Failing Comps twice

[GoPokes]

So, with my own comps coming up in a couple of weeks, I'm experiencing a relatively healthy (emphasis on relatively) level of anxiety. As is the case with our program (and I would imagine every program) if we fail comps twice, we are dismissed from the program. Students in front of us who have matched for internship tell us that there's "no way" our faculty would fail us twice and kick us out after all the time, money, and effort invested in our training. I couldn't imagine being dismissed after all of the blood, sweat, and tears associated with graduate training. Perhaps its my morbid curiosity that has me asking, but have you ever heard of (or did someone in your program) ever fail comps twice and get subsequently dismissed?

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[goudagouda]

This happens in our program, although the percentage is very low. We are each randomly assigned a number for comps, so the grading is anonymous and the professors have no way of knowing who they are grading and whether they have failed once before. Therefore, the assurance that they would never allow that to happen after our years of hard work, money, etc just simply doesn't apply.

 

[cara susanna]

Yes, but not in the clinical program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Yes, but not in the clinical program.

Same. In this case, the person ended up transferring to another program at the same university but a different department and is continuing to be co-chaired by their former advisor, so I think it worked out okay, emotional trauma aside.

 

[soccercat]

In our program they claim to dismiss people after three fails, but I have seen them be lenient with this rule if they think the person has not had any academic difficulties up to that point and holds the ability to eventually graduate. If the person was struggling before then, then it is used as the final nail in the coffin to dismiss them.

 

[erg923]

I taught at a programn where this happened

 

[smalltownpsych]

So, with my own comps coming up in a couple of weeks, I'm experiencing a relatively healthy (emphasis on relatively) level of anxiety. As is the case with our program (and I would imagine every program) if we fail comps twice, we are dismissed from the program. Students in front of us who have matched for internship tell us that there's "no way" our faculty would fail us twice and kick us out after all the time, money, and effort invested in our training. I couldn't imagine being dismissed after all of the blood, sweat, and tears associated with graduate training. Perhaps its my morbid curiosity that has me asking, but have you ever heard of (or did someone in your program) ever fail comps twice and get subsequently dismissed?

Good luck with your comps. Anxiety can drive your thoughts into some pretty irrational places. I suggest that you worry more about failing the second time only if you have failed the first time. Anytime I start down the road to anxiety-driven irrational thoughts I get a mental image of Albert Ellis yelling at those thoughts that makes me laugh and helps to calm me a bit. Me and a couple colleagues in the doctoral program would even role play him a bit using our best impression skills. "So then you fail your comps (don't match, fail EPPP, final defense, etc.) and you tell yourself that you are not good enough and you will never be a psychologist and no one will ever love you and that feels awful and you feel like a horrible, terrible person!"
It is true that some people cannot make the grade to becoming a psychologist, that is the way it should be. I had fears about whether or not I could all along the way. Learning to manage that anxiety and remain rational is part of the training.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Good luck with your comps. Anxiety can drive your thoughts into some pretty irrational places. I suggest that you worry more about failing the second time only if you have failed the first time. Anytime I start down the road to anxiety-driven irrational thoughts I get a mental image of Albert Ellis yelling at those thoughts that makes me laugh and helps to calm me a bit. Me and a couple colleagues in the doctoral program would even role play him a bit using our best impression skills. "So then you fail your comps (don't match, fail EPPP, final defense, etc.) and you tell yourself that you are not good enough and you will never be a psychologist and no one will ever love you and that feels awful and you feel like a horrible, terrible person!"
It is true that some people cannot make the grade to becoming a psychologist, that is the way it should be. I had fears about whether or not I could all along the way. Learning to manage that anxiety and remain rational is part of the training.

While I agree that not everyone can/should be a psychologist, I'm not sure that all comps are a valid weeding tool. Frankly, they are my least favorite thing by far about my program--which I otherwise really like--because I think they represent things that we're never going to do in "real life" (e.g., write a 15 page research proposal in 8 hours on a specific topic that was deliberately chosen to have nothing to do with our research, with no access to the literature on said topic--I've done a lot of research, but I can say I've never done that, nor can I see myself doing it again).

 

[Ollie123]

I think a lot of comps systems are horribly designed. My program offers the opportunity to do a full-scale lit review instead, which I think is far more legitimate/useful (think Psych Bulletin article...not a meta-analysis of 15 studies....and DEFINITELY not anything to do with ravens). I didn't pursue it just because I was already behind on the timeline finishing my thesis and it could easily have pushed things further back.

I know some others where writing a full-scale grant application counts...so nearly everyone submits an F31. Of course,the major problem with these is they don't adequately test clinical knowledge (not that I'm convinced any "write 20 pages in 20 minutes" does either) so I can understand why they aren't more common.

I wouldn't get too worried about failing comps unless its very common in your program. I rarely hear of it happening anywhere and it has invariably been people who were struggling all along for various reasons.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Your comps sound a lot different than what we did. Ours was more of an in depth case conceptualization, history, treatment plan, and a recorded session of the case that we had to write up and defend. It was at least a face valid hoop to jump through.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Ours were similar smalltownpsych. Both a therapy and assessment case defense. Very similar to the ABPP boarding defense process. For as much anxiety that I had beforehand, it actually turned out to be an incredibly informative experience that provided a chance for me to receive feedback that I've continued to carry with me when sitting with clients.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Your comps sound a lot different than what we did. Ours was more of an in depth case conceptualization, history, treatment plan, and a recorded session of the case that we had to write up and defend. It was at least a face valid hoop to jump through.

This is how our comps were designed. I thought having a written case conceptualization and oral defense (along w. audio tapes) was a pretty good way to go. However, I think the last missing piece was some sort of essay section or broader test of knowledge.

 

[WisNeuro]

We had to answer essay questions in different areas (therapy, assessment, ethics, etc). Had a reading list before hand, which was about 50 books and 200 articles. Took about 6 hours to do. They changed it after I left, don't knwo what exactly they do now.

 

[deleted343839]

Where I trained, we didn't really do comps per se. In second year we had to complete an empirical research project, write it up as a master's thesis, and present our research to the clinical faculty and all of the clinical students, symposium style. We also did a full case presentation to the clinical faculty and students including case conceptualization, video clips, clinical outcome data, etc. We wrote papers and rather lengthy exams for each didactic course, so it would not have made sense (to me) to test again on the same content.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This is how our comps were designed. I thought having a written case conceptualization and oral defense (along w. audio tapes) was a pretty good way to go. However, I think the last missing piece was some sort of essay section or broader test of knowledge.

This was actually very similar to ours as well--in-depth case conceptualization, including a lit review of the condition(s) of interest and recent advances/thinking in those areas. Once the written material was submitted and accepted, there was an oral defense of the case, which included a certain number of "general knowledge" questions from seven or eight required topic areas (e.g., multicultural diversity, ethics, research methodology, etc.). Some of the general knowledge questions were tailored by the committee members to the case, while others were more generic. I enjoyed the process, as I learned quite a bit about the disease with which my particular patient had been diagnosed.

 

[smalltownpsych]

While I agree that not everyone can/should be a psychologist, I'm not sure that all comps are a valid weeding tool. Frankly, they are my least favorite thing by far about my program--which I otherwise really like--because I think they represent things that we're never going to do in "real life" (e.g., write a 15 page research proposal in 8 hours on a specific topic that was deliberately chosen to have nothing to do with our research, with no access to the literature on said topic--I've done a lot of research, but I can say I've never done that, nor can I see myself doing it again).

That is a very odd assignment. What do they glean from that? Your ability to just make crap up? That was definitely a more useful skill in undergrad courses where some of us may have done that from time to time.

 

[soccercat]

Wow, I'd take some of these comps over one of ours any day. We had to differential diagnose someone based off of one paragraph and take the examiners from pre-treatment considerations to termination with regards to options for EBTs, ethics, possible assessments with expected results, cultural/social considerations, etc. in an hour. No notes or DSM allowed. Basically like an internship interview vignette on crack. The grading is very tough and highly subjective. 30-50% of the students who take it every round fail. I get the desire to train us to think on our feet, but it's not realistic to expect someone so early in their career (it's at the midway point in our program) to be able to do all of that flawlessly.

 

[deleted343839]

We had to differential diagnose someone based off of one paragraph and take the examiners from pre-treatment considerations to termination with regards to options for EBTs, ethics, possible assessments with expected results, cultural/social considerations, etc. in an hour. No notes or DSM allowed.

Wow. That sounds like what I had to do at my oral examination for licensure.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

slightly off topic but…oral examination for licensure…ugh. The worst.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

slightly off topic but…oral examination for licensure…ugh. The worst.

T4C how was it in your state? From person to person I've heard it vary in terms of intensity and difficulty, with some saying it was essentially just questions regarding what area you are practicing in, while others have said it was a detailed oral ethics exam.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Detailed oral exam about various aspects of state ethics; it was super nit-picky. Compare that to my prior state, which was a checklist of items (diploma, EPPP score, etc)…and then my license magically showed up in the mail. Part of the reason I'm pursuing ABBP'ing is for the easier license portability…though I don't think that addresses any additional stuff like ethics testing.

 

[smalltownpsych]

slightly off topic but…oral examination for licensure…ugh. The worst.

Oral exam...ugh! Mine wasn't too bad but was extremely anxiety provoking. I am not sure if it was difficult or not as I just answered the questions to the best of my ability as a practicing psychologist (I was already licensed in another state that didn't have orals) and at the end of it they said congratulations you passed. I can't tell much about the questions because they swore me to secrecy on penalty of death or something worse like forfeiture of the license they granted! At one point I had a complete brain freeze and lost my entire train of thought. I used some of the great advice from one of my instructors about testifying in court and asked for the question to be repeated and then my brain started to work again.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I drove 3 hr through a snowstorm to do mine….it was ridiculous. The oral exams are only give a handful of times a year, and I had already waited a couple of months because they cap how many people can go per location/time, so I just wanted to be done with it. Only one of the two examiners made it, so it had to be audio-recorded in case there was a dispute about passing (there wasn't). /Adventures In Licensure

 

[WisNeuro]

I drove 3 hr through a snowstorm to do mine….it was ridiculous.

Was it uphill...both ways?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Was it uphill...both ways?

I told one of my fellows that story last year and she said the same thing. It was like a bad joke. I got on the road by 5:30am because I figured it would take awhile w. the weather. I had a phone #, but I didn't know if it was a cell #, office #, etc. I remember sitting in my car afterwards going, "Great..now you are licensed (again)…but you still have to drive 3+ hr home!"

 

[473912]

I know all these exams can try your nerves, but god... I can't wait to go through all that stress. lol. BRING IT ON!

 

[cara susanna]

I know all these exams can try your nerves, but god... I can't wait to go through all that stress. lol. BRING IT ON!

Oh, sweet summer child.

 

[boomshakalaka]

Wow, I'd take some of these comps over one of ours any day. We had to differential diagnose someone based off of one paragraph and take the examiners from pre-treatment considerations to termination with regards to options for EBTs, ethics, possible assessments with expected results, cultural/social considerations, etc. in an hour. No notes or DSM allowed. Basically like an internship interview vignette on crack. The grading is very tough and highly subjective. 30-50% of the students who take it every round fail. I get the desire to train us to think on our feet, but it's not realistic to expect someone so early in their career (it's at the midway point in our program) to be able to do all of that flawlessly.

Almost identical to my comps. Although it was pain to study prepare for, it really helped out on internship interviews.

 

[President_LeslieKnope]

Wow really interesting to hear how much comps vary across programs. My program doesn't offer comps, instead they have an oral preliminary exam as part of your dissertation (3 meetings: proposal, prelim (comps), and defense). The prelim is pretty difficult (depending on your committee though I guess) in that you are grilled about your dissertation for 2 hours but you can also be asked anything about any topic in psychology as well. Most of the time the committee won't stray TOO far from your research project, but mine personally got away from my dissertation a good bit. I spaced and panicked and I ended up failing and having to redo it again. Luckily I passed with flying colors the second time since our program similarly only allows you 2 attempts to pass your prelims. The consensus, though, is that if you fail the first time, as long as you show improvements, they aren't likely to fail you again. We all complain about this process since there is no continuity across individuals (it really is contingent on your committee) but reading all of the above responses makes me feel (a little) grateful about our process!

 

[LAPsyGuy]

My program has both clinical (a case conceptualization, annotated session transcript, intake, and oral exam) and an assessment comps. It doesn't seem possible to fail the assessment comps, but people have failed out of the clinical. My program will also hold students back from going to external prac sites as well.

It sounds like some programs' comps are aimed at research, some at assessing readiness for internship, and some at passing the EPPP.

 

[Marissa4usa]

Wow, after reading all of this, I guess I consider myself lucky. My program expects us to write a review paper on a topic of our interest in manuscript style that could be publishable in a review journal.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My program has both clinical (a case conceptualization, annotated session transcript, intake, and oral exam) and an assessment comps. It doesn't seem possible to fail the assessment comps, but people have failed out of the clinical. My program will also hold students back from going to external prac sites as well.
It sounds like some programs' comps are aimed at research, some at assessing readiness for internship, and some at passing the EPPP.

I forgot about the assessment comps. How many hoops did we have to jump through?

Wow, after reading all of this, I guess I consider myself lucky. My program expects us to write a review paper on a topic of our interest in manuscript style that could be publishable in a review journal.

From my educational experience, that sounds more like little more than a course assignment as opposed to a test of clinical competency.

 

[LAPsyGuy]

I forgot about the assessment comps. How many hoops did we have to jump through?

.

Just the testing, report writing, and feedback, plus lots of rewriting and very very supervision. Two reports, one for feedback and one for the clinician.