First Year Salary Survey

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mirk3 said:
Gosh this guy is scaring me; I was really considering dentistry and this guy is portraying dentistry as a completely different profession from what I thought. I have heard too many stories like this. Good bye dentistry.
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I can't speak for general dentists, but I don't think that *everybody* is in the same boat as this guy.
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mrlantern said:
IFor the day I did 30 fillings, that was a good day in quantity. ( how could 30 fillings be crazy if pediatric dentists see 50 patients/day? )
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We see 50+ patients, but that doesn't mean we are doing fillings on 50 patients. 20 of those could be operative, with the other 30 being hygiene checks after the hygienist or assistant does the real work.

I won't get into how much quicker pedo restorations are than adult dentition restorations, but they are.
 
Slack3r said:
Yea, but who the f*** wants to live in Arkansas or Enid, OK or Texas?
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Welcome to the real world, where you CAN live in Manhattan or Orange County, but you'll be poor as dirt and barely make your minimum loan payments. If you simply must live by the ocean, then so be it, but 60% of the guys you graduated with have the same game plan.

Or, you could set up in a midwestern state in a small city that is surrounded by 3-4 other small cities, and you'll make money hand over fist. Not only that, but you'll get paid in cash, have a low no-show rate, and much of the community will hold you in high esteem.

Both are options, you new grads have a choice to make. Don't forget that dentistry is also a business, which necessitates wise business decisions. A dental degree does not equate to a license to print money IF the choices you make are poor business choices.

Choices that can improve your business:

1) Specialize. Some specialties are doing better than others, but the greater education gives you a little corner on the market for doing things that general dentists can't or won't.

2) Find a niche. If you have to be a general dentist, then find a niche you can excel in that nobody else does. This ranges from 6 month orthodontics to special needs patients. It is in your best interest to set yourself apart from the other guys in the phone book

3) Practice in a semi-rural area. It doesn't have to be the middle of nowhere, but that couldn't hurt. MANY people would visit the dentist but can't because the nearest guy is 40 miles away. Even better, be a specialist in these areas where the nearest guy is 100 miles away.

4) Recognize that you don't deserve anything. Be humble, work hard. You aren't guaranteed a huge and lucrative patient base from day 1. Don't compromise your integrity. If you have to take a job where you are doing sub-par work then you are failing the patients and yourself.
 
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Slack3r said:
Yea, but who the f*** wants to live in Arkansas or Enid, OK or Texas?
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These are exactly the types of communities I'll be looking for when job finding time comes around. Low cost of living, small-medium sized communities, relatively close to large cities, ridiculously high population to dentist ratio.

My question is who in their right mind would want to live in southern California?
 
armorshell said:
These are exactly the types of communities I'll be looking for when job finding time comes around. Low cost of living, small-medium sized communities, relatively close to large cities, ridiculously high population to dentist ratio.

My question is who in their right mind would want to live in southern California?
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My question is who in their right mind would want to live in the Midwest/South? What're you going to spend all that money you're making on, a new tractor?
 
Slack3r said:
My question is who in their right mind would want to live in the Midwest/South? What're you going to spend all that money you're making on, a new tractor?
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You always admire what you really don't understand.
 
armorshell said:
These are exactly the types of communities I'll be looking for when job finding time comes around. Low cost of living, small-medium sized communities, relatively close to large cities, ridiculously high population to dentist ratio.

My question is who in their right mind would want to live in southern California?
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Exactly.

I'm not going to leave California (or NYC)... But I cannot find work, let alone I'm paying thousands for a dumpy place. Hey, I live in Cali though!!!
 
My dad's dental practice hired a new associate right out of Creighton's dental school and he made 80,000 for the first year and 30% after that.
 
Excellent discussion and mature. i am very surprised for SDN.

Anyway, I had to refuse all offers so far. They were all corporate dental and wanted me to produce, meaning people were not not people but wallets with teeth.

I have an interview for a private practice with someone willing to mentor me and possibly buy in with a $110k base salary. He sounds like a genuine person willing to take care of a patient and hopefully the interview goes well.

Like I said I have turned down higher offers but it seems like a setup for malpractice.
 
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armorshell said:
Have you ever been to the midwest or south?
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Lived in Houston, TX for 6 years and Birmingham, AL for 2 years. And my entire dad's family is from the South. So yes, I have been.

armorshell said:
Here's what you can afford in LA:
http://tour.circlepix.com/tour.htm?id=678150

Here's what you can afford in Enid:
http://www.century21.com/property/in...%20%2034998244
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Well, real estate is all about location, location, location. Who cares if you have a huge house if you live in bum f*** Oklahoma? And my uncle bought a very nice condo in Laguna Beach several years ago (right about when the housing market was peaking) for just under $400k. Look in the right places and Cali is still quite affordable.
 
Slack3r said:
Lived in Houston, TX for 6 years and Birmingham, AL for 2 years. And my entire dad's family is from the South. So yes, I have been.



Well, real estate is all about location, location, location. Who cares if you have a huge house if you live in bum f*** Oklahoma? And my uncle bought a very nice condo in Laguna Beach several years ago (right about when the housing market was peaking) for just under $400k. Look in the right places and Cali is still quite affordable.
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Location, Location, Location. Try and get a decent job in Cali.

You lived in the south, but how can you comment on the Midwest?
 
Slack3r said:
Well, real estate is all about location, location, location. Who cares if you have a huge house if you live in bum f*** Oklahoma? And my uncle bought a very nice condo in Laguna Beach several years ago (right about when the housing market was peaking) for just under $400k. Look in the right places and Cali is still quite affordable.
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You realize that quote is from a real estate sales point of view, right? You made my point for me. In LA, you pay for the location, and the home. In Enid, you pay for the home.

I can guarantee you, for anything you can find in LA, I'll find bigger and better in Enid.

Of course in Enid you probably have to pay for some pretty hefty tornado insurance. ;)
 
As someone who has been to Enid, it's not a bad little town...and by little I mean 40,000 or so people. I'd live there. My only complaint was the size of the screens at the movie theater were too small.
 
armorshell said:
You realize that quote is from a real estate sales point of view, right? You made my point for me. In LA, you pay for the location, and the home. In Enid, you pay for the home.

I can guarantee you, for anything you can find in LA, I'll find bigger and better in Enid.

Of course in Enid you probably have to pay for some pretty hefty tornado insurance.
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I think you're missing my point. While you have an enormous 5000sq. ft mansion in Enid, you can't go outside because wtf are you going to do in Enid, OK? While I may be living in a 900 sq. ft condo, I'll also be living in one of the main cultural hubs of the US. I dunno, to each their own...but for some people, the location matters much more than the house.

And I'll take earthquakes over tornadoes any day. :D

ItsGavinC said:
Affordable with a dentist on every corner. Good luck with that one.
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Noted. I do understand that there's a large oversaturation in SoCal. Who knows? I won't even matriculate to dental school for another 2 years anyway (potentially class of 2015) so maybe we'll begin to see that "dental shortage" everyone's been talking about? Either way, I still got Phoenix, AZ to fall back on, so I'm not too worried. :thumbup:
 
That is the correct mentality to some extent. It is wise to find out if the field you want to go into is going to be profitable, but if you are not even in dental school yet, things can change a whole lot by the time you graduate.

At the end of the day, the future of dentistry looks good.
 
Which might be a better option in general in the first year, keeping in view work satisfaction and reasonable salary satisfaction.

1. Private practice associate
2. Chain clinics offring benefits
3.Community Hospitals
 
Yea, but who the f*** wants to live in Arkansas or Enid, OK or Texas?
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Me.

Give me an x-star, a 2.5 day weekend, and a lake within a 2 hour drive and i'm happy.

Oh and i'm sporting my complimentary Oceans Dental lunchbox. haha
 
Last edited:
Is it just me or does Ocean Dental's "General Dentistry for Kids & Young Adults" slogan seem un-Kosher?
 
I'm Graduating in June and planning to look for a Job in SF Bay Area.

Which is the best approach?


  • Look for a job thru job boards
  • Find job thru agents
  • Directly apply to chain clinics like Western Dental, Smile Care etc
  • Getting help from friends and acquaintances to meet their dentists and apply for job
Appreciate your responses.
 
lotexigeus said:
Me.

Give me an x-star, a 2.5 day weekend, and a lake within a 2 hour drive and i'm happy.

Oh and i'm sporting my complimentary Oceans Dental lunchbox. haha
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And that's why the Land of 10,000 Lakes exists.
 
moral dentist said:
i'm graduating in june and planning to look for a job in sf bay area.

Which is the best approach?


  • look for a job thru job boards
  • find job thru agents
  • directly apply to chain clinics like western dental, smile care etc
  • getting help from friends and acquaintances to meet their dentists and apply for job
appreciate your responses.
Click to expand...


all the above!!!
 
moral dentist said:
I'm Graduating in June and planning to look for a Job in SF Bay Area.

Which is the best approach?


  • Look for a job thru job boards
  • Find job thru agents
  • Directly apply to chain clinics like Western Dental, Smile Care etc
  • Getting help from friends and acquaintances to meet their dentists and apply for job
Appreciate your responses.
Click to expand...

Western dental,Pacific dental etc seem to have openings.Recruiters are also okay.Job portals offer a wide range of choice of place,practice and pay.
 
Thanks to Daurang & DENTEYE.

I'm going to try all the options but i wish to know if some one can share their experiences with each of the options.


DENTEYE said:
Western dental,Pacific dental etc seem to have openings.Recruiters are also okay.Job portals offer a wide range of choice of place,practice and pay.
Click to expand...
 
moral dentist said:
Thanks to Daurang & DENTEYE.

I'm going to try all the options but i wish to know if some one can share their experiences with each of the options.
Click to expand...

From job portals interested people-recruiters/individual practices depending on the preference you mention contact you.Some offer working interview on phone or on site.It will be easy if you have a geographic preference and salary number in mind. Yes there are still sizeable jobs for dentists in spite of economic recession.You can even do body shopping visiting your area dental clinics.Generally the chain clinics have openings in one or the other.Journals are the other source.Where exactly are you looking at?
 
lotexigeus said:
too cold up north. I like it hot.
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Don't forget the many ADHP's MN will start cranking out here in 2011.

I'd really like to know why rural areas are so much more lucrative than urban areas? I've heard a few reasons, with the following being the major one.

1) Cities are saturated with dentists...hence more competition.

...But there's also more people living in the city too.

Are people who live rural less likely to have dental insurance than people in the city? Are people who live rural more likely to have more money than people in the city?

I'm trying to convince my wife that my best bet is to start a dental practice in a rural area, but need some good, valid arguments. Help me out.
 
KOM said:
Don't forget the many ADHP's MN will start cranking out here in 2011.

I'd really like to know why rural areas are so much more lucrative than urban areas? I've heard a few reasons, with the following being the major one.

1) Cities are saturated with dentists...hence more competition.

...But there's also more people living in the city too.

Are people who live rural less likely to have dental insurance than people in the city? Are people who live rural more likely to have more money than people in the city?

I'm trying to convince my wife that my best bet is to start a dental practice in a rural area, but need some good, valid arguments. Help me out.
Click to expand...

Bribe her with the gifts you can buy her with a rural salary
 
lotexigeus said:
Me.

Give me an x-star, a 2.5 day weekend, and a lake within a 2 hour drive and i'm happy.

Oh and i'm sporting my complimentary Oceans Dental lunchbox. haha
Click to expand...


count me in

cept I'll take a VLX instead :cool:
 
Slack3r said:
Either way, I still got Phoenix, AZ to fall back on, so I'm not too worried. :thumbup:
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Phoenix is is getting saturated, and the economy isn't helping. Some dentists are walking away and locking the doors, leaving all the equipment in the building. Of course, things may be different in 6 years when you are out.
 
moral dentist said:
I'm Graduating in June and planning to look for a Job in SF Bay Area.

Which is the best approach?


  • Look for a job thru job boards
  • Find job thru agents
  • Directly apply to chain clinics like Western Dental, Smile Care etc
  • Getting help from friends and acquaintances to meet their dentists and apply for job
Appreciate your responses.
Click to expand...

Ideally you'd already have a job by now. In my opinion, if you are a brand new dentist, fresh out of school with literally nothing to offer over the next guy that wants the job, then you can't do the job hunt too early. In this economy I don't think March is too early to start this. I started my job hunt in late October.

The approach that works best will depend on what you are looking for. If you want a job to pay the bills then applying to a chain will work. If you are looking for a smaller starting income and a dentist to mentor you with hopes of a partnership/buy-in in the future, then you'll have to network and personally reach out to dentists.
 
KOM said:
I'm trying to convince my wife that my best bet is to start a dental practice in a rural area, but need some good, valid arguments. Help me out.
Click to expand...

Go to Dentaltown message boards and search for threads about this topic. You'll find MANY guys saying this is the way to go and that they are booked solid and having a wonderful time.
 
DENTEYE, thanks again for the responses.

My husband works in San Francisco Bay Area and I would like to find a job in the same area.

I researched my options in the weekend and decided to keep the chain clinics as the last option. I'm planning work on the other options for now but with the board exams around the corner I may not fully concentrate on the job hunt for few weeks.

Ideally what I'm looking for is a good practice with dentist, who can mentor, guide and share his knowledge with me. It might seem like too much to ask and may look very optimistic too but I'll agree with "ItsGavinC" that I'm OK with smaller starting income and a dentist to mentor with hopes of a partnership/buy-in in the future

DENTEYE said:
From job portals interested people-recruiters/individual practices depending on the preference you mention contact you.Some offer working interview on phone or on site.It will be easy if you have a geographic preference and salary number in mind. Yes there are still sizeable jobs for dentists in spite of economic recession.You can even do body shopping visiting your area dental clinics.Generally the chain clinics have openings in one or the other.Journals are the other source.Where exactly are you looking at?
Click to expand...
 
ItsGavinC, thanks for the response and your advice.

Please check my above response to "DENTEYE"


ItsGavinC said:
Ideally you'd already have a job by now. In my opinion, if you are a brand new dentist, fresh out of school with literally nothing to offer over the next guy that wants the job, then you can't do the job hunt too early. In this economy I don't think March is too early to start this. I started my job hunt in late October.

The approach that works best will depend on what you are looking for. If you want a job to pay the bills then applying to a chain will work. If you are looking for a smaller starting income and a dentist to mentor you with hopes of a partnership/buy-in in the future, then you'll have to network and personally reach out to dentists.
Click to expand...
 
moral dentist said:
ItsGavinC, thanks for the response and your advice.

Please check my above response to "DENTEYE"
Click to expand...

If I were you, I'd write some letters, explaining what you are looking for, and also attach a CV. Mail them to all dentists in the area you are looking in. Use the phone book, as well as ADA.org, and also any local dental society to get address information. Sending 150-200 isn't out of the question.

I'm a specialist, but I sent ~80 letters out last October. I got 13 responses and 6 job interviews based on those responses (I only chose to go to 6 interviews).
 
there's nothing more stressful on a marriage than financial stress. If you're graduating with lots of debt, don't have a family member in dentistry, and looking to make a living doing what you consider to be ethical dentistry stay the hell away from big cities... especially the ones with a dental school pumping out new dentists in an already saturated market.
 
@ Moral dentist

SF bay area is super saturated agreeing fully with PieTrodd. So the job search cant be traditional. Openings will obviously be limited for an early career dentist. If urban has more population well it also has more distances before you find your office.Nevertheless as Gavin put it you might definitely find one practice out of those n numbers. Volume of offices in Bay area may weigh over the disadvantage of Bay area saturation and entry level.Community health centers may also be looked at if willing to travel.Yes chain clinics can be your last resort though they are the ones with more openings.
 
Hot off the ADA press...

2007 Survey of Dental Practice – Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry (April 2009)

Incomes of owner general practitioners increased 2.3% from 2005 to 2006 according to this new report published by the ADA Survey Center. "Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry," the first report published from the ADA's 2007 Survey of Dental Practice, shows that in 2006 GPs earned an average net income of $202,930 while specialists' average net income was $329,980 in that year. From 2002 to 2006, general practitioners net incomes have increased 16.4% while specialists' incomes have grown by 13.3% during that same time period.
 
when you guys say sf bay area is saturated, how far out are we talking about? Out to san ramon? Or walnut creek?
 
KOM said:
Don't forget the many ADHP's MN will start cranking out here in 2011.

I'd really like to know why rural areas are so much more lucrative than urban areas? I've heard a few reasons, with the following being the major one.

1) Cities are saturated with dentists...hence more competition.

...But there's also more people living in the city too.

Are people who live rural less likely to have dental insurance than people in the city? Are people who live rural more likely to have more money than people in the city?

I'm trying to convince my wife that my best bet is to start a dental practice in a rural area, but need some good, valid arguments. Help me out.
Click to expand...
The solution to your puzzle is that the two populations (dentists vs. general population) do not grow proportionally. In a rural town of ten thousand you might have three dentists. If you multiply that by 100 to get a city of one million (Indianapolis, for example), you end up with a population of dentists that is far more than the 300 you would need to maintain an identical dentist:patient ratio. This results in less favorable demographics and more intraprofessional competition for a proportionally smaller patient pool. Does that make sense?
 
if you think California and New York are super saturated with dentists you guys are wrong. District of columbia is extremely saturated....

According to Kaiser Permanante statistics ( source : ADA ) :

US national average of DENTISTS per 1000 people - 0.8

lets take US national avg as reference point - 0.8


states above 0.8 :

Alaska 0.8
Colorado 0.8
Idaho 0.8
Illinois 0.8
Kentucky 0.8
Michigan 0.8
Minnesota 0.8
Montana 0.8
New Hampshire 0.8
Pennsylvania 0.8
Utah 0.8
Vermont 0.8
Virginia 0.8
Connecticut 0.9
Maryland 0.9
New York 0.9
Washington 0.9
California 1.0
Hawaii 1.0
Nebraska 1.0
New Jersey 1.0
Massachusetts 1.1
Dist of Columbia 1.5

Below national avg: <0.8


Arkansas 0.5
Delaware 0.5
Georgia 0.5
Mississippi 0.5
Texas 0.5
Indiana 0.6
Kansas 0.6
Louisiana 0.6
Maine 0.6
Missouri 0.6
New Mexico 0.6
North Carolina 0.6
North Dakota 0.6
Oklahoma 0.6
South Carolina 0.6
South Dakota 0.6
West Virginia 0.6
Wyoming 0.6
Arizona 0.7
Florida 0.7
Iowa 0.7
Nevada 0.7
Ohio 0.7
Oregon 0.7
Rhode Island 0.7
Tennessee 0.7
Wisconsin 0.7


look at nebraska, california, new jersey, hawaii, D.C they are all RELATIVELY SATURATED .....by 0.2 dentists per 1000 population than national avg.

so in that case better not move into these states...
 
DENTEYE, Gavin & Others,

Thanks again for the responses.

Yes, SF bay area is indeed saturated and with this economy it is even more difficult to find job but i hope it is not gloomy.

Due to family commitment I cannot move out of the SF Bay Area, if the jobs are scare in places like Redwood City, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, San Jose or Fremont. I'm OK commute little bit outer like Dublin, Pleasonton, Castro valley, Concord etc.

Right now I so busy with WREB but looks like I have to get serious with my job search.

DENTEYE said:
@ Moral dentist

SF bay area is super saturated agreeing fully with PieTrodd. So the job search cant be traditional. Openings will obviously be limited for an early career dentist. If urban has more population well it also has more distances before you find your office.Nevertheless as Gavin put it you might definitely find one practice out of those n numbers. Volume of offices in Bay area may weigh over the disadvantage of Bay area saturation and entry level.Community health centers may also be looked at if willing to travel.Yes chain clinics can be your last resort though they are the ones with more openings.
Click to expand...
 
comparing DC (a city) to entire states is a bit unfair. no one said rural california or rural new york is saturated. i bet if you compared LA, SF, and NYC, you would find them each more saturated than DC.


akg said:
if you think California and New York are super saturated with dentists you guys are wrong. District of columbia is extremely saturated....
Click to expand...
 
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