FSED experiences

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Groove

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Can anyone chime in on what FSED shifts are really like in most places? I know it's tough to generalize and much is dependent on location but I've heard everything from horror stories about transfer difficulties to blissful low stress shifts where ED docs could extend their retirement. I'm particularly interested in FSED experiences post COVID pandemic. It's probably the one environment I have zero experience with and I don't know whether to stay away from them or not?

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I think it all comes down to patient population and is very heterogeneous.

At OldOldJob, we had a FSED and although it was super-easy work, I hated it because it was in CountryClubVille and people treated it like it was a medspa with a radiology department and a pyxis and wanted it all, now.

At PresentJob, we just opened a FSED about :40 minutes away. I won't work there, because it's too far of a drive (main hospital is presently :45 minutes from door to door), but the transfers that I see coming in from the FSED are legit admits.
 
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Well, the issue with the pandemic is that it's MUCH harder for me to transfer patients into our academic site on the days when I work at one of the community EDs. Tons of roadblocks and I end up having to escalate it to hospital admin repeatedly. At least I have specialists on site at the community ED but transfers can be a real headache. I think the only way I would work at a FSED would be if there was a guaranteed transfer to another hospital within the same system. Then again you're bound to have a few out of network people show up. I just don't like the idea of boarding people in a FSED of all places for hours on end. I'm tempted to just stay away from it but then again...it might be very cush shifts.
 
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Well, the issue with the pandemic is that it's MUCH harder for me to transfer patients into our academic site on the days when I work at one of the community EDs. Tons of roadblocks and I end up having to escalate it to hospital admin repeatedly. At least I have specialists on site at the community ED but transfers can be a real headache. I think the only way I would work at a FSED would be if there was a guaranteed transfer to another hospital within the same system. Then again you're bound to have a few out of network people show up. I just don't like the idea of boarding people in a FSED of all places for hours on end. I'm tempted to just stay away from it but then again...it might be very cush shifts.
My main site is critical access with a 21 bed ER and mid 20,000 annual volume (Aka: we should not be critical access). We have ob, hospitalist and surgery but that’s pretty much it. We are almost always full so I usually feel like I’m a freestanding. I have to admit, Covid bed crunch really has killed my love for this place. It’s definitely a legit concern you have and I would tread carefully depending on surrounding bed status. (Ours sucked, got better, and now sucks again 🤷‍♂️).
 
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I pulled some shifts over a 6 mo period in 2020 at a newly opened “micro”hospital, which was basically a freestanding w/ a tiny attached inpatient unit and a 1-2 room OR that was seldom if ever used.

It was initially super chill, 3-5 pts/shift and sleep most of the night, super low acuity. Later on as censuses increased, it became more of a typical ER pace, albeit still w/ very low acuity and rapid lab/imaging turnaround. I heard after I left it became quite busy, 3+ pph but still reasonably pleasant. Despite it being under the umbrella of a larger hospital, boarding definitely became an issue w/ covid (I never worked there during the worst of times though). Pts were accepted readily but would often have to sit for hours into days waiting for space. Nobody was ever super sick, as EMS really only brought in BLS stuff, but for anything time critical (stemi, cva, surgical stuff) we would transfer ED to ED.
 
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My main site is critical access with a 21 bed ER and mid 20,000 annual volume (Aka: we should not be critical access). We have ob, hospitalist and surgery but that’s pretty much it. We are almost always full so I usually feel like I’m a freestanding. I have to admit, Covid bed crunch really has killed my love for this place. It’s definitely a legit concern you have and I would tread carefully depending on surrounding bed status. (Ours sucked, got better, and now sucks again 🤷‍♂️).
How the hell are you a CAH with over 20k visits a year and a 21 bed ED? You must either transfer everyone, or have the healthiest patient population in the world seeing as, by definition, you can only have <=25 inpatient beds.

I guess that was your point, but this still strikes me as a system which is clearly using a loophole to maintain its CAH status when in reality they should have at least triple their number of inpatient beds in order to operate remotely safely.
 
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How the hell are you a CAH with over 20k visits a year and a 21 bed ED? You must either transfer everyone, or have the healthiest patient population in the world seeing as, by definition, you can only have <=25 inpatient beds.

I guess that was your point, but this still strikes me as a system which is clearly using a loophole to maintain its CAH status when in reality they should have at least triple their number of inpatient beds in order to operate remotely safely.
We do transfer everyone, we have a very unhealthy population and yes, loophole.
 
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I've worked at several FSEDs. Generally the key piece is what is the transport agreement. All of the FSEDs I have worked at are part of a larger hospital system. Any patient who needs to be admitted is called as a regular admit to the larger hospital hospitalist. Nurses then arrange for EMS transportation. No EMTALA, no transfer forms, no accepting docs, no bull****. The hospitalists have been given their marching orders to actually prioritize FSED admits so they do not board at the FSED. Patients with true emergencies that need stat specialist/procedural involvement get immediate transport the main hospital ER (i.e. ruptured ectopic pregnancy). Again, there is no transfer bull****, no anxiously awaiting and pleading for an accepting physician. I simply call my partner at the main hospital and tell them the patient is already on the way and then call the necessary surgeon/specialist at the main hospital for stat consult.

IF your FSED does NOT have such an arrangement with a large hospital, working at these types of ERs can be VERY painful if you have to arrange transfers for every admit and consult. I generally would avoid working at a true independent FSED.

On average the acuity at FSEDs is lower, but sick people walk in the door all time, STEMIs, CVAs, GSWs, etc. The volume is fairly similar to a large ER and actually can be higher because of the larger number of lower acuity patients. Do not expect it to be all urgent care type stuff.
 
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We do transfer everyone, we have a very unhealthy population and yes, loophole.
Wow. I would also assume that basically everyone who gets admitted, regardless of reason is in house for 3-4 days then. CAHs are required to have an average length of stay of <=4 days. Seeing as literally the second a bed opens up, you will likely have a new patient to fill it, I don't see the hospitalists being terribly incentivized to discharge anyone.

Even before the covid crunch, did you like working there? That volume with that utter lack of basic resources would likely make my tenure there a very short one. There has to be an upside I'm missing.
 
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Wow. I would also assume that basically everyone who gets admitted, regardless of reason is in house for 3-4 days then. CAHs are required to have an average length of stay of <=4 days. Seeing as literally the second a bed opens up, you will likely have a new patient to fill it, I don't see the hospitalists being terribly incentivized to discharge anyone.

Even before the covid crunch, did you like working there? That volume with that utter lack of basic resources would likely make my tenure there a very short one. There has to be an upside I'm missing.
Yeah, it was fun. I kind of enjoy having to do everything myself but when I’m managing NSTEMIs and other serious conditions for over a day it is far less fun.
 
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Wow. I would also assume that basically everyone who gets admitted, regardless of reason is in house for 3-4 days then. CAHs are required to have an average length of stay of <=4 days. Seeing as literally the second a bed opens up, you will likely have a new patient to fill it, I don't see the hospitalists being terribly incentivized to discharge anyone.
A lot of places will offer quality metric bonuses to hospitalists based on LOS (in addition to RVUs, readmit rate, etc.) But you're right, sounds disheartening to work in a place where my census would always be maxed out...
 
FSERs depend on if it is private owned or hospital owned. I would say there are 4 buckets and I have worked in all 4. Pay is contractors, have nothing to do with ownership, post covid, private does not take medicare/medicaid, hospital owned takes all similar to a hospital.

1. Private FSER that is slow - Pay typically 150-170/hr. You will typically see less than 10/24 hrs, most nights is sleep throughout but you will get unlucky sometimes. I would say for every 10 shifts, I would see more than 10 on one and get 6+hrs sleep 7/10 shifts. Not bad to pull in close to 4K seeing 7pts that are typically 80% fast track. If you have hobbies, this is a great place to get paid to do photo editing, reading, art stuff, music, etc. I know docs who do telemed during their shift and pull in another $150/hr. I did this once and pulled in an extra 2K on one shift.

2. Private FSER that is busy (relative) - Pay about 175-200/hr, and as they are profitable may do some profit sharing for 1099 workers. You will see 15-25/24 hrs. You will get 6 hrs sleep for 50% of the shift, same 80% fast track. Can't really do much hobbies but you get to watch alot of movies/sports although somewhat interrupted. Not bad making close to 5K/shift. Do 6/mo and you are making 360k/yr. Beats doing 12-15 hospital shifts seeing 2-3 sick pph.

3. Hospital based FSER that is slow. If CMG owns it, you will get pay screwed. I have seen $120-140/hr seeing less than 10ppd. But you get medicare/medicaid/uninsured so typically sicker and admission rate higher. Same % straight sleep as #1 but big difference in being awoke at 2am for a sore throat vs a 75 yr old with "headache/numbness". The later you are up 2-3 hrs and your night is shot.

4. Hospital Based FSER that are busy. Pay prob 175-200. You will not get any RVU/incentive/profit bonus. Volume similar to #2 but now you are seeing 25 pts with 75% medicare/medicaid so they are much more difficult than #2 shift. Sleep is worse than #2 b/c they tend to like coming in at night and workup are difficult. Winter royally sucks seeing 40+ pts and you are making less for the same work/more liability than going into the hospital. You may be seeing 1pph but you feel like you are up all the time b/c of the extended workups.

Transfers for #1/2, sans covid (like every other hospital), are easy. They are 90% insured, hospitals love these pts, and hospitals will send reps to the ER to make transfer easier. Covid was a diff beast b/c there just was no space and hospital owned sites had the same issues.

Transfers for #3/4 are just as easy outside of covid. They are connected, you know the hospitalist, its easier than 1/2 but all 4 environment never game me any transfer issues sans covid.

Depending where you are at in life. I am in the back end of my life so I would Rate it #1>#2>>>3>>>>>>>>4.

I would never Volunteer for #4. Some days you will see 40 pts,, have all the rooms full with medicare pts, poorly staffed, labs/rads takes forever due to poor staffing, unhappy staff, and you are the only doc. I rather work in the hospital than #4. 1-3 definitely beats the hospital.
 
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I will say that FSEDS have saved many EM docs careers, allows them to own and/or work an environment where they have control, and take control back from CMGS/hospitals.

FSEDs should be allowed in all states but will never happen b/c hospitals/CMGS know that they will lose control of the ER cash cow.
 
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I will say that FSEDS have saved many EM docs careers, allows them to own and/or work an environment where they have control, and take control back from CMGS/hospitals.

FSEDs should be allowed in all states but will never happen b/c hospitals/CMGS know that they will lose control of the ER cash cow.
The CMGs in my city are opening up new FSED at an alarming rate. It's an even bigger cash cow for them - charging ER prices for what people think is an Urgent Care.
 
Yes locally here the trend is for each HCA hospital to have a FSED which is relatively close by.

It's all about placement. Pulling patients from a competing hospitals "jurisdiction" and transferring them to their mother ships.
 
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It's all about placement. Pulling patients from a competing hospitals "jurisdiction" and transferring them to their mother ships.

Exactly this.
HCAShop opened up a FSED around the corner from my house, competing with Country Club Medical Center.
What did Country Club Medical Center do then?
Opened up a FSED one exit north on the highway from HCAShop, which is... right off the exit.
 
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I can understand hospitals opening up FSERs and make money by inpatient transfers/built in patient following but How are CMGs like Emcare opening up a bunch of them?

How are the CMGs making money? They charge crazy rates, piss off pts, have docs that care more about getting sleep than pt experience. FC/Neighbors already did this and failed miserably.

I just do not see CMGs making this work unless they somehow have an overwhelming billing advantage
 
I can understand hospitals opening up FSERs and make money by inpatient transfers/built in patient following but How are CMGs like Emcare opening up a bunch of them?

How are the CMGs making money? They charge crazy rates, piss off pts, have docs that care more about getting sleep than pt experience. FC/Neighbors already did this and failed miserably.

I just do not see CMGs making this work unless they somehow have an overwhelming billing advantage

You likely know more about this than I do since you’ve operated a few of these, but could it be to try to capture the facility fees? Overhead is high for sure, especially with the nursing wages that are needing to be paid, but my understanding was that a lot of urgent cares have switched to FSEDs because the facility fees they can change are significantly higher for essentially the same service provided. They don’t have to have a CT at one of these technically right? So you can charge ED levels of billing and transfer everything ED to ED for imaging or try to admit if you also control the Hospitalist group and they complete the workup inpatient. Not necessarily right or efficient, but could be profitable if you’re able to harvest a lot more revenue for essentially the same amount of capital outlay. Really just need an EKG machine, airway box, code cart, doc and nurse to really call yourself an ED right? Point of care labs could also be used so don’t even need a lab on site. I could be completely way off base and these guys could be complete *****s that don’t understand the economics of it. Or there is a different explanation. I guess time will tell us if it was a good idea…
 
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I can understand hospitals opening up FSERs and make money by inpatient transfers/built in patient following but How are CMGs like Emcare opening up a bunch of them?

How are the CMGs making money? They charge crazy rates, piss off pts, have docs that care more about getting sleep than pt experience. FC/Neighbors already did this and failed miserably.

I just do not see CMGs making this work unless they somehow have an overwhelming billing advantage
From the outside, it looked like the TX freestandings failed because of reliance on unsustainable growth (building a hospital so they can bill Medicare?) and severely underestimating the real-estate holdings of local hospital groups. I know several docs that started or invested heavily in FSEDs in Houston with the idea that worst case scenario was they were bought out by Methodist, Hermann, or Luke's for their facility's location. Which is a great plan if Hermann doesn't own a lot 100 yds down the road.
 
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I really think the CMG FSERs will fail. There are too much headwinds. I know the business well and the margin is good if you are able to provide a good service superior to the hospital. When CMGs open FSERs, their doctors/staff are just as disinterested in patient care as the hospital. Also, their level of billing support will just piss off pts. This has been tried by FC, neighbors, and many CMGs in the past with almost all of them failing.

CMG/VC/Private equity wants their money back and want it back quickly. They are top heavy, have much higher expenses, and the margin are too thin for them to make a quick buck. The only advantage I could possibly see is somehow they negotiate higher reimbursement.

I know of two Private doctor run group pre covid who were doing well. One took money from VC/CMG who wanted to hyper-expand which eventually led them to fail miserably. I put the blame solely on the docs who thought bringing in VC money would = infusion of cash = hyper expansion = going back into the market to resell to make a huge windfall.

The 2nd was another group that sold out to a CMG many here know/hate and they all closed down within two yrs.

The margins are slim and I can't see a CMG being able to match the private doc run groups in terms of being lean, improved pt experience, and being happy making above EM pay for a better work environment.
 
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From the outside, it looked like the TX freestandings failed because of reliance on unsustainable growth (building a hospital so they can bill Medicare?) and severely underestimating the real-estate holdings of local hospital groups. I know several docs that started or invested heavily in FSEDs in Houston with the idea that worst case scenario was they were bought out by Methodist, Hermann, or Luke's for their facility's location. Which is a great plan if Hermann doesn't own a lot 100 yds down the road.
Worse case scenario is NOT being bought out by Methodist but putting in 2-5M to build the place and have a 10yr-15 yr lease worth 3-5M that you are reliable for. That is 5-10M of liability if the place doesn't make it.
 
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