from general surgery to ortho

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

joedebola

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
I'm a second year general surgery resident. I have recently found out that I may be able to switch into an ortho spot that has become available. The ortho program knows me well and they are somewhat recruiting me for the spot because they like me and know I have always enjoyed ortho as well. I'm feeling hesitant. Not sure what to do. Ortho job market is hot and there are better job prospects. However, I would have to start all over in terms of knowledge base. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Ask yourself one question: If you stay w/ Gsurg and dont make the switch, will you regret it? If your answer is yes, then switch. That is all. Good luck to you either way.
 
I'm a second year general surgery resident. I have recently found out that I may be able to switch into an ortho spot that has become available. The ortho program knows me well and they are somewhat recruiting me for the spot because they like me and know I have always enjoyed ortho as well. I'm feeling hesitant. Not sure what to do. Ortho job market is hot and there are better job prospects. However, I would have to start all over in terms of knowledge base. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

If you want to do ortho, the effort to develop a new knowledge base will be trivial compared to a happier and likely more lucrative career.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Thank you for the responses. The problem is I just like surgery period, love being in the OR. Graduating from an intern into a resident has been so rewarding. I just need to find out what will be suitable for me in the future. Ortho procedures are fun, more mechanical, the scope is more specialized, but, the pathology is somewhat boring. General surgery pathology is very interesting to me and the procedures and anatomy of the abdomen is great. But, the scope is too broad and some things I just don't care for, like Breast, and rectal procedures. The job market and reimbursements suck too. It's a big dilemma and I'm actually having dreams at night about the problem.
 
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you would only have to repeat 1 year of residency, as the first year of ortho is g surg anyways. Oh, and just by readig your post I think you know that you do want to switch to ortho. Thats just the impression I got.

P.S. I would switch if I were you.
 
Ugh, I'm merely a medical student and don't know much at this point about anything, but I HAVE seen enough to know that the pathology of bones and muscles is indeed boring. Working with 2x4s strikes about the same amount of interest with me. The job market and salary in ortho is very appealing (enough-so to have had me try as hard as I could to convince myself that I DID like it... couldn't do it), but I hardly think this is even relevant since you won't be done for another 5 years or so. Actually, the one thing you can probably count on is for reimbursements in ortho to go down, and, I'd even venture to guess, for general surgeons to start doing better. They're making a lot of noise and their mistreatment is pretty well-acknowledged by now, I think. Plus, you'll have many diverse options if you want to specialize; in ortho it's always either one bone or another.

Seriously I would do general surgery because it's inarguably more interesting, it produces the most complete and knowledgeable physicians, and, from a reimbursement standpoint, it's got nowhere to go but up. It seems to me that the aging population is just as relevant to general surgery as it is to ortho, and soon we'll have quite a demand for a field that's fallen out of favor with students.
 
Seriously I would do general surgery because it's inarguably more interesting,

I think that's really a matter of perspective - in terms of physiology, Gen Surg takes the hat but for someone who really loves ortho, knee alignment would be much more fascinating.

I think it's irrelevant to make a decision based on having to learn a new knowledge base.

It sounds like joedebola is already leaning towards ortho...a financial excuse pitted up against an excuse for needing to learn more... is not really an argument.

We've all had to learn more in order to pursue this career ( medicine ) which for all of us - some to a lesser and some to a greater - will provide some financial benefit.

Do orthro- it's what you want isn't it?
 
Ortho procedures are fun, more mechanical, the scope is more specialized, but, the pathology is somewhat boring. General surgery pathology is very interesting to me and the procedures and anatomy of the abdomen is great. But, the scope is too broad and some things I just don't care for, like Breast, and rectal procedures. The job market and reimbursements suck too.

Before this came up, where did you see yourself in 20 years? If it's private practice, you are unlikely to encounter much of the pathology you find interesting. PP GS is dominated by breast, hernia and CCK. Even most PP GS specialties have bread and butter cases that dominate their practice. For almost everyone, the fascination with pathology eventually wears off. Perhaps in peds or some of the few remaining academic, broad-spectrum GS practices, the variety and surprises remain. But for most people, the novelty wears off and you have to find satisfaction in some other part of the job.
 
I think that's really a matter of perspective - in terms of physiology, Gen Surg takes the hat but for someone who really loves ortho, knee alignment would be much more fascinating.

I think it's irrelevant to make a decision based on having to learn a new knowledge base.

It sounds like joedebola is already leaning towards ortho...a financial excuse pitted up against an excuse for needing to learn more... is not really an argument.

We've all had to learn more in order to pursue this career ( medicine ) which for all of us - some to a lesser and some to a greater - will provide some financial benefit.

Do orthro- it's what you want isn't it?

Well, honestly, I think yes, I do want ortho.
 
Before this came up, where did you see yourself in 20 years? If it's private practice, you are unlikely to encounter much of the pathology you find interesting. PP GS is dominated by breast, hernia and CCK. Even most PP GS specialties have bread and butter cases that dominate their practice. For almost everyone, the fascination with pathology eventually wears off. Perhaps in peds or some of the few remaining academic, broad-spectrum GS practices, the variety and surprises remain. But for most people, the novelty wears off and you have to find satisfaction in some other part of the job.

If that is true, then, yes, I don't know if that scope of procedures will do it for me even though I was going to specialize anyway, In Hand surgery in fact (going from g surgery to hand fellowship). It seems a lot of people are pointing me towards ortho and I think I may actually go for it. I'll keep people updated. Thank you.
 
If that is true, then, yes, I don't know if that scope of procedures will do it for me even though I was going to specialize anyway, In Hand surgery in fact (going from g surgery to hand fellowship). It seems a lot of people are pointing me towards ortho and I think I may actually go for it. I'll keep people updated. Thank you.

Besides what everyone else is saying above (which I agree with), if you are interested in pursuing a career in Hand surgery, you will be significantly limiting your education and professional options if you do it through general surgery.

There are hand fellowships which accept general surgery trained residents, however, there are many more which only accept Ortho or Plastics. In addition, if you do a search here you will find threads which state that a hand surgeon without additional Ortho or Plastics training often finds trouble finding employment - the Ortho groups don't want him, nor do the Plastics groups, and the general surgery groups don't want to cover his Hand patients.

Sounds to me, more and more, like Ortho is the right choice.
 
I'm kind of confused because you say you like GS because of the pathology, yet you want to go into hand which is esentially orthopaedic pathology?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Agree with above. If your interest is in hand, you need to march to the ortho PD's office now with pen in hand to sign your contract. No debate at all, none whatsoever.
 
is there any one who can ple. ans my query?
..just going to finish internship in india .n looking Pg in surgery or ortho or radiology..
finished Mbbs from romania .
doing german class as well...so how can i find Pg there in germany n the the formality...
ple guide me..?
 
is there any one who can ple. ans my query?
..just going to finish internship in india .n looking Pg in surgery or ortho or radiology..
finished Mbbs from romania .
doing german class as well...so how can i find Pg there in germany n the the formality...
ple guide me..?

128672735456325460.jpg
 
However, I would have to start all over in terms of knowledge base. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated.

Dude, all you have to do is watch about six episodes of "Bob the Builder" and you'll be all caught up.
 
I thought I wanted to do ortho in med school. Busted my butt, made the grades, worked myself into the ground during 3rd year and clerkships, then did my ortho rotation. CRAP!!! I was bored to tears. Hated it. Still find it quite boring actually. Only thing good about it was the O.R. and the fact that they were mostly athletic guys who enjoyed sports and physical activities similar to what I enjoyed. So the camaraderie was better. They are usually "cooler" people than general surgeons as whole because of this. Many of them are intelligent jocks.

All of that being said, they make 3x what I make while working less. They don't do rectal stuff, or breast (if you don't like breast), or bowel perforations, or every abscess on the planet, or every central line, or every chronic abdominal pain. Sure, they have their crappy stuff too but they get paid better for it.

As I tell everyone, orthopods are the smartest students and the dumbest doctors. They do this by choice. Completely ignorant to anything medical. Completely. They get a medical consult for a blood glucose of 115 or a potassium of 3.4. Whatever.

BUT, let me tell you this: Do not make the decision on income potential. It will be different in 2016 when you're done. Sure, ortho will probably still make more because there is less of them but general surgeons aren't poor. Pick the type of patients you enjoy working with and the types of operations you enjoy.

You already said it. You want ortho. So go for it. You only live once. Don't regret anything.
 
As I tell everyone, orthopods are the smartest students and the dumbest doctors.

It's actually neck and neck between them and the ER. You can't go wrong either way.
 
orthopedics: strong like ox... twice as smart.

I remember being in an patient's SICU room and the orthopedic chief resident was in the room rounding on him. The SICU nurse started asking him questions about Swan parameters. The guy simply replied "orthopedics" and walked out of the room. i thought that was classic.
 
orthopedics: strong like ox... twice as smart.

I remember being in an patient's SICU room and the orthopedic chief resident was in the room rounding on him. The SICU nurse started asking him questions about Swan parameters. The guy simply replied "orthopedics" and walked out of the room. i thought that was classic.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: I've done this on more than one occasion. :idea:
 
It's actually neck and neck between them and the ER. You can't go wrong either way.

The big difference is that we are pretending.
 
A couple of months ago one of our male O.R. nurses was in the lounge and passed out. Only person around was my ortho colleague. Instead of helping the nurse, he opens the door and yells to the O.R. crew to "get a doctor". Completely hilarious. I still give him crap about that. Sad thing is, he was absolutely serious.
 
I once walked into a code blue and found the PGY2 ortho resident bag-mask venitlating the patient--except the mask was about 6 inches above the patients face. After I grabbed it and started ventilating the patient, he ran away. I was not amused as I could have used another set of hands until others arrived. Patient ultimately died (massive PE). And it was an ortho primary patient.
 
As I tell everyone, orthopods are the smartest students and the dumbest doctors. They do this by choice. Completely ignorant to anything medical. Completely. They get a medical consult for a blood glucose of 115 or a potassium of 3.4. Whatever.

The big difference is that we are pretending.
Yeah, it's definitely by choice. The saying here by the orthopods is "don't do anything that someone else can do for you." I've known ortho to consult medicine for a mildly hypertensive patient...when they didn't even try restarting the patient on his home labetalol dose. Yeah. The medicine residents hate that crap. That means that they then have to write a laborious H&P, round on them everyday, write progress notes, all because the ortho residents were too lazy to put the guy on his home meds. They should be ashamed.
 
orthopedics: strong like ox... twice as smart.

I remember being in an patient's SICU room and the orthopedic chief resident was in the room rounding on him. The SICU nurse started asking him questions about Swan parameters. The guy simply replied "orthopedics" and walked out of the room. i thought that was classic.



hahahahahaahahah amazing!
 
The big difference is that we are pretending.

There's actually no difference.

Ortho guys pretend they don't know anything other than "fixing bones, duuuh" and then giggle and wink. But at the end of the day, whether you want to say they're pretending or not, they don't do anything other than "fix bones." As people have noted, and as Ortho guys know, they just dump on everyone else around them. It's great for Ortho and sucks for everyone else. Unlike most everyone else, Ortho guys have no concern for anything other than their operative site. Period. There's an almost aggressive ignorance to anything else on the patient and they don't care what happens to the patient. That's pathetic and reprehensible. The problem is that, since everyone knows that's the case, they resign themselves to taking care of Ortho patients. The way it should actually work is that everyone ignores Ortho patients and they all die, but that would never happen.

ER guys pretend they know everything and can basically practice Medicine, Surgery, Pediatrics, Family Practice, and even some Neurosurgery on the side. The only reason they consult everyone else for everything is because "the hospital makes them." Most of the time they do half-assed things that they never learn are incorrect because by that time the patient has been rescued from the ER by the admitting team. I can't even get the ER to bolus IV fluids for an obstructed patient who requires aggressive resuscitation, but the ER will lecture me on how they know everything about everything. Again, the end result is the same. Everyone else resigns themselves to receiving tons of consults and poorly- or not-worked up patients from the ER because that's where people get their patients (i.e., money).

So, there's no difference. Like I said, take your pick.
 
There's actually no difference.

Ortho guys pretend they don't know anything other than "fixing bones, duuuh" and then giggle and wink. But at the end of the day, whether you want to say they're pretending or not, they don't do anything other than "fix bones." As people have noted, and as Ortho guys know, they just dump on everyone else around them. It's great for Ortho and sucks for everyone else. Unlike most everyone else, Ortho guys have no concern for anything other than their operative site. Period. There's an almost aggressive ignorance to anything else on the patient and they don't care what happens to the patient. That's pathetic and reprehensible. The problem is that, since everyone knows that's the case, they resign themselves to taking care of Ortho patients. The way it should actually work is that everyone ignores Ortho patients and they all die, but that would never happen.

ER guys pretend they know everything and can basically practice Medicine, Surgery, Pediatrics, Family Practice, and even some Neurosurgery on the side. The only reason they consult everyone else for everything is because "the hospital makes them." Most of the time they do half-assed things that they never learn are incorrect because by that time the patient has been rescued from the ER by the admitting team. I can't even get the ER to bolus IV fluids for an obstructed patient who requires aggressive resuscitation, but the ER will lecture me on how they know everything about everything. Again, the end result is the same. Everyone else resigns themselves to receiving tons of consults and poorly- or not-worked up patients from the ER because that's where people get their patients (i.e., money).

So, there's no difference. Like I said, take your pick.





bGjfANdAGj9t1y81lIVqe3uKo1_500.gif
 
Bingo. Sounds like ortho's dumb like a fox.

Not really. It's not "clever" to not care about your patient so much that other people who do care feel the need to take over. I mean, if you two guys think that's "clever," then there's not much more to be said about it. I guess then you go home and tell yourselves that you're clever fellows.

Bottom line is this, and I say this to Ortho guys and ER guys alike. If you want to say "we're great because we picked professions where we don't have to worry much because other people are picking up after us," that's true. I can't change that, even if I'd like to. Like I said, they're great at not caring at all about it. But vice versa, you can talk all you want about "haters" and that won't change the fact that, whether overtly or in the back of their minds, everyone thinks that you guys are dimwits. And people can report that as a TOS violation and that also won't change real life because that's what everyone is thinking in real life, too. You can't have it both ways, where you dump on people AND have people respect you as physicians.
 
Last edited:
I know some of this is said in jest, but are orthos really this dumb to medical problems? How much worse is it compared to other surgical or non-medicine specialty?

Unfortunately, as time goes on and the orthopods get further away from medical school and internship, they do in fact forget all things medical. Completely.

The ortho colleague i refer to is 11 years out of residency. He will admit to being completely clueless to all things medical....completely. For a patient undergoing knee arthroscopy who is otherwise healthy 40 yo on one hypertensive medication, he sends them to their PCP for medical clearance. Every time. Part of that is CYA and part of that is to reiterate to the patient that everything but the knee needs to go through his PCP.

Far cry from how I practice. I've never asked for "clearance" from a PCP. I do a risk assessment and if the patient needs to be evaluated by their cardiologist or pulmonologist, I will do that. And it is quite rare that I do that.
 
Not really. It's not "clever" to not care about your patient so much that other people who do care feel the need to take over. I mean, if you two guys think that's "clever," then there's not much more to be said about it. I guess then you go home and tell yourselves that you're clever fellows.

Bottom line is this, and I say this to Ortho guys and ER guys alike. If you want to say "we're great because we picked professions where we don't have to worry much because other people are picking up after us," that's true. I can't change that, even if I'd like to. Like I said, they're great at not caring at all about it. But vice versa, you can talk all you want about "haters" and that won't change the fact that, whether overtly or in the back of their minds, everyone thinks that you guys are dimwits. And people can report that as a TOS violation and that also won't change real life because that's what everyone is thinking in real life, too. You can't have it both ways, where you dump on people AND have people respect you as physicians.

My only rebuttal is: do they make it work? You claim that "the people that do care take over." Well, ortho isn't deaf dumb and blind. They see that you take over. Therefore I can imagine a scenario where I, as an ortho, care very much yet I choose not to deal with certain aspects of medicine because I know people like yourself will step in and fill the role.

I still care of course, the only difference is that I've been pragmatic in how I choose to distribute the efforts directed towards the patient.

Why would I bother with certain aspects of patient care that I don't enjoy when I know others will swoop in like modern day superheroes and save the day. Before you answer, remember that my obligation isn't to make the job of my colleagues in other specialties any easier. It's to perform my service to the patient well. According to my calculations, I've done exactly that. I fixed their knee. All other medical problems can go to the person that spent their life studying said problems.
 
Ortho is a system that perpetuates itself.
they learn from their attendings how to practice.
they are typically top achieving medical students who could be taught to manage their own patients better than the medicine doctors or the icu physicians.

the people who trained me, taught me to be able to risk stratify and take care of patients post op. I only need to call people when I think that there is another physician specialty who can do it better than I can. I take pride in keeping people safe. You don't have to be a pulmonologist to order PFTs or a cardiologist to order a stress test. by doing these myself I have the power to control these things and make them happen. I have what a lot of other physicians that could potentially take care of my patients don't have- and that is work ethic, attention to detail, and a vested interest. Even more, I have common sense which apparently is not always standard. The patient's appreciate that. I never want to be just a technician...

I don't want to be the Knee Dentist.
 
Ortho is a system that perpetuates itself.
they learn from their attendings how to practice.
they are typically top achieving medical students who could be taught to manage their own patients better than the medicine doctors or the icu physicians.

the people who trained me, taught me to be able to risk stratify and take care of patients post op. I only need to call people when I think that there is another physician specialty who can do it better than I can. I take pride in keeping people safe. You don't have to be a pulmonologist to order PFTs or a cardiologist to order a stress test. by doing these myself I have the power to control these things and make them happen. I have what a lot of other physicians that could potentially take care of my patients don't have- and that is work ethic, attention to detail, and a vested interest. Even more, I have common sense which apparently is not always standard. The patient's appreciate that. I never want to be just a technician...

I don't want to be the Knee Dentist.

:laugh: I'm going have to remember that one. That's going into my arsenal.

Well said btw.
 
the more you guys talk about ortho, the more it seems like the best field in medicine.

i am sorry, but the ortho guys are all really down to earth, many lift weights, they don't care to deal with nonsense, they get to practice where they see instant results and not manage chronic conditions for years, they can do a procedure that helps alleviate pain in a patient and the patients are all incredibly thankful, the pay is very good, the lifestyle is a bit crazy though, they get to use a ton of different tools and toys.

i dont know, it sounds like the hands down best field in medical field.
 
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. It is currently one of the best specialties for near instant gratification of surgical procedures and less of the general surgery bull****. Hey if you want to be treated like a ball sack by your attendings and senior residents go ahead and line up for the abuse. Just finished my last general surgery rotation as an intern and couldn't be happier. Oh and don't kid yourself that all Orthopaedists can't manage medical issues or general surg or insert speciality can. People suck in every specialty folks, just saying.

Have fun with the EtOH complications! Ha, gen surg can have them.
 
Why would I bother with certain aspects of patient care that I don't enjoy when I know others will swoop in like modern day superheroes and save the day. Before you answer, remember that my obligation isn't to make the job of my colleagues in other specialties any easier. It's to perform my service to the patient well. According to my calculations, I've done exactly that. I fixed their knee. All other medical problems can go to the person that spent their life studying said problems.

I agree 100%. Nobody should have a problem with your approach. You are doing the things that make you happy.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner. It is currently one of the best specialties for near instant gratification of surgical procedures and less of the general surgery bull****. Hey if you want to be treated like a ball sack by your attendings and senior residents go ahead and line up for the abuse. Just finished my last general surgery rotation as an intern and couldn't be happier. Oh and don't kid yourself that all Orthopaedists can't manage medical issues or general surg or insert speciality can. People suck in every specialty folks, just saying.

Have fun with the EtOH complications! Ha, gen surg can have them.

That's a relatively worthless post...much in contrast to the one quoted above. Just because general surgery junior residents in your specific program have a bad situation, you write off the entire specialty. I always found it funny how near-sighted people could be, assuming that real-life medicine was anything like that small snapshot they got of the ward life of a surgical intern.

I'm still not sure how much worse the ortho guys are at dealing with medical problems when compared to other surgeons. I mean aren't they all "dumb" to medical problems. Couldn't the medicine guys take better care of the patient with a medical issue than an ortho, genealogy surgeon, ent, etc?

Not necessarily. I do believe that there are bad apples in every specialty, but I think a well-trained general surgeon is better equipped to deal with the peri-operative medical issues in their patients than a random hospitalist. We also do a great deal of critical care/ICU work in general surgery, so our comfort level with MSOF, etc is very high.


This thread is annoying because people are trying to categorize everything into black and white, with one specialty being good and the other being bad. It's obviously different for everybody. For instance, most orthopods would dread dealing with guts and poo all day, and yet I'm working ridiculously hard to get into a fellowship so I can do this all day....along with 200 other accomplished general surgery chiefs....all fighting for 75 spots.

I personally was bored out of my mind with orthopaedics, and thought the surgeries sucked. On the other hand, I really enjoyed the "general surgery bulls@#t" as it was referred to above, where I felt I could make a palpaple difference in my patient's lives doing stuff that I love.

I think orthopods are fine if they don't want to do medical care. However, I think it's ridiculous when they act like it's this great con that they've pulled off, fooling all us dumb bastards in other specialties. After all, we don't this hard for this many years to con or trick people....we do it to help people.
 
My only rebuttal is: do they make it work? You claim that "the people that do care take over." Well, ortho isn't deaf dumb and blind. They see that you take over. Therefore I can imagine a scenario where I, as an ortho, care very much yet I choose not to deal with certain aspects of medicine because I know people like yourself will step in and fill the role.

That's the dumbest rationale I've ever heard. "I care so much about my patient that I want them to be taken care of by people who actually want to deal with them, which isn't me." I'd have to be in Ortho to buy that line of circular horsesh*t.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. It is currently one of the best specialties for near instant gratification of surgical procedures and less of the general surgery bull****.

Otherwise known as a technician, otherwise known as a monkey. As in "I could train a monkey to do this operation." That's you. Want a banana?
 
This thread is annoying because people are trying to categorize everything into black and white, with one specialty being good and the other being bad. It's obviously different for everybody. For instance, most orthopods would dread dealing with guts and poo all day, and yet I'm working ridiculously hard to get into a fellowship so I can do this all day....along with 200 other accomplished general surgery chiefs....all fighting for 75 spots.

Wrong. Nobody is saying Ortho is "bad" because they deal with joints and bones and CRS is "good" because you like to finger men from behind at every chance you get. Ortho is "bad" because Ortho operates and then, no matter what happens to their patient, it's no big deal. Like, if their patient became septic and went into DIC, it would be like "do I have to take out my prosthesis??" "Uh no, we think it's actually pneumon --" "OK, bye." Or the patient could go into DTs, as mentioned, and it would be like "What, I was supposed to know he drinks? Who am I, Houdini??"
 
What's ridiculous about this thread is the stereotypes and the assumptions we are making about each other.

There are plenty of general surgeons who had the chops to do Ortho but chose not to.

And there are orthopods who do find interest in managing the whole patient.

And as for ortho offering immediate gratification and happy patients as opposed to the long term suffering and ill natured patients of general surgery, only a medical student could have written that.

There are happy patients and immediate gratification in every specialty. Do a lap appy and take someone from misery to feeling well enough to go home within a few hours and they are generally pretty happy and grateful. Try that with your shoulder recon.

Who cares why someone chooses the specialty they do? Its cheap fodder for laughs to criticize someone for choosing "poo" over bones but CRS has very interesting genetics, patient presentations and increasingly minimally invasive surgeries. Add to that a good lifestyle and income and its not suprising that many residents choose it.

But at any rate, the infighting is getting tiresome.
 
And there are orthopods who do find interest in managing the whole patient.

Note: those orthopods practice in Transylvania, where the patients are skeletons and/or zombies, aka "the living dead," who do not require any maintenance other than feeding them human brains. Side benefit is that the zombies don't go for the orthopods. Sorry, I mean "orthopaeods."
 
Sorry, I mean "orthopaeods."

:confused:

Anyways, when all the IM or surgery people complain that orthopods can't/won't/don't take care of their "sick" patients, they should realize that they don't let their interns manage patients independantly. I contend that we essentially have intern-level knowledge regarding patient care of general medical issues. My training program has 4 months of general adult surgical training, No dedicated ICU, and no internal medicine. The other months are ortho and other consult services (PRS, etc...). It has been said that the farther out we get from medical school, the less we know, which is true. We shouldn't be managing a brittle diabetic/CHF/Liver Failure/O2 dependant patient/etc.. patient. Our attendings don't have the training either, they will not accept the liability. You chose your profession, don't be upset when you are expected to do your job.
 
:confused:

Anyways, when all the IM or surgery people complain that orthopods can't/won't/don't take care of their "sick" patients, they should realize that they don't let their interns manage patients independantly. I contend that we essentially have intern-level knowledge regarding patient care of general medical issues. My training program has 4 months of general adult surgical training, No dedicated ICU, and no internal medicine. The other months are ortho and other consult services (PRS, etc...). It has been said that the farther out we get from medical school, the less we know, which is true. We shouldn't be managing a brittle diabetic/CHF/Liver Failure/O2 dependant patient/etc.. patient. Our attendings don't have the training either, they will not accept the liability. You chose your profession, don't be upset when you are expected to do your job.
Fair enough...we don't want you managing those things either. We get that you've only done an intern year and don't have higher level management skills. But I venture to say that what we object to is (IMHO) failure to manage things that ARE intern level things, things I would expect even a senior level medical student to know, that some orthpods fail to manage. Things like putting patients back on home meds, turning off high volume IVF when patient is eating a regular diet (and well), checking gluc levels in diabetics, etc. Those don't require SICU or IM ward time to be able to do.
 
:confused:

Anyways, when all the IM or surgery people complain that orthopods can't/won't/don't take care of their "sick" patients, they should realize that they don't let their interns manage patients independantly. I contend that we essentially have intern-level knowledge regarding patient care of general medical issues. My training program has 4 months of general adult surgical training, No dedicated ICU, and no internal medicine. The other months are ortho and other consult services (PRS, etc...). It has been said that the farther out we get from medical school, the less we know, which is true. We shouldn't be managing a brittle diabetic/CHF/Liver Failure/O2 dependant patient/etc.. patient. Our attendings don't have the training either, they will not accept the liability. You chose your profession, don't be upset when you are expected to do your job.

That was an elaborately written statement to say "we don't know how to take care of patients, so you have to and don't complain about it because that's your job."

Nobody's complaining about doing our job. Our job doesn't happen to involve taking care of YOUR patients just because you're too ignorant to do so. I don't know what hot-shot attending told you it was, but whoever it was is an imbecile.
 
Do the other surgery subspecialties do the above on a regular basis? Would you expect the neuro or ent guy to do them?

I can't speak for other programs but YES in mine, Nsgy and ENT did all their patient management (within reason...obviously complicated medical problems should be consulted out). We rarely had a problem even with Neuro trauma...they routinely took them on their service without the bellyaching seen with Ortho.
 
Do the other surgery subspecialties do the above on a regular basis? Would you expect the neuro or ent guy to do them?
Yeah ENT takes care of some really sick patients with lots of issues on head and neck.

Since the point doesn't seem to have gotten across to everyone, the issue isn't that you guys consult medicine for patients with lupus, liver disease, etc., it's that you refuse to even try to take care of things that anyone with an MD should be able to manage. Patient a little hypertensive? Why don't you try restarting his home atenolol before consulting medicine. Type 2 diabetic? Try a standard SSI order. It's crap like this that make everyone pissed at you guys. Let's face it. You just want those pages to go to medicine or surgery so you only have to write your four line note daily that consists completely of abbreviations.
 
Top