Funding for the Veterinary Scientist Training Program (UC Davis version of dual DVM/PhD program)

[FutureZooVet]

Can anyone give me insight into the funding for this program? I've been looking into the program, but I'm confused as to what the funding covers. On the one hand, they say they cover tuition and moderate living expenses ( http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/research/grad_education/vstp/support.cfm ), however in the pdf ( http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/research/local_resources/docs/vstp_terms.pdf ) they say the max funding is $17,000 a year. As many of us know, that's not even enough to cover in-state tuition. Is there a tuition waiver? What is really covered? Also, if anyone is in the program, does six years seem like enough time?

Sorry if this appears twice, I had an error when trying to post the first time.

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[WhtsThFrequency]

I don't know the particulars of the finances, but just wanted to say six years would be VERY lucky. Given that the average PhD in STEM fields takes 5 years alone on average...yeah. I would say 7-8 is more realistic.

 

[nyanko]

Most of the VSTP people I've known HAVE been able to complete the PhD requirements within the 6 years, starting with choosing a lab the summer prior to starting the DVM program and doing research over the summers, when there is time during the DVM program and for the typically 2 dedicated years taken in between V2 and V3, wrapping up during senior year with some number of research weeks for dissertation submission and defense.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Most of the VSTP people I've known HAVE been able to complete the PhD requirements within the 6 years, starting with choosing a lab the summer prior to starting the DVM program and doing research over the summers, when there is time during the DVM program and for the typically 2 dedicated years taken in between V2 and V3, wrapping up during senior year with some number of research weeks for dissertation submission and defense.

It still seems very short to me. How many first-author publications are they required to have before finishing the PhD? In my lab the minimum is five first author papers (in good journals, e.g. J. Immunology, Gastroenterology, PlosOne, etc) and equal to twice as many co-authorships. That many quality pubs in basic science (as opposed to clinical research which is much easier - lucky bastards) that itself takes most people 4 years working nonstop.

I mean, I can see finishing it that fast with 1)a relatively easy project that 2) luckily goes well and 3)maybe only 1-2 pubs. The issue might be whether that PhD was truly as rigorous as a "normal" one or if they kind of make it "PhD lite" so people can finish. The reason I bring up pubs is because those can be critical depending on what you want to do with said DVM/PhD.

 

[nyanko]

WTF - I am not making any argument either way about the comparative quality of the program and I'm not sure what the publication requirements are. I understand what the research/academic publish or perish world is like, remember I have also been involved in it. I was just answering the original question posed - yes, most do tend to finish within the allotted time. They don't generally have to take a whole lot of additional coursework so that cuts down what's usually 2 years of a typical PhD program there, and as I said most of them do tend to still work in the labs both during the first 3 years of DVM coursework (though obviously less so than during the dedicated research portions) and during the summers and 4th year.

It's also obviously very rigorous and challenging in its own right considering the above.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

WTF - I am not making any argument either way about the comparative quality of the program and I'm not sure what the publication requirements are. I understand what the research/academic publish or perish world is like, remember I have also been involved in it. I was just answering the original question posed - yes, most do tend to finish within the allotted time. They don't generally have to take a whole lot of additional coursework so that cuts down what's usually 2 years of a typical PhD program there, and as I said most of them do tend to still work in the labs both during the first 3 years of DVM coursework (though obviously less so than during the dedicated research portions) and during the summers and 4th year.

It's also obviously very rigorous and challenging in its own right considering the above.

I realize I may have come off as sounding like an asshat - I really didn't mean to. I think those programs are indeed very challenging, but my concern is that it is more the craziness of trying to combine the two than the quality of the research. And yeah, again, I know that makes me sound conceited, but do you see what I'm trying to get at? Take two people in two quality labs, and also make one a vet student. I guarantee you the person who doesn't have to deal with the vet school part will be completing more research, publishing more, etc with all other things being equal - they just have more time and brainspace to dedicate to it. Even if you give the vet student an extra year, I don't know how equal it would be. The impression I have been getting the longer and longer I have been out of school is that if you are a DVM/PhD looking for a research job, they are much more concerned with the PhD part of your degree, if that makes sense. I just have a lot of reservations about DVM/PhD programs in general due to their design.

 

[nyanko]

I think it's tough for anyone coming out with a PhD regardless of whether they have a DVM degree or not, and most likely if they want to stay in academic research EITHER WAY they are going to have to complete a postdoc at crap pay for x number of years. At that point anything they can finish during their postdoc years is probably going to matter more than the publications they had during their PhD so I think from that standpoint it isn't going to matter, just sucks more for the person with two doctoral degrees already, depending on their expectations.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think it's tough for anyone coming out with a PhD regardless of whether they have a DVM degree or not, and most likely if they want to stay in academic research EITHER WAY they are going to have to complete a postdoc at crap pay for x number of years. At that point anything they can finish during their postdoc years is probably going to matter more than the publications they had during their PhD so I think from that standpoint it isn't going to matter, just sucks more for the person with two doctoral degrees already, depending on their expectations.

Definitely. Isn't 2 postdocs now the average now for regular newly minted PhDs? Ugh.

 

[nyanko]

Definitely. Isn't 2 postdocs now the average now for regular newly minted PhDs? Ugh.

My ex is still going strong at his first (at the Mayo clinic), I believe it's been 2 years, and he did some really great research on Alzheimer's MR pattern recognition algorithms during his CS PhD (finished in 5 years) which is very relevant and innovative type of work so yeah...

 

[nyanko]

however in the pdf ( http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/research/local_resources/docs/vstp_terms.pdf ) they say the max funding is $17,000 a year. As many of us know, that's not even enough to cover in-state tuition. Is there a tuition waiver? What is really covered? Also, if anyone is in the program, does six years seem like enough time?

The annual amount for each fellowship is capped at $17,000 plus registration fees

Don't get what's confusing about that, by the way...?

 

[FutureZooVet]

I'm confused because they imply they cover all costs, tuition and housing, but then max funding at 17,000 plus registration fees. Are you suggesting registration fees encompass tuition? At my current and past schools registration fees are simply what we pay the offices to process our paperwork. They've reached crazy amounts of $300 or $400, but none of my schools characterized the thousands to tens of thousands you have to pay to attend as "registration fees". I just tried to go back and click the link for registration fees, but it's currently down. Does anyone have any experience attending UC Davis a vet student or undergrad who can offer insight?

 

[epivetlove]

Perhaps the $17k/year is for the PhD part of the program? I'm not sure how dual-degree works at UC Davis, but my dual-degree will have separate costs: tuition for the DVM part and then tuition for the PhD part (20k and 9k, respectively). The department covers my PhD tuition, as well as a decent monthly stipend, but I'm currently on my own for the DVM tuition.

Edit: After reading the website, my above statement may not apply at all to UC Davis' program. Sorry that I'm not of any help.

 

[nyanko]

I'm confused because they imply they cover all costs, tuition and housing, but then max funding at 17,000 plus registration fees. Are you suggesting registration fees encompass tuition? At my current and past schools registration fees are simply what we pay the offices to process our paperwork. They've reached crazy amounts of $300 or $400, but none of my schools characterized the thousands to tens of thousands you have to pay to attend as "registration fees". I just tried to go back and click the link for registration fees, but it's currently down. Does anyone have any experience attending UC Davis a vet student or undergrad who can offer insight?

Are you paying any attention? I just graduated from UC Davis. "Registration fees" is tuition. The UC system does that. Slow your roll okay?

edit: They've actually amended the site as well to update the program length to more like 7 years, just for sake of the previous conversation in this thread.

 

[PhatHippo49]

haha, not sure why there is such hostility towards your question, @FutureZooVet , because the funding amounts confused me as well. My roommate got accepted into VSTP and although I don't know all of the details, her vet school and PhD tuition is definitely completely funded, and she gets a stipend of approx. $500 a month on top of it. That might be what the $17,000 is? If you have decent research experience, you should definitely apply!