Former clinical psych PhD student suing Idaho State University

[existentialist4good]

FYI...here's the link: http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_73030c5e-37aa-5890-bfe3-710b43beffa4.html

Former international graduate student files suit against ISU

• By Debbie Bryce For the Idaho State Journal
• Updated18 hrs ago
• Comments

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A former graduate student at Idaho State University has filed a lawsuit against the school alleging discrimination. University officials declined to comment on the case Tuesday.

The case was filed in U.S. District Court last month on behalf of Jun Yu.

Yu is a citizen of the People’s Republic of China, but he lived in Pocatello from August of 2008 through late June of 2012.

In 2008, Yu was accepted into ISU’s graduate program seeking to obtain a doctorate in clinical psychology. During Yu’s fourth year in the program, John Landers was his supervisor for the fall 2011 PSYC 7748 Clinical Externship class at the Eastern Idaho Regional Medical Center.

The externship was not a required course, but Yu was recommended by the CTC to the externship to gain experience “critical for students to compete for national internships,” according to the complaint.

According to the contract, the externship was planned to last for one year.

But just two months into the externship, Landers dismissed Yu from the externship, alleging that Yu was “unable to grasp the communication nuances.” This was despite Yu meeting the English proficiency standards for admission at the university.

Yu received no prior, specific feedback regarding alleged areas of concern or remediation. Landers wrote that “this site could not afford to engage in remediation efforts” and he acknowledged that “daily feedback may have been too indirect.”

“I have consistently observed that Jun Yu is unable to grasp the communication nuances that are required to build rapport with difficult patients, administer standardized tests with difficult patients,” Landers wrote. “Given his desire to return to China and specialize in parent/child training, he is probably right where he needs to be in this regard. However, his deficits have made this practicum one that was not a good fit and placed him, patients, and psychology services at the hospital in a difficult position.”

According to the complaint filed by Ronaldo A. Coulter, an attorney with Idaho Employment Law Solutions, Yu completed English courses at ISU and even taught courses in English.

He also successfully presented and defended his dissertation, “A Clinical Trial of Behavioral Family Therapy in China” and the Clinical Training Committee reported that his academic and professional progress was satisfactory.

According to the complaint, Mark Roberts, director of Clinical Training at ISU, said “For all we knew things were going along swimmingly. So we were surprised when I got a phone call, and then a subsequent documentation (the dismissal letter) from Landers that Landers was going to dismiss him, and that that was not a choice.”

The complaint alleges that as a result of the unlawful discharge, Yu suffered the loss of an opportunity to gain an education in the field of his choice in a publicly funded university.

Yu also suffered the loss of a doctorate degree despite successfully defending his dissertation.

He is asking for readmission to the graduate program at ISU or to be able to complete the remaining practicums in the People’s Republic of China.

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[Ollie123]

Interesting issue, but information provided is quite confusing. It sounds like he was dismissed from a practicum, not an internship....so why did this prevent him from getting his degree? It sounds like his DCT was supportive and I wouldn't think leaving a practicum under those circumstances (or really any circumstances) would be an automatic dismissal from the program, though obviously a huge concern. If it WAS internship, I think formal remediation is required and I imagine he'll have a strong case.

I can certainly think of situations where language skills might render certain practicums inappropriate for someone. I have no idea if it was a legitimate issue here or not. The TOEFL is an extremely low bar, so passing that says very little about whether or not someone can communicate in English effectively enough to function as a clinician. The fact that this wasn't raised in earlier practicums is concerning, but again it could be an issue for that particular supervisor or just an inappropriate setting/population for this person to work with. Even the way it was framed by Landers seems to imply the latter (though who knows whether his standards are reasonable). I'm puzzled by the gap between dismissal from the practicum and dismissal from the program itself, as that seems the key issue and there is nothing presented to connect the two. In my program, it would have simply been "Okay, we'll find you something else" followed by a scramble to do so, a student who winds up matching a little further down their list due to having to admit they were dismissed from a practicum and that would have been the end of it...

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, agree with Ollie, confusing information. Doesn't sound like it was an internship. The say externship several times and not that it was not a requirement. Hard to havr a strong opinion about something without all of the facts.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The article is very poorly formulated.

practica v. internship
dismissed from the practica shouldn't mean dismissal from the program
Remediation?
Acceptance BACK into the program OR go back to China to complete the practica are incongruent issues….as he would still need to be granted a degree by ISU.

The author definitely needs to understand the process better, as his/her article is a slow train wreck of writing.

 

[cara susanna]

That's quite odd. I don't know why failing one practicum would be an automatic dismissal. Probation, sure.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I tried to find more info about the lawsuit to make sense of that trainwreck of a reporting job, but with little luck. I did skim an article Jin wrote; it was clear from what I read.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

My best guess is that the student was dismissed from the practicum site (despite not receiving any feedback about English proficiency up to that point), which was then possibly followed by his not matching to an internship site (and which is being linked directly to the externship dismissal), or resulted in his withdrawing from the program due to perceived inability to math/move forward/something. No clue. But unless he was outright dismissed from the program as a whole, or told that because of the practicum dismissal he couldn't apply for internship, I don't see how there's a case.

However, I will say that I know schools have lost lawsuits for "suddenly" dismissing doctoral students as they near the end of their training (e.g., at the dissertation defense) without having provided them any critical feedback up to that point. It's one reason why they have so many formal hurdles along the way (e.g., thesis, comps, dissertation, regular practicum assessments with formalized feedback, etc.).

 

[Ollie123]

Maybe there were visa or fellowship restrictions that limited the time in which he could complete the program? There are usually ways around that though...

We're really just speculating here...way more information will be necessary for any kind of official determination...

 

[PsyDr]

So the non-native speaker has difficulty with some aspects of language, supervisor is concerned that this impacts patients' care and dismisses him. Student sues.

BTW: a citizen from Country A is suing Country B because he believes he has the right to study his preferred field in a university funded by the citizens of country B.

Let that sink in.

 

[thewesternsky]

BTW: a citizen from Country A is suing Country B because he believes he has the right to study his preferred field in a university funded by the citizens of country B.

Let that sink in.

As far as I read, he wasn't actually suing the United States of America. What am I missing?

 

[futureapppsy2]

So the non-native speaker has difficulty with some aspects of language, supervisor is concerned that this impacts patients' care and dismisses him. Student sues.

BTW: a citizen from Country A is suing Country B because he believes he has the right to study his preferred field in a university funded by the citizens of country B.

Let that sink in.

According to the (admittedly subpar) info we have, the supervisor dismissed him without any warning or remediation and after he had successfully completed clinical placements and coursework in other settings (where communication would have also been key). There may be some info we don't have, of course, but this sounds sketchy on the part of supervisor/site.

 

[smalltownpsych]

At first glance, it sounds like a pretty good case. There are steps that can be taken to remediate these types of problems and if they weren't taken, then that is a problem. You shouldn't fire someone from taco bell without writing them up first. The teens I work with learn that. In fact, it frustrates them at times which has led to some good sessions about how to effectively manage difficult people or situations. It is surprising that a practicum supervisor who is a licensed psychologist would not know that. Also, wanted to add that the paper did not provide Dr. Lander's title anywhere so another glaring error. Maybe they are completely misrepresenting the whole thing, otherwise it does make Dr. Landers look bad.

 

[hamsterpants]

hmm, interesting. I wonder if practicum experience results in a grade (even if P/NP) and this caused the student to fail the "course" and thus equalized automatic dismissal from the program?


"John Landers was his supervisor for the fall 2011 PSYC 7748 Clinical Externship class "

 

[smalltownpsych]

hmm, interesting. I wonder if practicum experience results in a grade (even if P/NP) and this caused the student to fail the "course" and thus equalized automatic dismissal from the program?


"John Landers was his supervisor for the fall 2011 PSYC 7748 Clinical Externship class "

The practicum/externship class was pass/fail and was the oncampus discussion of whatever we were learning at our sites. I think Dr. Landers was clearly the site supervisor. I actually changed practicum a few months into my neuro placement because the site I was at ended their program. I just secured another slot. There is a lot more to this story than is being represented by the article.

 

[Ollie123]

Even if the class was failed...I'm not sure that would be an automatic dismissal at most programs. Very concerning, absolutely. Would certainly get you placed on probation.

In the absence of any other concerns though, it certainly wouldn't have led to dismissal from my program - particularly under those circumstances where it sounds like even the supervisor (who we are assuming might have provided a failing grade) seemed to indicate it was poor fit and not an indictment of the student on ethical grounds or clinical competence per se (though obviously ability to communicate effectively is a part of that). We'll just have to see what happens and wait for more information to come out. Not surprisingly...Idaho State Journal is clearly not a top-notch source for detailed information.

 

[hamsterpants]

this article appears to have more info

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...his-university-discrimination-after-dismissal

He was dismissed from both a nonrequired externship and a required internship after supervisors at both placements raised concerns about his communication skills. In both cases Yu alleges that he was not afforded due process and the opportunity for remediation, claims Idaho State denies.

 

[smalltownpsych]

this article appears to have more info

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...his-university-discrimination-after-dismissal

He was dismissed from both a nonrequired externship and a required internship after supervisors at both placements raised concerns about his communication skills. In both cases Yu alleges that he was not afforded due process and the opportunity for remediation, claims Idaho State denies.

That makes a bit more sense. If you don't complete the internship, you don't get the degree. The odd thing is that his English skills should be readily apparent to the program when they interviewed him for admission and the internship site as well. I wonder if his speaking skills were not the real problem. Very interesting case.

 

[deleted343839]

That makes a bit more sense. If you don't complete the internship, you don't get the degree. The odd thing is that his English skills should be readily apparent to the program when they interviewed him for admission and the internship site as well. I wonder if his speaking skills were not the real problem. Very interesting case.

True. The references to "establishing rapport" could be interpreted in a lot of ways. And demanding a practicum placement in another country is a new level of entitled.

With language skills, though, it's hard to predict what will happen. An international student in my grad school cohort came in with very choppy English skills but improved rapidly and was quite fluent by internship year. A few years down the road we had another international student who didn't make nearly as much progress and eventually withdrew from the program.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

True. The references to "establishing rapport" could be interpreted in a lot of ways. And demanding a practicum placement in another country is a new level of entitled.

With language skills, though, it's hard to predict what will happen. An international student in my grad school cohort came in with very choppy English skills but improved rapidly and was quite fluent by internship year. A few years down the road we had another international student who didn't make nearly as much progress and eventually withdrew from the program.

I've seen this happen as well. I'd imagine the person's area(s) and population(s) of interest may also come into play.

 

[smalltownpsych]

True. The references to "establishing rapport" could be interpreted in a lot of ways. And demanding a practicum placement in another country is a new level of entitled.

With language skills, though, it's hard to predict what will happen. An international student in my grad school cohort came in with very choppy English skills but improved rapidly and was quite fluent by internship year. A few years down the road we had another international student who didn't make nearly as much progress and eventually withdrew from the program.

Makes sense. I guess the takeaway from that would be that the program should probably have a means to document progress or lack of progress in that area or any other area that could be a concern. That would probably fall on the clinical training director. I know that our program had certain evaluative steps along the way where significant issues like this or others could be addressed.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I wonder if, "communication nuances" is alluding to more issues with cultural differences and possible impact on treatment? Culture and diversity awareness is beaten into us from day 1, though it seems to always focus on the patient. I wonder if this is a case where his approach was problematic (in the eyes of the supervisor)? This doesn't address the claimed lack of remediation, but I've seen instances where a provider's beliefs (and related biases) were interfering with treatment and in our hyper-litigious society the site/supervisor may have over-reacted.

 

[WisNeuro]

Until I see the official documents from both sides, I'll withhold judgment. If there's one thing that neuropsych in the VA has taught me, it's that when there are legal/litigious matters involved, I don't trust anyone's self-report.

 

[cara susanna]

Reading the IHE comments, people don't seem to understand the predoctoral internship selection process and that you can't just "arrange" an internship.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Reading the IHE comments, people don't seem to understand the predoctoral internship selection process and that you can't just "arrange" an internship.

This comment (from the IHE article) seems to get to the crux of the matter:
Only three things we need to know here: what are the technical standards for admission? How is English language proficiency assessed at admission and throughout key milestones? What is the process for dismissal due to poor English language proficiency? If Idaho does not have a good answer for all three questions, shame on them. Everyone else, take notice.

The big legal issue will likely be related to whether or not- and when- he was made reasonably aware of the standards and his performance in relationship to said standards, all with enough time to reasonably be able to expect him to address any deficiencies. My guess is a lot of the courts focus will be on what type of feedback he was given during the first three years of training. Taking somebody's time and money for three years with no reasonable expectation that he would be able to meet the demands of the last 2 years is not a very nice thing to do.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This comment (from the IHE article) seems to get to the crux of the matter:
Only three things we need to know here: what are the technical standards for admission? How is English language proficiency assessed at admission and throughout key milestones? What is the process for dismissal due to poor English language proficiency? If Idaho does not have a good answer for all three questions, shame on them. Everyone else, take notice.

The big legal issue will likely be related to whether or not- and when- he was made reasonably aware of the standards and his performance in relationship to said standards, all with enough time to reasonably be able to expect him to address any deficiencies. My guess is a lot of the courts focus will be on what type of feedback he was given during the first three years of training. Taking somebody's time and money for three years with no reasonable expectation that he would be able to meet the demands of the last 2 years is not a very nice thing to do.

I wonder if a ruling about program responsibility (RE: student ability to graduate w. a degree w. a known problem) could be used to go after predatory programs that have horrible internship match rates, absurdly high attrition rates, etc.? It'd take some creative legal maneuvering, but I could see a scorned student w. $250k+ of debt suing one of the worst offenders for not being more active in addressing deficiencies of the program that are directly related to graduation.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I wonder if a ruling about program responsibility (RE: student ability to graduate w. a degree w. a known problem) could be used to go after predatory programs that have horrible internship match rates, absurdly high attrition rates, etc.? It'd take some creative legal maneuvering, but I could see a scorned student w. $250k+ of debt suing one of the worst offenders for not being more active in addressing deficiencies of the program that are directly related to graduation.

Thing is, while predatory, those programs do publish their internship rates and, push comes to shove, could probably show that any student should not be surprised if they did not get an internship/pass the EPPP/Get licensed/etc. (and also that these outcomes are outside the control of the training program). In other words, it's probably legally permissible to pray on uninformed, over-eager, and desperate people who don't do their homework (or even do their homework and sign on anyways). I think this is different from the ISU case, where it will likely be up to the university to demonstrate what was different during the last 2 years vs. the first 3 years that led them to actively terminate their contract with this student.

 

[Wong]

TOEFL (the test of English language proficiency) can measure English skills in an *academic* setting. That is, the high TOEFL score can say something about your ability to read, listen, speak, and write in the school, but not much beyond that. I believe Yu is competent in English (at least for reading, writing and listening) as he could successfully take graduate-level courses and complete his dissertation. However, seeing patients with mental health problems (or other issues) is a completely different story. He might know how to interact efficiently with professors and graduate students, but not with people outside the field. He might not have much social contact with Americans outside his program (many Chinese students tend to hang out with only Chinese friends), and thus cannot understand patients in different cultures than his own. He might not be confident enough when speaking English and the patients might interpret it as incompetence. He might not know the subtlety in language so his choices of word may sometimes sound apathetic or even offensive to some people. Of course, all of these are just my guess. I know the story as much as everyone here. Just want to say that his good performance in the academic world might not translate into the therapeutic world.

PS. I am an international student.

 

[cara susanna]

IHE also claims that his internship was at an autism clinic. I would imagine that working clinically with that population requires different communication skills than other types of populations. I'm just going off of my own past experience of having difficulties interacting with children who have autism--and I am a native speaker.

 

[futureapppsy2]

IHE also claims that his internship was at an autism clinic. I would imagine that working clinically with that population requires different communication skills than other types of populations. I'm just going off of my own past experience of having difficulties interacting with children who have autism--and I am a native speaker.

Otoh, difficulty communicating is a diagnostic feature of autism and so having difficulty communicating with that population may be more normative than not....

 

[futureapppsy2]

TOEFL (the test of English language proficiency) can measure English skills in an *academic* setting. That is, the high TOEFL score can say something about your ability to read, listen, speak, and write in the school, but not much beyond that. I believe Yu is competent in English (at least for reading, writing and listening) as he could successfully take graduate-level courses and complete his dissertation. However, seeing patients with mental health problems (or other issues) is a completely different story. He might know how to interact efficiently with professors and graduate students, but not with people outside the field. He might not have much social contact with Americans outside his program (many Chinese students tend to hang out with only Chinese friends), and thus cannot understand patients in different cultures than his own. He might not be confident enough when speaking English and the patients might interpret it as incompetence. He might not know the subtlety in language so his choices of word may sometimes sound apathetic or even offensive to some people. Of course, all of these are just my guess. I know the story as much as everyone here. Just want to say that his good performance in the academic world might not translate into the therapeutic world.

PS. I am an international student.

Idk. He had multiple clinical placements before an issue came up and good enough clinical LORs to match, so I'm not entirely willing to buy that he could communicate clinically well and then all of the sudden couldn't.

 

[ITtoPsych]

"establishing rapport" with autism kids requires special skill set - in many cases very direct, literal, firm yet loving, highly energetic etc etc use of language. Being non-native speaker ( inspite of being proficient in English as an academician) and then the culture/humor/social aspect of autism thrown in, it probably was the worst case scenario. "Difficult patients" in context of autistic kids could be a real challenge given the cultural gap, specially if non-verbal autistics were involved. Just speculating...

 

[ClinicalABA]

Question still remains- how was he allowed to start these clinical placements? My gues is that his language skills did not decline in the short time (2 months) from beginning the placement until his dismissal. I think the Cleveland Clinic was an internship, presumably with all the applications, essays, letters of rec, and even interviews. Were his language skills misrepresented? Not accurately assessed?

I work almost exclusively with individuals diagnosed with (or being evaluated, by me, for) autism spectrum disorder. And ability to demonstrate subtleties of the different forms of verbal behavior- mands, tacts, intraverbals, echoics- is a primary skill, particularly when working with young children. Our job is often to teach language (and use language to explain to others how we and they cam use language to teach language). We then teach the nuances of using language to successfully interact with others in a variety of increasingly complex social situations. The topography and function of these behaviors are often culturally specific. If these primary skills- language and proficiency with culture specific social communication- were not objectively assessed prior to his being entered in a contractual relationship with the clinical site, he's got a good case.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Reading between the lines, he must not have matched so was limited in choice of internship and had to take one that was probably a poor fit. Idaho does not have a lot of options since it is a low population mostly rural state and not a lot of need for a Chinese language capable psychologist. Maybe he would have been better suited to another setting where his cultural background would have been a plus. Regardless, many people can't make it through this process for a wide variety of reasons. I hope that this case doesn't set some type of precedent that will lower the bar for all.

 

[existentialist4good]

Here's another article with more on the case: http://isubengal.com/discrimination-in-the-first-degree/

 

[hamsterpants]

Additionally, Yu alleges that his supervisors were not, “…culturally competent and specifically competent to supervise an international student…” because they could not provide supervision to him in his native Chinese while claiming that he had “…cultural competency issues.”

!

 

[hamsterpants]

This is interesting and implies it may not just be an ESL issue: Dr. Shannon Lynch, present Chair of the Department of Psychology, allegedly wrote, “The Graduate Faculty is convinced that a fourth “chance” (i.e., an Internship in China) is unwarranted and might put Chinese patients at risk of harm.”

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Additionally, Yu alleges that his supervisors were not, “…culturally competent and specifically competent to supervise an international student…” because they could not provide supervision to him in his native Chinese while claiming that he had “…cultural competency issues.”

!

Wow. If the suit goes through and finds fault with the university in part or whole because of the above, then that could have some very serious implications going forward (e.g., clinical psych programs may opt not to take any international students in the future).

Given that universities generally require demonstration of fluency in English (e.g., via TOEFL), though, I'm not sure if this argument will hold water.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Yu was denied from doing this because Dr. Shannon Lynch, present Chair of the Department of Psychology, allegedly wrote, “The Graduate Faculty is convinced that a fourth “chance” (i.e., an Internship in China) is unwarranted and might put Chinese patients at risk of harm.”

It appear that the student had failed thrice in doing a clinical practicum/internship. Meaning, he had numerous chances to complete the requirement and had failed. One would think that the program would create a remediation plan to assist the student in overcoming the language difficulties. However, the numerous attempts may suffice as remediation plans.

 

[PsyDr]

Based on the sudden change in legal approaches, I would guess that things are not looking good for the plaintiff.

IMO: They are trying this as a contract case. Yu's attys have a point, if he was not notified. The defendant's position is that no damages are applicable because he did not meet academic retention criteria.

 

[existentialist4good]

Whoa, Dr. Gerald Koocher is now involved in this lawsuit! Check out the quotes from this article:

“It is clear that Mr. Yu suffered serious harm because of several significant ethically questionable behaviors at the hands of ISU faculty,” Koocher wrote in an affidavit included in the court documents. “These included failure of timely written notice of any inadequacies (if they existed) and failure to prescribe a plan for remediation (if needed).”

Dr. Koocher said his review of the facts led him to believe that ISU’s actions were “arbitrary and capricious” when it came to its handling of the Chinese graduate student. He said the university’s actions were “departures from the accepted academic norms for clinical psychology doctoral programs.”​

 

[Justanothergrad]

...interesting.

 

[deleted343839]

The last thing Gerald Koocher vigorously protested were the conclusions of the Hoffman report, so let's not get carried away.

 

[Justanothergrad]

The last thing Gerald Koocher vigorously protested were the conclusions of the Hoffman report, so let's not get carried away.

Don't forget the interests of the DoD before that.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This just gets....more bizarre.

 

[erg923]

Dr. Koocher said his review of the facts led him to believe that ISU’s actions were “arbitrary and capricious”​

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I love stuff like this, I wish I knew more details. I was actually accepted to ISU but did not attend. A part of me wishes I had just so I know the details of this situation.

 

[Chyby]

How can you move to USA, an obviously English speaking country and pretend to be supervised in Chinese? If you want to be supervised in Chinese go back to China and do your clinical PhD there. Or hire an interpreter. I don't want to be rude, but how can you claim to be supervised in your native language if you are studying abroad?

I am a future international applicant and I don't pretend to be supervised in my native language. It's my responsibility to meet local language requirements

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The disconnect for me is that he presumedly made it through multiple practica prior to internship, so how is this now only an issue?

 

[temppsych123]

Here's the page with the info on the actual lawsuit, unfortunately no full text of the complaint available: https://dockets.justia.com/docket/idaho/iddce/1:2015cv00430/35902

Someone's gotta know a lawyer or law student who could access this via something like Lexus Nexus, right?

I do think this case has potentially interesting broader implications about the role of internship and how it is required to get a degree - it has always seemed a little odd to me that students could fulfill all PhD requirements and not match due to the crappy match system (albeit, better this year and perhaps moving in the right direction) and therefore be delayed in getting their degree due to things outside of their (and their university's!) control. This case sounds like it's about a lot of other issues, too; I'll be curious to see how it plays out.

 

[medium rare]

The disconnect for me is that he presumedly made it through multiple practica prior to internship, so how is this now only an issue?

Excellent point and calls into question the overall pattern of training at that program. Regarding Koocher, I remember a lecture in my doctoral forensic course series entitled "****** of the Court" referring to the role of psychologists/mental health 'experts' in the legal milieu. You can always find someone and pay them enough to say what you want to hear.