Failed PhD qualifying exam and quitting MSTP as G3

[xcrunner01]

Hi everyone,

I am a MSTP student considering quitting the PhD and returning to clinical rotations and am hoping from advice or stories from anyone who underwent anything similar. I did my first two years of med school and did ok with a mix of H/HP, then started the PhD years. I'm in my 3rd year of PhD research (5th year MSTP overall) and just failed my qualifying exam. I have several publications, but no first author scientific paper yet; all of my publications thus far have been 2 review articles (1st author), 1 case report (1st author), and some middle author scientific papers. Failing the qualifying exam is extremely rare at my school and I feel like such a failure for not passing. There may be an option to re-do the written and oral portions of the exam, but that's not guaranteed and my advisor at this point feels that it will take too long for me to finish the PhD (another 2-3 years), so he thinks it would be best for me to return to med school. I've had some bad luck regarding advisors- my PI left the university so I had to switch labs during my second year and now (2.5 years into the PhD) I feel as though I'm finally getting my stride and making good progress towards the PhD, but it seems to be too little, too late regarding the qualifying exam. I'm incredibly disappointed and hoping I can appeal and re-do the exam to be allowed to continue and finish the PhD, but am facing the reality that I may need to return to 3rd year of med school instead.

I've searched the forums and have found examples of MSTP students who quit the PhD at the end of their 1st and 2nd year of research, but I haven't read anything about students who quit in later years of their PhD (3rd year or beyond). Do any of you know anyone who quit the PhD after 3 years of research and successfully returned to clinics and matched? I'm quite concerned that having such a long leave of absence from med school (3 years of research without a PhD) will look very bad on my residency applications. Although I have publications, I won't have a PhD or even a Masters so it will probably raise some red flags during interviews. My step 1 score is good but not outstanding, my preclinical grades are just ok, and now I have this big gap in my education with 3 years away from med school and nothing to show for it. I want to continue the PhD if I'm allowed, but I am likely going to be asked to leave since I didn't pass the qualifying exam. If I successfully appeal the committee's decision, I may be allowed to write-up for a Masters, and there's a small chance I could convince them to allow me to continue the PhD, but it's not guaranteed and seems unlikely at this point. This whole experience has been quite a blow to my self esteem.

Do you have any advice for how I should proceed or how I should address quitting the PhD on residency applications? I feel like such a failure and am embarrassed to tell my family that I didn't cut it, and concerned about how this may affect my residency chances.

Thanks so much for reading and I would greatly appreciate any advice or insight.

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[Promethean]

This isn't the end of the world. Or your life. Or your career. I'm not remotely your peer, and so can't give you a lot of specific help. But I do love someone whose PhD/MD experience ended up being very damaging to her mental health, and it makes me want to reach out to you.

In her case, they just kept not letting her go back into the MD program. She was free lab and teaching labor and her advisor retained her in the PhD component for 6 years, until the funding dried up and they had to release her to complete the MD portion. There is, of course, a lot more to that story, but it wouldn't be helpful to you.

I just need you to know that you aren't a failure. Even if you bounce off the PhD, and end up getting a Masters or just going back and finishing your clinical medical education.... you have been trying to climb Everest. There is no shame at all in not getting to that particular summit. You dared to try. Getting as far as you have is still an achievement in itself. Try to appreciate all that you have gained and experienced and learned. I can't speak to your residency chances, but I know that you aren't going to be as limited as you might fear. You aren't the first person to go through this, you won't be the last. Come out of it talking up all that you accomplished rather than hanging your head.

 

[StIGMA]

First, you have time to make a decision. Don't make this decision until you are absolutely certain.

Second, is it your PI or a different advisor who is suggesting going back to medical school? If it is your PI, then you would have to really not get along with them (read: acquire lots of data) for them to tell you to leave. How independent are you in the lab? How many hours are you doing experiments in the lab per week? Are each of your experiments publishable (read: designed like you see them in papers; simple, asking a specific question, appropriate controls, a direct extension of a previous experiment, etc)?

Why did you not pass the qualifying exam? You should have a significant amount of data toward your project by year 3 (meaning, you can piece together a publication pending limited future experiments in your head by this point). Was it due to just not "getting it" with the PhD mindset or lack of data or personality conflicts or other reasons?

Do you have a thesis project? How far away is it from publication? If you are able to publish anything that would satisfy your dissertation committee within the next 1-2 years, that would be preferable to dropping out. As you mentioned, an alternate exit point is to get the masters, if that is possible.

Generally, the MD/PhD program will do what they can to keep you in the program.

Can you assess yourself on where you are scientifically compared to your graduate school peers? Are you teaching them or are they teaching you?

(Edited)

 

[Neuronix]

I agree with Stigma about how to stay in the program. There are a number of questions to address about what's going wrong with the PhD and if it can be salvaged. But you seem to be asking specifically about what happens if you leave:

I haven't read anything about students who quit in later years of their PhD (3rd year or beyond). Do any of you know anyone who quit the PhD after 3 years of research and successfully returned to clinics and matched? I'm quite concerned that having such a long leave of absence from med school (3 years of research without a PhD) will look very bad on my residency applications. Although I have publications, I won't have a PhD or even a Masters so it will probably raise some red flags during interviews.

Most residency programs don't really care if you have a PhD to begin with, so dropping one will create a similar level of concern (i.e. they won't really care). A limited number of competitive, academic or research-oriented programs will care. Everyone else will just want to be reassured that you're not going to fail out of residency, so the best way to do that is to build an otherwise competitive clinical application.

My step 1 score is good but not outstanding, my preclinical grades are just ok, and now I have this big gap in my education with 3 years away from med school and nothing to show for it.

Your goal coming back will be to rock your clinical grades.

It will be a bad mark on your residency applications, but it's not insurmountable. When it comes to picking a specialty and where to apply for programs, ignore that you were ever in a PhD program and assess where you'd be competitive based on your step 1 and clinical grades. Get strong letters. You may then want to get some specialty specific research--though you already have a case report published which helps if it's applicable to the specialty to which you're applying.

If I successfully appeal the committee's decision, I may be allowed to write-up for a Masters, and there's a small chance I could convince them to allow me to continue the PhD, but it's not guaranteed and seems unlikely at this point.

Salvaging with a master's seems like the best way out.

I certainly work with my share of MD/PhD faculty and I've worked with a few MD/PhD dropout faculty. The MD/PhDs say their PhD was a waste of time and the MD/PhD dropouts tell me they're glad they dropped the PhD. Really, I think you'll be fine in the long run.

 

[ratherbefishing]

Going back to med school without the PhD isn't going to hurt you as much as you think it will. A letter of rec from your pi might help ( if you are on good terms) but. It necessary. Just say you your heart wasn't in it and that you decided it best to return to med school.

I know someone in a similar situation and they matched just fine. It depends on how you sell it.

You are smart and capable or else you wouldn't have made it this far. You can pickup research again in/after residency. Many places would love to have you.

 

[xcrunner01]

Thanks to all for your responses. I have one first author publication in preparation (clinical research project) and will try hard to wrap it up and submit in the next couple of months. My PhD project has had two components thus far- a clinical component (focus of my first two years, has been very successful) and a preclinical component (focus of this year and meant to be the latter half of my PhD research). The preclinical project has been slow getting up and running this year, and I am really struggling to produce good results. My committee thinks that the clinical pub will be good but it's not enough for a PhD by itself and that it will take me another 2-3 years or more to publish anything on my preclinical work. I will try to defend my clinical project as a Master’s, cut my losses with the basic science research, and go back to clinical rotations. I am on good terms with my PI and could get a good letter of recommendation from him for residency apps if needed. Thanks so much for all the insight and reassurances that this won’t kill my residency chances, I really appreciate all the advice.

 

[tr]

Hi everyone,

I am a MSTP student considering quitting the PhD and returning to clinical rotations and am hoping from advice or stories from anyone who underwent anything similar. I did my first two years of med school and did ok with a mix of H/HP, then started the PhD years. I'm in my 3rd year of PhD research (5th year MSTP overall) and just failed my qualifying exam. I have several publications, but no first author scientific paper yet; all of my publications thus far have been 2 review articles (1st author), 1 case report (1st author), and some middle author scientific papers. Failing the qualifying exam is extremely rare at my school and I feel like such a failure for not passing. There may be an option to re-do the written and oral portions of the exam, but that's not guaranteed and my advisor at this point feels that it will take too long for me to finish the PhD (another 2-3 years), so he thinks it would be best for me to return to med school. I've had some bad luck regarding advisors- my PI left the university so I had to switch labs during my second year and now (2.5 years into the PhD) I feel as though I'm finally getting my stride and making good progress towards the PhD, but it seems to be too little, too late regarding the qualifying exam. I'm incredibly disappointed and hoping I can appeal and re-do the exam to be allowed to continue and finish the PhD, but am facing the reality that I may need to return to 3rd year of med school instead.

I want to continue the PhD if I'm allowed, but I am likely going to be asked to leave since I didn't pass the qualifying exam.

This doesn't make sense at all. It sounds like you have been performing reasonably well overall, your pub record sounds just fine for where you are at.

I don't know why you failed your quals but if it's just a fluke, why can you not just repeat the qualifying exam and finish the PhD if that's what you want to do?

I failed my qual the first time; I just switched topics and got rid of the problematic committee member, then passed no problem. Nobody suggested I should drop my program, just that I had been injudicious with topic/ committee selection (which was true).

Why is your PI telling you to go back to med school if you have a good relationship and your productivity has been good?

I agree with others that this is unlikely to be a career killer, but given you're saying you actually want to finish, this scenario of being forced out doesn't make sense to me unless there is some undisclosed issue (ethical breach, major incompatibility with PI, prior record of poor performance, or whatever).

 

[xcrunner01]

This doesn't make sense at all. It sounds like you have been performing reasonably well overall, your pub record sounds just fine for where you are at.

I don't know why you failed your quals but if it's just a fluke, why can you not just repeat the qualifying exam and finish the PhD if that's what you want to do?

I failed my qual the first time; I just switched topics and got rid of the problematic committee member, then passed no problem. Nobody suggested I should drop my program, just that I had been injudicious with topic/ committee selection (which was true).

Why is your PI telling you to go back to med school if you have a good relationship and your productivity has been good?

I agree with others that this is unlikely to be a career killer, but given you're saying you actually want to finish, this scenario of being forced out doesn't make sense to me unless there is some undisclosed issue (ethical breach, major incompatibility with PI, prior record of poor performance, or whatever).

I'm only funded for a 4-year PhD and my advisor and committee think that it will take too long (another 2-3 years) to complete the preclinical component of my project. Since I'm 3 years in already, I won't finish in time.

 

[StIGMA]

I'm only funded for a 4-year PhD and my advisor and committee think that it will take too long (another 2-3 years) to complete the preclinical component of my project. Since I'm 3 years in already, I won't finish in time.

If your PI took you into the lab, they should pay/find a way to pay for you to finish. Period. What did the MSTP director say?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I'm sorry you're not getting the support you need from your PI. I think you need to analyze what *that* relationship is suffering before anything else. Otherwise, your record thus far doesn't suggest that you're behind your peers and I see no reason to drop everything now rather than prepare the qualifying exam again and retaking. Only you know yourself as to whether this is a fluke and you're otherwise doing alright in lab, or the qualifying exam is more like one of a succession of small failures during the PhD.

My inclination would be to re-take the qualifying with a different, more favorable, committee, and take it from there.

 

[gutonc]

This has always been my major issue with grad school.

As the saying (that I may have made up) goes, med school is hard to get into, grad school is hard to get out of.

Once you start med school, the path is clear and relatively straightforward. Grad school OTOH is easy to start and really hard to finish.

If your qual failure is easy to remedy then go for it and press on. If it's not, or this isn't the only issue (you mentioned funding as a stumbling block) then tell them to suck it, get your MS and move on. Your career will be minimally (if at all) impacted by this.

 

[Duprass]

If your PI took you into the lab, they should pay/find a way to pay for you to finish. Period. What did the MSTP director say?

This. I am shocked your MD/PhD director is letting this happen.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

This. I am shocked your MD/PhD director is letting this happen.

Edited

 

[xcrunner01]

Hi all, thanks so much for all the advice. The MSTP director has been exceptionally helpful and I'm working with the program to sort this out.

 

[Guero]

Hi all, thanks so much for all the advice. The MSTP director has been exceptionally helpful and I'm working with the program to sort this out.

I read your OP and the replies of all of these highly qualified and concerned members. I'm so sorry you're going through this, pretty much each physician scientist's worst fear. I wish you the best of the luck and trust that you'll work it out. You're obviously highly motivated, intelligent, and deserving. I am curious to know how it eventually pans out, though. Would you mind returning to let us know?

Thanks, sending positive vibes through the fiber optics...