Going into medicine as non-trad and mother- selfish or reasonable?

[MrsSheperd]

Hello fellow non-trads!

I have seen some older threads on this topic but I guess I just need to get this off of my chest and hopefully get some input from you all who may be dealing with a similar dilemma situation.

So, a while back I have made a decision to become a doctor. I'm in my mid-thirties, we have two kids (5 & 10) and my husband is in the military. Our kids basically spend all day in school. I'm almost done with my pre-requisites and am currently putting my school list together, drafting my PS etc.... But once in a while I'm dealing with second thoughts:

I keep reading here on SDN that parents miss out on all of the school/sports activities of their children and basically don't have a family life anymore. I KNOW that I want to go into medicine. I have zero doubts that this is what I want. However, I also believe that as parents, we owe it to our children to be there for them. That's our job!

So my question to the non-trads here who have done this: is it really that bad? I know that first and second year are the toughest as far as studying goes. Does is get better after that? I also read a lot of posts that say that your career is what you make it after medical school...I'm planning on going into a more family friendly specialty after I graduate.

I do want to be a doctor, but I also want to be a big part of my children's life. All this time I'm thinking that whether I'm working a full-time job or going to medical school- both are full time commitments. With the exception that I will have to go back to my desk every night once they're in bed.

And another important aspect: are you guys ever concerned about the student loan debt? I think that is one point where age actually does matter. Graduating medical school at 40 and then having to pay off 200k+ in student loans...it's a little terrifying.

Am I being delusional or just freaking out? lol Can somebody offer some insight, please?

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[clausewitz2]

Hello fellow non-trads!

I have seen some older threads on this topic but I guess I just need to get this off of my chest and hopefully get some input from you all who may be dealing with a similar dilemma situation.

So, a while back I have made a decision to become a doctor. I'm in my mid-thirties, we have two kids (5 & 10) and my husband is in the military. Our kids basically spend all day in school. I'm almost done with my pre-requisites and am currently putting my school list together, drafting my PS etc.... But once in a while I'm dealing with second thoughts:

I keep reading here on SDN that parents miss out on all of the school/sports activities of their children and basically don't have a family life anymore. I KNOW that I want to go into medicine. I have zero doubts that this is what I want. However, I also believe that as parents, we owe it to our children to be there for them. That's our job!

So my question to the non-trads here who have done this: is it really that bad? I know that first and second year are the toughest as far as studying goes. Does is get better after that? I also read a lot of posts that say that your career is what you make it after medical school...I'm planning on going into a more family friendly specialty after I graduate.

I do want to be a doctor, but I also want to be a big part of my children's life. All this time I'm thinking that whether I'm working a full-time job or going to medical school- both are full time commitments. With the exception that I will have to go back to my desk every night once they're in bed.

And another important aspect: are you guys ever concerned about the student loan debt? I think that is one point where age actually does matter. Graduating medical school at 40 and then having to pay off 200k+ in student loans...it's a little terrifying.

Am I being delusional or just freaking out? lol Can somebody offer some insight, please?

So first and second year involve more studying, but if you are efficient and flexible it is very possible to fit it in around other activities. If your school does not have much in the way of mandatory attendance, you are golden. Most of my second year was indistinguishable from doing my degree online.

Where you may run into problems is third year. It is immensely more enjoyable for many people but muuuuch less flexible in terms of hours. You will simply not be able to be home every night or always there in the morning before the kids go to school. If your child has a game on a Saturday, and that is the day you have been assigned to do a sixteen hour surgical shift, too bad. Week of nights on a slow service where you don't have anything to do and you have nothing to take your mind off what you are missing at home? Too bad, sit on your hands.

This is good because it is a preview of at least three more years of your life (residency), except for the not being busy part.

Basically, if spending a year with wildly varying and totally inflexible hours that frequently don't line up with the rest of the world is going to cause problems, don't go down this path.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think one of the biggest disservices we do for young women in this country is telling them that they can have it all. The truth is that no one can be super-everything. If you are going to be a FT parent, then you are not going to be as successful in your career as someone who isn't dividing their time between job and family. And if you're going to be a super career-woman, then you aren't going to be there for your kids the way you could be if you were a SAHM. There will be conflicts, and you will have to choose how to apportion your time.

You, your husband, and your kids should really sit down and talk together about what you going to medical school will mean for the entire family. Because yes, all four of you will have to make sacrifices for the next decade while you go through your training. Some portions of that time will be more flexible and easier on your family life than others, but none of medical training is truly "family friendly." That does not mean that people with families cannot go to medical school or be physicians. But it does mean that yes, sometimes you will miss important family events, and you (and they) need to understand that, expect that, and be ok with that.

FWIW, the worst time during medical training is actually intern year in terms of the lack of flexibility, number of work hours, and interference with one's personal life. First and second years of med school tend to be among the *easiest* times to balance family and training, since many schools do not require FT attendance during those times.

 

[deleted480308]

This will cost your kids a lot....weigh the decision carefully

 

[MrsSheperd]

Thank you for your honest answers. I really appreciate it.. and I totally agree! The reality is that women can't have it all. I do love spending time with my family, especially because we already spent so much time apart from each other (husband is active duty) and I always feel like I'm the one that has to keep it all together. Entering medicine as a career field is not going to make it easier so yes...it will be tough on all of us. My husband says he would support me no matter what, so I will have to make a hard decision here..oh my

 

[MrsSheperd]

So first and second year involve more studying, but if you are efficient and flexible it is very possible to fit it in around other activities. If your school does not have much in the way of mandatory attendance, you are golden. Most of my second year was indistinguishable from doing my degree online.

Where you may run into problems is third year. It is immensely more enjoyable for many people but muuuuch less flexible in terms of hours. You will simply not be able to be home every night or always there in the morning before the kids go to school. If your child has a game on a Saturday, and that is the day you have been assigned to do a sixteen hour surgical shift, too bad. Week of nights on a slow service where you don't have anything to do and you have nothing to take your mind off what you are missing at home? Too bad, sit on your hands.

This is good because it is a preview of at least three more years of your life (residency), except for the not being busy part.

Basically, if spending a year with wildly varying and totally inflexible hours that frequently don't line up with the rest of the world is going to cause problems, don't go down this path.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. We don't have any family around, so if my husband has to leave for a few months or weeks, I would have no idea how to handle a crazy schedule with the kids. And hiring a nanny is simply not affordable. My mother in law would have to move in with us...and I would be slowly dying inside LOL

 

[esob]

Yeah, by the time I matriculate 2 of my 3 will be graduated. One however has a pretty severe case of Asperger's, and he may end up needing to live in a home for adults with autism (we've looked into some already). I had to take the cost of his care, and the care of my 1 year old into consideration when deciding to pursue medicine. If I wasn't able to afford care for both of them I know there is no way I could realistically follow this path. It also means living like a pauper now instead of buying things that I could otherwise easily afford if I wasn't planning on spending 4+ years without income (I'm assuming I will have to stop working all together once I hit my upper div undergrad classes if I want to maintain my GPA, so it's likely 6 years without any income). The financial burden of kids is extreme to say the least. When I see traditionals QQ about 200K for med school I chuckle and think to myself how much I've paid for 3 kids over the last 17 years

 

[MrsSheperd]

Yeah, by the time I matriculate 2 of my 3 will be graduated. One however has a pretty severe case of Asperger's, and he may end up needing to live in a home for adults with autism (we've looked into some already). I had to take the cost of his care, and the care of my 1 year old into consideration when deciding to pursue medicine. If I wasn't able to afford care for both of them I know there is no way I could realistically follow this path. It also means living like a pauper now instead of buying things that I could otherwise easily afford if I wasn't planning on spending 4+ years without income (I'm assuming I will have to stop working all together once I hit my upper div undergrad classes if I want to maintain my GPA, so it's likely 6 years without any income). The financial burden of kids is extreme to say the least. When I see traditionals QQ about 200K for med school I chuckle and think to myself how much I've paid for 3 kids over the last 17 years

I hear you! At least your kids a older and don't depend AS much on you. So that's a good thing. Are you concerned about student loan debts after graduation? I mean, we will be a few years behind as far as repayment goes. That's something that worries me as well. By the time I graduate, others already payed back what they owed...

 

[Law2Doc]

First and second year of med school tend to be the EASY years in terms of balance, especially if you are at a school where you can stream AVIs and are allowed to skip lectures when you need to. Once you get to third year rotations, and beyond, and may be working overnights and weekends and needing to be there at 5 am, is when you simply don't get the same kind of flexibility. And intern year and residency only get worse. You'll need a lot of family help and frankly won't be able to balance everything nicely. See Qs post above -- you can't do it all seamlessly, and will be making sacrifices on both fronts. You can be a parent and a doctor but might not be able to devote close to the time and effort to either obligation that you might be contemplating right now.

 

[esob]

I hear you! At least your kids a older and don't depend AS much on you. So that's a good thing. Are you concerned about student loan debts after graduation? I mean, we will be a few years behind as far as repayment goes. That's something that worries me as well. By the time I graduate, others already payed back what they owed...

Well, my youngest is 1 year old atm (I know, what was I thinking, I was almost home free, lol) but I've factored in not only full time daycare, but also weekend care as well into the budget. As far as worrying about debt, its not too much of a concern for me personally. My retirement savings at this point are significant enough that even if I ended up borrowing a full debt load in order to attend medical school, I could easily draw enough to pay my monthly loan payment, essentially yielding the same lifestyle after residency as someone with no medical school debt. I currently have zero undergrad debt so that's not an issue either. Additionally, I've got some other options such as Hazelwood if I end up going to a public medical school in TX and ofc I'm considering pursuing some areas that might lead to partial or full loan forgiveness such as rural medicine (not specifically for the loan forgiveness, but because that area interests me, though the loan forgiveness is a side benefit).

My financial situation is probably not typical of other non-trads though, but I still wouldn't be overly concerned about debt. If you borrowed ~ $200k, your monthly payments would be ~ $2500 for 10 years. Monthly net for $150k a year is around $9500 if you're married with 1 child, leaving you $7k a month to live on, which is still really good, especially if you aren't the only wage earner. Those are all ballpark numbers but even without a big nest egg, I think its quite feasible to handle the debt load if you're a non-trad unless you are coming from some lavish lifestyle and unwilling to break from it for the duration of your studies.

 

[Mad Jack]

My dad missed out on everything because he was working his ass off on the road, I was never bitter about it. It taught me the value and sacrifice of hard work. Can't see why people see school as so different from just working a hard-ass job. You'll miss out on a lot though, and having a household where two parents aren't all that present will be pretty tough. I at least had a mother that didn't work, so I had a parent that was around.

It's a tough situation, good luck.

 

[CockerelOnTop]

This may not help, but I want you to know you are not alone. There are tons of moms who successfully took this route. Mommy guilt will always be there to bite you in the bum about something whether you are a physician or a SAHM. There will be sacrifices, but there will be lessons for you and your kids along the way. Only you can make the decision that is right for your family, but know you have company on the road either route you go to commensurate.

 

[Promethean]

I think the fact that you are a woman means that a lot of people will be quicker to tell you that you just can't have it all and that you need to think hard about what you'd be doing to your kids.

If you were a guy, people would be a lot less likely to suggest that you can't be a good father and fulfill the demands of medical school and a career in medicine.

It is true that the time commitments that you would be making are greater than you can likely imagine, and that even when you are physically present at home, often your mind is going to be running through lists of mnemonics or fretting about the next exam. You will have to make sacrifices, and your family will as well.

But it isn't all sacrifices. Besides what your career will eventually mean for your family in terms of your income, you also have this opportunity to give your children an example of a woman who has a dream and goes for it. You can model behaviors and attitudes that you would want to see them emulate. They can have one more reason to look up to you. Those are benefits that will help to balance out some of the sacrifices along the way.

You do need to have a good support network, and you might have to be creative about building it. Maybe you have a relative or friend that isn't your mother-in-law who could live with you rent-free in trade for child care? With arrangements like that, having a nanny doesn't have to be as expensive as you fear. There is always a way.

Try to imagine your life, how it might be 10 years from now, if you do this. Really spend some time fleshing it out, considering what it would mean, how your kids will have grown up under the conditions that you anticipate. Then consider what 10 years from now will look like if you don't try for medicine. What will you have done with those intervening years? How will that have affected your family. What do you think you will regret more, in a decade or so, doing it... or not? Only you can answer that. Everyone else will have an opinion, but you and yours are the only ones who have to live it out.

If you do decide that the dream is too expensive, that it will take too much from the life you could have without it, that is reasonable. Just... make sure that you make the life you have worth the one you are forgoing. That is true, really, whatever you pick. Never do anything half-heartedly, because you are giving up all your chances to do something different, whenever you make a choice. So, when you make your decision, make it count.

 

[Promethean]

Here is an experiment, though.

Tell your same story in another forum, just switch the genders. Describe yourself as the father wanting to go to medical school, but afraid of losing time with your kids. See if you don't mostly get encouragement to follow your dream... along with a few people making condescending oh-how-cute remarks about a guy who actually wants to parent his children, or giving you excessive praise for that. After all, men who parent are doing something exceptional, women are simply fulfilling expectations.

I've been around the net since before the web had graphics, and I've seen a lot of that over the years. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't expect to be.

 

[lilyzoo]

Honestly, I'm afraid that if I'm not becoming a doctor myself, I will become a tiger mom who pushes her kids to go to medical school.

So, I'd better push myself and let my kids pursue what they love.

 

[Law2Doc]

...Monthly net for $150k a year is around $9500 ...

Um no, the net is going to be significantly lower than this -- you are leaving out SS, unemployment, state and local taxes or something. You can service that level of debt but what you'll have left is a LOT less than you are describing.

 

[futuremdforme]

Where would you be in terms of pre-reqs/actually starting med school? Because you're not that far from your oldest being able to be home alone.

Honestly, I'm afraid that if I'm not becoming a doctor myself, I will become a tiger mom who pushes her kids to go to medical school.

So, I'd better push myself and let my kids pursue what they love.

Do both! Be a doctor and tiger mom. (I'm a little kidding.)

I think that your husband's job is a bigger factor in this than the kids. Military complicates a lot of factors, like having the ability to choose where you want to live, and being alone when he's away. You're definitely not selfish if you do it, but you're right to consider the sacrifices it will involve before you commit too much.

 

[ejw5075]

Oh, the mommy guilt is real, isn't it? I've been there many times. I am halfway though my intern year of my obgyn residency & am sitting here after putting my 11 month old to bed and going to my 8 year olds soccer game. Have I missed things, yes, definitely but I've been there for more than I've missed. Medicine is no more time consuming than any other career I was considering so I don't feel like it was a selfish pursuit.

First and second year were the easiest in terms of balancing school and family, you mainly study on your own schedule. Third and fourth year are less flexible as clinical rotations tend to have set, long hours. Residency is by far more difficult in every way but it is also very doable. You just need support and the attitude that you'll put in 100% both at work and at home and don't bring your work home with you. Involve your family. Remind yourself, and them, this won't last forever.

I plan on doing a fellowship after the four years in a subspecialty I love that allows for a wonderful work life balance.

Yes, the debt matters. I won't go into details but I can say that's the one area I've seen people turn this pursuit into a burden for their loved ones. It's a long time before we make any real money so keep that in mind.

 

[MrsSheperd]

First of all, thank you all so much for so many thoughtful responses. I'm glad to see on here that my fears and worries are justified. (Although I was secretly hoping most of you would say that it's not as hard as it seems ) I think if my spouse had a career which allowed him to be with the kids on a more reliable schedule this decision would be so much easier. At least I would know that one of us could always be there for soccer games, rehearsals or teacher conferences. I'm not a super-mom and I make mistakes like every other parent. But something that truly worries me is that there may be times where both, my husband and I can't be there for any school events. This sounds so petty, like I was worrying about peanuts but believe it or not- I do remember the times when I was picked up as the last kid at school or rehearsals where my parents were the only ones who were not there. It hurts and I don't know if I can handle this kind of "mommy guilt". I'm afraid that my kids will remember me as the mom that never was there, and when she was, she was studying all the time and was always super stressed. But like you all said- you can't have everything. We will have to make sacrifices and my spouse and I will have to have a sit down and consider all the options before we go down this path..because once I start, there will be no turning back!

As far as the debt goes..I'm fine with whatever is left after taxes as long as I can cover the loan payments. Money was never a factor when I made my decision to go into medicine. I just think it sounds horrifying to know that you owe over 250k..I don't know how well I'll be sleeping at night lol

@Mr. Hat I'm sorry that your marriage did not work out. I hope you made another friend in return Sometimes break ups (even for married couples) are not as bad as they seem at first.

 

[MrsSheperd]

Oh, the mommy guilt is real, isn't it? I've been there many times. I am halfway though my intern year of my obgyn residency & am sitting here after putting my 11 month old to bed and going to my 8 year olds soccer game. Have I missed things, yes, definitely but I've been there for more than I've missed. Medicine is no more time consuming than any other career I was considering so I don't feel like it was a selfish pursuit.

First and second year were the easiest in terms of balancing school and family, you mainly study on your own schedule. Third and fourth year are less flexible as clinical rotations tend to have set, long hours. Residency is by far more difficult in every way but it is also very doable. You just need support and the attitude that you'll put in 100% both at work and at home and don't bring your work home with you. Involve your family. Remind yourself, and them, this won't last forever.

I plan on doing a fellowship after the four years in a subspecialty I love that allows for a wonderful work life balance.

Yes, the debt matters. I won't go into details but I can say that's the one area I've seen people turn this pursuit into a burden for their loved ones. It's a long time before we make any real money so keep that in mind.

Were you able to find a residency that let you balance work and family life? The way you described your situation it doesn't sound all that bad.

 

[Promethean]

Medical school doesn't have to be unaffordable. That was one of my challenges for going. I have no family support... heck, I'm still partially supporting other people by working on the side while I'm going to school. So, I wasted a few years when I could have been going telling myself that there was no way that I could afford it.

I found a DO school that has tuition and fees ~$35k/yr, and over all COA at $58k. I'm in a 3 year program dedicated to producing primary care providers, so that saves me a full year of tuition, plus gets me back into the full time work force a year sooner. And, since primary care is what I really, truly want to do, there are plenty of scholarships vs. loan repayment options out there to help contain and rapidly diminish that debt. Not to mention the potential to work like a fiend via locums and other contract work. I believe that if I set myself to it, I can be debt free (including my modest house) within 1-3 years post residency.

No debt will make it a lot easier to decide when and how and under what conditions I want to practice from that point forward.

So, I'm looking at another 2.5 years of medical school, 3 years of residency (during which time I expect to earn ~50k/yr), and then maybe as much as 3 years of working my tush off and living very frugally, so that I can live the rest of my career (20-25 years) completely on my own terms.

That is just my plan. You have your own aspirations and options. But again I say, if you want it, there is a way. (Especially if you are at all drawn to primary care!)

 

[MrsSheperd]

Medical school doesn't have to be unaffordable. That was one of my challenges for going. I have no family support... heck, I'm still partially supporting other people by working on the side while I'm going to school. So, I wasted a few years when I could have been going telling myself that there was no way that I could afford it.

I found a DO school that has tuition and fees ~$35k/yr, and over all COA at $58k. I'm in a 3 year program dedicated to producing primary care providers, so that saves me a full year of tuition, plus gets me back into the full time work force a year sooner. And, since primary care is what I really, truly want to do, there are plenty of scholarships vs. loan repayment options out there to help contain and rapidly diminish that debt. Not to mention the potential to work like a fiend via locums and other contract work. I believe that if I set myself to it, I can be debt free (including my modest house) within 1-3 years post residency.

No debt will make it a lot easier to decide when and how and under what conditions I want to practice from that point forward.

So, I'm looking at another 2.5 years of medical school, 3 years of residency (during which time I expect to earn ~50k/yr), and then maybe as much as 3 years of working my tush off and living very frugally, so that I can live the rest of my career (20-25 years) completely on my own terms.

That is just my plan. You have your own aspirations and options. But again I say, if you want it, there is a way. (Especially if you are at all drawn to primary care!)

That's a great plan! I also want to go into primary care, so I would totally be up for that route as well. I also think that if you're disciplined, you can get rid of debt very quickly. To me, this whole educational debt system is still very new and I'm trying to get used to the fact that it's "normal" in the U.S. Where I come from, (Europe) we don't even use credit cards, except for travel of course. It's more of a "you don't spend money that you don't have" type of culture..unless you buy a house or a car. But that's about it.

 

[TheTao]

IMHO, it's ALL about your support system and your level of comfort with possible missing important milestones.

With that in mind, I decided to wait for another serious pursuit of med school until after my kid entered college but if I had had a solid support system, I probably wouldn't have waited.

 

[QofQuimica]

Here is an experiment, though.

Tell your same story in another forum, just switch the genders. Describe yourself as the father wanting to go to medical school, but afraid of losing time with your kids. See if you don't mostly get encouragement to follow your dream... along with a few people making condescending oh-how-cute remarks about a guy who actually wants to parent his children, or giving you excessive praise for that. After all, men who parent are doing something exceptional, women are simply fulfilling expectations.

I've been around the net since before the web had graphics, and I've seen a lot of that over the years. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't expect to be.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm a woman myself, and I've made my life decisions (and lived with them) just like we all have. I did not go to medical school straight out of college in large part because it would have destroyed my marriage. Had we stayed together, I would not have ever gone to medical school. It simply would not have been possible. In the end, even my being in grad school added a lot of stress and strain, and we had never considered adding kids into the mix.

You are correct that the burden of childcare tends to fall more heavily upon women. As does the burden of the guilt of trying to do two full-time "jobs" in one aliquot of lifetime. But I for one would give the same advice to a guy who was worried about missing out on spending time with his family that I gave to the OP. That there are fewer of them out there is no credit to the male gender. But yes, there are some of them out there. One of my personal heroes along those lines is Mr. Money Mustache, who "retired" together with his wife at age 30 so they could both stay home with their son, who is now age 11. I highly recommend his blog to anyone who is interested in figuring out how to NOT have your job interfere with the other important parts of your life. It certainly helps if you're savvy enough to save enough money to become a millionaire and retire before having kids, like he and his wife did.

Regardless of traditional gender norms, OP and other parents/spouses need to understand that no, balancing a family with medical training will not be easy. Medical training is geared toward young, single people with no family responsibilities who can single-mindedly pursue their training. In some cases, it rips families apart altogether, an outcome that has been on my mind again recently, as I just found out earlier this week that yet another colleague of mine is getting divorced. Again, this is not to say that combining med school with a family can't be done, or that the OP in particular shouldn't do it. But anyone considering this training path should understand the difficulties, and should do the maximum due diligence possible. That includes having a realistic discussion and setting expectations about the sacrifices that will be required of the whole family.

 

[ejw5075]

Were you able to find a residency that let you balance work and family life? The way you described your situation it doesn't sound all that bad.

Yes, don't get me wrong, I work a LOT and miss things I wish I could be there for but no more than my mom-friends who are successful in their fields. That being said, I am a better mom now than I've ever been and I stayed home at one point. When I'm home my kids and husband get 100% of my attention and they know how important they are to me. I'm also very successful at work. The posters saying you can't "have it all" are so very wrong. Maybe I've just learned how to be extremely efficient, maybe most things just come easily for me, maybe I'll wake up tomorrow and start to struggle with balance- who knows. All I can tell you is its worked extremely well this far and no one has been scarred along the way.

Edit to add: my program is very "life" friendly. Most of us aren't parents but we have night float which helps, we also have 6 per class so I either work both days in a weekend or have the entire weekend off- typically off at least 2 full weekends a month. Due to night float, I am usually home by 6:30pm unless I'm stuck in the OR. I leave early in the mornings but everyone's asleep whether I leave at 5 or 7 so it doesn't make too much difference.

 

[Promethean]

That's a great plan! I also want to go into primary care, so I would totally be up for that route as well. I also think that if you're disciplined, you can get rid of debt very quickly. To me, this whole educational debt system is still very new and I'm trying to get used to the fact that it's "normal" in the U.S. Where I come from, (Europe) we don't even use credit cards, except for travel of course. It's more of a "you don't spend money that you don't have" type of culture..unless you buy a house or a car. But that's about it.

Well, if you are interested in knowing more about a three year primary care focused program, let me tell you, at length, about LECOM. I don't know what geographic area you are hoping to stay near, but if Erie would be a possibility for you, let me tell you that this is a school run by folks with a strong affinity for the military. And I know that several of my classmates have kids and seem to be able to manage a reasonable balance. If you'd like to know more, you are always welcome to PM me, and if you'd like to speak with someone here with kids, I can probably hook you up with a couple of folks who could answer questions specific to raising a family in med school in Erie.

 

[DrMikeP]

Here is an experiment, though.

Tell your same story in another forum, just switch the genders. Describe yourself as the father wanting to go to medical school, but afraid of losing time with your kids. See if you don't mostly get encouragement to follow your dream... along with a few people making condescending oh-how-cute remarks about a guy who actually wants to parent his children, or giving you excessive praise for that. After all, men who parent are doing something exceptional, women are simply fulfilling expectations.

I've been around the net since before the web had graphics, and I've seen a lot of that over the years. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I don't expect to be.

As a single male parent I was repeatedly told med school wasn't an option and my son's mother sure wasn't doing anything to provide any kind of support. States rarely go after deadbeat moms. So med school wasn't an option when my son was younger, because as a parent I was responsible for doing the best for my child and my choice would have been no different male or female. The big difference, as a male I had zip for support services because I was a single father and didn't "qualify" for free daycare, educational retraining grants, and many other things I tried to apply for. I was blatantly told I didn't because I was a "male" and those programs were for females/single mothers only (good luck finding a lawyer to take that on). I was in night classes with women who had free on campus childcare but my son wasn't eligible, so I had to find/pay for a sitter. I was also told to not be a loser and work to support my son, which I did and have no regrets. So yes you'll absolutely find biases on both sides of the fence depending on how and where you look.

OP: I spent 2 yrs with Americorp and did the doctorate clinical psychology route while working when my son was younger instead of going to med school and made a successful med psych career. Now that my son is grown and own his own I am going back to med school. At some point we have to do what is best for our children so you'll have to decide if right now it is best or not with your husband in the military. No matter what you do it will be a huge sacrifice, just you will have to weigh if it is personally worth it to you and your family or not (even doing the psych route I missed out on a lot). The biggest challenge will be when your husband is deployed and you have a sick kid, unless you are fortunate enough to have other family support. I'd say the same thing if the roles were reversed, have you and your husband looked at him maybe taking a job that would allow greater flexibility in his schedule? You'll still miss out often, but your kids would at least have someone if they need. Med school is for better or worse a huge time vacuum that will take away from your family.

Best of Luck!

 

[MrsSheperd]

As a single male parent I was repeatedly told med school wasn't an option and my son's mother sure wasn't doing anything to provide any kind of support. States rarely go after deadbeat moms. So med school wasn't an option when my son was younger, because as a parent I was responsible for doing the best for my child and my choice would have been no different male or female. The big difference, as a male I had zip for support services because I was a single father and didn't "qualify" for free daycare, educational retraining grants, and many other things I tried to apply for. I was blatantly told I didn't because I was a "male" and those programs were for females/single mothers only (good luck finding a lawyer to take that on). I was in night classes with women who had free on campus childcare but my son wasn't eligible, so I had to find/pay for a sitter. I was also told to not be a loser and work to support my son, which I did and have no regrets. So yes you'll absolutely find biases on both sides of the fence depending on how and where you look.

OP: I spent 2 yrs with Americorp and did the doctorate clinical psychology route while working when my son was younger instead of going to med school and made a successful med psych career. Now that my son is grown and own his own I am going back to med school. At some point we have to do what is best for our children so you'll have to decide if right now it is best or not with your husband in the military. No matter what you do it will be a huge sacrifice, just you will have to weigh if it is personally worth it to you and your family or not (even doing the psych route I missed out on a lot). The biggest challenge will be when your husband is deployed and you have a sick kid, unless you are fortunate enough to have other family support. I'd say the same thing if the roles were reversed, have you and your husband looked at him maybe taking a job that would allow greater flexibility in his schedule? You'll still miss out often, but your kids would at least have someone if they need. Med school is for better or worse a huge time vacuum that will take away from your family.

Best of Luck!

@DrMikeP I'm sorry to hear about what you had to go through. A single parent is a single parent!

I gree with you on the part that we have to do what's best for our family, especially our children. Yes, I would miss out if I didn't go to school but at the same time, my children have only one childhood and they deserve parents who are there for them, participate in afternoon activities and tuck them in at night. And from what I've read so far, this won't be so easy if I choose this path. ght now, I'm really leaning towards putting it off for a while...they don't have to be adults but at least a little bit older. Maybe my husband would enjoy some parental leave after retirement I'm working on talking him into doing that..it would be well deserved after 20 years of 0530 pt, long work nights and four deployments ugh...

 

[MrsSheperd]

Well, if you are interested in knowing more about a three year primary care focused program, let me tell you, at length, about LECOM. I don't know what geographic area you are hoping to stay near, but if Erie would be a possibility for you, let me tell you that this is a school run by folks with a strong affinity for the military. And I know that several of my classmates have kids and seem to be able to manage a reasonable balance. If you'd like to know more, you are always welcome to PM me, and if you'd like to speak with someone here with kids, I can probably hook you up with a couple of folks who could answer questions specific to raising a family in med school in Erie.

@Promethean I would love to hear more about that program! Thank you for that offer..I tried to PM you but it somehow doesn't work?? Or maybe I'm just not smart enough lol

 

[DrMikeP]

@DrMikeP I'm sorry to hear about what you had to go through. A single parent is a single parent!

I gree with you on the part that we have to do what's best for our family, especially our children. Yes, I would miss out if I didn't go to school but at the same time, my children have only one childhood and they deserve parents who are there for them, participate in afternoon activities and tuck them in at night. And from what I've read so far, this won't be so easy if I choose this path. ght now, I'm really leaning towards putting it off for a while...they don't have to be adults but at least a little bit older. Maybe my husband would enjoy some parental leave after retirement I'm working on talking him into doing that..it would be well deserved after 20 years of 0530 pt, long work nights and four deployments ugh...

We all have our battles in life, when we fight them successfully they make us stronger.

If you put it off until your kids are a bit older you can do it later if you are determined enough, so don't let others convince you differently. But either way it's a huge decision and I am glad you are weighing it carefully and thoughtfully, because there are significant costs either way.

Whatever your (and your family's decisions) all the best!!!!

 

[MrsSheperd]

Yes, don't get me wrong, I work a LOT and miss things I wish I could be there for but no more than my mom-friends who are successful in their fields. That being said, I am a better mom now than I've ever been and I stayed home at one point. When I'm home my kids and husband get 100% of my attention and they know how important they are to me. I'm also very successful at work. The posters saying you can't "have it all" are so very wrong. Maybe I've just learned how to be extremely efficient, maybe most things just come easily for me, maybe I'll wake up tomorrow and start to struggle with balance- who knows. All I can tell you is its worked extremely well this far and no one has been scarred along the way.

Edit to add: my program is very "life" friendly. Most of us aren't parents but we have night float which helps, we also have 6 per class so I either work both days in a weekend or have the entire weekend off- typically off at least 2 full weekends a month. Due to night float, I am usually home by 6:30pm unless I'm stuck in the OR. I leave early in the mornings but everyone's asleep whether I leave at 5 or 7 so it doesn't make too much difference.

I'm glad that everything has worked out so well for you. I can imagine that it is rough at times, but at the same time..when it comes to raising children I always say that quality is more important than the quantity of time you spend with your children. That being said, I'm sure you make that precious time you all have together worth it and that's what matters! They wouldn't benefit any more from a stay at home mom that lays around on the couch either

I guess I'm just worried that the timing is not on my side right now..it sure would be different if my husband had a less stressful civilian job

 

[esob]

Um no, the net is going to be significantly lower than this -- you are leaving out SS, unemployment, state and local taxes or something. You can service that level of debt but what you'll have left is a LOT less than you are describing.

http://puu.sh/mZi2X/4e11cb87d3.png

That's using this online tool: http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resour...l-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx

Based on married filing status with 3 dependents, no state taxes (because why would you live in a state with state taxes, lol)

I guess if you want to crunch the numbers directly, you can take the 150k salary and first apply the federal tax:

2015 federal rates for married filing jointly for 150k = $10,312.50 plus 25% of the amount over $74,900. So 25% x $75,100 = $18,775
Total federal income tax = $10,312.50 + $18,775 = $29,087.50

Next, assuming you are an employee, your FICA rate (social security + medicare) = 7.65%, so 7.65% x $150,000 = $11,475

Total federal income, social security and medicare tax on $150k: 29,087.50 +$11,475 = $40,546.50.

Gross pay: $150,000 - $40,546.50 = $109,453.50

$109,453.50 divided by 12 = 9121.13


Granted, this doesn't take into account if you have local taxes, or if you live in a state with state income taxes, but it also doesn't account for any deductions (mortgage interest, student loan interest, standard and personal deductions, etc). Certainly, there are a multitude of other variables that can come into play as, such as contributions to a pre-tax IRA, etc., but I think $9k is a ballpark number at least.

 

[Law2Doc]

http://puu.sh/mZi2X/4e11cb87d3.png

That's using this online tool: http://www.adp.com/tools-and-resour...l-calculators/salary-paycheck-calculator.aspx

Based on married filing status with 3 dependents, no state taxes (because why would you live in a state with state taxes, lol)

I guess if you want to crunch the numbers directly, you can take the 150k salary and first apply the federal tax:

2015 federal rates for married filing jointly for 150k = $10,312.50 plus 25% of the amount over $74,900. So 25% x $75,100 = $18,775
Total federal income tax = $10,312.50 + $18,775 = $29,087.50

Next, assuming you are an employee, your FICA rate (social security + medicare) = 7.65%, so 7.65% x $150,000 = $11,475

Total federal income, social security and medicare tax on $150k: 29,087.50 +$11,475 = $40,546.50.

Gross pay: $150,000 - $40,546.50 = $109,453.50

$109,453.50 divided by 12 = 9121.13


Granted, this doesn't take into account if you have local taxes, or if you live in a state with state income taxes, but it also doesn't account for any deductions (mortgage interest, student loan interest, standard and personal deductions, etc). Certainly, there are a multitude of other variables that can come into play as, such as contributions to a pre-tax IRA, etc., but I think $9k is a ballpark number at least.

Online calculator you found is, frankly, not the right ballpark -- Those of us with actual monthly pay stubs (i.e. Real life) can assure you you won't have anything close to that much left over. Certainly a state without taxes helps, but that shouldn't be enough to be the kind of difference you are describing. There's some bigger component not being factored in by your calculations.

At any rate, that's a tangent-- you will be able to service a lot of debt, pay your bills, just not as painlessly as your online calculator seems to describe.

 

[esob]

Hence the reason I crunched the actual numbers, straight from the IRS. I personally earned well over 150k last year so at least from my experience, it is the ballpark, so I'm not sure what you're doing differently than me, other than we operate as a pass through S corp, which actually makes my self employment tax higher than your FICA. Again, maybe the state/local jurisdiction makes things different, but in Texas, as a pass through entity we only pay Federal and Self Employment tax (and franchise tax on anything over 1 million in annual earnings). Everyone who works for us is classed a subcontractor so we don't do any payroll taxes, so I don't know if maybe there's something in the payroll tax that makes a difference. Anyway, like you said, the debt is still manageable regardless.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hence the reason I crunched the actual numbers, straight from the IRS. I personally earned well over 150k last year so at least from my experience, it is the ballpark, so I'm not sure what you're doing differently than me, other than we operate as a pass through S corp, which actually makes my self employment tax higher than your FICA. Again, maybe the state/local jurisdiction makes things different, but in Texas, as a pass through entity we only pay Federal and Self Employment tax (and franchise tax on anything over 1 million in annual earnings). Everyone who works for us is classed a subcontractor so we don't do any payroll taxes, so I don't know if maybe there's something in the payroll tax that makes a difference. Anyway, like you said, the debt is still manageable regardless.

Your corporate structure and lack of withholding as well as no state tax are likely all differences that account for some of why you are getting the numbers you are getting, which frankly are not what most of us see. (I will assume arguendo that your numbers have been blessed by an accountant given your corporate pass through entity structure-- if not, get someone other than an online calculator to take a look). As an individual employee of a third party I assure you the numbers are substantially different, and likely will be for most of the people reading this.

In general I have found online calculator results overly optimistic because they are only as knowledgable as the programmer, who often makes inaccurate assumptions and rarely has seen such a paycheck and won't always know what he's leaving out.

Again this is totally a tangent and adds little to OPs question-- we all agree The OP will be able to service a fairly high level of educational debt on a doctors salary -- so sorry I brought it up.

 

[MrsSheperd]

Thank you guys!! Yes, I think either way- doctors seem to make a fair amount of money- after the loans are paid off lol

 

[DrMikeP]

Thank you guys!! Yes, I think either way- doctors seem to make a fair amount of money- after the loans are paid off lol

LOL... Shhhhh they'll debate what a fair amount is. ,)

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Law2Doc]

LOL... Shhhhh they'll debate what a fair amount is. ,)

LOL. I think if it's what you bargained for, it's "fair". The trick is to not get sucked into the preallo imaginary notions of driving your Ferarri to your beach house every weekend. The money is not close to what some of those youngsters like to imagine.

 

[DrMikeP]

LOL. I think if it's what you bargained for, it's "fair". The trick is to not get sucked into the preallo imaginary notions of driving your Ferarri to your beach house every weekend. The money is not close to what some of those youngsters like to imagine.

Absolutely, you are by no means going to be rich (unless you just happen to land that particular specialty and devote 10yrs to mastering it) but you will definitely have the ability to make a good living. As I tell med students alllll the time if you are getting into medicine just to get rich you are asking to be miserable.

 

[silleme]

That's a great plan! I also want to go into primary care, so I would totally be up for that route as well. I also think that if you're disciplined, you can get rid of debt very quickly. To me, this whole educational debt system is still very new and I'm trying to get used to the fact that it's "normal" in the U.S. Where I come from, (Europe) we don't even use credit cards, except for travel of course. It's more of a "you don't spend money that you don't have" type of culture..unless you buy a house or a car. But that's about it.

If your husband still has 4 years left of Active Duty, he can apply to get the Post 9/11 GI Bill transferred to you. That would enable you to use it to pay for all your schooling for 36 months, which will only leave you with about 6 months unpaid. Talk with him about that as that would ease your family's financial burden significantly.
Also, there are several schools that offer a 3 year family medicine track, so depending on your geographical limitations, you may want to look into those as well as that would also minimize debt.

 

[MrsSheperd]

If your husband still has 4 years left of Active Duty, he can apply to get the Post 9/11 GI Bill transferred to you. That would enable you to use it to pay for all your schooling for 36 months, which will only leave you with about 6 months unpaid. Talk with him about that as that would ease your family's financial burden significantly.
Also, there are several schools that offer a 3 year family medicine track, so depending on your geographical limitations, you may want to look into those as well as that would also minimize debt.

That's actually a perfect idea!!! I don't know why I haven't thought of it earlier He had offered it a couple of years ago before I got a full ride to college...I just forgot about it!! Thank you

 

[silleme]

You won't receive the monthly housing stipend, but since he's still getting BAH that won't be as big a deal. It goes into a lot more detail here: http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/post911_transfer.asp

And since you're in NC...if he can remain stable there you may want to look into the FIRST program at UNC: http://www.med.unc.edu/fammed/for-s...t-education/family-medicine-student-resources

 

[petyr_baelish]

Those paycheque calculations are off by about 50Gs. New FM docs are getting 200k to start in addition to tonnes of benefits that add value to the job, such as loan repayment options if you work there for at least 3 years, 1 month vacation, educational stipends and buy-in opportunities. Bonuses can add an additional 20% to your income easily. I think expecting 9k free and clear per month is pretty realistic for a new attending and an underestimate for anyone who has more than 5 years experience.

EDIT:

Here is a job I found in less than two minutes in Southern California near the Ontario airport. They need someone immediately so I bet there is room to negotiate even better terms.

FM outpatient 4-5 days per week.
Guaranteed 250 k base salary with proven potential to make 350k.
http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-s...um=referral&utm_campaign=Indeed&LO=Indeed.com

 

[Law2Doc]

Those paycheque calculations are off by about 50Gs. New FM docs are getting 200k to start in addition to tonnes of benefits that add value to the job, such as loan repayment options if you work there for at least 3 years, 1 month vacation, educational stipends and buy-in opportunities. Bonuses can add an additional 20% to your income easily. I think expecting 9k free and clear per month is pretty realistic for a new attending and an underestimate for anyone who has more than 5 years experience.

EDIT:

Here is a job I found in less than two minutes in Southern California near the Ontario airport. They need someone immediately so I bet there is room to negotiate even better terms.

FM outpatient 4-5 days per week.
Guaranteed 250 k base salary with proven potential to make 350k.
http://www.merritthawkins.com/job-s...um=referral&utm_campaign=Indeed&LO=Indeed.com

First, the $9000 figure mentioned by that other poster (which I disputed) presumed a $150k salary with no bonuses, so it's not really a fair argument to argue you'll get $9000 easy with a different salary. That assumes new facts.

Second, the average salary for most primary care specialties is ariund $200k but not everyone gets average. So you can't really bank on getting something higher. Being conservative in these calculations makes more sense than dreaming.

Third, a job posting doesn't mean you'll get the job or at that salary. There is plenty of "bait and switch" out there, particularly in the recruitment world, so don't ever take these numbers as gospel until you get a contract. There's a good chance if you call that ad, a recruiter will answer, say that job is already filled, but that they have another "almost as good" which ends up being substantially more hours for less $. Sadly this goes on so frequently that most of us simply ignore the listed salaries in these postings.

 

[MrsSheperd]

You won't receive the monthly housing stipend, but since he's still getting BAH that won't be as big a deal. It goes into a lot more detail here: http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/post911_transfer.asp

And since you're in NC...if he can remain stable there you may want to look into the FIRST program at UNC: http://www.med.unc.edu/fammed/for-s...t-education/family-medicine-student-resources

Thank you for that link!! I was looking for something useful online last night and wasn't really successful. Yes, we're staying here so the FIRST program at UNC sounds really like a great option.

 

[esob]

that other poster

Dang, so.... harsh... lol. But yeah, I did intentionally underestimated the salary, mostly so I didn't get a flaming for "being all about the money." On point however is still the fact that the debt load is manageable and you won't starve as a non-trad. In all likelihood, non-trad's should do at least as well because they probably have acquired basic money management skills that someone who went straight through med school didn't get a chance to hone.

 

[QofQuimica]

Dang, so.... harsh... lol. But yeah, I did intentionally underestimated the salary, mostly so I didn't get a flaming for "being all about the money." On point however is still the fact that the debt load is manageable and you won't starve as a non-trad. In all likelihood, non-trad's should do at least as well because they probably have acquired basic money management skills that someone who went straight through med school didn't get a chance to hone.

You won't starve, but you will likely be working well into your 60s. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's not as easy to save up all that money as some people might think. Speaking as someone who graduated from residency under the best of all possible financial circumstances (no school loans, a six figure head start on my retirement from 20+ years in the workforce, no mortgage, no kids of my own, living in a state w/ low COL and no state income tax, spending ~$30,000/year for personal expenses including my niece's college fund), it is still taking me about 3.5 years working FT as an attending to save up enough money to be financially independent. I would say that the older you are, the more concerned you should be about how you intend to pay it all off, simply because you have less time on average to work as an attending. Again, not to say that no one should ever go to medical school in their 30s or 40s, because everyone's cost-benefit analysis of a medical school degree is unique to the individual. But you have to be realistic about what it's going to take to pay that all off. And make sure you buy good individual disability insurance.

As for the OP, if you can really use your husband's GI bill for med school, that would be sweet. Definitely do it.

 

[blue0rchid]

I know you mentioned about dying inside if your mother-in-law moves in with you, but if you really want to do medical school, you may have to suck it up and choose this route. Just make sure boundaries are set and you both have some sort of agreements on what's to be done for the kids. Good luck.

 

[MrsSheperd]

You won't starve, but you will likely be working well into your 60s. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's not as easy to save up all that money as some people might think. Speaking as someone who graduated from residency under the best of all possible financial circumstances (no school loans, a six figure head start on my retirement from 20+ years in the workforce, no mortgage, no kids of my own, living in a state w/ low COL and no state income tax, spending ~$30,000/year for personal expenses including my niece's college fund), it is still taking me about 3.5 years working FT as an attending to save up enough money to be financially independent. I would say that the older you are, the more concerned you should be about how you intend to pay it all off, simply because you have less time on average to work as an attending. Again, not to say that no one should ever go to medical school in their 30s or 40s, because everyone's cost-benefit analysis of a medical school degree is unique to the individual. But you have to be realistic about what it's going to take to pay that all off. And make sure you buy good individual disability insurance.

As for the OP, if you can really use your husband's GI bill for med school, that would be sweet. Definitely do it.

Yes, those were my thoughts exactly!! You'll have less time to save up for a comfortable retirement. And especially if you have kids, you want to be there and support them financially with whatever career choice they make as well. So there's a lot to worry about but the GI bill will be a great help. If I went to a state school, I'd only have to pay one year worth tuition..looking at UNC, that would be "only" about 20 G, considering that I have zero previous student loans to worry about

 

[MrsSheperd]

I know you mentioned about dying inside if your mother-in-law moves in with you, but if you really want to do medical school, you may have to suck it up and choose this route. Just make sure boundaries are set and you both have some sort of agreements on what's to be done for the kids. Good luck.

LOL I know haha I will suck it up and besides, she is a great grandmother to our kids so I really can't complain.