g-chem thermodynamics ?

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lets say thers a given rxn that has increasing entropy and is exothermic, so it has a negative delta H and positive delta S.

at very high temperatures, wouldnt the rxn be endothermic because LeChatliers principle states that products would be consumed to for reactants, and heat is on the products side? but apparently, the rxn is nonspontaneous and exothermic....

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Adding heat to a system does not change whether or not a system is exothermic or endothermic. If a reaction is exothermic (heat as a product) and heat is added, the reaction will shift to the left due to Le Chatlier's Principle but the reaction is still exothermic. You can think of exothermic/endothermic as an inherent property of the reaction.
 
jtank said:
lets say thers a given rxn that has increasing entropy and is exothermic, so it has a negative delta H and positive delta S.

at very high temperatures, wouldnt the rxn be endothermic because LeChatliers principle states that products would be consumed to for reactants, and heat is on the products side? but apparently, the rxn is nonspontaneous and exothermic....

^G=^H - T^S

In the case you describe, ^H is negative (exothermic) and ^S is positive (increasing entropy).

No matter what temperature at which you run this reaction, it is exothermic (-^H) and spontaneous (-^G)

Adam
 
(-) delta H and (+) delta S = always spontaneous delta G= (-)
(-) delta H and (-) delta S = spontaneous at lower temps
(+) delta H and (+) delta S = spontanoeous at higher temps
(+) delta H and (-) delta S = never spontaneous delta G= (+)
 
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the last two posters are wrong, because the answer is nonspontaneous and exothermic!!
 
jtank said:
lets say thers a given rxn that has increasing entropy and is exothermic, so it has a negative delta H and positive delta S.

at very high temperatures, wouldnt the rxn be endothermic because LeChatliers principle states that products would be consumed to for reactants, and heat is on the products side? but apparently, the rxn is nonspontaneous and exothermic....



Let's say A + B = C + D + heat

Delta G = (-) Delta S = (+)


According to Delta G = Delta H - T Delta (S), we will have a NEGATIVE value NO MATTER WHAT for the forward reaction. What you are looking at is the reverse reaction by adding heat. Adding heat as a reactant and looking at the reaction as:

C + D + heat = A + B

Delta G = (+) Delta S = (-)
(reverse the signs)

So yes, THIS reaction is endothermic and nonspontaneous.

At high temperatures, the reverse reaction is favored and the reaction would be endothermic... and entropy of the system will decrease.


Draw the energy diagram for an exothermic reaction, then go up and down the graph for each reaction (forward, and then reverse reactions). It might make more sense..

I'm tempted to say the answer is wrong according to my justification. Anyone have more input?
 
firebird69guy, thanks for ur effort, but the correct answer is: nonspontaneous + exothermic.
 
the delta H value you are looking at is only for standard consitions.
 
This has to be spontaneous.

G = H - TS (deltas in front of G, H, and S)

H is negative since the reaction is exothermic, and S is positive since entropy is increasing. As the T increases, you're subtracting an increasingly larger number from an already negative number, leaving you with a G value that is less than 0. A G value of less than 0 is defined as spontaneous.
 
at very high temperatures, wouldnt the rxn be endothermic because LeChatliers principle states that products would be consumed to for reactants, and heat is on the products side? but apparently, the rxn is nonspontaneous and exothermic....

The easiest way to think about it still being exothermic is that you're not getting delta H from the Gibbs equation, you're getting it from the enthalpy difference of the two, which is not going to reverse itself just because you add more heat.

The reaction is still spontaeneous. Either your source is wrong or you're misinterpreting "driven to the reactants side" as "nonspontaeneous".
 
jtank said:
firebird69guy, thanks for ur effort, but the correct answer is: nonspontaneous + exothermic.

It is important to note the difference between instantaneous spontineaity and overall reaction spontineaity. The values you cited for del(H)rxn and del(S)rxn correspond to overall reaction changes (i.e. converting one molar equivalent of pure reactants at standard conditions to one molar equivalent of products at standard conditions) the enthalpy and entropy changes for this process is a constant for the reaction, since they refer the the specific process noted in the parenthases which dictates the reaction conditions exactly.
However, instantaneous values need to be adjusted for concentrations (via Q) and temperature via del(G)=del(G)rxn + RTln(Q). The del(G) (without the rxn subtitle) pertains to instantaneous spontinaeity (i.e. spontineaty at any instant, given values for Q and T) whereas the del(G)rxn refers to the overall reaction spontineaity (the process I described in the first parentheses, i.e. a constant for the reaction).
So as Lechatlier stated, you must apply the stress to a system already at equilibrium. If the system you described has a negative value of del(G)rxn as noted correctly by the previous posters, then at equilibrium ( please note at equilibrium del(g)=0) this dictates RTln(Q) must be positive. If the system is closed (i.e. no mass enters or exits), Q will not vary, but as T goes up del(G) must go up. Therefore the reaction becomes instantaneously nonspontaneous.
Now on to exothermic. del(H) (the instantaneous enthalpy change) essentially only depends on the systems change in potential energy (H=U+PV) for a constant pressure/volume system the potential energy change will determine the instantaneous enthalpy change. Since the potential energy of reactants going to products is the same no matter what the composition of reactant or products is, the enthalpy change will remain negative (and therefore exothermic) no matter whether the system is at equilibrium/reactant heavey/ or product heavey.
 
sab73sab said:
It is important to note the difference between instantaneous spontineaity and overall reaction spontineaity. The values you cited for del(H)rxn and del(S)rxn correspond to overall reaction changes (i.e. converting one molar equivalent of pure reactants at standard conditions to one molar equivalent of products at standard conditions) the enthalpy and entropy changes for this process is a constant for the reaction, since they refer the the specific process noted in the parenthases which dictates the reaction conditions exactly.
However, instantaneous values need to be adjusted for concentrations (via Q) and temperature via del(G)=del(G)rxn + RTln(Q). The del(G) (without the rxn subtitle) pertains to instantaneous spontinaeity (i.e. spontineaty at any instant, given values for Q and T) whereas the del(G)rxn refers to the overall reaction spontineaity (the process I described in the first parentheses, i.e. a constant for the reaction).
So as Lechatlier stated, you must apply the stress to a system already at equilibrium. If the system you described has a negative value of del(G)rxn as noted correctly by the previous posters, then at equilibrium ( please note at equilibrium del(g)=0) this dictates RTln(Q) must be positive. If the system is closed (i.e. no mass enters or exits), Q will not vary, but as T goes up del(G) must go up. Therefore the reaction becomes instantaneously nonspontaneous.
Now on to exothermic. del(H) (the instantaneous enthalpy change) essentially only depends on the systems change in potential energy (H=U+PV) for a constant pressure/volume system the potential energy change will determine the instantaneous enthalpy change. Since the potential energy of reactants going to products is the same no matter what the composition of reactant or products is, the enthalpy change will remain negative (and therefore exothermic) no matter whether the system is at equilibrium/reactant heavey/ or product heavey.


thank you sir, u make the most sense.

heres the exact question from EK 1e exam:

Reaction 1: CO(g) + 1/2O2(g) --> CO2(g) delta H = -283.0 kJ

45. At very high temperatures, Reaction 1 will most likely be:

A) spontaneous and exothermic
B) spontaneous and endothermic
C) nonspontaneous and exothermic
D) nonspontaneous and endothermic

Correct answer is C. I put B.
 
jtank said:
thank you sir, u make the most sense.

heres the exact question from EK 1e exam:

Reaction 1: CO(g) + 1/2O2(g) --> CO2(g) delta H = -283.0 kJ

45. At very high temperatures, Reaction 1 will most likely be:

A) spontaneous and exothermic
B) spontaneous and endothermic
C) nonspontaneous and exothermic
D) nonspontaneous and endothermic

Correct answer is C. I put B.

Your most welcome, brought to you by your local Kaplan teacher/ Ivy league grad :D
 
jtank said:
thank you sir, u make the most sense.

heres the exact question from EK 1e exam:

Reaction 1: CO(g) + 1/2O2(g) --> CO2(g) delta H = -283.0 kJ

45. At very high temperatures, Reaction 1 will most likely be:

A) spontaneous and exothermic
B) spontaneous and endothermic
C) nonspontaneous and exothermic
D) nonspontaneous and endothermic

Correct answer is C. I put B.

You stated your initial question incorrectly...the entropy here is decreasing. That would make the reaction nonspontaneous and C would be the correct answer.
 
TicAL said:
You stated your initial question incorrectly...the entropy here is decreasing. That would make the reaction nonspontaneous and C would be the correct answer.

Yeah, I noticed the same thing...wow, that really makes a whole bunch more sense now. since the entropy is decreasing that would make the T^S figure positive...and since it is in high temp, it would make the ^G equation positive. one small mistake....good job tical
 
TicAL said:
You stated your initial question incorrectly...the entropy here is decreasing. That would make the reaction nonspontaneous and C would be the correct answer.

yes, i did, i feel really dumb now. sorry everyone. i just hopei dont make those kind of silly mistakes on the test...
 
To the OP, when you make a mistake in posting a question and you receive the correct answer for the information you provide, it makes sense not to attack those who are trying to help. In the future you may find people less inclined to explain principles.

Adam
 
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