Frustrated with legal paperwork

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F0nzie

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I keep getting disability and guardianship paperwork thrown at me and I look at the questions involved and I do not know the answer to any of the questions... as if I go home with these patients and see how they interact with their home and work environment or check their bank statements to see if they spend their money responsibly. I have 20-25 patients scheduled a day and I am too busy putting off fires. I have been telling some of my patients to have their lawyer refer them to a forensic psychiatrist. Because hell... I don't know the answers to the questions on the stupid forms. Any advice?

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I keep getting disability and guardianship paperwork thrown at me and I look at the questions involved and I do not know the answer to any of the questions... as if I go home with these patients and see how they interact with their home and work environment or check their bank statements to see if they spend their money responsibly. I have 20-25 patients scheduled a day and I am too busy putting off fires. I have been telling some of my patients to have their lawyer refer them to a forensic psychiatrist. Because hell... I don't know the answers to the questions on the stupid forms. Any advice?

Make it an office policy not get involved in such matters. Your responsbility is treatment. Disability is NOT treatment.
 
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Unless it is a form I can complete in 1 minute or less, I charge my usual and customary fee for forms and letters.

If there are questions that I can't answer based upon my evaluation, I write NOT EXAMINED or UNKNOWN.

Copies of the chart are available for a nominal per page copy fee. But, if I am going to take the time to write a de novo letter or form concerning diagnosis and treatment, and I am going to sign it, and it is going to become a legal document which I can be subpoenaed about, I am going to charge for it.
 
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Make it an office policy not get involved in such matters. Your responsbility is treatment. Disability is NOT treatment.

I believe this is the correct answer-- recommend an independent medical examination by a forensic psychiatrist who will appropriately review the case and make those determinations. On the other hand, when someone already has disability and needs a page filled out specifically by their treating psychiatrist that is on you and you should probably just do your best.
 
I believe this is the correct answer-- recommend an independent medical examination by a forensic psychiatrist who will appropriately review the case and make those determinations. On the other hand, when someone already has disability and needs a page filled out specifically by their treating psychiatrist that is on you and you should probably just do your best.
Why should it be by the treating psychiatrist? You have many inherent conflicts of interest (doing what the patient wants, helping the patient reach what you feel is their highest level of functioning, just making the form go away). The patient should just get that done independently.

I'm not sure FMLA is any different. The problems are that the patient often needs this done right away, can't afford a separate evaluation not covered by insurance, and we don't know whom to refer them to.
 
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Make it an office policy not get involved in such matters. Your responsbility is treatment. Disability is NOT treatment.
This!! I've taken this same approach nor do I do 'phone consultations' to review cases with disability companies et al. However, I do ask them to get a signed release and my office staff lets them know there is a fee associated with faxing documents. I think it's customary at about $2/page.
 
I saw a patient a few months ago and in the following month got a request for records out of the blue from a disability company requesting her records.

They had asked for the fax number when they called in. With in a week they faxed over the request with ROI etc. I immediately replied back the patient was not seen from a disability perspective and was seen with the intention to treat the patient and help the patient get well. I told them the records will not be released to them for the indication they had asked.

They've never bothered contacting the office since.
 
Our local SSI have psychiatrists who can examine and make that determination. It is a conflict of interest to treat a patient AND say they are disabled IMO. I explain I will never know if the history they give me is true if they are getting money for being ill? We just send records.

Guardianship is another matter for me. If I have seen the patient long enough to really know them, I fill out the papers. Those only take 1-2 minutes. If I don't know the patient well, I just write something like "unable to determine" and send it back.
 
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I keep getting disability and guardianship paperwork thrown at me and I look at the questions involved and I do not know the answer to any of the questions... as if I go home with these patients and see how they interact with their home and work environment or check their bank statements to see if they spend their money responsibly. I have 20-25 patients scheduled a day and I am too busy putting off fires. I have been telling some of my patients to have their lawyer refer them to a forensic psychiatrist. Because hell... I don't know the answers to the questions on the stupid forms. Any advice?

Say no. I have a policy similar to what erg923 described.

Guardianship and disability paperwork can literally eat up your entire day and make you really dislike your work on a daily basis. I do a fair amount of expert eval paperwork for guardianship, though in my setting (neurologic injury/rehab) it tends to be more straight forward, at least in regard to providing paperwork as a clinical provider to get the initial application going. I'd really try and avoid getting pulled into it if at all possible, as the best case scenario is you get paid, and the worst case is you are giving your time away AND get stuck dealing with nightmare patients/lawyers/families.

Disability paperwork is straight up frustrating. As a psychiatrist, I'm not sure if you can realistically "avoid" it per se, but definitely don't make it known that you do it because you'll have a line out your door. Reimbursement is nil to poor and the bad apples seem to multiply. I actively screen out referrals if there is a hint of disability and/or forensic intent because I don't want to do forensic work for clinical rates.
 
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Some of the forms I have filled out for renewal of disability specifically require that the *treating* psychiatrist fill them out (it is quite clear in the instructions). If your patient's disability requires this, do you just tell them too bad and let their disability lapse?
 
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Some of the forms I have filled out for renewal of disability specifically require that the *treating* psychiatrist fill them out (it is quite clear in the instructions). If your patient's disability requires this, do you just tell them too bad and let their disability lapse?

Do you think they are disabled?
 
Some of the forms I have filled out for renewal of disability specifically require that the *treating* psychiatrist fill them out (it is quite clear in the instructions). If your patient's disability requires this, do you just tell them too bad and let their disability lapse?
Conversely, the disability agency is welcome to a copy of your records and fill out the forms themselves, with the appropriate fees for copying/faxing.
 
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I just had a stable patient ask me to sign a form that states she is unable to pay off student loans from 5 years ago. There was also another patient that wanted me to write a letter to get out of paying tuition for not showing up to classes this last semester. I am also getting tons of inquiries for second opinions and disability evaluations at my pp. What's up with all these favors... I am getting sick and tired of seeing this crap all day.
 
I just had a stable patient ask me to sign a form that states she is unable to pay off student loans from 5 years ago. There was also another patient that wanted me to write a letter to get out of paying tuition for not showing up to classes this last semester. I am also getting tons of inquiries for second opinions and disability evaluations at my pp. What's up with all these favors... I am getting sick and tired of seeing this crap all day.
Could you change your outgoing message to succinctly state you don't see people for these types of things (disability, etc.) Is there a problem being asked to give a second opinion? Regarding the letter for school (if you really think they could have gone to school), just say no, and explain that it would be enabling the patient, countertherapeutic, and bad medicine.
 
I just had a stable patient ask me to sign a form that states she is unable to pay off student loans from 5 years ago. There was also another patient that wanted me to write a letter to get out of paying tuition for not showing up to classes this last semester. I am also getting tons of inquiries for second opinions and disability evaluations at my pp. What's up with all these favors... I am getting sick and tired of seeing this crap all day.
No good deed goes unpunished.

I don't say that to imply to say no to everything, but to be aware of opening another door/issue down the road.

I just got re-consulted on a case from a year ago that *surprise surprise* has not gotten better. I'm pretty sure it is still in active litigation, so there is still a push to "prove" disability et al. (and clear motivation to not get better). I'd usually bow out, but in this instance I think a re-eval can be beneficial clinically.

I've gone FOUR whole days w/o having to respond to a lawyer inquiry or fill out legal paperwork; one more day to make it a week!
 
First off, and I mean no offense because this is not taught well in any residency I've seen---
Doctors do have a responsibility to fill out disability forms.

There's two approaches to this. There's the simple type of evaluation that literally only takes the amount of time needed to fill out the form if you already know the patient. This is all that should be expected in a clinical sense. I've done hundreds of these types of evaluations. They only take me about 15-20 minutes of time and you could bill the patient for this work. This is assuming you already know the patient well.

There's there's the drawn out forensic-level evaluation where you may have to do extensive testing. This type of evaluation is out of the field of expertise for most physicians and I would strongly argue that this type of evaluation should be done by a forensic psychiatrist or psychologist, while the type of eval mentioned in the above paragraph could be done by a clinical doctor.

I just had a stable patient ask me to sign a form that states she is unable to pay off student loans from 5 years ago. There was also another patient that wanted me to write a letter to get out of paying tuition for not showing up to classes this last semester

Whopper's generic form for this type of BS.

"To whom it may concern,

Ms. Sarah Quell asked me to write a letter stating she was unable to pay off her loans from 5 years ago. My field of expertise is not in the field of finances or paying off tuition. I have informed the patient of this and see no point in why I have to write a letter to you about it.

Regards,

Dr. Whopper MD
Diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology in General and Forensic Psychiatry
Fellow of the American Board of Disability Analysts
Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychiatry
St. Louis University School of Medicine
Department of Neurology and Psychiatry"

Okay generic form #2 for work excuse.

"To whom iy may concern,

Mr. Harold Doll (friends call him "Hal") asked me to write a "sick note" for him today as an excuse to not go to work. He requested I do this over the phone. I cannot verify with reasonable medical certainty that he is actually suffering from something that necessitates he be excused from work because I did not see him in person. I informed him of my limitations in this regard.

Wish you all the best,
Dr. Whopper, MD
Diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology in General and Forensic Psychiatry
Fellow of the American Board of Disability Analysts
Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychiatry
St. Louis University School of Medicine
Department of Neurology and Psychiatry"

Better yet you just tell them what you're going to write ahead of time so you don't even have to freaking write in the first place, cause when you tell them what you will write they'll tell you not to do it anyway.

And guess what? It's all the RIGHT THING TO DO because you're not supposed to give a work excuse unless you have reasonable medical certainty to believe them.

Repeat: you should be writing disability evaluations of the simple clinical sort that should only take a few minutes and you could have them come in for a visit to do this to follow proper billing guidelines.
 
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Is there a problem being asked to give a second opinion?

The second opinions are not commonly requested because of their curiosity or to further understand their condition. That would be so nice!!! They are almost always requested because they want something. For example, to dismantle the diagnosis and treatment recommended by their VA psychiatrist to restore their gun rights.
 
Disability is NOT treatment.

Disability could be part of the picture to allow the patient to get better treatment. Again, one should not be forced to do the lengthy forensic evaluations. Several insurance companies and Medicaire-Medicaid disability forms usually are on the order of something that could only take a few minutes.

And in many of those questions you as a psychiatrist can't answer most of them anyway. E.g. I got one asking "how much can the patient lift over his head" I answered "This should be answered by a non-psychiatric physician."

Often times disability forms request answers to questions we might not have yet gotten but are related to our field. In which case you just tell the patient you can't fill that part of the form out until you see them again--again it's all billable because it can go in the confines of an office visit.
 
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The second opinions are not commonly requested because of their curiosity or to further understand their condition. That would be so nice!!! They are almost always requested because they want something. For example, to dismantle the diagnosis and treatment recommended by their VA psychiatrist to restore their gun rights.
Situations like that I am very upfront with the patient of what I will do for them and what I won't do. A good example I get frequently is with newly divorced parents who end up with their kid seeing me for treatment of the adjustment disorder. I will treat your child, I will not make any recommendations on custody, I will need both parents to consent, I will need documentation of custody orders. I won't take sides.

So for the guy wanting a second opinion, the same goes and I think I would say that a differential diagnosis to challenge a current diagnosis is a legal question. If you want me to provide treatment, I will, but I will not get involved in any legal disputes or render any opinions counter to the other providers and I will need to have a release so I can consult other provider to coordinate care.
 
The problem I see in Psychiatry is unless you are severely mentally ill ie. actively psychotic, disorganized, or cognitively impaired and resistant to meds... You can work. Almost anybody can pick up a broom and help out. Can't stand for extended periods of time? Boom! Data entry. I feel like 1% of my county case load can't work but 50% are on disability. I have a guy that is applying for disability because he gets bored easily once gets familiar with any type of work. His plan is to buy a Toyota Tacoma with his DA check. Geez... At least buy American.
 
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I will need to have a release so I can consult other provider to coordinate care.
I've been told that you don't need a release to contact a current provider. Is this true? Do you need one to contact the most recent provider, and if not does it depending on how long since last treatment?
 
I will need to have a release so I can consult other provider to coordinate care.

I've been told that you don't need a release to contact a current provider. Is this true? Do you need one to contact the most recent provider, and if not does it depending on how long since last treatment?

Short answer: Maybe.

Long answer:

Under HIPPA, a covered entity may, without the individual’s authorization:

Use or disclose protected health information for its own treatment, payment, and health care operations activities. For example:

  • A hospital may use protected health information about an individual to provide health care to the individual and may consult with other health care providers about the individual’s treatment.
  • A health care provider may disclose protected health information about an individual as part of a claim for payment to a health plan. A health plan may use protected health information to provide customer service to its enrollees.
A covered entity may disclose protected health information for the treatment activities of any health care provider (including providers not covered by the Privacy Rule). For example:
  • A primary care provider may send a copy of an individual’s medical record to a specialist who needs the information to treat the individual.
  • A hospital may send a patient’s health care instructions to a nursing home to which the patient is transferred.
But, under 45 CFR § 164.522, individuals have the right to request additional restrictions on the use or disclosure of protected health information for treatment, payment, or health care operations purposes.

Check your Notice of Privacy Practices, restrictions, and your state law.

A signed, witnessed release may not be a bad idea. It's like raising the psychotherapist-patient privilege when testifying even though the plaintiff raised the issue of his mental state.

 
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Disability could be part of the picture to allow the patient to get better treatment. Again, one should not be forced to do the lengthy forensic evaluations. Several insurance companies and Medicaire-Medicaid disability forms usually are on the order of something that could only take a few minutes.

And in many of those questions you as a psychiatrist can't answer most of them anyway. E.g. I got one asking "how much can the patient lift over his head" I answered "This should be answered by a non-psychiatric physician."

Often times disability forms request answers to questions we might not have yet gotten but are related to our field. In which case you just tell the patient you can't fill that part of the form out until you see them again--again it's all billable because it can go in the confines of an office visit.

What to do about the disability companies who want phone consultations to discuss why they've been placed off of work? Often I've been saying no to phone calls because they come to be already being off of work and I redirect back to the PCPs.
 
I've been told that you don't need a release to contact a current provider. Is this true? Do you need one to contact the most recent provider, and if not does it depending on how long since last treatment?
i make it explicit and transparent for therapeutic reasons. In short, anytime I feel that someone is playing one against the other, I make it clear that I am not going to play that game and the best way to counter that is to bring it all out in the open. So talking to the other provider without patient's consent would not serve the purpose of setting my own boundaries.
 
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