girls in mstp?

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strangeattractor

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ok.

so i was looking through some websites with pictures of who is in the mstp program and was wondering what the general breakdown man/woman is for most schools. i kind of get the feeling that there is more men than women. for example, i found virtually no one in my field, which is a little disheartening (i am a girl, but i'm used to having female colleagues).

any thoughts, guys (and gals)?

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Just for my interest, what is your field? I've been happy with the number of women i've been seeing(I'm a guy), but that may be because my old field(computer science) is extremely guy heavy. That said, I have no idea what the numbers are.
 
I've only had three interviews, but in all three cases I met more female MD/PhD students than males.
 
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I've been pleasantly surprised with the number of girls at interviews and in my field (ID/virology). I've also heard, though, that women are still under-represented overall in combined degree programs and that it might even help us in admissions. :) All hearsay though...

Elizabeth
 
doctorvenkman, i'm in biomedical engineering. and afraid of being swamped with testosterone.

hmm. i wonder if there's stats.

tidbit - id is the dope ****. best of luck, girl.
 
Originally posted by strangeattractor
doctorvenkman, i'm in biomedical engineering. and afraid of being swamped with testosterone.

That's funny. I'm a guy, and I would be totally comfortable (and probably a little thrilled) if all of my fellow students were female.

But I could see how you might be a little intimidated, especially since my lab has recently demonstrated the clear intellectual superiority of the male mind.

:D :D :D
 
Originally posted by strangeattractor
the general breakdown man/woman is for most schools. i kind of get the feeling that there is more men than women.

Penn's first year MD/PhD class breakdown is:
7 Men
9 Women
(Note: Penn normally takes around 20 students per year, but this past year was rare because they took 3 out of our first year MD class who are now second years.)

This is wild speculation on my part, but I'd assume that the MD/PhD enrollment mimics the enrollment for MD-only, which is right around 50/50. What field are you in that seems to have so few women? I'm curious.
 
you're funny, ha.

here's a joke for you:

a man is waiting to have a brain transplant and his family is crowded around the bed, waiting to hear if the doctor has found a donor.

the doc walks in.

"well i have two donors." <the crowd cheers> "we could get you a female brain for $50, or a male brain for $500." the men start giggling and looking at one another. one man's wife raises her hand indignantly and says, "why is the man's ten times more expensive?" her husband shouts, "merrill, it's because men are scientifically more intelligent and have better brains then women. just ask the doctor."

to which the doc replies, "no, i'm afraid you're wrong sir. the female brain is cheaper because it's been used."
 
neuronix...that's interesting. biomedical engineering (if you didn't catch it above).
 
Hmmm, I wonder if that's true due to traditional societal pressures on women not to persue heavily mathematical specialties. It does seem like I've met almost exclusively men doing engineering in both undergrad and in grad school. However, one exception is one of the females in my class who is persuing BE.

Still, I would encourage you to proceed. There's certainly no barriers for women in BE relative to any other biomedical science and it's always good to stand out in the right ways!

PS: Yeah, I did miss it above. Sorry about that :)
 
Originally posted by Neuronix
This is wild speculation on my part, but I'd assume that the MD/PhD enrollment mimics the enrollment for MD-only, which is right around 50/50.


I'd agree. In my class at Yale there are 5 boys and 5 girls :D

Overall, though, there are still more men in the MD/PhD programs than women, obviously primarily due to the admission statistics in the last 7+ years, which are slow to change (but have thankfully been changing).
 
In my interviews so far, the applicant male/female split has been 50/50. However, the current students i have met tend to be guys. Maybe thats because guys like to got out for steak dinners and bars more than the ladies or there are simply more guys in MSTP.

Id imagine i would have a better sense of the ratio this friday at cornell with 35 applicants.

As for faculty interviewers, 90% have been middle-aged white men with only a couple pleasant interviews with ladies so far.
 
This is wild speculation on my part, but I'd assume that the MD/PhD enrollment mimics the enrollment for MD-only, which is right around 50/50. What field are you in that seems to have so few women? I'm curious.

this is certainly not true, and the numbers of women in mstp overall are significantly less than men. for those who are interviewing - some years are 'good years' where the class is almost balanced, but if you look at the composition of other years in the same program, the disparities will begin to be made apparent. this issue has many contributing factors, some are systematic and many are not. to start, here is an excellent article entitled "The other physician-scientist problem: Where have all the young girls gone?" in nature medicine:

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nm/journal/v8/n5/full/nm0502-439.html


i included some relevant excertps for those who do not have access to nature med. these are all cited from the article:

About Trends:

"Part of the explanation can be found in patterns of application to graduate educational programs. Taking Harvard Medical School as an example, it is encouraging to see that approximately 50% of the applicants to the MD program and 50% of the applicants to the PhD programs are women. This has been the case for some time, and matriculants generally reflect these proportions. In contrast, however, only 30?35% of the applicants to the Harvard-MIT MD-PhD program are women, and this fraction has not changed over the past 12 years. Of the 310 Harvard MD-PhD graduates since 1974, only 53 (17%) have been women, owing to both fewer female applicants and more attrition among female students. Proportions in other MD-PhD programs are not markedly different2. In other words, women are less likely to enter combined MD-PhD degree programs than they are to enter either MD or PhD degree programs."



The reasons:
"Women in their early 20s consistently cite 4 reasons why they are less likely to choose this career path. Firstly, they are concerned that it will be impossible to combine a successful career with childbearing and family life. There is no question that this was once true, as carefully detailed by Elga Wasserman in her interviews with women members of the National Academy of Sciences4. However, as she also points out, it is decidedly not true now and has not been true for several decades. Most women in science, including women physician-scientists, have husbands and children. But most physician-scientists do not finish their formal education until they are 30 years or older, and they must subsequently negotiate residency and fellowship before they have independent control over their hours. This makes it very difficult to find flexible periods for pregnancy and infant care. Most people still expect women to assume the major responsibilities of caring for children and running the household. These are heavy duties, and the unpredictability of academic careers makes them seem even more daunting.

Secondly, many women feel that they have to be better than their male counterparts to be considered equal. They worry that they will not be able to 'super-compete' at a more advanced level. They feel less comfortable promoting themselves and their work than their male counterparts seem to feel. This problem is exacerbated in physician-scientist training, which is relatively amorphous, has fewer defined milestones and requires more academic entrepreneurship among its trainees.

Thirdly, women receive very little encouragement to become physician-scientists. They hear the same message that men do?that it is hard to succeed as a physician and as a researcher?and are often told that it is even more difficult for women. This message comes from many directions?from family, undergraduate advisors, career counselors and even from individuals assigned to interview them for MD-PhD programs.

Fourthly, they feel that they lack compelling role models. They meet few, if any, women who are highly successful as physician-scientists. They empathize with the struggles faced by younger women faculty. They sense the quiet discontent felt by more senior women who, as documented in the 1999 MIT faculty report, face marginalization and chronic inequities in salary, lab space, recognition, resources and response to outside offers1. At all steps of the tenure ladder, women are uneasy with the culture of academic medicine, and have the perception that one must be highly aggressive to succeed."
 
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Like I said, I didn't know the numbers. Despite efforts to the contrary, research is still male dominated. It doesn't need to be this way. I heard Mildred Dresselhaus(MIT institute Professor, of which there are only 11 at MIT) speak a few months ago, and her message, in short was don't listen to people who tell you what you can't do, do what you want, and persevere. She raised four children and also was tenured. Check it out:
http://web.mit.edu/physics/people/mildred_dresselhaus.htm
 
i'm applying md/phd next year despite the loser prof in my premed department that told me that MSTP programs don't accept many women and discourage them from applying.

:rolleyes:

I just hope the whole committee here isn't that ******ed. SDN has given me a better prospective. :D
 
I honestly hope that with all the women MD/PhD's in the pipeline, that attitudes towards women/mothers/wives in research changes as well. For example, in my experience the men have been more understanding about the "family issues" in my life.

Secondly, many women feel that they have to be better than their male counterparts to be considered equal. They worry that they will not be able to 'super-compete' at a more advanced level
I think the ability to "super compete" is related to the choice to have kids. Women tend to lose ground in the tenure track race(which I'm equating to being able to compete) when they take what I think is excessive time off to raise their children(excluding children born with special needs). The men who have determine who gets tenure respond negatively to this and in some cases I think it's justified. For example, women I know/know of take up to a year off to raise their children after giving birth for each child. I'm the person that went back to the lab 2 weeks early after giving birth because being a stay-at-home mom was NOT for me. Women I know that took reasonable amounts off time after birth( up to 2 months) got tenure at about the same rate as the men.

Overall, I feel extremely blessed and thankful because the issues for women cited by Habari aren't isues for me at all!:clap: :clap:
 
In response to Habari,

I believe that among applicants to Penn's MD/PhD program, a smaller percentage are female as well. However, this does not stop the program from accepting around 50/50. Also, the data for female matriculation cited in reference 2 counts from 1970 - 1990 and the data for Harvard grads in the article counts from 1974 - present. I think it is likely that things have become more even very recently, and I would like to find more recent data on applicants and matriculants within the past 5 years as opposed to numbers compounded over the past 30+ years, as the article reports. Perhaps I am just spoiled by the programs I visited having alot of females. Still, I think my speculation is justified by the observations of the applicants this year who also see a very good female representation. Nevertheless, your point is well taken, that at least historically the MD/PhD pathway has been dominated by males.

I think that regardless of the exact numbers, there is no bias against females in MD/PhD, and indeed they are being actively recruited. My senses lead me to believe that even in the past 5 years things have changed dramatically with regards to the number of females matriculating into MD/PhD programs.

In respose to my UDel friend, don't worry if the committee continues to harass you. I honestly don't think they will, but if they give you a sour letter because you're a female MD/PhD applicant, MD/PhD committees will look right through it.
 
Originally posted by Neuronix
I believe that among applicants to Penn's MD/PhD program, a smaller percentage are female as well. However, this does not stop the program from accepting around 50/50.

So does anyone think this is "fair" to the male applicants?
 
The representation of the x-chromosome at Penn this year is atypical. According to data presented at the MD/PhD Administrators meeting this year, 504 people enrolled in MD/PhD programs in 2003. Of those, 197 were female. So thats something less than 40%. Of the 311 that received NIH-MSTP funding, 123 were women; this means that the percentage is the same no matter what the funding source. Ten years ago, the percentage of women enrolling was in the high 20's; while parity has not yet been achieved, we have made up a lot of ground in the last decade. Do not, however, look for the face of academic medicine to change with any sort of celerity. The only way to speed up the transition of the professoriate to one that is more gender- and ethnically-balanced is to start shooting the old white guys with tenure.
 
Perhaps this horse is dead, but...

DEFINITELY more XY than XX. By far.

Adcoms would love to have 50/50 every year, but despite very strong recruiting and publicity efforts (two different things), it just doesn't happen. Being a qualified female MSTP applicant is a significant advantage. Whether it's a disadvantage at tenure time is an open question (though I will say that if a woman has kids, she better be an even harder worker than her male counterparts to show that the kids aren't as important as RO1s - obviously, not my personal view, but what I've observed). Not fair either on either end - just the way it is (wouldn't a perfect world be, well, just perfect?).

Maybe this isn't a dead topic after all.

P
 
Here at WashU the ratios just about even.

I only know of two MSTs in BME- 1 guy, 1 girl.
 
Originally posted by Primate
(though I will say that if a woman has kids, she better be an even harder worker than her male counterparts to show that the kids aren't as important as RO1s

Could you clarify what you mean by "worker harder than her male counterparts"? I guess I just don't see the relationship between workring hard and having kids unless of course you assume that because a woman has kids that she will automatically need more time to get her tenure track **** together. If you're relating to the issue I mentioned earlier about some women taking lots of time off when they have kids, then I see your point. Otherwise, I'll have to objectify myself as much as possible to keep from seeing your post as being just a tad bit mysoginist.

I personally think kids or no kids women have to worker harder than men because many academic departments are still full of men that believe women are NOT thier professional equals.
 
the best reason i have ever heard for getting an MD/PhD is to impress woman- simply put -woman do not need to do this- really though, an applicant sain that to me on an interview- i gave him a great review but he went to a much better program.

on the other, as woman are much smarter than men it makes sense to me that few of them would choose such crazy career path-

and- women who have kids do have to work harder-at everything- just ask my wife-

-p
 
Originally posted by pbp4
and- women who have kids do have to work harder-at everything- just ask my wife-
-p

As a woman with a family, I guess I just don't feel I have to work harder in my profession because of my family. As a matter of fact, excluding my work in the lab and in school, I don't characterize my family life as a situation where I "work hard" (especially given the mess my home is in now) as much as I see it as taking care of business.
 
Why should a woman do anything she doesn't feel like? If about 30% of women apply to the combined degree programs and 30% of accepted students are women, why should there be any effort to pull women who didn't want to apply away from other things to become MD/PhDs? It would be a different story of 70% of applicants and 20% of matriculants were women, but clearly that's not the case. And to counter the expected argument that there *should* be 50% of each gender in the field, why? Should the men who apply because they are as interested in this career as the perfectly matched men and women be punished because they didn't bring a partner with them? Would there be a problem if the ratio were reversed to be 70% women and 30% men?

That said, most of the MD-PhD attrition I have seen has come from women, although I do see great women scientists come through as well. It seems that with the greater number of male applicants, very often the adcoms can be more selective with the bottom tier male applicants than the bottom tier female applicants. The top women and top men do just as well as each other, frequently resulting in a bimodal distribution of women scientists/physicians. The fact of the matter is, those who are good in what they do will do well regardless of their gender, and those who place their priorities elsewhere will eventually fail the mechanism that forcefully placed them in a program they never really wanted to be in.

Interestingly, there was this myth that only women with "weak" husbands aka future stay-at-home-dads will do well in science/medicine. That hasn't exactly been the case based on what I have seen. I think it really comes down to each woman and whether they were (objectively) a good fit for the dual degree training to start with, regardless of how much maternity leave they take or how many women role models they had.
 
Originally posted by tofurious
That said, most of the MD-PhD attrition I have seen has come from women. I think it really comes down to each woman and whether they were (objectively) a good fit for the dual degree training to start with, regardless of how much maternity leave they take or how many women role models they had.
Tofu, you bring up some very good points and highlight one of issues I have wih some women in medicine/science. Women have to use some good ole common sense when choosing careers. However, I disagree about the importance of woman role models. I solidified my decision to pursue MD/PhD AFTER establishing a strong relationship with a minority woman MD/PhD from UPenn. Without a doubt she has been and still is my biggest support.
Originally posted by tofurious
Interestingly, there was this myth that only women with "weak" husbands aka future stay-at-home-dads will do well in science/medicine. That hasn't exactly been the case based on what I have seen.
Let's just see how many you marry your female classmates or will your egos only allow you to marry a woman with the body of Britney and the brains of Jessica Simpson:rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Women role models for women scientists are probably beneficial but not essential. Whether it's necessary is debatable.

I think I might pick a Britney-type model over one of my classmates, although both groups tend to have deep seeded psychiatric issues... (Jessica Simpson, on the other hand, is plain nuts)
 
Jesicca Simpson thought buffalo wings were made of buffalo. 'Nuf said. :)
 
ack, how did the corporate ****** <britney, jessica> make it into my TOTALLY LEGITIMATE POST? you would chose them as role models or partners? huh?

female medical students have deep seated psychiatric issues? what are you talking about? ack! ack!
 
Talking about Britney and Jessica is much more interesting than talking about MSTP recruitment, application and matriculation. That's why there is no TV show about the med school application process...
 
Why should a woman do anything she doesn't feel like? If about 30% of women apply to the combined degree programs and 30% of accepted students are women, why should there be any effort to pull women who didn't want to apply away from other things to become MD/PhDs? It would be a different story of 70% of applicants and 20% of matriculants were women, but clearly that's not the case. And to counter the expected argument that there *should* be 50% of each gender in the field, why? Should the men who apply because they are as interested in this career as the perfectly matched men and women be punished because they didn't bring a partner with them? Would there be a problem if the ratio were reversed to be 70% women and 30% men?

what a novel argument. the point is that such a skewed breakdown points to systematic problems that do not necessarily start with the md/phd admissions process [but they certainly help maintain the status quo]. the same argument has been used for centuries [with regards to women in the professional environment, women in medicine ... there is are numerous examples related and unrelated to women/careers throughout history]. and yes, there sure as hell would be a problem if the ratio would be 70% women and 30% men. instead of me reinventing the wheel for this situation - take a moment to read relevant literature related to this topic before expousing such asinine theories.


Women role models for women scientists are probably beneficial but not essential. Whether it's necessary is debatable.

don't be a fool. regardless how you want your data, it's necessity has not been questioned by anyone in touch with these issues. sure, anything is debatable.
 
Tofu, you bring up some very good points and highlight one of issues I have wih some women in medicine/science. Women have to use some good ole common sense when choosing careers. However, I disagree about the importance of woman role models. I solidified my decision to pursue MD/PhD AFTERestablishing a strong relationship with a minority woman MD/PhD from UPenn. Without a doubt she has been and still is my biggest support.

you and Justice Janice Rogers Brown should hold a colloquim on this. sounds like you'd get along swimmingly.

while it is great to be a successful outlier - think about how many others haven't even thought about pursuing this path becuase it never entered their sphere of thought.
 
I don't think you've answered my question: WHY should there be a 50-50 divide down the middle for men and women? If the divide should be exactly that way, then there is a problem with medical school recruitment and admission nowadays because there are more women than men now (see another thread in General Residency). I think the point of my "expousing such asinine theories" - as you so eloquently put - is that the absolute percentage doesn't make much sense. Is 30-70 better than 20-80? How is 40-60 better? If there are 300 men and 350 women interested in medicine, and there are 75 spots available, is a combination of 30 men and 35 women reasonable? There are probably more women psychiatrists and pediatricians and more male orthopedic surgeons. Should we make sure there is one woman for every man in each field REGARDLESS of what these ambitious driven and intelligent men and women want to do? Why should we change people's interests so we can social engineer a world where everything and everyone is the same?

And before you "expouse" any "asinine theories" of your own, PLEASE answer the WHY question above.
 
it seems obvious that plain 1:1 titleIXesque quotas are not the point, merely policy measure used to catalyze change. the point is that if you see large disparities, it points to systematic problems of access and exposure. the smaller sample size you get to, and the more specific the skills required to perform a task, differences based on ability and preference will be manifested in a way independent of access and exposure.

until you can say that exposure, access and barriers for men and women [same goes for minorities/non-minorities] are equal to a particular area - then systematic factors bias choices independent of 'social preference'.

my cousin is an orthopedic surgeon and attending [n=1], if you can show me that the culture of the sub-specialty isn't male oriented and dominated (there are articles in ortho specialty journals about this issue; NRMP data residency: 9% of all orthopedic residents are women)
 
Originally posted by tofurious
Why should we change people's interests so we can social engineer a world where everything and everyone is the same?

I don't think the arguement is so much about getting 50/50 women/men into the programs as much as it it about making women aware that some careers in academia are a good fit personally and professionally for women. Believe it or not, acadmeia is traditionally known as very female unfriendly a fact I attribute as much to male "attitudes" about women as much as women beleiveing that this choice is a bad professional "fit".

while it is great to be a successful outlier - think about how many others haven't even thought about pursuing this path becuase it never entered their sphere of thought.

Habari. could you explain what you were trying to say by referring to Justice Janice Rogers Brown (I'm not familiar with her views)? I think you may have missed my point , so I'll explain a little more here. When I say women need to use common sense in choosing a career I'm referring to the young 23 year-old MSTP that wants to become a surgeon and have 5 kids. While I'm not putting this choice down, it seems a pretty daunting undertaking. I also think you're right about the fact that this choice has rarely entered the minds of many women and minority premed students.
 
"Janice Rogers Brown is the far right?s dream judge,? said People For the American Way President Ralph G. Neas. ?She embodies Clarence Thomas?s ideological extremism and Antonin Scalia?s abrasiveness and right-wing activism. Giving her a powerful seat on the DC Circuit Court would be a disaster.?

?Janice Rogers Brown has a record of hostility to fundamental civil and constitutional rights principles, and she is committed to using her power as a judge to twist the law in ways that undermine those principles, said Hilary Shelton, director, NAACP Washington Bureau. ?For the administration to bring forward a nominee with this record and hope to get some kind of credit because she is the first African American woman nominated to the DC Circuit is one more sign of the administration?s political cynicism.?

The report released today, ?Loose Cannon,? notes that when Brown was nominated to the state supreme court in 1996, she was found unqualified by the state bar evaluation committee, based not only on her relative inexperience but also because she was ?prone to inserting conservative political views into her appellate opinions? and based on complaints that she was ?insensitive to established precedent.?

The report carefully examines Brown?s record since she joined the court, especially her numerous dissenting opinions concerning civil and constitutional rights. Brown?s many disturbing dissents, often not joined by a single other justice, make it clear that she would use the power of an appeals court seat to try to erect significant barriers for victims of discrimination to seek justice in the courts, and to push an agenda that would undermine privacy, equal protection under the law, environmental protection, and much more.
 
All Animals are Equal
But some animals are more equal than others.
 
Hey Pathdr2b,

Re-read my posts with an eye toward sarcasm, it may be enlightening. As for hating women, as you almost imply, my point was that it is not an equitable situation for men and women. I have kids - not a problem. My female classmates with kids - they've ALREADY had problems (one is repeating a rotation!). So, no, treatment is not equal. No, it is not fair. No, it is not the way I would have it. No, it is not the way I will run things when I rule the world. . . ahem, when I am no longer a scut-monkey.

Point is, women often get the short end of the stick. If one (XX OR XY) decides to spend less time working, then one should expect to spend a longer time getting toward tenure (or accept a non-tenure track position), man OR woman. If one wants tenure on a normal schedule, then one would hope to be on equal footing with one's colleagues. However, my observation is that a woman who has kids has to work even harder than a man with them, and this is just plain TRUE. Not, notice, fair.

I usually call 'em as I see 'em, and that's the way it seems to be at the moment.

In sum, I am indeed saying that a woman with kids has a harder time getting tenure (not necessarily "getting her tenure **** together," just getting tenure period). I recognize that this is not fair, and I thought that was the obvious thrust of my post.

Please use more care with words like "misogynist."

P
 
Originally posted by Primate
As for hating women, as you almost imply, my point was that it is not an equitable situation for men and women.
Primate, I got the sarcasm. But your argument is just plain pathetic in places. Case in point:
However, my observation is that a woman who has kids has to work even harder than a man with them, and this is just plain TRUE. Not, notice, fair.
For example, I'm just curious about WHY you feel this way? Do you personally KNOEW any mothers in academia well enough to make this assertion? Or are you just speculating? ALLf the people I personally know in academia male and female work hard. But then again, all of the people I know in academia without kids work hard too.

I have kids - not a problem. My female classmates with kids - they've ALREADY had problems (one is repeating a rotation!). So, no, treatment is not equal.
I recently missed 3 weeks from my pathology course because my daughter was ill. So is this "hard" because I'm a woman? I don't think so especially since I got an "A" on a test I hadn't attended 1 lecture for. As to the student who had to repeat a rotation, so what? Will she likely finish medical school? Highly likely ,so what's the point of mentioning her missed rotation?

If one (XX OR XY) decides to spend less time working, then one should expect to spend a longer time getting toward tenure (or accept a non-tenure track position), man OR woman.
I always thought teneure was determined by productivity not necessarily "time" in place. Why should a tenure committee care if I took 4 moths off for maternity leave when I publish regularily?
 
I feel this way because, yes, I know several individual cases. If you have not seen a double standard in science, well then maybe the NIH is just that enlightened. In the rest of the world, it is simply not so. Women have a tougher road to hoe. Science is not a pure meritocracy, and how hard someone works is not always the criterion used for promotion and tenure.

Congratulations on the A. You were allowed to finish and I'm sure you did quite well. The point of mentioning my classmate was not that she missed a rotation, but that she was not ALLOWED to complete one because she had to miss a couple classes due to child care. I know other people who've missed for different reasons and that has been fine. Will she finish med school? Of course she will. Will she have more difficulty scheduling rotations before a Dean's letter goes out? Yes. Will she get a bad grade on a separate rotation because of missing time for child care? Looks that way. Does all this matter? In my opinion these are not trivial concerns.

Your last point implies that taking 4 months off has no effect on productivity. I took at least that much time off with my kids, and my productivity did suffer. So my PhD took a couple extra months - not a problem and I was more than happy to spend the extra time in the lab doing work that was necessary but had been deferred. It's difficult to conduct experiments when you're not physically in the lab for months. To expect otherwise is, I would submit, naive.

As for a pathetic argument, well, I'll leave that for others to decide. You and I seem to have an obvious difference of opinion here. I believe that there is a double standard in science. You apparently do not. Would that I agreed with you.

I hope you never experience a double standard,
P
 
Originally posted by Primate
If you have not seen a double standard in science, well then maybe the NIH is just that enlightened. Science is not a pure meritocracy, and how hard someone works is not always the criterion used for promotion and tenure.
In case you didn't know, I'm a minority and a woman so of course I've encountered unfairness. But at some point people have to stop using their race and gender as excuses and get on with the business of handling their business. A woman can't take 2 years off to raise their children while their young because she chooses to and expect that she'll get tenure at the same rate as everyone else. THIS is what angers me because the men will assume I plan to do the same thing and hold her choices against me.

As to the NIH, everyone knows that the NIH is known for having a very small percentage of women with tenure. However, I remain undaunted by this because obviously if "challenges" were a problem , I'd give up the notion of being a forty-something MD/PhD student. Again, my advice to overcoming this is to find mentors female and/or male whose lives you want to emulate early in your career, and stick to them like glue.

The point of mentioning my classmate was not that she missed a rotation, but that she was not ALLOWED to complete one because she had to miss a couple classes due to child care.
With all due respect, missing a rotation due to not having child care is no excuse, missing it due to a child's illness is another story although I doubt many medical school's will accept it.

Your last point implies that taking 4 months off has no effect on productivity. It's difficult to conduct experiments when you're not physically in the lab for months. To expect otherwise is, I would submit, naive.
Please reread my statement. I'm talking about productivity in the quest for tenure not a PhD. It takes the average person 8-10 years to get tenure, so no I don't think taking even as much a 1 year off will affect the tenure race IF a person maintains productivity. I also managed to get some writing done during my recent absence from the lab so the key word here is MULTITASKING!!!!

In the end I guess this little debate we're having depends on the perspective your coming from. Women in my family have worked, some by choice and others by necessity, for many generations so the idea of balancing is not news to us. The idea of unfairness is not news to us either. Maybe your background is different which is why we see this issue so differently.

Finally, Primate I'd just like to say that fair treatment of working women begins with each of us. Why don't you try preparing more of your families meals, doing some laundry, or cleaning the house so that your part in the quest for the equity for working women will be fullfilled!:laugh:
 
Originally posted by jberg4
Jesicca Simpson thought buffalo wings were made of buffalo. 'Nuf said. :)

at one point, i am sure everyone did, 'nuf said :p
 
"Finally, Primate I'd just like to say that fair treatment of working women begins with each of us. Why don't you try preparing more of your families meals, doing some laundry, or cleaning the house so that your part in the quest for the equity for working women will be fullfilled!"

THANK YOU! FINALLY!

you know what i hate? i hate how this whole "kids" thing falls on the woman's lap. yes, nine months are given that the woman has to take off. other than that, it's both gender's issue to raise the child. and the planning to have the kid is generally speaking, both gender's issue. nine months should NOT affect tenure. the fact that WOMEN in this post are always taking off to take care of the kids - unless they are single mothers, which i undoubtedly respect (i'm the daughter of one) - where the h*** is the dad? and even then, what about single dads? why is it ONLY the woman's responsibility (as suggested by the omission of the father's responisibility in raising a child here) to take care of an ill child, etc. men have held these positions, and tenure for YEARS while having family - ugh, this is really quite a non-issue for me.

and seriously, i think the kind of intelligence that merits acceptance into an md/phd program would not choose to have five children AND be a surgeon - AND not have someone else there to take care of the five kids. let's get real. i almost feel that statement was a little condescending.

as for MY part. we plan on adopting - and a long time from now, maybe even after i am out of school. and my guy is absolutely ready to do his share of raising the kids. so tell me exactly how being a woman in the absence of a moderately biased "recruitment process" (low encouragement for women to pursue academic and scientific careers from age 0 on) will change my chances of tenure, or of doing better in school.
 
Great points, Strangeattractor.!!!

As to the woman surgeon wioh five kids, that was a hypothethical, but if you get a chance check out mommd.com. You'll see what I'm talking about.

This also brings up another point for debate and that is the future husbands of future MD/PhD's. Ladies, all I can say is choose wisely and you may want to avoid some of the types seen on this board:laugh: :laugh:
 
Interesting that you would feel qualified to comment on my personal situation and whether or not I do laundry. You know not of what you speak. Period.

Further, you seem to consistently miss my point that thre referenced treatment is both unfair and unacceptable. Go figure.

Good day.
 
Originally posted by Primate
Interesting that you would feel qualified to comment on my personal situation and whether or not I do laundry. You know not of what you speak. Period.

Common, Primate where is that sarcasm you spoke so eloquently about a few posts ago? BTW, I bet your wife deos far more laundry, cooking, cleaning, homework, vacuuming, playdates, soccer practice, mopping, ironing, takes more sick leave, wipe more noses, cleans more ears, and removes more lint from places that you probably don't know even exist. Now that I think about, you're right being a woman is hard:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
Oh, would that you were right about more of the above! Suffice it to say that we do have an unequal but quite equitable division of labor (even per her, not just by my accounting - she's following this debate). ;)

My point is only that I strongly believe that a double standard exists. I do not find it fair or right and will continue to work towards eliminating it. You apparently disagree with me here, and I hope that the time and experience in science don't change your opinion about how the system works, but I know of too many examples to the contrary to think that all people are considered on their merits alone. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I suppose. Either that or I should leave this august institution and head to the NIH!

I only report what I believe to be the case, NOT what I think is acceptable. Again, I truly wish that productivity and ability were all that mattered. Perhaps if enough people work toward making the system operate that way, it will be so.

Until then,
P

PS - while I'm sure you intended some of your previous remarks in jest or with sarcasm, please do bear it in mind that people may find such things less amusing when directed AT them rather than stated in general. Here's to keeping the debate good natured. :)
[end transmission]
P
 
Originally posted by Primate
My point is only that I strongly believe that a double standard exists. I do not find it fair or right and will continue to work towards eliminating it. Either that or I should leave this august institution and head to the NIH!

I never said I don't think a double standard exists, especially if you happen to be an attractive woman, what I did say was that I don't feel I work any harder than the men do. However, at some point, the "woe is me, I'm a black woman in academia" arguement begins to get old and counterproductive.

As for the NIH comment what can I say. Despite the low numbers of tenured women here (I haven't yet decided if a tenured position is my goal because I could be just as happy or happier in a staff physician/scientist position), I plan to do my dissertation research here and my residency (if they'll have me). I only plan to leave to do a 1 or 2 year psot graduate fellowship somewhere else, and then get right back down here. Goverenment positions aren't for everyone but of all the environments I've worked in a research capacity, it's by far the most gender, minority, and family friendly.
 
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