn't clear.

 

[slayer]

Two reasons for this to happen. You either apply too much force or the patients chew on something that they are not supposed to. Normal orthodontic force is too weak to cause the brackets to delaminate from their bases. I've seen brackets delaminated from their bases a few times but this problem is not as frequent as loose bracket problem. Therefore, using cheap brackets should be a non-issue. BTW, the chain I work for used to use American Ortho brackets. Now, they switch to Class One Ortho.

Reason #3 - Crappy brackets.
I can understand forces on the lower arch, but definitely not in the upper. What forces are you alluding to? No orthodontic force should cause wings to break off!!!
Like I said before....I know brackets, and when they disintegrate, that's a defect in their manufacturing process = cheap, crappy brackets. I have never had American or Class One fragment before.

 

[ortho lurker]

Wow, I didn't know that so many TX ortho offices are struggling now because of the medicaid cut. I always thought that even with this cut, the TX orthodontists should still do a lot better than us, CA orthodontists, because we are facing a more severe saturation problem here in CA.

There goes the theory that just moving to a more rural area and you will automatically do well. Mckinney, Allen, Edinburg, and Brownsville sound pretty podunk to me. That or the future of ortho REALLY looks bleak.

 

[shuckin wizzies]

Thanks for the video, Cold Front. I feel that it paints a pretty good picture of the debate that is going on, and anyone would benefit from it. The concerns raised were the exact concerns that I had when looking into Aspen Dental. My main questions before taking the job dealt with this specific issue. I appreciate the respect towards your fellow dentists as well.

I think there is some bad logic going on here, however. Sponsoring sports teams (i.e. NASCAR) is a staple of many private practice owners. If corporate dentistry disappeared, the sponsoring of sports teams by dentists would be alive and well. Cheesy morning huddles, while amusing, have been around for a while. The private practice that I worked in went over financials every morning, and had a daily quote that everybody said.

If the problems are:
-unnecessary care done for profit
-care paid for but not done (fraud)
-needed care that doesn't get done as a result of the resources in time, money, effort wasted feeding the interests of the non dentist shareholders.

Then yes, there is a BIG problem. Any of these issues are tragic, and do harm to our profession. But to assume that these problems are the result of a conflict of interest between the "evil" money hungry DSO and the "saintly" do gooder dentist is erroneous. I would be interested to know some statistics before passing judgment on anyone. Does insurance overbilling happen more frequently in a corporate setting, or a solo practitioner setting? How about a large group practice or a small group practice? I have no idea the answer to this, but if one of the main problems are unnecessary care done for profit, maybe we should look into the statistics of it before we condemn anyone. Maybe overbilling is less frequent in a corporate setting, due to the intense scrutiny. Who knows? I don't claim to. One example... a buddy of mine from school went to a large group practice (10 GP, some specialists) and was told that every RCT gets a post/core and crown. The owners (dentists) made it an office policy to put a post every time. Again, if DSOs were eliminated, these major problems would remain.

The slavery comment is offensive and ignorant, not to mention the racist overtones. Any dentist working as an associate is either an independent contractor, or an employee (correct me if I'm wrong) and is expected to follow the "rules" set by the owner of the office. And "unprofitable" dentists get fired even in a 2 dentist company. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it is true.

 

[Cold Front]

Thanks for the video, Cold Front. I feel that it paints a pretty good picture of the debate that is going on, and anyone would benefit from it. The concerns raised were the exact concerns that I had when looking into Aspen Dental. My main questions before taking the job dealt with this specific issue. I appreciate the respect towards your fellow dentists as well.

I think there is some bad logic going on here, however. Sponsoring sports teams (i.e. NASCAR) is a staple of many private practice owners. If corporate dentistry disappeared, the sponsoring of sports teams by dentists would be alive and well. Cheesy morning huddles, while amusing, have been around for a while. The private practice that I worked in went over financials every morning, and had a daily quote that everybody said.

If the problems are:
-unnecessary care done for profit
-care paid for but not done (fraud)
-needed care that doesn't get done as a result of the resources in time, money, effort wasted feeding the interests of the non dentist shareholders.

Then yes, there is a BIG problem. Any of these issues are tragic, and do harm to our profession. But to assume that these problems are the result of a conflict of interest between the "evil" money hungry DSO and the "saintly" do gooder dentist is erroneous. I would be interested to know some statistics before passing judgment on anyone. Does insurance overbilling happen more frequently in a corporate setting, or a solo practitioner setting? How about a large group practice or a small group practice? I have no idea the answer to this, but if one of the main problems are unnecessary care done for profit, maybe we should look into the statistics of it before we condemn anyone. Maybe overbilling is less frequent in a corporate setting, due to the intense scrutiny. Who knows? I don't claim to. One example... a buddy of mine from school went to a large group practice (10 GP, some specialists) and was told that every RCT gets a post/core and crown. The owners (dentists) made it an office policy to put a post every time. Again, if DSOs were eliminated, these major problems would remain.

If you still work for ASPEN, and you pay closer attention to the "upcoding" your office manager does to meet monthly goals, you should do something about it. Specially in the hygiene and oral surgery codes. Address your concerns to the management, and if you are let go, whistleblow them through your state attorney general. If ASPEN is found guilty (and I'm sure they will be if there is an evidence of upcoding), you should qualify for an award 10% and 30% of the money collected / or settled. This happens all the time in big corporations like ASPEN.

[YOUTUBE]NFqYn3i_UQ0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Shunwei]

If you still work for ASPEN, and you pay closer attention to the "upcoding" your office manager does to meet monthly goals, you should do something about it. Specially in the hygiene and oral surgery codes. Address your concerns to the management, and if you are let go, whistleblow them through your state attorney general. If ASPEN is found guilty (and I'm sure they will be if there is an evidence of upcoding), you should qualify for an award 10% and 30% of the money collected / or settled. This happens all the time in big corporations like ASPEN.

[YOUTUBE]NFqYn3i_UQ0[/YOUTUBE]

Coldfront, I admire your ardent crusade against Aspen and Corporate Dentistry in general, but don't you think you are beating a dead horse a bit too much? I personally don't like Aspen either at all--when I was being graduated last year for a while I spoke to Aspen recruiters and it seemed at first an interesting option, but after doing my own research on the company I elected to drop the idea because of its shady practices and poor reputation from patient complaints, so I wanted none of that. However, not all corporate dentistry is bad--you don't think some private dentists suck?

In any case, if corporate dentistry is here to stay, there is very little you and I can do about it, like what happened in Pharmacy. If, on the other hand, it is shady and underhanded, then eventually people will shun them and they will fade. So I wouldn't worry too much or lose my shirt over the topic. It's good that you are bringing the issue to the forefront so that people can think about it, but let's keep it controlled.

On the other hand, with the availability of the internet and google searches, I think a portion of the blame should also rest on patients who, despite ample negative reviews readily available on searches, still choose to go to Aspen. Perhaps Aspen preys on these suckers, but it's like fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice, shame on me. With all the information available, it's like still touching a red hot stove when you know what it's all about.

 

[Cold Front]

Coldfront, I admire your ardent crusade against Aspen and Corporate Dentistry in general, but don't you think you are beating a dead horse a bit too much? I personally don't like Aspen either at all--when I was being graduated last year for a while I spoke to Aspen recruiters and it seemed at first an interesting option, but after doing my own research on the company I elected to drop the idea because of its shady practices and poor reputation from patient complaints, so I wanted none of that. However, not all corporate dentistry is bad--you don't think some private dentists suck?

In any case, if corporate dentistry is here to stay, there is very little you and I can do about it, like what happened in Pharmacy. If, on the other hand, it is shady and underhanded, then eventually people will shun them and they will fade. So I wouldn't worry too much or lose my shirt over the topic. It's good that you are bringing the issue to the forefront so that people can think about it, but let's keep it controlled.

On the other hand, with the availability of the internet and google searches, I think a portion of the blame should also rest on patients who, despite ample negative reviews readily available on searches, still choose to go to Aspen. Perhaps Aspen preys on these suckers, but it's like fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice, shame on me. With all the information available, it's like still touching a red hot stove when you know what it's all about.

I chose to bring this issue to these forums to warn students, and have them get the word out to their classmates and faculties on how unethical corporate dentistry treats patients, so they can be more informed like you when deciding who to work for after they graduate.

ASPEN and other corporations do free lunch and learns at schools and focus on what students want to hear, a good salary. ASPEN system is built on how to take advantage of vulnerable and friendly new grads. They can be controlled better by office managers to meet corporate expectations, it's simple as that.

Dentists can fight these abuses better than the government or the public.

 

[Shunwei]

I might also add a little bit to what Coldfront said here: Corporate dentistry likes New Grads because they are moldable and can be shaped to what corporations want them to do. So by training them in their ways and soaking them in their doctrine, it's much easier to "make" someone follow their ways.

I think it's good that Coldfront is bringing this up because I do think Aspen is like an eyesore to the field for the immense quantities of negative patient reviews, which I believe most are real. However, I don't think that corporate dentistry is all bad, there are good dentists doing good work, and just the same there are awful dentists in private practice. Maybe eventually a happy equilibrium will ensue where we can all coexist.

 

[Halcion]

I might also add a little bit to what Coldfront said here: Corporate dentistry likes New Grads because they are moldable and can be shaped to what corporations want them to do. So by training them in their ways and soaking them in their doctrine, it's much easier to "make" someone follow their ways.

I think it's good that Coldfront is bringing this up because I do think Aspen is like an eyesore to the field for the immense quantities of negative patient reviews, which I believe most are real. However, I don't think that corporate dentistry is all bad, there are good dentists doing good work, and just the same there are awful dentists in private practice. Maybe eventually a happy equilibrium will ensue where we can all coexist.

New grads need to stick up for themselves. If all new grads did this, stood up for themselves, their beliefs, how they were trained, patient-first mentality, etc, then maybe corporations would quit being the way they are. The truth is, if we all did this, and we all got fired for it, these corporations would go under because they need us more than we need them. I am a "stick to your guns" kinda person, and nobody tells me how to treat my patients, diagnose, etc. And I work for a corporation, and it hasn't been a problem...yet. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I'm not saying corporate can't find another warm body to fill your place if they don't like what you are doing, but ultimately, if we stood up to them, and told them no, then they might back off a bit. The truth is, all the corporate higher ups would want you to treat them the way you were taught in school if they needed dental work, but as long as it's not them, they want you to produce, produce, produce, at the expense of doing shady dentistry.

 

[Cold Front]

New grads need to stick up for themselves. If all new grads did this, stood up for themselves, their beliefs, how they were trained, patient-first mentality, etc, then maybe corporations would quit being the way they are. The truth is, if we all did this, and we all got fired for it, these corporations would go under because they need us more than we need them. I am a "stick to your guns" kinda person, and nobody tells me how to treat my patients, diagnose, etc. And I work for a corporation, and it hasn't been a problem...yet. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I'm not saying corporate can't find another warm body to fill your place if they don't like what you are doing, but ultimately, if we stood up to them, and told them no, then they might back off a bit. The truth is, all the corporate higher ups would want you to treat them the way you were taught in school if they needed dental work, but as long as it's not them, they want you to produce, produce, produce, at the expense of doing shady dentistry.

ASPEN dental is promising big salaries to new grads, so they can sign contracts while they are still in school. So students are locked into deal while they are too busy with their 4th year graduation requirements.

After sponsoring NASCAR drivers, ASPEN is now entering college basketball marketing, and soon we will see their ads at your local grocery store and gas stations.

http://aspendentalmoments.com/

 

[Bobby Fischer]

...After sponsoring NASCAR drivers, ASPEN is now entering college basketball marketing, and soon we will see their ads at your local grocery store and gas stations.

http://aspendentalmoments.com/

How embarrassing

 

[ortho lurker]

Corporate dentistry is here to stay, and there is nothing we can do about it. Look at pharmacy and optometry.... if it were that easy to uprise, don't you think their respective franchises would have failed by now? At the end of the day, most of us need to provide for our family and corporate dentistry is the most accessible way to put food on the table straight out of dental school with massive education loans. If you think your corporate job is unethical, simply quit and join another one. And yes, medicine will be next...

 

[Cold Front]

Corporate dentistry is here to stay, and there is nothing we can do about it. Look at pharmacy and optometry.... if it were that easy to uprise, don't you think their respective franchises would have failed by now? At the end of the day, most of us need to provide for our family and corporate dentistry is the most accessible way to put food on the table straight out of dental school with massive education loans. If you think your corporate job is unethical, simply quit and join another one. And yes, medicine will be next...

Are you a foreign trained dentist? Because you can be as successful, if not more, if you don't work for Aspen. You just compared dentistry to pharmacy and optometry, is that what corporate dentists are saying now?

Massive education loans will always be better than manager with high school diploma who always bosses you around, and sees you as an "Employee" and not the "Doctor" in a corporate dental office.

 

[HopeforDMD]

Corporate dentistry is here to stay, and there is nothing we can do about it. Look at pharmacy and optometry.... if it were that easy to uprise, don't you think their respective franchises would have failed by now? At the end of the day, most of us need to provide for our family and corporate dentistry is the most accessible way to put food on the table straight out of dental school with massive education loans. If you think your corporate job is unethical, simply quit and join another one. And yes, medicine will be next...

I agree that the corporate model will probably keep expanding, but isn't the phrase "to put food on the table" a bit dramatic? I imagine that most new grads that go corporate could pick up an associate position and still get by just fine. They may choose to go corporate (which is of course a legitimate choice), but it's not like a do-or-die sort of thing.

I suppose there could be more of a saturation problem than I realize though...

 

[Daurang]

After sponsoring NASCAR drivers, ASPEN is now entering college basketball marketing, and soon we will see their ads at your local grocery store and gas stations.

http://aspendentalmoments.com/

I don't care as long as Aspen don't move into my ad territory...paying the homeless to put my office ad on shopping carts they're pushing around town.

 

[Ferneezy]

...paying the homeless to put my office ad on shopping carts they're pushing around town.

Brilliant

 

[yappy]

Just wanted to point out that dentistry and dental services are very different than eye glasses and drugs; which, are the same no matter where you buy them. All they have to compete on is cost.

 

[jda02624]

paying the homeless to put my office ad on shopping carts they're pushing around town.

I like the Joe Dirt method: