Giving up on this

[Lostin_space]

I think I am officially giving up on my dream of pursuing a pain fellowship. I don't know if it's because I'm a gal, because I'm small, or what but it doesn't seem I'm getting any of what I pictured to pursue a fellowship. I started a new pain rotation, I was all excited, even started pre-reading, was all stocked - there was a change of atendings so I introduce myself to the attending, tell him who I am, bla bla, ask him what he would like me to do, etc. and he kind of just stares at me like I'm crazy and says - umm bring the patient for consents? That's awsome. I was allowed to do no procedures, the fellow who was also there also got to do no procedures, and I was ignored most of the day.
None of the people I've contacted in search of research have either replied, or I have been told that they don't have anything going on right now, even people who are notorious for being research buffs.
So frustrating and demoralizing.

I guess it's not in the cards for me. I guess I just don't get why or what I could have done differently to create a different situation for myself.

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[SSdoc33]

I think I am officially giving up on my dream of pursuing a pain fellowship. I don't know if it's because I'm a gal, because I'm small, or what but it doesn't seem I'm getting any of what I pictured to pursue a fellowship. I started a new pain rotation, I was all excited, even started pre-reading, was all stocked - there was a change of atendings so I introduce myself to the attending, tell him who I am, bla bla, ask him what he would like me to do, etc. and he kind of just stares at me like I'm crazy and says - umm bring the patient for consents? That's awsome. I was allowed to do no procedures, the fellow who was also there also got to do no procedures, and I was ignored most of the day.
None of the people I've contacted in search of research have either replied, or I have been told that they don't have anything going on right now, even people who are notorious for being research buffs.
So frustrating and demoralizing.

I guess it's not in the cards for me. I guess I just don't get why or what I could have done differently to create a different situation for myself.

you are probably right. just give up. if one attending wasnt nice to you on one day, then your 8 years of post college training should just be flushed down the toilet.

OR

stop blaming everybody else and pursue what you want to do. more than one way to skin a cat. this may come as a shock to you, but life is not fair. you have 2 choices: mope, complain, and play the victim or make something out of yourself.

in retrospect, i worked for attendings who could barely tie their shoes. i certainly wouldnt put much stock into the way you were treated by one.

i can guarantee you one thing, however. you can complain all you want, but nobody will care. nobody will care in real life, and nobody will care online. and drop the gender act. nothing to do with it. neither does stature, for that matter. nor hair color. nor the brand of scrubs that you wear.

i doubt the advice will be any different on the PMR forum than it will on the pain forum.

 

[Lostin_space]

you are probably right. just give up. if one attending wasnt nice to you on one day, then your 8 years of post college training should just be flushed down the toilet.

OR

stop blaming everybody else and pursue what you want to do. more than one way to skin a cat. this may come as a shock to you, but life is not fair. you have 2 choices: mope, complain, and play the victim or make something out of yourself.

in retrospect, i worked for attendings who could barely tie their shoes. i certainly wouldnt put much stock into the way you were treated by one.

i can guarantee you one thing, however. you can complain all you want, but nobody will care. nobody will care in real life, and nobody will care online. and drop the gender act. nothing to do with it. neither does stature, for that matter. nor hair color. nor the brand of scrubs that you wear.

i doubt the advice will be any different on the PMR forum than it will on the pain forum.

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm saying that despite trying endlessly I have gotten zip. And it's been much more than 8 years - I've done prior research in med school, got a master's, switched from a prior residency, worked in industry, etc. I have very aggressively tried to pursue this, and that's the thing. I have tiredlessly sought out advisors, research, tried to get involved, tried to network, etc. It's not one attending not "being nice" it's the automatic - are you serious? look. I rotated in the pain dept. a few months back and worked my butt off, yet got nada despite repeated requests. I was the only gal there, and not a single female attending in the entire dept. I guess I was too boring and did not join the guys on the strip club and beer venture. Prior 4 people who matched into my program's pain program were all dudes - not a single woman has matched there in the last 15 years. What else am I to do?

 

[SSdoc33]

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm saying that despite trying endlessly I have gotten zip. And it's been much more than 8 years - I've done prior research in med school, got a master's, switched from a prior residency, worked in industry, etc. I have very aggressively tried to pursue this, and that's the thing. I have tiredlessly sought out advisors, research, tried to get involved, tried to network, etc. It's not one attending not "being nice" it's the automatic - are you serious? look. I rotated in the pain dept. a few months back and worked my butt off, yet got nada despite repeated requests. I was the only gal there, and not a single female attending in the entire dept. I guess I was too boring and did not join the guys on the strip club and beer venture. Prior 4 people who matched into my program's pain program were all dudes - not a single woman has matched there in the last 15 years. What else am I to do?

wow. ok.

you are really going to need to honestly take a good hard look at yourself here. i am going to make some statements that you may not like, but at least try not to dismiss them out of hand.

your belief that your lack of "success" is due to the fact that you are a woman, or short, is a rationalization. it is a defense mechanism to protect yourself from actually seeing that you may not be as talented or qualified as you would like to believe. in all likelihood, it is this attitude ITSELF that has held you back.

why do you have this mindset? that is for the psychologists to figure out. could be from a lot of things. maybe your parents divorced as a kid. maybe you were abused. maybe you have struggled with depression/anxiety for years. maybe there is a gender identity issue. i dont presume to know, but i do know that these issues should be hashed out with a professional. you really need to sit on a couch and take responsibility for yourself, first and foremost. you will be a much better doctor if you are healthy yourself.

 

[Lostin_space]

wow. ok.

you are really going to need to honestly take a good hard look at yourself here. i am going to make some statements that you may not like, but at least try not to dismiss them out of hand.

your belief that your lack of "success" is due to the fact that you are a woman, or short, is a rationalization. it is a defense mechanism to protect yourself from actually seeing that you may not be as talented or qualified as you would like to believe. in all likelihood, it is this attitude ITSELF that has held you back.

why do you have this mindset? that is for the psychologists to figure out. could be from a lot of things. maybe your parents divorced as a kid. maybe you were abused. maybe you have struggled with depression/anxiety for years. maybe there is a gender identity issue. i dont presume to know, but i do know that these issues should be hashed out with a professional. you really need to sit on a couch and take responsibility for yourself, first and foremost. you will be a much better doctor if you are healthy yourself.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by being "talented" - I think my record speaks for itself. If everything that I have accomplished is not "success" then I don't know what is first and foremost. Second I realize that it may be difficult for you to understand as a guy, but if you don't think that there are certain fields that are very anti-gal, then I have a news coming for you. Even when I did Radiology and was a rock star, there was a lot of anti girl sentiment. I was the only girl in my class, and no other women in the 2 classes above me. I was even guaranteed an IR fellowship and that also created a lot of negativity. Has nothing to do with talent. Talented I am in many ways, and that's been noted throughout my medical and academic career. I can't do miracles though. That's not feasible. So just like everyone else I need a mentor and some assistance. When I go to my program's department without them even knowing me and I express my interest and get nothing, see no other women faculty and no woman having matched in the program in years - you really think it's all related to me. Really? I think not.

 

[SSdoc33]

I'm not sure what you are referring to by being "talented" - I think my record speaks for itself. If everything that I have accomplished is not "success" then I don't know what is first and foremost. Second I realize that it may be difficult for you to understand as a guy, but if you don't think that there are certain fields that are very anti-gal, then I have a news coming for you. Even when I did Radiology and was a rock star, there was a lot of anti girl sentiment. I was the only girl in my class, and no other women in the 2 classes above me. I was even guaranteed an IR fellowship and that also created a lot of negativity. Has nothing to do with talent. Talented I am in many ways, and that's been noted throughout my medical and academic career. I can't do miracles though. That's not feasible. So just like everyone else I need a mentor and some assistance. When I go to my program's department without them even knowing me and I express my interest and get nothing, see no other women faculty and no woman having matched in the program in years - you really think it's all related to me. Really? I think not.

first of all, how do you know that im not a woman?

second of all, your entire response was another rationalization. cant you see that? can you acknowledge your role in this situation? you act as if you are the perfect candidate and the perfect doctor.

 

[Lostin_space]

first of all, how do you know that im not a woman?

second of all, your entire response was another rationalization. cant you see that? can you acknowledge your role in this situation? you act as if you are the perfect candidate and the perfect doctor.

There is no such thing as "perfect." We are all human beings. With that said, some people are bad, some people are average, some people are great. I have a great record, and have worked hard at having one, and I'm a great resident/physician. I'm not sure why we are talking about perfection here? I never said that I was perfect. A rationalization has nothing to do with anything. What you are suggesting makes no sense.
Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't obstacles in the medical field for women, and in many other high powered profession? Because if that's what you are suggesting, then you are not well informed. I come from another predominantly male dominated specialty and there is no question that there is anti-women sentiment in the field, especially when it comes to IR. How many women are in IR? Same thing with other procedural specialties, just like pain, ortho, etc. Very few women in the field. Suggesting otherwise is the same thing as denying the vast dearth of women in high ranking positions, whether it be professorships, chair positions, etc.

Are you really denying this? If so, not sure why to bother continuing this conversation.

I have even talked to a handful of female fellows across the country and they share the same feelings I do, and they had a hell of a time getting opportunities and what not. Do they also suck? We all just suck I guess.

But the guys are all great, it's their innate genius. I'm sure the strip club and beer nights have nothing to do with the male bonding and preference, which of course I was not invited to, and only found out when I had to "cover" for procedures for one of the other residents who did not feel well that day.

 

[SSdoc33]

There is no such thing as "perfect." We are all human beings. With that said, some people are bad, some people are average, some people are great. I have a great record, and have worked hard at having one, and I'm a great resident/physician. I'm not sure why we are talking about perfection here? I never said that I was perfect. A rationalization has nothing to do with anything. What you are suggesting makes no sense.
Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't obstacles in the medical field for women, and in many other high powered profession? Because if that's what you are suggesting, then you are not well informed. I come from another predominantly male dominated specialty and there is no question that there is anti-women sentiment in the field, especially when it comes to IR. How many women are in IR? Same thing with other procedural specialties, just like pain, ortho, etc. Very few women in the field. Suggesting otherwise is the same thing as denying the vast dearth of women in high ranking positions, whether it be professorships, chair positions, etc.

Are you really denying this? If so, not sure why to bother continuing this conversation.

I have even talked to a handful of female fellows across the country and they share the same feelings I do, and they had a hell of a time getting opportunities and what not. Do they also suck? We all just suck I guess.

But the guys are all great, it's their innate genius. I'm sure the strip club and beer nights have nothing to do with the male bonding and preference, which of course I was not invited to, and only found out when I had to "cover" for procedures for one of the other residents who did not feel well that day.

fine. there is a higher hill for women to climb. agreed.

i never said you suck -- but your attitude sucks. you really think you arent getting opportunities b/c you didnt go to a strip club? that is delusional.

i notice that you didnt comment on my psychoanalysis. im guessing that is b/c im pretty spot on.

 

[Lostin_space]

fine. there is a higher hill for women to climb. agreed.

i never said you suck -- but your attitude sucks. you really think you arent getting opportunities b/c you didnt go to a strip club? that is delusional.

i notice that you didnt comment on my psychoanalysis. im guessing that is b/c im pretty spot on.

Unless you are a mental health professional, I don't think that you can comment on anyone's mental health status, and certainly much less since you know nothing about me. Psychoanalysis, just FYI, is also an outdated, rarely used form of psychotherapy these days, so if any therapy was needed, it would be cognitive behavioral therapy. I will also lastly say that suggesting that one's views or issues are all somehow in my head, vs. actually critically looking at the situation is really counterproductive. It's like saying patients who are hypochondriacs can not really actually have true illness.
Suggesting that it's all in my head, or that somehow I need "psychoanalysis" because I'm somehow making all this up, really does no one good. Look at most pain departments and tell me how many women you see. Maybe 10% of women practice interventional pain. IR is maybe close to 15% or so. Again having come from Radiology I can tell you that this is no different, I just had a longer period of time since that was my originally planned specialty and I was able to grab more opportunities.

 

[oreosandsake]

lostin_space. rotate with SSdoc33, get a LOR. There are also non-acgme fellowships out there.

good luck.

 

[SSdoc33]

Unless you are a mental health professional, I don't think that you can comment on anyone's mental health status, and certainly much less since you know nothing about me. Psychoanalysis, just FYI, is also an outdated, rarely used form of psychotherapy these days, so if any therapy was needed, it would be cognitive behavioral therapy. I will also lastly say that suggesting that one's views or issues are all somehow in my head, vs. actually critically looking at the situation is really counterproductive. It's like saying patients who are hypochondriacs can not really actually have true illness.
Suggesting that it's all in my head, or that somehow I need "psychoanalysis" because I'm somehow making all this up, really does no one good. Look at most pain departments and tell me how many women you see. Maybe 10% of women practice interventional pain. IR is maybe close to 15% or so. Again having come from Radiology I can tell you that this is no different, I just had a longer period of time since that was my originally planned specialty and I was able to grab more opportunities.

i shouldnt comment in your mental health, because i only know what you post here. i dont know you. but...... I'm right. it is not "all" in your head, but you and your attitude is what is holding you back. its a shame you cant see that. you dont have the capability to see it. exactly like my sister-in-law. or my brother. or basically any other emotionally unhealthy person that i know. gotta blame something else. cant take responsibility

 

[Lostin_space]

lostin_space. rotate with SSdoc33, get a LOR. There are also non-acgme fellowships out there.

good luck.

I have LORs from a prior pain rotation. Thank you. I also have a non-acgme spot secured, I was just hoping for an accredited one. I don't want to work to the bone for another year knowing that I won't get paid as much as others for the same work, and/or will have billing issues. I guess my credentials are good enough for non-accredited programs, but no one gives me the time of day otherwise.

 

[Lostin_space]

i shouldnt comment in your mental health, because i only know what you post here. i dont know you. but...... I'm right. it is not "all" in your head, but you and your attitude is what is holding you back. its a shame you cant see that. you dont have the capability to see it. exactly like my sister-in-law. or my brother. or basically any other emotionally unhealthy person that i know. gotta blame something else. cant take responsibility

What responsibility would you like me to take? I'm listening.
Let's see - I speak multiple languages, did amazing in undergrad, med school, grad school. Have prior research, have done well in residency, despite countless health and other issues. What am I taking responsibility for?

 

[SSdoc33]

What responsibility would you like me to take? I'm listening.
Let's see - I speak multiple languages, did amazing in undergrad, med school, grad school. Have prior research, have done well in residency, despite countless health and other issues. What am I taking responsibility for?

your attitude.

we live in a social world. you have to be able to get along with people. a program director would run in the other direction if this is your overall attitude.

i am guessing you have a difficult time connecting with people. making and keeping friends. making and keeping a significant other. i would also guess that you have difficult relationships with your family members.

you cant keep pushing responsibility off on others or the system, or your gender if you expect to get where you would like to in life.

 

[Lostin_space]

You still have provided 0 answers to the questions posed.

When I contact my attendings and none of them provide any assistance,t hat's a problem. When I'm not included in conversations because I'm not a dude, that's a problem. Clearly I have come quite far in life, so for you to try to put me down seems odd. I have been married to a successful man for almost a decade, have an extremely close relationship with my family, have a close knight church and group of friends.

I still am not hearing what it is that's so terrible about what Im doing. I'm not sure what can't keep pushing responsibility off on others or the system means. I have done very well in life because I've worked my butt off.
Not sure what you are talking about.

your attitude.

we live in a social world. you have to be able to get along with people. a program director would run in the other direction if this is your overall attitude.

i am guessing you have a difficult time connecting with people. making and keeping friends. making and keeping a significant other. i would also guess that you have difficult relationships with your family members.

you cant keep pushing responsibility off on others or the system, or your gender if you expect to get where you would like to in life.

 

[Gauss]

You have a very high level of entitlement and have likely set unrealistic expectations. These are not unique to you as they are features that I'm seeing more often in my fellows year after year. SSdoc is giving excellent advice here, you can and should persist with them, but if they do not engage then you should move on. We are all busy and our own issues may take precedent, not yours. Sometimes people just don't get along. And you definitely need to drop the gender chip you have on your shoulder. That will not benefit you in any way

 

[Lostin_space]

You have a very high level of entitlement and have likely set unrealistic expectations. These are not unique to you as they are features that I'm seeing more often in my fellows year after year. SSdoc is giving excellent advice here, you can and should persist with them, but if they do not engage then you should move on. We are all busy and our own issues may take precedent, not yours. Sometimes people just don't get along. And you definitely need to drop the gender chip you have on your shoulder. That will not benefit you in any way

What unrealistic expectations?
I can and should persist with what? I can't force people to help me like they help others.

 

[lobelsteve]

your attitude.

we live in a social world. you have to be able to get along with people. a program director would run in the other direction if this is your overall attitude.

i am guessing you have a difficult time connecting with people. making and keeping friends. making and keeping a significant other. i would also guess that you have difficult relationships with your family members.

you cant keep pushing responsibility off on others or the system, or your gender if you expect to get where you would like to in life.

I smell a budding romance....get a room you two. AAPMR in 2 weeks, tequila on me.

 

[deleted480308]

OP, is this thread indicative of how you respond to firm criticism in real life?

 

[Lostin_space]

I smell a budding romance....get a room you two. AAPMR in 2 weeks, tequila on me.

It's pretty simple - I need help, have extensively sought it out, and have gotten nothing. Sure, no one owes me anything, but most other people get help. Simple enough. I don't drink tequila and have no time off for AAPMR and already taken.

 

[AndyDufrane]

I think I am officially giving up on my dream of pursuing a pain fellowship. I don't know if it's because I'm a gal, because I'm small, or what but it doesn't seem I'm getting any of what I pictured to pursue a fellowship. I started a new pain rotation, I was all excited, even started pre-reading, was all stocked - there was a change of atendings so I introduce myself to the attending, tell him who I am, bla bla, ask him what he would like me to do, etc. and he kind of just stares at me like I'm crazy and says - umm bring the patient for consents? That's awsome. I was allowed to do no procedures, the fellow who was also there also got to do no procedures, and I was ignored most of the day.
None of the people I've contacted in search of research have either replied, or I have been told that they don't have anything going on right now, even people who are notorious for being research buffs.
So frustrating and demoralizing.

I guess it's not in the cards for me. I guess I just don't get why or what I could have done differently to create a different situation for myself.

when thoughts of giving up occur, remember the wise old words of the legendary late great college Bball coach Jimmy V " Never give up, never ever give up..."

 

[SSdoc33]

lost, i am not trying to be offensive, and my critique was meant to be instructive.

it doesnt matter what other people "get". donald trump has 5 billion dollars. how does that help me?

if you truly feel that your gender is preventing advancement/opportunities, then take it up with HR. i find it hard to believe that this is the case, but if you feel this way, then you should have been documenting and filing complaints already.

if you choose this path, you will be validating your victimhood and only digging a deeper hole.

my advice, and im guessing the advice of most on this board: work hard, be pleasant, be a good doctor. your rewards will come with hard work.

 

[Lostin_space]

lost, i am not trying to be offensive, and my critique was meant to be instructive.

it doesnt matter what other people "get". donald trump has 5 billion dollars. how does that help me?

if you truly feel that your gender is preventing advancement/opportunities, then take it up with HR. i find it hard to believe that this is the case, but if you feel this way, then you should have been documenting and filing complaints already.

if you choose this path, you will be validating your victimhood and only digging a deeper hole.

my advice, and im guessing the advice of most on this board: work hard, be pleasant, be a good doctor. your rewards will come with hard work.

Look, I can't speak for what your experiences may have been but I speak for what my experiences are. This is not the first time I have been in a male dominated specialty, and the experiences I had before are the same as the ones I'm having now. Sure, I can complain about a lot of things, and go to HR with a lot of things, but I don't think that would help me much. And certain things while known are not probe-able. So if don't get the same opportunity because I'm not a "bro" or don't hang out with the guys, etc. it's not necessarily against the law. Just like I hang out more with my female colleagues than my male ones, not because I don't like the male residents, but because I have more common ground with the gals and can do things we have more in common with.
I think we can both agree that there is a reason why procedural specialties are mostly male dominated. There's no disputing that.
Again, it's not like you are providing me with additional recommendations or anything you are just attacking me.
I have posted everything I've done to try to get into one final path after all this hard work - to get into a pain fellowship that's accredited. That has not been an easy task for me, and I have done everything that everyone else has done.
We found out recently that 2 of the guys in our program matched into pain, both of the gals who applied did not. Knowing all 4 of these people, I can tell you that the women had higher scores, more research, more procedures, etc. One of them is kind on the more introverted side, both dudes are typical bros - outgoing, etc. Good for them.
I don't know what else other than working hard, being diligent, asking and searching out opportunities I can do. I have never said give me something for nothing because I'm a gal. I have said hey here I am working my butt off, being diligent, being the best doc I can be.
I'm interested in this - do you have any opportunities in x or y that I can help with? I'm happy to work hard! I got zip.
It sucks.
Don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Ragnar8]

I skipped a good bit of this thread because it got old reading the same thing over and over. I'm a dude, but my experience within the pain world has been totally different. We have multiple female pain attendings at my institution. The females here that have matched accredited pain over the past 2-3 years have all matched to their number one choices. None of those ladies ever said one thing about feeling discriminated against. And had they been, they would have said something/vented to the rest of us. Previous degrees, scores, research, etc land you fellowship interviews. Those things along with your personality and how you interact with the people on your interviews land you a position. Based on what I have seen and experienced, I don't think there is a gender bias within the pain world. But then again, I'm not interested in pain and can only go on what I've experienced through my pain rotations and what those who are interested in pain/have matched in pain fellowships have said. If you really want to do pain, then you apply for pain fellowships. Go on your interviews and be a normal/personable individual. Your past accomplishments (as you have explained them previously) will speak for themselves. There is no need to give up. Apply and let the chips fall where they may.


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