getting fired or repeating rotations

[liquidshadow22]

In general, how commonly do these two things happen in psychiatry residencies? My guess is that in more demanding surgical fields, getting fired as a resident is more likely than in a psychiatry residency. Is there any data available on this?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if it's easier to coast and get by during medical school vs during residency

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[birchswing]

When you're interviewing at different residencies, be sure to ask what is the most you can possibly get away with without being fired. It could vary from something as benign as not showing up to work to more grey areas like manslaughter depending on how uncool the program is. Be sure to let them know that coasting is a priority for you. Interviews are your time to find out if a program is the right match for you, so don't be afraid to speak up.

 

[wolfvgang22]

In general, how commonly do these two things happen in psychiatry residencies? My guess is that in more demanding surgical fields, getting fired as a resident is more likely than in a psychiatry residency. Is there any data available on this?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if it's easier to coast and get by during medical school vs during residency

 

[Shikima]

OP; The answer to your question is dependent upon your ability to rollerskate while listening to 70s 'club music'.....

 

[vistaril]

In general, how commonly do these two things happen in psychiatry residencies? My guess is that in more demanding surgical fields, getting fired as a resident is more likely than in a psychiatry residency. Is there any data available on this?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if it's easier to coast and get by during medical school vs during residency

getting fired(for nonperformance) or repeating rotations is extremely rare in psychiatry.

Now the standard for getting fired in psych for other offenses is probably similar to most other fields from the perspective of gme. In other words, if you get arrested for money laundering or whatever it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference from gme's perspective what your residency is.

 

[liquidshadow22]

Lol coasting is not a top priority of mine. I just know another former med student who is 100x lazier than me who is having no trouble getting through residency, which surprised me.

 

[Promethean]

Lol coasting is not a top priority of mine. I just know another former med student who is 100x lazier than me who is having no trouble getting through residency, which surprised me.

You really don't know anything about the quality of that person's work. You have an opinion of them based on what you do know, but that doesn't mean that you are fully informed. You would be as immature as you sound were you to base your plans for your own performance on what they might have been able to get away with. Maybe attend a little more to your own business and you won't have any worries about these matters.

 

[oldanddone]

when asking such a question as you did, and then for the reason that you stated, i got this image of your handle - liquid shadow - being this kind of toxic ooze that casts shadow and defamation across those who come close. yuk!

 

[PikminOC]

In general, how commonly do these two things happen in psychiatry residencies? My guess is that in more demanding surgical fields, getting fired as a resident is more likely than in a psychiatry residency. Is there any data available on this?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out if it's easier to coast and get by during medical school vs during residency

:troll:

 

[milesed]

Never saw anyone fired or repeating rotations, but did see a resident one year ahead of me "not invited back" for PGY3. I guess it's almost the same thing.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Despite very strong resident unions, “non-renewal of contract” remains an option for most programs. It lays somewhere in-between you are guaranteed a job for life and there is no way this guy should be allowed to practice medicine. Even the most strident believers of “everybody wins” sees post graduate training as the last chance to impose some level of required competence. Gosh knows medical schools are not failing anyone.

 

[wolfvgang22]

Wait...residents have a union??

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Many do, it makes you wonder what they negotiate for. “We will not work more than 80 hours per week and I need a break at least every 24 hours.” They do tend to get generous vacation and free food.

 

[skunky386]

Getting fired definitely happens during psychiatry residency. At all of the 13 places I interviewed at (mid and low tier programs) I made sure to ask the chief resident how many residents had been let go or terminated in recent memory. Eight of the thirteen programs had lost one resident in recent memory. Three had been let go for issues with repeated tardiness, absenteeism, lying about not showing up to rotations, etc. One had been let go for engaging in a sexual relationship with a therapy patient. One had been let go for substance abuse issues. Two had been let go for not passing step 3 by the program's deadline (seemed like they would be re-hired in a year if they passed though). One had been let go for failure to perform as expected. This last program lost an additional resident because said resident left voluntarily as he "didn't want to practice medicine anymore."

So yes, getting fired does happen during psychiatry residency. It's a job after all. Uprofessional behavior seems to be the biggest factor in one getting terminated, so as long as you're "professional," which largely means that you show up, finish your work, don't lie, and don't engage in sexual misconduct or drug misuse, you'll likely be okay.

Keep in mind that I asked the senior about residents who had been lost in "recent memory", which likely means within the last four or even five years. The majority of places I interviewed at had 4-6 residents per year....so based on this, the termination rate among the programs I interviewed at is something like 2%. Also keep in mind that I interviewed at low and mid tier programs. IMG's make up a larger percentage of residents in these programs, and unprofessional behavior during one's career has been associated with graduating from a foreign medical school.

 

[wolfvgang22]

unprofessional behavior during one's career has been associated with graduating from a foreign medical school.

Source? This sounds like merely your opinion.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

It is very hard to fire a resident unless it is fairly egregious. It takes a lot of documentation and second and third chances at remediation.

Probably a much better screening question would be “have you had residents transfer out of your program and if so why?” These can be innocent and often involve people just having a life; parents get ill, spouse jobs, significant other’s match results, etc. However, a person looking to get away from a program without clear reasons is a bad sign. Sometimes residents just bring unhappiness with them. The less a program is heartbroken to lose someone, the less likely the next program will be described as nirvana by the resident leaving.

When a program should fire someone and doesn’t, that is a very bad thing. When a lot of people are unhappy and leaving, that is a bad thing, but when one person out of thirty leaves in disgust, you should ask how the other 29 people manage to be happy with their training. Odds are great that the source of unhappiness left with the resident who transferred out.

 

[ari202]

can one be fired for not participating in resident retreats or interacting with the residents/faculty outside of work? I'm not too keen on going on happy hours or games with my fellow co-workers, not because I'm introverted or anything but because I'm not into that kind of thing and I would rather spend that time arranging play dates for my kiddos!

 

[Mass Effect]

can one be fired for not participating in resident retreats or interacting with the residents/faculty outside of work? I'm not too keen on going on happy hours or games with my fellow co-workers, not because I'm introverted or anything but because I'm not into that kind of thing and I would rather spend that time arranging play dates for my kiddos!

No one cares if you're spending time with your fellow residents outside of work. Resident retreats are mandatory at most places.

 

[wolfvgang22]

People usually understand if you have kids, as long as you're affable and generally get along otherwise.
Resident retreats are usually mandatory because they typically include an annual meeting with your program director and staff to do any mandatory surveys, review how things are going in the program, and pass along important info or training followed by some team building.

 

[ari202]

thanks! good to know! I saw this one resident during one of my IM rotations who seemed very introverted, he got picked on a lot as he was nervous during presentations and I would hate to be labeled as being introverted when I'm just a stressed out mom trying to balance work and parenthood!

 

[skunky386]

Source? This sounds like merely your opinion.

Not an opinion. Here's the link to my souce. As I haven't read the primary data, I can't say that I'm sold on this, but according to this there exists some evidence that foreign medical graduates have higher rates of unprofessional behavior than american graduates.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=IakproaUguQscAGEFO2pwg&bvm=bv.87920726,d.aWw

 

[splik]

Not an opinion. Here's the link to my souce. As I haven't read the primary data, I can't say that I'm sold on this, but according to this there exists some evidence that foreign medical graduates have higher rates of unprofessional behavior than american graduates.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CE8QFjAI&url=https://www.uic.edu/com/mcme/presentations/juul_042110.ppt&ei=tc0AVfu7BsKGyATKnIDgAQ&usg=AFQjCNFq0HAdH-9uY1In1zUHt0NkOwOXAA&sig2=IakproaUguQscAGEFO2pwg&bvm=bv.87920726,d.aWw

these slides do not support this. They cite one study that found IMGs had higher rates of disciplinary action, which is a very different thing than unprofessional behavior (many of the most unprofessional people are senior figures in american psychiatry and when they get caught out either get their wrists slapped or get promoted), and their overall conclusion was that there was no difference from the literature review between IMG/USMG status and disciplinary action.

In the UK it is definitely true that IMGs are much much more likely to face disciplinary action and lose their license. The evidence appears less clear cut in the US, which is a lot more meritocratic in medicine. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase in disciplinary action against IMGs (which is not a proxy for unprofessional behavior) but there doesn't appear to be unequivocal evidence to support this.

 

[sunlioness]

thanks! good to know! I saw this one resident during one of my IM rotations who seemed very introverted, he got picked on a lot as he was nervous during presentations and I would hate to be labeled as being introverted when I'm just a stressed out mom trying to balance work and parenthood!

God forbid anyone be labeled an introvert. Especially in psychiatry. Heh.

 

[wannabie]

God forbid anyone be labeled an introvert. Especially in psychiatry. Heh.

Freud considered introversion to be an aspect of narcissism. But that's besides the point. Thinking in terms of extroversion and introversion as opposite poles is terribly outdated. People are different in different situations. Their comfort levels, anxiety, knowledge, energy levels, socialization, etc influence how they act. I don't think introversion and extroversion should be judged at all.

 

[y0ung312]

these slides do not support this. They cite one study that found IMGs had higher rates of disciplinary action, which is a very different thing than unprofessional behavior (many of the most unprofessional people are senior figures in american psychiatry and when they get caught out either get their wrists slapped or get promoted), and their overall conclusion was that there was no difference from the literature review between IMG/USMG status and disciplinary action.

In the UK it is definitely true that IMGs are much much more likely to face disciplinary action and lose their license. The evidence appears less clear cut in the US, which is a lot more meritocratic in medicine. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an increase in disciplinary action against IMGs (which is not a proxy for unprofessional behavior) but there doesn't appear to be unequivocal evidence to support this.

Not to mention that one source was a case-control study with unmatched controls... which is a big limitation research-wise.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

No one cares if you're spending time with your fellow residents outside of work. Resident retreats are mandatory at most places.

Yep. Although hanging out some likely fosters some class/group cohesion and makes residency go a little better for most people. Lots of resident hanging out activities could be kid friendly. Retreats, yes, are usually mandatory, although ours never included surveys and other bureaucratic stuff mentioned below. At most programs, retreats are just during the work day. We had a two night overnight thing, but you did have the option of going home at night after evening activities ended. Two nights in the course of a year isn't really that big of a deal, imo, for most people even parents.