FMGs without a spot

[futuredoc15]

basically what many of you are saying is my career SHOULD be over. so as to why i hope it happens to each and every one of you just so you know exactly what you are saying to me.

turquioseblue,
You have to be careful here since IMO SDN is filled with megalomaniac moderators who us Orwellian type censorship to close threads and ban and intimidate posters who post things that are not in keeping with the biases and views of the moderators. IMO smq123 particularly has a quick trigger for moving threads, closing threads, and banning posters she does not like.
Sort of like 1984 "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

---

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[turquoiseblue]

turquioseblue,
You have to be careful here since IMO SDN is filled with megalomaniac moderators who us Orwellian type censorship to close threads and ban and intimidate posters who post things that are not in keeping with the biases and views of the moderators. IMO smq123 particularly has a quick trigger for moving threads, closing threads, and banning posters she does not like.
Sort of like 1984 "Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

thanks for noticing that too ;D
i thought this was a free country with freedom of speech and thought, but not here obviously!

so back to the topic.....why do fmg's on visas who want to go back to their country get in over US citizens who want to stay in the US? PD's want 'the best' to get through their program, but they probably don't care if they leave or not because they never ask them that.

 

[142348]

Turquoise,

As a senior resident, you may or may not take my advice as it's apparent from your posts you won't listen to reason. 1 senior poster might be wrong, maybe 2, but when this many repeatedly tell you something, there's probably some validity to it.

1. You LEFT 2 residencies. I've read enough of your posts and heard your self-benefiting excuses. If I were a PD evaluating candidates you would immediately be at the bottom of the pile because why would I take the risk. There's very little you can do other than try to find a program that doesn't fill, ingratiate yourself to the PD and attendings and hope that they dont match the following year. Otherwise, it's unlikely you will ever get a spot.

2. Some people, regardless of having the MD/DO, will never practice. You may be be one of these people and should start accepting it. Coming onto an online forum trying to pick fights in forums that have nothing to do about your are a waste of time.

3. Don't ever wish what has happened to you on someone else. What kind of person would do that?

It's pretty obvious from your recent posts that you don't feel anyone supports you including your family. Maybe you should work on fixing those real life support systems before reaching out for support on SDN which doesn't amount to much.

 

[Gordon Sims]

Ok.

Here are a few thoughts.

1) This thread has gone far off topic. TurquoiseBlue, I would appreciate it if you didn't turn this thread (or this forum) into your personal soapbox on your difficulties in finding a residency. It appears that other posters feel similarly. If you are unable to do that, I will have to close this thread.

2) TurquoiseBlue - if you do not like what others say to you on SDN, your solutions are to talk about something else, stop posting on SDN, or just not visit SDN at all.

Now, either we return discussion to the original point, and stop this TurquoiseBlue-centric discussion, or the thread gets closed.

Thanks.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Permanent resident is a legal term. It basically means a green card. It has nothing to do with extraordinary ability. It means you are not here on a temporary, visa basis.

Residency slots are allocated based on anticipated healthcare demand for trained physicians (not residents). So it is contemplated that everyone we give a residency slot to is going to practice here. If someone is less likely to practice here, then they should be less likely to get a spot. Which is why it's appropriate for citizens and permanent residents to get first dibs. They aren't going anywhere. The IMGs the OP described are. So they should be absolutely last on line for the spots. That's really all there is to it. I have no problem with folks who immigrate here on a permanent basis ending up with residency slots. But it is problematic when people come here on very temporary visa status, already with plans to leave post-training, and take residency slots that have been allocated and funded because of US patient need for those physicians once they complete residency. In such case I don't think anyone cares if this is the smartest and best doctor in the world, he doesn't get the spot because he's not going to fulfill what the residency slot was intended.

I rather suspect that the poster who described themselves as getting a permanent VISA based on their extraordinary ability had received an O Visa and then converted it to permanent residency.

As far as the rest, it is not so simple. I have worked with many dozens of pediatric residents and pediatric subspecialty fellows who came to the US on J or H VISAs. At the time of coming, they mostly are unsure if they will return. Hospitals give them a residency or fellowship slot due to their talent and how they will contribute to the hospital/med school and the reasonable expectation than most will stay. The relatively few who return are sometimes considered as part of the globalization of American health care education and not as a real problem. The situation is more complex that this, but it is not true in my personal experience that residents and specialty fellows are "expected" to stay, although most will.

I would add, that in my personal opinion, and only my opinion, some training slots in the US for pediatric subspecialists SHOULD be given to those who will return to their native country and practice. Many if not most countries have no ability to properly provide this training and the returnees have made huge contributions to pediatric health care throughout the world.

 

[MiniNMD]

I would add, that in my personal opinion, and only my opinion, some training slots in the US for pediatric subspecialists SHOULD be given to those who will return to their native country and practice. Many if not most countries have no ability to properly provide this training and the returnees have made huge contributions to pediatric health care throughout the world.

I sort of share this personal opinion. I would add that with the increasing interest in global health it can be a good learning experience to have colleagues from underserved countries. Not to mention that these people can become leaders in global health and may create opportunities for AMGs to train in places they may not have otherwise been exposed to. Just my two cents.

 

[Rheumella]

I have two FMG acquaintances who did not match and did not scramble successfully.

I'm sorry this thread turned into what it has. My two colleagues are headed in opposite directions at this point. One will be going to work for an MCAT prep company and the other is going back to Lebanon to try to get post-graduate training (probably research). I have no doubt that they will be great docs someday.

I have a better understanding of the lack of training opportunities there are in other countries. It would be nice if we could all have the training we desire. There is certainly no lack of sick people no matter where you are.

 

[turquoiseblue]

sorry to reroute the thread. carry on on your discussion, but just wanted to apologize for stooping so low as to wish my adversity on others and getting upset. i really wish the best for everyone and actually wouldn't want to wish this to even my worst enemy. i don't usually say stuff like that. it is pouring like crazy, lightining, and thundering outside and my lights just got busted so im really scared. i hope nothing bad will happen to me or anyone else for saying what i said.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Why don't you guys just ban Turquoise for being a troll?

 

[Gordon Sims]

Why don't you guys just ban Turquoise for being a troll?

 

[turundu]

....I rather suspect that the poster who described themselves as getting a permanent VISA based on their extraordinary ability had received an O Visa and then converted it to permanent residency....

I meant a "Green Card", fortunately I was very productive during my 4-years research fellowship (pubs, awards, grants, etc), that I was granted the benefit to stay in the U.S. for my residency training:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=816a83453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

I realized that hospitals are hardly sponsoring H-1b visas (working visas) for foreign doctors, making things even more difficult for those interested in surgical residencies (J-1/H1-b visas last for 7/6 years respectively). Also, depending on your nationality visas length vary from 1-3 years, in my case it represented a lot of $$$ getting back every year to renew the stamp on my passport.

Although my long term goal is returning, in terms of practicality, it was logical that applying for a permanent residency was the next step.

.... I would add that with the increasing interest in global health it can be a good learning experience to have colleagues from underserved countries. Not to mention that these people can become leaders in global health and may create opportunities for AMGs to train in places they may not have otherwise been exposed to. Just my two cents....

Agree, and it's already happening in some U.S. med schools. Here, the outcome's been fabulous and becoming more popular every year. Throughout this approach, both countries are benefiting tremendously. I think is important to raise "cultural awareness" among doctors.

 

[Rocketman90251]

The are multiple issues at play here:

There was a time not long ago when the US needed Foreign doctors (both FMG and IMG) to complete the complement of residents this country needed. However, US schools responded by increasing enrollment and new medical schools being formed. The question now arises as to whether we should allow FMG/IMG into the system now. I mean if we are giving out visas based on need and there isn't a need something seems wrong. While some may argue that the spots many FMG/IMG take are less desirable, I think soon enough AMGs will have to look at those positions as well.
At some point, I know someone has done the math but I dont remember exactly, the number of AMG graduates=number of match spots at which point the match should be closed off to FMG/IMG in my opinion. First, there is no reciprocation in training meaning its highly unlikely that an AMG would want to go to India, the Caribbean, etc. to get training and if for some reason they did, it would be extremely difficult. At some point we need to protect our own. As for Caribbean grads, if you couldn't get into an American/Canadian med school (have reciprocity), you really shouldn't expect open access to the match. Ideally pre-matches would be eliminated and the 1st match would be for AMG's only, followed by an AMG scramble with the remaining seats open to IMG/FMG applicants. This would protect the AMGs for who the match was designed.

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

 

[chocomorsel]

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

Yeah, except US citizens are not the only people who pay taxes. Permanent residents do as well I know that for a fact, because I was one for 10 years prior to becoming a citizen. They also let me join the military as a permanent resident. I don't know for sure about other types of residents/visitors/students/etc who legally reside in the U.S, but pretty sure if they work legally, they pay taxes as well.

So basically what you are saying is that those who pay into the tax pool should be awarded spots. That encompasses way more than just U.S citizens. Just an FYI.

 

[mama]

Yeah, except US citizens are not the only people who pay taxes. Permanent residents do as well I know that for a fact, because I was one for 10 years prior to becoming a citizen. They also let me join the military as a permanent resident. I don't know for sure about other types of residents/visitors/students/etc who legally reside in the U.S, but pretty sure if they work legally, they pay taxes as well.

So basically what you are saying is that those who pay into the tax pool should be awarded spots. That encompasses way more than just U.S citizens. Just an FYI.

True.

Some people live in a very small world that is no larger than probably 20 miles of where they live

 

[turquoiseblue]

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

i don't think even foreign countries would ever betray their own citizens the way the US does. and the PD's just use the foreign labor. That's all they want, they just want someone who did well on their usmle steps so they look good and avoid liability on an actual US citizen. they don't care where the person will decide to go in the end.

 

[mama]

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

Yet another disgruntled Carib grad perhaps? (No offense to any other Carib grads who worked hard, passed their USMLE's in the first attempt and matched).

I would rather have my mother treated by an IMG who knows what they are doing rather than a US citizen whose only claim to a residency spot is being a US citizen!! BTW, it is easy to become a US citizen, your parents or ancestors were lucky enough to get on the boat or flight to the US, had sex and voila you were born on US soil!!

The fact that you did not match despite having the advantage of having US citizenship means that there is something wrong with your application or maybe personality. First, you should get rid of your xenophobia if you want to practice as a physician in the USA. Instead of moaning on SDN, you should work on your application, board scores, etc

FYI, IMG's or anyone working in the US pay taxes, including those who come here on student visas. Go educate yourself before making a fool out of yourself!!

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Dont go to some unregulated bull**** off-shore Caribbean school then

 

[Ishie1013]

--------------------------

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Hey, wasn't my intention to compare board scores...

The purpose of that post was pretty much, if you want first dibs, best to go to a US MD/DO school... I can see you were insecure enough to bring up boards scores ... glad you had your 240s or 250s going pathology, too bad you wouldnt have needed that high a score if you were an AMG... that's my point.

Also, not everyone coming from a Carib school sucks, I met some who did and some who didn't while on interview trails. Anyways, congrats on your match, well deserved.

 

[tkim]

Hey, wasn't my intention to compare board scores...

The purpose of that post was pretty much, if you want first dibs, best to go to a US MD/DO school... I can see you were insecure enough to bring up boards scores ... glad you had your 240s or 250s going pathology, too bad you wouldnt have needed that high a score if you were an AMG... that's my point.

The irony is, as DO's we often have to have better grades, higher scores than our MD opposites to match in the same programs and specialties. Much like the IMGs.

We may have a slightly easier time than the IMGs, but our playing field is nowhere near level. Outside of the historically DO-friendly fields ... like gas, EM, and PMR, you know this to be true.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

The irony is, as DO's we often have to have better grades, higher scores than our MD opposites to match in the same programs and specialties. Much like the IMGs.

We may have a slightly easier time than the IMGs, but our playing field is nowhere near level. Outside of the historically DO-friendly fields ... like gas, EM, and PMR, you know this to be true.

Agreed. However, we do also have our AOA residency options, too, especially for those interested in surgical fields, radiology, etc.
Classmate of mine had no issues matching ACGME pathology, either.

 

[Ishie1013]

...........

 

[futIDdoc]

tkim-
If you want equal access to ACGME residencies, then open up the the osteopathic residencies to us.

 

[tkim]

tkim-
If you want equal access to ACGME residencies, then open up the the osteopathic residencies to us.

Neither you or I have the ability to change who the ACGME and AOA residencies allow in. So what's the point of your post?

 

[87DO15]

tkim-
If you want equal access to ACGME residencies, then open up the the osteopathic residencies to us.

I've seen this argument come up a lot, but I wonder if that would actually do anything. Would the historically DO-unfriendly ACGME residencies even care if MD grads were allowed to apply for AOA spots? I feel as though most ACGME surgery residencies and the top programs in all other residencies would still shut out DOs. They don't gain anything by having the AOA open up spots to everybody else, so you could still have DOs with great stats be on a lower-level come residency time.

I suppose what I'm saying is that there is no way to guarantee that by opening up AOA residencies to MD graduates, DOs will have equal access to ACGME residencies (or that MDs will have equal access to AOA residencies). I think that each group is still more likely to take care of their own, so in the end, I don't see much changing on either side.

If there was a way to completely remove all bias, then it would absolutely make sense to combine the matches. But do you think this could actually happen?

 

[142348]

You are completely missing the point. There should be zero preference for graduates of American Medical Schools over graduates of International Medical Schools. The preference should be for US Citizens over non US Citizens. Virtually all GME in the US is paid for by Medicare taxes. All positions paid for by Medicare should be restricted to US Citizens only unless the program can certify that they tried to fill the position with a US citizen and could not.

If a US citizen wants to go to med school in the US or Caribbean or France or Russia or wherever it should have no effect on his/her ability to get into a residency program.

It makes zero sense to have US citizen doctors unable to get into a residency program while thousands of foreigners take the positions and then return to their own country after the finish their residency.

All US Citizens should be guaranteed a residency position and then foreign citizens should compete for any remaining positions.

If a program wants to independently fund residency positions using hospital, not Medicare, money they should be able to pick whomever they want. However, so long as the US taxpayer is paying for the training the position should be restricted to US Citizens.

Problem is the vast majority of US citizen who leave aren't going to top flight med schools, they are using them because they couldn't get into an American med school. That to me is the key factor. US residencies should protect graduates of american med schools not because of tax funding but because it protects the graduates of their national schools the same way all other countries work. These residencies have a fidicuiary relationship with american med schools (not american citizens) in my opinon.

You state that we should protect the American citizen over the non-citizen. Why should we change the system when you didn't have the stats/CV/etc. to get into an American school?

 

[futIDdoc]

+1 for Wagy. No one would choose to go over seas if they held an acceptance in the US. Also, there is no way for the US medical system to guarantee a residency spot for every American citizen. What if tomorrow Ross or SGU decides to expand by 1000 seats and they are filled with mostly American students? Are we supposed to absorb them?

 

[87DO15]

+1 for Wagy. No one would choose to go over seas if they held an acceptance in the US. Also, there is no way for the US medical system to guarantee a residency spot for every American citizen. What if tomorrow Ross or SGU decides to expand by 1000 seats and they are filled with mostly American students? Are we supposed to absorb them?

They accepted 500+ for the January entering class this year, and they'll likely do the same for the fall (both graduate May 2015). Not all will pass, but SGU normally graduates a pretty large percentage of them. The residency crunch in 2015 is going to be brutal...

 

[turquoiseblue]

for acceptance into residency, why is it that only fresh grads, whether US citizen or not, are wanted even if the older grads have a lot of experience even residency experience? the older grads may know more than a fresh grad with their experiences. a criteria for residency is grad date. is that fair?

also, i used to see criteria for US citizenship out there but they are dwindling and many places don't even care about US clinical experience anymore. it is getting very easy for a non US citizen to get in.

additionally, many FMG's take their USMLEs after they graduate, whereas a carrib or US grad takes their boards during school with all the stress going on and don't have the same chance to score higher or improve their knowlege with a longer time to study. there's a little bit of an edge among nonUS citizens. they also become doctors at a very young age because many don't have to go through 4 years of college like the US, in pakistan or india, it is 10 years of high school, 2 years of college and then med school. they can practice for a while, learn a lot, take the boards and ace it unlike someone from the US or carrib who is forced to take the test within a few months. if you want to make board scores a criteria, shouldn't you measure a fairness factor into it and consider the situation a person was in when taking boards.

this is just my hypothesis of why fresh non US citizen FMG's are able to get in easier than US citizen IMG's or even some AMG's. correct me if im wrong.

 

[Colbert]

You're so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Law2Doc]

for acceptance into residency, why is it that only fresh grads, whether US citizen or not, are wanted even if the older grads have a lot of experience even residency experience? the older grads may know more than a fresh grad with their experiences. a criteria for residency is grad date. is that fair?...

I think it's less a function of being a "fresh grad" and more a function of "baggage". Someone fresh out of med school has no post-graduate baggage yet. What little you see on their CV is what they are -- residencies have a clean slate to work with, and places can focus on things like scores because there really don't have that much else of significance to focus on. Someone who has some US residency track record is no longer as easy an analysis. It then becomes an issue of how they did as residents, what their PD thought of them, whether they completed their contract, why they are available, why the place they were at didn't keep them, and so on. So it requires more inquiry, and there's a lot more that can spook them. That ends up being a lot more important than someone who is fresh and untrained. When someone has no track record, there is still a good chance he will work out. When someone has a track record, and it is not pristine, then you can't hold the same optimism that the person will work out. It becomes more of a gamble. And why bother to gamble if you can just get someone fresh.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

I would add, that in my personal opinion, and only my opinion, some training slots in the US for pediatric subspecialists SHOULD be given to those who will return to their native country and practice. Many if not most countries have no ability to properly provide this training and the returnees have made huge contributions to pediatric health care throughout the world.

That would be well and great if the spots were not created specifically because of demonstrated US need for each spot. The goal of residency is not international charity -- the government is not making each region prove the number of residents needed to serve the population only to give those spots to folks who will leave the country and make huge contributions elsewhere.

I think what you suggest is only reasonable if we were to chose to create separately funded "international" resident spots, rather than sacrifice current spots for which we have already demonstrated a US need. To decide that eg the US is going to need another 5 geriatricians in a decade due to the aging baby boomers, and so allocate additional residency spots and funds accordingly, only to turn around and have those slots given to someone who has no intention of practicing in the US is problematic. It's governmentally indefensible even if those folks ended up doing amazing things in their home countries.

 

[mama]

for acceptance into residency, why is it that only fresh grads, whether US citizen or not, are wanted even if the older grads have a lot of experience even residency experience? the older grads may know more than a fresh grad with their experiences. a criteria for residency is grad date. is that fair?

also, i used to see criteria for US citizenship out there but they are dwindling and many places don't even care about US clinical experience anymore. it is getting very easy for a non US citizen to get in.

additionally, many FMG's take their USMLEs after they graduate, whereas a carrib or US grad takes their boards during school with all the stress going on and don't have the same chance to score higher or improve their knowlege with a longer time to study. there's a little bit of an edge among nonUS citizens. they also become doctors at a very young age because many don't have to go through 4 years of college like the US, in pakistan or india, it is 10 years of high school, 2 years of college and then med school. they can practice for a while, learn a lot, take the boards and ace it unlike someone from the US or carrib who is forced to take the test within a few months. if you want to make board scores a criteria, shouldn't you measure a fairness factor into it and consider the situation a person was in when taking boards.

this is just my hypothesis of why fresh non US citizen FMG's are able to get in easier than US citizen IMG's or even some AMG's. correct me if im wrong.

Finally, the truth comes out, you are a Carib grad who probably went to one of those "medical schools" that was opened by your cousin and closed after you graduated. As far as I know there are only 4 decent medical schools in the Carib and the grads coming out of those schools tend to do well in terms of matching into competitive residencies.

You can argue all you want, the fact is that having US citizenship does NOT entitle you to a residency spot. According to your logic, you should have been accepted into a US medical school just because you are a US citizen!

You dropped out of 2 residencies and that is reason enough for the PD's not to rank you. You had your chance and blew it buddy. No one cares about what personal problems you had, you dropped out of TWO residencies!! Everyone will have problems and if you can't deal with them, you ain't fit to be a physician.

I knew an amazing resident who had cancer but still continued as a resident until few weeks before his death.

Stop moaning and blaming IMG's for YOUR incompetence. Judging by your posts, you are most likely not even born in the US and perhaps married a US citizen to get your citizenship.

 

[DrJosephKim]

They may want to consider pursuing a few non-clinical jobs while they continue to look for residency positions. Some viable options include: medical writing, drug safety, consulting, and pharmaceutical marketing.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

Good point, experience is often a sought after characteristic, which is why some IMG's are able to pre-match or match successfully. Unfortunately, this does not apply to you because you are obviously a liability to any program that would consider taking you since you have already left 2 programs for whatever reasons.

This was an interesting thread before you began your undying quest to engage everyone in your plight. Please stop posting.

for acceptance into residency, why is it that only fresh grads, whether US citizen or not, are wanted even if the older grads have a lot of experience even residency experience? the older grads may know more than a fresh grad with their experiences. a criteria for residency is grad date. is that fair?

also, i used to see criteria for US citizenship out there but they are dwindling and many places don't even care about US clinical experience anymore. it is getting very easy for a non US citizen to get in.

additionally, many FMG's take their USMLEs after they graduate, whereas a carrib or US grad takes their boards during school with all the stress going on and don't have the same chance to score higher or improve their knowlege with a longer time to study. there's a little bit of an edge among nonUS citizens. they also become doctors at a very young age because many don't have to go through 4 years of college like the US, in pakistan or india, it is 10 years of high school, 2 years of college and then med school. they can practice for a while, learn a lot, take the boards and ace it unlike someone from the US or carrib who is forced to take the test within a few months. if you want to make board scores a criteria, shouldn't you measure a fairness factor into it and consider the situation a person was in when taking boards.

this is just my hypothesis of why fresh non US citizen FMG's are able to get in easier than US citizen IMG's or even some AMG's. correct me if im wrong.

 

[MiniNMD]

additionally, many FMG's take their USMLEs after they graduate, whereas a carrib or US grad takes their boards during school with all the stress going on and don't have the same chance to score higher or improve their knowlege with a longer time to study.

oh please i know plenty of people who did quite well on the boards while in school because on top of taking a bit of time to focus for the exam (less than 4 weeks in most cases) they had studied well all along in school and learned a great deal. i only took 1 week out of my life to study for step 2 while i was in the middle of rotations and interviews and i did just fine.

there are many attributes that factor into what makes someone a good candidate for a residency spot. what is clear is that your lack of success is screaming that you just don't have what it takes right now and you're going around trying to blame everyone and everything but yourself. i don't think being on this board is helping you. i would get off SDN, ask people who look at applications for a living what's wrong with yours and figure out what you need to do. you may find that at this point people aren't going to let you be a physician anymore and if that's the case get over this and move on and find something else to do with your life. continually mulling over the reasons people are supposedly keeping you down won't get you anywhere.

 

[turquoiseblue]

oh please i know plenty of people who did quite well on the boards while in school because on top of taking a bit of time to focus for the exam (less than 4 weeks in most cases) they had studied well all along in school and learned a great deal. i only took 1 week out of my life to study for step 2 while i was in the middle of rotations and interviews and i did just fine.

there are many attributes that factor into what makes someone a good candidate for a residency spot. what is clear is that your lack of success is screaming that you just don't have what it takes right now and you're going around trying to blame everyone and everything but yourself. i don't think being on this board is helping you. i would get off SDN, ask people who look at applications for a living what's wrong with yours and figure out what you need to do. you may find that at this point people aren't going to let you be a physician anymore and if that's the case get over this and move on and find something else to do with your life. continually mulling over the reasons people are supposedly keeping you down won't get you anywhere.

 

[turquoiseblue]

Good point, experience is often a sought after characteristic, which is why some IMG's are able to pre-match or match successfully. Unfortunately, this does not apply to you because you are obviously a liability to any program that would consider taking you since you have already left 2 programs for whatever reasons.

This was an interesting thread before you began your undying quest to engage everyone in your plight. Please stop posting.

 

[turquoiseblue]

don't you med students and pre-health people have anything better to do than to attack me all day? does it make you feel better about yourselves to do that? sad.

 

[turquoiseblue]

I think it's less a function of being a "fresh grad" and more a function of "baggage". Someone fresh out of med school has no post-graduate baggage yet. What little you see on their CV is what they are -- residencies have a clean slate to work with, and places can focus on things like scores because there really don't have that much else of significance to focus on. Someone who has some US residency track record is no longer as easy an analysis. It then becomes an issue of how they did as residents, what their PD thought of them, whether they completed their contract, why they are available, why the place they were at didn't keep them, and so on. So it requires more inquiry, and there's a lot more that can spook them. That ends up being a lot more important than someone who is fresh and untrained. When someone has no track record, there is still a good chance he will work out. When someone has a track record, and it is not pristine, then you can't hold the same optimism that the person will work out. It becomes more of a gamble. And why bother to gamble if you can just get someone fresh.

i don't like this reasoning, because they use it as an excuse to throw away residents they don't like out of the pile forever. it happened to me it can happen to anyone. i have a coworker this happened to too. i mean everyone makes mistakes and not all people fit into particular programs. they don't care they jsut say fresh is what we want and thats all. that's like taking naivety. why not take someoen that actually knows what they're doing from the start...someone who already learned the ropes. they really shouldn't do what they're doing just due to some crazy philosophy that naive is better. i see what you're saying and i know it is a PD's philosophy, but it's not right at all. downright unfair.

 

[Law2Doc]

i don't like this reasoning, because they use it as an excuse to throw away residents they don't like out of the pile forever. it happened to me it can happen to anyone. i have a coworker this happened to too. i mean everyone makes mistakes and not all people fit into particular programs. they don't care they jsut say fresh is what we want and thats all. that's like taking naivety. why not take someoen that actually knows what they're doing from the start...someone who already learned the ropes. they really shouldn't do what they're doing just due to some crazy philosophy that naive is better. i see what you're saying and i know it is a PD's philosophy, but it's not right at all. downright unfair.

It may be unfair, but it's a pattern that holds true in multiple arenas. In my prior career, the folks with a couple of years of experience had to have decent portable business to land a new job, while newbies continued to get hired right out of law school at the same places. You will find this pattern over and over again in life. Experience is nice, but if it comes with baggage, then folks would rather start fresh. Doesn't mean there is no future, but it's usually more fruitful to accept the ways of the world and try to work within them, then to bemoan or reject them.

 

[Buzz Me]

No one would choose to go over seas if they held an acceptance in the US.

A lot of pre-meds become seduced by the idea of earning an MD over a DO (even if it means going to the Caribbean).

 

[34140]

A lot of pre-meds become seduced by the idea of earning an MD over a DO (even if it means going to the Caribbean).

This was definitely me, and I feel like I paid for it. I was told by a practicing DO that he was "looked down on" and made to feel less than adequate by his peers. I wish I had spoken to other DO's before taking his word. Turns out he feels this way about everyone. Plus my dad had it in his head that DO's have a lot of stigma and wanted me to be an MD instead.

At the end, it didn't matter, but if I had gone for a DO I probably would have stayed in the states.

 

[Ishie1013]

A lot of pre-meds become seduced by the idea of earning an MD over a DO (even if it means going to the Caribbean).

That's the route I took. I felt like it was about equivalent in stigma and people go to each for similar reasons. Because of the ability to participate in both matches though, that works as a significant advantage, plus the ability to stay local. I still tell people it's entirely a personal preference issue between Carib MD and DO if you're going to one of the big four Carribean schools. The match was quite kind to our school this year so it worked out well enough but it seems like DOs are securing great spots as well.

 

[silas2642]

The irony is, as DO's we often have to have better grades, higher scores than our MD opposites to match in the same programs and specialties. Much like the IMGs.

We may have a slightly easier time than the IMGs, but our playing field is nowhere near level. Outside of the historically DO-friendly fields ... like gas, EM, and PMR, you know this to be true.

I agree with the prior poster-- DO's have their own residencies that are not available to MD's, a fact osteopathic students are aware of before they matriculate. In addition, you guys can pre-match, which US allopaths cannot do.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel very much sympathy for osteopathic students who whine about how their allopathic colleagues "had it so much easier" matching into ALLOPATHIC residencies-- you signed up to be an osteopath, that's the bed you made, so deal with it.

 

[tkim]

I agree with the prior poster-- DO's have their own residencies that are not available to MD's, a fact osteopathic students are aware of before they matriculate. In addition, you guys can pre-match, which US allopaths cannot do.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel very much sympathy for osteopathic students who whine about how their allopathic colleagues "had it so much easier" matching into ALLOPATHIC residencies-- you signed up to be an osteopath, that's the bed you made, so deal with it.

Didn't ask for your sympathy, wasn't whining. Most allopaths would not want to do a DO residency except for the uber competitive specialties like derm and nsurg. And if you look at my posting history, you'll see that I have always supported a combined match, and an opening of DO residencies to MD students. So if you're looking for a whipping boy, it ain't me buddy. So kindly step back.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I agree with the prior poster-- DO's have their own residencies that are not available to MD's, a fact osteopathic students are aware of before they matriculate. In addition, you guys can pre-match, which US allopaths cannot do.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel very much sympathy for osteopathic students who whine about how their allopathic colleagues "had it so much easier" matching into ALLOPATHIC residencies-- you signed up to be an osteopath, that's the bed you made, so deal with it.

None of us were whining.
It's the FMGs/IMGs who are doing the whining.
I see that reading comprehension did you well.

 

[tkim]

None of us were whining.
It's the FMGs/IMGs who are doing the whining.
I see that reading comprehension did you well.

Yeah, I see the quality of Harvard psych residents has gone down the tubes.

 

[smq123]

Why is everyone so testy this week? Maybe it's the weather?

In any case, if you disagree with someone, please just disagree with the content of their posts. Comments about your impression of the person's intelligence, future ability as a resident, or quality of their future residency program aren't necessary.

Thanks.

 

[ozzidoc]

Permanent resident is a legal term. It basically means a green card. It has nothing to do with extraordinary ability. It means you are not here on a temporary, visa basis.

T

FYI. The O1 visa is a visa "of extraordinary ability" and can very quickly lead to a "green card", much more quickly than a direct perm res application.


(DoI: "Green Card" holder. 'tis not green though)