Golden Age of Vet Med?

[kittensmeow]

I recently spoke with a vet/clinic owner who told me the golden age of vet med is over (I think he said it was back in 80s). He mostly blamed corporatization, since back in his time a young vet could buy/start a small practice and build it up into a lucrative business, but now corporations are buying all the practices and can easily outbid vets. It's great for the old-timers who can sell their practice for a few million but it blocks a lot of new vets from becoming owners.

I've also been told that vets earn much less than they did a generation or two ago....is this because most of them are making associate income and not practice owner income? I do know that many vets are offered production-based pay, maybe around 20% of gross billings, so this should translate into a pretty high salary at a busy clinic - the same practice owner I spoke with told me a recent grad he hired made over 150K last year, and another made 120K. So why do I keep hearing that the average salary is 80-90K? Are young vets choosing a lower fixed salary instead of production-based?

I'll probably be banned form the forum for suggesting this by I wonder if lower remuneration has anything to do with the proliferation of females in the profession, since a lot of women with young children might be working part-time, not owning clinics, etc., and that would bring down the average salary. Or maybe female vets aren't pushing for higher pay the way men might?

It just seems odd to me that vet med would be less lucrative now than in the past, because society currently values animals (especially pets) more than ever, so if anything, we should be in the golden age right now!

I'm Canadian, by the way, so I'd really love some insight from Canadian vets.

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[itsrocky]

I'll probably be banned form the forum for suggesting this by I wonder if lower remuneration has anything to do with the proliferation of females in the profession, since a lot of women with young children might be working part-time, not owning clinics, etc., and that would bring down the average salary. Or maybe female vets aren't pushing for higher pay the way men might?

To a degree, yes. Because there is a gap between the way men and women get paid, the pay scale does depress because that is just how our economics work. Not fair and it should change, but alas. I am an american vet—we don’t get maternity leave in the way other countries do, so that really jacks up the pay scale. I don’t have children, so I’d defer to folks on this forum that do for more specifics. There’s quite a few and I’m sure they’ll swing around.

I think the thing that has made things so much harder for vets to thrive is the cost of education. Debt to income ratios get higher with each graduating class. You can’t run too much of a successful business model when you have six figure student loans to pay. I personally know more people on pro-sal than I do fixed salary for what it is worth.

I know you wanted to hear from Canadians, and they do live around here so I’m sure they’ll show up.

 

[that redhead]

The fact that the person you spoke with was in practice in the 80s shows a bit of their bias. I think all humans are prone to seeing times past as “the good ol’ days”.

So I guess it all depends on how you define “the Golden age” - I would argue that right now, despite increasing corporate-ization, we can do more for our patients than ever before in terms of diagnostics and care. And as you point out, animals are more highly valued and generally better cared for now too. Perhaps the Golden days of practice ownership are behind us, but that doesn’t represent the profession as a whole.

I have yet to personally meet a mom-vet (myself included) who isn’t full time. Daycare is expensive! I’m sure the part-timers are out there but not so common as you might think. We have the tendency to think we have to do it all, at full speed, at all times lest we be judged for being too soft and caring too much about our families.

 

[DVMDream]

I recently spoke with a vet/clinic owner who told me the golden age of vet med is over (I think he said it was back in 80s). He mostly blamed corporatization, since back in his time a young vet could buy/start a small practice and build it up into a lucrative business, but now corporations are buying all the practices and can easily outbid vets. It's great for the old-timers who can sell their practice for a few million but it blocks a lot of new vets from becoming owners.

I mean, maybe as far as practice ownership it is harder for vets to do that now, but I know a number of vets who own practices and one of my classmates fairly recently opened up her own practice. So, yeah, it might be a bit more difficult to own or buy a current practice as a newer vet now, but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

I've also been told that vets earn much less than they did a generation or two ago....is this because most of them are making associate income and not practice owner income? I do know that many vets are offered production-based pay, maybe around 20% of gross billings, so this should translate into a pretty high salary at a busy clinic - the same practice owner I spoke with told me a recent grad he hired made over 150K last year, and another made 120K. So why do I keep hearing that the average salary is 80-90K? Are young vets choosing a lower fixed salary instead of production-based?

I'd be asking where he is getting this information from that vets are earning less now. I know vets that graduated 20 years ago that were barely making $40k in small animal GP, that is an unheard of salary now. Most associates easily make double that, if not more.

You keep hearing the average salary is $80-90k because that is the average. An average is just that a combination of all salaries to find the "middle ground", of course there are those that make more and those that make less, hence the entire point of an average.

I'd also question that $150k--- was that in straight salary, production based, as an owner is he including in her benefits to that value? Benefits such as paid time off, health insurance costs, CE allowances, license fees, DEA license, etc.... those things add up and are all part of the bigger "package" and he might be forking out $150k for her as an employee but she is actually only going home with a $100k actual salary as you don't take home your CE funds or your health insurance payments.

I'll probably be banned form the forum for suggesting this by I wonder if lower remuneration has anything to do with the proliferation of females in the profession, since a lot of women with young children might be working part-time, not owning clinics, etc., and that would bring down the average salary. Or maybe female vets aren't pushing for higher pay the way men might?

Nope, women make less because we still live in a sexist society. When women negotiate they are seen as "bossy/demanding and needy" when men negotiate it is seen as "making sure he gets paid what he is worth and to provide for his family." This is true even of women clinic owners, they respond better to a man negotiating than another woman.

I have been told before that my negotiating to a higher salary was just me being "too needy and demanding", nevermind the fact that the salary offered was less than I made upon my initial graduation and I was an experienced vet at the time.

I have also heard of single women without kids or even married women without kids being denied pay raises while their colleagues with kids are given raises and clinic owners point blank telling them "I don't see why you need a raise, it isn't like you have a family or anything."

It just seems odd to me that vet med would be less lucrative now than in the past, because society currently values animals (especially pets) more than ever, so if anything, we should be in the golden age right now!

I mean, it is less lucrative in the sense that, yes, it likely is harder to get a business started, built up and successful than it was in the 80's. It used to be that a vet could start up a clinic, build it up, spend 20-30 years working, then sell it off for a nice lump sum and retire on that. That is much more difficult to do now.

I don't know why this vet you are talking to thinks associates make less now than they did before, but I strongly disagree and have the proof that associate salaries have only been increasing with time.

Unfortunately, student debt loads are also increasing. It used to be that vet school would only cost $20-50k and then you'd make a $40-50k salary and well, that is much easier to manage than the current financial situation. Now vet school loans are anywhere from $150k-400k+ and salaries are, on average, $80-90k, and even if you do make over $100k, still not great if you have $400k in student debt.

So in that sense, that the debt:salary ratio is astronomical now, yes it is a bit less "lucrative".

I'm Canadian, by the way, so I'd really love some insight from Canadian vets.

I thought Canadian vets made crap, like average salaries were easily $10-20k less than the US. Most Canadian vets I know don't make anywhere near $100k.

 

[kittensmeow]

I thought Canadian vets made crap, like average salaries were easily $10-20k less than the US. Most Canadian vets I know don't make anywhere near $100k.

Canadian vets definitely don't make crap. Most job postings I see are 80-90K starting salary, so I'm pretty sure it is comparable to US vets. I expect production-based salaries would often be more than that, provided of course it is a busy clinic and the vet is skilled. The 150K+ I mentioned earlier was pure salary, with CE allowance, health/dental plan, etc. on top of that, but it's a big clinic and I'm sure the vet worked long hours to make that much...still, pretty good for 2nd year out.

We also have very little debt compared to US grads - I think tuition is around 10K per year at most of our schools.

But how bad is this corporatization thing? I really am intent on owning my own practice, hopefully soon after graduating, and the idea of working for someone else my whole career is very unappealing to me. I know corporations have taken over dentistry, but I think most young dentists are still able to run their own clinic a few years after graduating....but maybe it's much harder to do this as a vet?

 

[DVMDream]

Canadian vets definitely don't make crap. Most job postings I see are 80-90K starting salary, so I'm pretty sure it is comparable to US vets. I expect production-based salaries would often be more than that, provided of course it is a busy clinic and the vet is skilled. The 150K+ I mentioned earlier was pure salary, with CE allowance, health/dental plan, etc. on top of that, but it's a big clinic and I'm sure the vet worked long hours to make that much...still, pretty good for 2nd year out.

We also have very little debt compared to US grads - I think tuition is around 10K per year at most of our schools.

But how bad is this corporatization thing? I really am intent on owning my own practice, hopefully soon after graduating, and the idea of working for someone else my whole career is very unappealing to me. I know corporations have taken over dentistry, but I think most young dentists are still able to run their own clinic a few years after graduating....but maybe it's much harder to do this as a vet?

I have never had the desire to own or operate my own clinic. I think more and more vets are electing not to own their own clinic. I want to be a veterinarian, not a business owner, if I had wanted to be a business owner, I'd have opened up a hotel/casino/restaurant empire --- hospitality is where the money is at.

It is difficult and demanding to be both a DVM and an owner, some people love it, it has never appealed to me. Ever.

As for the corporatization thing, it totally depends on what clinic you are trying to purchase. If it is a well established clinic with a lot of clients, bringing in good money, with a set staff and corporate shows interest. You will have a hard time competing against a corporation monetarily. Basically the DVM owner is likely going to have to agree to not take the likely much larger offer from corporate in order for you to get the clinic. I can't blame a practice owner for picking an offer that could easily be a couple million dollars more than an associate DVM could ever afford.

If it is a small clinic with few clients or that isn't performing as well, you might stand a better chance and heck, may be the only offer, but you are going to be working to build up that clinic instead of starting with an already built up clinic.

Or you can attempt to open your own practice, which means no established clients, staff, etc and you are starting from scratch. You might not make much, if any, money the first few years. Have to be ready for a potential break even/zero take home pay situation. You also have to find a bank willing to loan you the start up costs for a business like that, may or may not be an easy task, depending on the region, competition that is already present in the region, your credit status, amount of money you have at the time to put down initially, your business plan, etc.

 

[SARdoghandler]

Most job postings I see are 80-90K starting salary,

Depends on the province. I'm not making that much. I have classmates who are, though.

We also have very little debt compared to US grads - I think tuition is around 10K per year at most of our schools.

13k across most of them right now. Unless you're unfortunate enough to be offered and take an unsubsidized seat at wcvm - which will have a subset of Canadian graduates with US levels of debt.

Also, I have minimalish debt from vet school (probably somewhere around the average for my class which ranged from 0 to six figures). But I still think calling it "very little debt" would be a massive understatement. It's still a massive amount of money I have to pay back. I'm just really lucky that I have a better debt:income ratio than a lot of my US colleagues

 

[genny]

But how bad is this corporatization thing? I really am intent on owning my own practice, hopefully soon after graduating, and the idea of working for someone else my whole career is very unappealing to me. I know corporations have taken over dentistry, but I think most young dentists are still able to run their own clinic a few years after graduating....but maybe it's much harder to do this as a vet?

Depends on where you are and what size clinic you want. Most corporations in the US try to buy multi-doctor practices. So it’s still fairly easy to buy a practice from a solo practitioner, or someone with just one associate. My boss bought a 2.5 doctor practice about 3 years ago and we are now at 4 and looking for a 5th. So it’s still possible to own an independent clinic. It takes a lot of work though. I am really glad I’m not an owner.

 

[kittensmeow]

Depends on the province. I'm not making that much. I have classmates who are, though.

A Canadian! What province are you working in? I'm in Ontario, will be at OVC this fall. I didn't realize tuition was 13K....damn. I suspect salaries would be on the low end first year out, since a brand new vet is likely being mentored and probably doesn't bring in a lot of money for the clinic, but would go up a fair bit after a year or two if they switched to production-based pay.

 

[SocialStigma]

I'm a Canadian vet but a specialist so I don't have any input on GP salaries. However I think that in the 5 years since I've graduated, I have only seen increases in caseload (at least within my specialty) and spending on pets. I assume this means that GPs are doing well too, or else they wouldn't be referring away things like cystotomies, mass removals, extracapsular stabilization, etc and keeping them in-house instead.

 

[SARdoghandler]

A Canadian! What province are you working in? I'm in Ontario, will be at OVC this fall. I didn't realize tuition was 13K....damn. I suspect salaries would be on the low end first year out, since a brand new vet is likely being mentored and probably doesn't bring in a lot of money for the clinic, but would go up a fair bit after a year or two if they switched to production-based pay.

I am in NS. Just graduated from Calgary, so I was expecting to take a pay cut in comparison to a lot of my classmates who stayed but actually choosing to work for a corporate (not really by choice, I wanted to work in a certain area and the corp clinic was the only one that would be halfway decent for a new grad; that said, no major issues so far) has meant that my salary is not that far off my classmates. I would say that the spread of salary for my class from what I've heard was 70-92k - with the vast majority being on the 70-80 range. I make salary and production, but am definitely in the minority as a new grad on that system. Remains to be seen whether I will actually make enough to get a production bonus at all.

Overall, I'm pleased with my salary largely because I've chosen to live in a very low cost of living area. I own a house. If I'd stayed in Alberta, I might have made 5-10k a year more, but I wouldn't have been able to buy a house for years. I have a lower cieling being in NS (top projected salary is somewhere in the high 90s or scraping 6 figures) vs Alberta (low 6 figures much more common) but expect to still be ahead due to COL. I spent a lot of time on the CVMA salary survey results though to make educated decisions that would work for me. Was very pleased to be offered what is median to high salary for a new grad inNS based on that.

But yes, re: tuition. It goes up every year. In Alberta it will be going up 5% a year for the next 3 years and all the Canadian schools charge a very similar fee so I wouldn't be surprised if the rest go up. Our subsidized advantage is starting to be less and less an advantage. Tuition is definitely rising faster than salaries are here

 

[britzen]

Canadian vets definitely don't make crap. Most job postings I see are 80-90K starting salary, so I'm pretty sure it is comparable to US vets.

80-90K CAD? That would be about 58K-66K USD.

I don't remember the exact details for my school's most recent salary stats, but I think the average starting salary for the class of 2019 was around 78K USD, which would be about 106K CAD.

I wouldn't consider a 20% pay difference in average starting salary comparable. I wouldn't call it crap (I suspect @DVMDream might though), but I wouldn't accept a GP job for so little and I doubt many of my classmates would either.

The highest job offer in the class of 2019 was for someone working ER in a major city. They were offered 120K USD as a base salary. That would put them at 163K CAD - in the same ballpark as the person you mentioned making 150K 2 years out.

$1 USD =/ $1 CAD, which may be causing some confusion here. (Unless you were talking about Canadian salaries in USD, in which case, nevermind.)

 

[SARdoghandler]

80-90K CAD? That would be about 58K-66K USD.

I don't remember the exact details for my school's most recent salary stats, but I think the average starting salary for the class of 2019 was around 78K USD, which would be about 106K CAD.

I wouldn't consider a 20% pay difference in average starting salary comparable. I wouldn't call it crap (I suspect @DVMDream might though), but I wouldn't accept a GP job for so little and I doubt many of my classmates would either.

The highest job offer in the class of 2019 was for someone working ER in a major city. They were offered 120K USD as a base salary. That would put them at 163K CAD - in the same ballpark as the person you mentioned making 150K 2 years out.

$1 USD =/ $1 CAD, which may be causing some confusion here. (Unless you were talking about Canadian salaries in USD, in which case, nevermind.)

This is 100% accurate. You can definitely make way more money on an apples to apples basis in the US. I also think though that most Canadian salaries are lower than US ones across multiple industries? No stats for that, just my thought anyway haha

I don't consider it "crap" pay - but then I knew what I expected to be paid as a Canadian vet before I applied for school (which I think is very important). And I basically have a 1:1 debt to income ratio right now on just my salary which will hopefully improve when my fiance gets his job.

Whenever someone tells me how much money I must be going to make in a couple years I usually will tell them that I will never be rich off a vet's salary, but I make more than the average household income for my province and it's enough to be comfortable. I think going into it with very realistic expectations is super important.

 

[kittensmeow]

I'm a Canadian vet but a specialist so I don't have any input on GP salaries. However I think that in the 5 years since I've graduated, I have only seen increases in caseload (at least within my specialty) and spending on pets. I assume this means that GPs are doing well too, or else they wouldn't be referring away things like cystotomies, mass removals, extracapsular stabilization, etc and keeping them in-house instead.

How are salaries for specialists? And is there a need for specialists (I suppose it greatly depends on which specialty)? I imagine being a specialist means you need to be more flexible and go wherever the jobs are.

 

[SocialStigma]

How are salaries for specialists? And is there a need for specialists (I suppose it greatly depends on which specialty)? I imagine being a specialist means you need to be more flexible and go wherever the jobs are.

Really depends on the specialty, where you live/work, and whether it's in private practice or academia. I'm a surgeon so I can only speak to surgeon salaries but generally there's a starting salary of $100-130k in academia and $160-200k in private practice. Surgeons are in extremely high demand right now, when I was looking for jobs last year there were literally 5-10 new job listings every week. I am a year out of my residency and still have recruiters emailing me offering ridiculous compensation packages (think $300k USD base salary, $50-60k signing bonus, 25-30% production) on behalf of practices. Being a specialist does mean you're limited to cities that are large enough to support an emergency/referral practice, but there are so many of them nowadays that it's not really an issue unless you want to live in a super rural town.

 

[JaynaAli]

Like SocialStimga said, it varies as a specialist. To provide the alternate viewpoint, I am a pathologist and salaries are in the 85-115k [US] range basically for everyone right out of residency (academia or diagnostics). Might be a little higher in industry (preclinical drug development mostly) but that’s a small niche in the field. For clinical pathology specifically, openings basically production of new specialists...up until covid hit most people found jobs, but you couldn’t be too choosy and might have to go where there was a job rather than getting to pick where you want to live and easily finding a position. This year’s crop of residents that are just now finishing their training are having a really tough time finding positions...there‘s almost no jobs open right now and June-Sep is historically when like 75-90% of the hiring happens in clin path as people shuffle around and residencies end, so it’s a scary time for them. Like most are considering temporary GP and ER work now because there’s nothing out there for them.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Really depends on the specialty, where you live/work, and whether it's in private practice or academia. I'm a surgeon so I can only speak to surgeon salaries but generally there's a starting salary of $100-130k in academia and $160-200k in private practice. Surgeons are in extremely high demand right now, when I was looking for jobs last year there were literally 5-10 new job listings every week. I am a year out of my residency and still have recruiters emailing me offering ridiculous compensation packages (think $300k USD base salary, $50-60k signing bonus, 25-30% production) on behalf of practices. Being a specialist does mean you're limited to cities that are large enough to support an emergency/referral practice, but there are so many of them nowadays that it's not really an issue unless you want to live in a super rural town.

seriously, surgeons are such a hot commodity right now! So many places that have lost surgeons not being able to replace them for years if they are smaller fish (smaller ER and hybrid hospitals).

 

[SocialStigma]

seriously, surgeons are such a hot commodity right now! So many places that have lost surgeons not being able to replace them for years if they are smaller fish (smaller ER and hybrid hospitals).

Yes, for sure, a lot of ER/referral hospitals are growing rapidly too and need more surgeons to share the call duties and accommodate the increase in caseload. I'm the 2nd surgeon in a 2 surgeon practice and I've only been working since last September but already we have the caseload for a 3rd surgeon.

 

[LetItSnow]

It just seems odd to me that vet med would be less lucrative now than in the past, because society currently values animals (especially pets) more than ever, so if anything, we should be in the golden age right now!

It's a mistake to think that even if they do spend more money that translates into higher incomes for typical associate veterinarians and their staff. With more corporate practice, I think profits are transferred to shareholders more than associates.

That said, I certainly make plenty of money. The amount I am paid has nothing (or very little, anyway) to do with my displeasure with the field. It's what I have to go through make that money - it's not worth it. The positive experiences aren't sufficient to outweigh the constant drag of the negatives.

I don't know exactly what 'golden age' means, I guess. I'm sure it's a subjective kinda thing.

Like SocialStimga said, [pay] varies as a specialist.

Super general rule with plenty of exceptions, but I think it shakes out with SOME reasonable accuracy; the specialties that generate lotsa revenue directly tend to pay production and thus earn more, and the support specialties (pathology, anesthesia, radiology, critical care - though there are exceptions in every of those categories) tend to pay comparatively less because their piece of the pie comes from the rest of us. I make more than any of those specialties as a non-specialist because I'm paid production; they are often-but-not-always paid salary.

seriously, surgeons are such a hot commodity right now! So many places that have lost surgeons not being able to replace them for years if they are smaller fish (smaller ER and hybrid hospitals).

We have never had too much trouble hiring surgeons - it's freakin' cardiologists that you can't find. We literally looked for .... hmm .... maybe two years? ... before finding one to join us. We really only lack two specialties - derm for very regional-specific reasons that aren't relevant, and anesthesia because we can't figure out how to pay them and/or if it would really be worth it to have one. We talk about anesthesia from time to time, and every once in a while you get some weird case where you're like "damn I wish we had an anesthesiologist" but .... not really enough to justify paying one full time.

All in all, if you want to enjoy being a vet, I think your odds are higher as a specialist if there's a specialty that appeals to you. Their overall caseload is more manageable, their pay is generally much higher, their hours are decent [but can suck depending on on-call needs for that particular specialty].

In some ways we're probably in the 'golden age' of specialists - it's exploded in numbers as compared to a decade or two ago and continues to do so. I'm wondering when it will plateau and what it will look like at that point. Kinda wondering if we'll get to a point where specialist pay drops because of supply 'n demand shifting toward oversupply. Maybe not. Maybe some sort of steady-state will be reached. I'm a little suspicious the pendulum will swing too far because the debt:income ratio will drive people to specialties and away from GP and then in a decade we'll be overloaded with specialists and not enough GPs. Dunno.

 

[SocialStigma]

In some ways we're probably in the 'golden age' of specialists - it's exploded in numbers as compared to a decade or two ago and continues to do so. I'm wondering when it will plateau and what it will look like at that point. Kinda wondering if we'll get to a point where specialist pay drops because of supply 'n demand shifting toward oversupply. Maybe not. Maybe some sort of steady-state will be reached. I'm a little suspicious the pendulum will swing too far because the debt:income ratio will drive people to specialties and away from GP and then in a decade we'll be overloaded with specialists and not enough GPs. Dunno.

Interesting to think about but I doubt that will happen only because the rate-limiting step to becoming a specialist will always be matching to a residency in the first place. It seems like across most specialties (definitely in the more popular ones - surgery, IM, radiology, etc), there are way more applicants than available residency positions, and it's rare for residency positions to go unmatched. During my residency, we routinely had ~160-175 applicants for 1-2 positions each year. Of those candidates who don't match, the majority of them will eventually go into GP/ER work.

 

[kittensmeow]

I make more than any of those specialties as a non-specialist because I'm paid production; they are often-but-not-always paid salary.

So would it be accurate to say that in general, production-based pay is higher than a salary with no production? I say 'in general' because you would need to be working for a busy clinic. And this might explain why the 'average salary' for a vet always seems so low, since the advertised salaries are just that, base salaries, and a clinic can't advertise how much you'll actually bring in with production. That would explain why vet salaries always seem stuck in the 70-90K range.

But one concern of mine is that production-based pay would really encourage the sales aspect of vet med, and I can't see how it could be otherwise. I've heard of clinic owners chastising their vets because he/she didn't push the sale of some unnecessary product or procedure. This really turns me off and is one reason why I've long debated between vet med and human med. In Canada, at least, MDs are paid by the government and don't need to advertise themselves and sell their services in the same way vets (and dentists) do.

 

[kittensmeow]

Really depends on the specialty, where you live/work, and whether it's in private practice or academia. I'm a surgeon so I can only speak to surgeon salaries but generally there's a starting salary of $100-130k in academia and $160-200k in private practice. Surgeons are in extremely high demand right now, when I was looking for jobs last year there were literally 5-10 new job listings every week. I am a year out of my residency and still have recruiters emailing me offering ridiculous compensation packages (think $300k USD base salary, $50-60k signing bonus, 25-30% production) on behalf of practices. Being a specialist does mean you're limited to cities that are large enough to support an emergency/referral practice, but there are so many of them nowadays that it's not really an issue unless you want to live in a super rural town.

This is very encouraging! Is it very difficult to become a specialist (say a surgeon) in Canada (is it entirely grades-based and only open to the top 5% in their class, for example)?

 

[battie]

But one concern of mine is that production-based pay would really encourage the sales aspect of vet med, and I can't see how it could be otherwise.

I dont see this as an inherently bad thing for two reasons.

1: you're already going to try to "sell" your treatment plan to owners because you're the doctor and the scientist. Many owners do not have the skill/knowledge base to understand why one antibiotic is better than the other, and so you have to say, "We need to use x drug to treat the UTI". When the owner asks, "Isnt there a cheaper drug? The antibiotic we bought for his skin infection was cheaper." You then explain why drug x is better. By that same token, clients who are money conscious question everything you recommend. So it would be inherently difficult to truly sell someone on something truly unnecessary.

2: your client is free to decline whatever they want. Just yesterday, client declined a urine culture for a UTI and elected to treat empirically. We present the options that owners have from "gold standard" to simply just the exam. It's up to them to do what they deem is necessary to spend their money on for their animal.

 

[DVMDream]

So would it be accurate to say that in general, production-based pay is higher than a salary with no production? I say 'in general' because you would need to be working for a busy clinic. And this might explain why the 'average salary' for a vet always seems so low, since the advertised salaries are just that, base salaries, and a clinic can't advertise how much you'll actually bring in with production. That would explain why vet salaries always seem stuck in the 70-90K range.

But one concern of mine is that production-based pay would really encourage the sales aspect of vet med, and I can't see how it could be otherwise. I've heard of clinic owners chastising their vets because he/she didn't push the sale of some unnecessary product or procedure. This really turns me off and is one reason why I've long debated between vet med and human med. In Canada, at least, MDs are paid by the government and don't need to advertise themselves and sell their services in the same way vets (and dentists) do.

I've never really seen anyone push or recommend unnecessary things to an owner in order to make more money. Yes, technically possible and I'm sure some vet somewhere has done it but I think that's the exception. Trust me, most vets are busy enough the last thing they want is to create even more work for themselves.

I've also never seen it drive competition to take or steal cases from other colleagues has been the other argument. Again, I'm sure someone has done it somewhere, but it isn't common from what I've seen.

Production based pay can definitely be more than straight salary but it really depends. You're more at the mercy of what people do/don't do and it varies by season. So you have to get used to your take home pay constantly changing. You also have to be wary of negative accrual. Some clinics pay part salary and then production if you bring in more than needed to cover your salary (this is actually the most common set up for pay). If you don't bring in enough to cover your salary and have negative accrual that negative amount can be requested you to pay back or they'll use that to decrease your salary the next year.

 

[SocialStigma]

This is very encouraging! Is it very difficult to become a specialist (say a surgeon) in Canada (is it entirely grades-based and only open to the top 5% in their class, for example)?

It is difficult to become a specialist in general. I'll use surgery as an example but a lot of this applies to other specialties too. Worldwide, there are only 2 internationally recognized bodies that certify surgeons (aka produce "board certified surgeons"). In North America, we have the ACVS (American College of Veterinary Surgeons), and UK/Europe has their equivalent (ECVS). Matching to an ACVS residency program is a combination of good class rank (not just limited to the top 5%, but higher is obviously better), excellent LORs, research/publication experience, and pure luck. However you are competing against people from all around the world, not just other Canadians and Americans for a coveted spot. I know many people who have applied 3-5 years in a row without matching before they gave up. Also if someone has any geographic restrictions (eg. a Canadian who would prefer to remain in Canada), your chances drop significantly. The majority of residency programs offered are in the US, so you have to be willing to move.

 

[itsrocky]

So would it be accurate to say that in general, production-based pay is higher than a salary with no production? I say 'in general' because you would need to be working for a busy clinic. And this might explain why the 'average salary' for a vet always seems so low, since the advertised salaries are just that, base salaries, and a clinic can't advertise how much you'll actually bring in with production. That would explain why vet salaries always seem stuck in the 70-90K range.

But one concern of mine is that production-based pay would really encourage the sales aspect of vet med, and I can't see how it could be otherwise. I've heard of clinic owners chastising their vets because he/she didn't push the sale of some unnecessary product or procedure. This really turns me off and is one reason why I've long debated between vet med and human med. In Canada, at least, MDs are paid by the government and don't need to advertise themselves and sell their services in the same way vets (and dentists) do.

“Unnecessary” means one thing to the vet and another thing to pretty much anyone else. If I don’t do a renal panel on the young male cat spraying excessively, is everything likely to be ok and not related to the kidneys? Potentially. If I treat it with Feliway and enrichment and never do that panel, in the owner’s mind, it was never needed. Which is great. But is it good to do to screen renal disease? You bet. Because what if I don’t screen for it? A test not having an abnormal value doesn’t mean it wasn’t “necessary”. Now, if I sent off a tick titer on this same cat, then yes, that would be unnecessary.

 

[battie]

I've also never seen it drive competition to take or steal cases from other colleagues has been the other

To add to this, I've actually seen clinicians share a case and split the money evenly based on contribution more than anything else.

 

[Minnerbelle]

To add to this, I've actually seen clinicians share a case and split the money evenly based on contribution more than anything else.

if people are paid on production, I feel much better about leaving lab callbacks to my colleagues on my weekends and vacations because I can put the labs under them and they get paid for it. Allows me to enjoy my time off without it being an undue hardship on my colleagues.

 

[LetItSnow]

So would it be accurate to say that in general, production-based pay is higher than a salary with no production? I say 'in general' because you would need to be working for a busy clinic. And this might explain why the 'average salary' for a vet always seems so low, since the advertised salaries are just that, base salaries, and a clinic can't advertise how much you'll actually bring in with production. That would explain why vet salaries always seem stuck in the 70-90K range.

But one concern of mine is that production-based pay would really encourage the sales aspect of vet med, and I can't see how it could be otherwise. I've heard of clinic owners chastising their vets because he/she didn't push the sale of some unnecessary product or procedure. This really turns me off and is one reason why I've long debated between vet med and human med. In Canada, at least, MDs are paid by the government and don't need to advertise themselves and sell their services in the same way vets (and dentists) do.

Um. I guess I'm not sure I know enough to say whether that's a good generalization or not. I would guess it is, but.....

With regards to the "production encourages a vet to do unnecessary stuff," DVMDream covered that well. I'm sure some vet somewhere does and has done it, but I personally (working in a very large ER and referral situation) do not know ANY vets that do that.

Look at the reverse argument. If I'm paid salary, what's my incentive to do my best for the patient? I make as much no matter what, right? So my incentive is to do as little work as possible. So that vomiting/diarrhea dog comes in .... what am I gonna do on salary? I'm gonna say "here's some subq fluids and cerenia and metronidazole .... call me back if it ain't working. kkthxbai." I'm not going to want to do bloodwork and rads and maybe a fecal because hey, that's extra work and I have to interpret the diagnostics and be a real doctor, and I'm not getting paid any more to do that extra work.....

Which doctor would YOU rather have? The one that has incentive to do a thorough job with your pet, or the one that's like "screw it - I'm getting paid the same either way, so I might as well just half-ass this and move on to the next case."

 

[Minnerbelle]

Which doctor would YOU rather have? The one that has incentive to do a thorough job with your pet, or the one that's like "screw it - I'm getting paid the same either way, so I might as well just half-ass this and move on to the next case."

Depends on the client I guess. There are a bunch of clients who loooooove the no diagnostics, always knows how to fix things with a shot of depo and pen G type of doc. They would love the salaried doc who sees 10 min sick appts. Different strokes for different folks man.

 

[DVMDream]

Um. I guess I'm not sure I know enough to say whether that's a good generalization or not. I would guess it is, but.....

With regards to the "production encourages a vet to do unnecessary stuff," DVMDream covered that well. I'm sure some vet somewhere does and has done it, but I personally (working in a very large ER and referral situation) do not know ANY vets that do that.

Look at the reverse argument. If I'm paid salary, what's my incentive to do my best for the patient? I make as much no matter what, right? So my incentive is to do as little work as possible. So that vomiting/diarrhea dog comes in .... what am I gonna do on salary? I'm gonna say "here's some subq fluids and cerenia and metronidazole .... call me back if it ain't working. kkthxbai." I'm not going to want to do bloodwork and rads and maybe a fecal because hey, that's extra work and I have to interpret the diagnostics and be a real doctor, and I'm not getting paid any more to do that extra work.....

Which doctor would YOU rather have? The one that has incentive to do a thorough job with your pet, or the one that's like "screw it - I'm getting paid the same either way, so I might as well just half-ass this and move on to the next case."

I'm sure there are those salaried vets that do just the above, but, again, far and few between. More the exception than what is common. All of the salaried colleagues I worked with recommended proper workups, yes, there were times we'd secretly be hoping the owner wouldn't approve all the things, but find a vet who hasn't had that thought.

I can also think of one rather famous example of a vet who is not salaried and still does exactly the above. The old school burn through as many pets as you can, doing as minimal as possible and still make buckets of money.

You can probably find a vet example in all the "crap" categories, but they are going to be the few, not the majority.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm sure there are those salaried vets that do just the above, but, again, far and few between. More the exception than what is common. All of the salaried colleagues I worked with recommended proper workups, yes, there were times we'd secretly be hoping the owner wouldn't approve all the things, but find a vet who hasn't had that thought.

Wasn't really my point, though I didn't communicate it well.

My point was that if you're going to try and make the argument "production encourages excessive work-up" .... then you rationally have to acknowledge the same argument in reverse that "salary encourages lazy doctoring."

I don't really believe EITHER are true specifically. There are probably some doctors trying to over-bill to make money, and there are definitely lazy doctors (though I don't think it's driven by being on salary), but I don't feel like it has to do with either of those pay-style arguments. The majority of doctors seem to be out there just trying to do their best to see their patients and do right by them.

Maybe it's just where I work, but we're all so busy that the last thing I want is extra stuff on a client's bill. I want to do only what I feel is necessary. If anything, caseload probably has more impact on how good of a job I do, rather than how I'm paid. We are so absurdly busy ---- literally EVERY SINGLE 24-HR REFERRAL AND ER IN MINNEAPOLIS/ST. PAUL was closed most of the afternoon yesterday because of caseload ---- that I'm sure some of us (me included) have dropped the ball rushing through a case and either not doing as much as we should have, or doing a half-assed job with what we did, or missing some diagnostic clue or PE clue ....... nothing to do with how we are paid, all entirely because there are a dozen cases waiting behind this one that have all already been waiting for 4...5...6...7.. hours to be seen.

Yesterday was just ridiculous. Clients calling us screaming that their pet needs to be seen and is in distress ........ and nowhere to go. Nobody taking cases. Period. Nobody. We were sending clients to park in the lot of one of our nearby "ER hours only" places just so they could get seen --- 4 hours later when that ER opened. Unreal.

But anyway, all of the bull**** second-guessing about a doctor's motives ... that's mostly client fantasy nonsense.

 

[DVMDream]

Wasn't really my point, though I didn't communicate it well.

My point was that if you're going to try and make the argument "production encourages excessive work-up" .... then you rationally have to acknowledge the same argument in reverse that "salary encourages lazy doctoring."

I don't really believe EITHER are true specifically. There are probably some doctors trying to over-bill to make money, and there are definitely lazy doctors (though I don't think it's driven by being on salary), but I don't feel like it has to do with either of those pay-style arguments. The majority of doctors seem to be out there just trying to do their best to see their patients and do right by them.

Maybe it's just where I work, but we're all so busy that the last thing I want is extra stuff on a client's bill. I want to do only what I feel is necessary. If anything, caseload probably has more impact on how good of a job I do, rather than how I'm paid. We are so absurdly busy ---- literally EVERY SINGLE 24-HR REFERRAL AND ER IN MINNEAPOLIS/ST. PAUL was closed most of the afternoon yesterday because of caseload ---- that I'm sure some of us (me included) have dropped the ball rushing through a case and either not doing as much as we should have, or doing a half-assed job with what we did, or missing some diagnostic clue or PE clue ....... nothing to do with how we are paid, all entirely because there are a dozen cases waiting behind this one that have all already been waiting for 4...5...6...7.. hours to be seen.

Yesterday was just ridiculous. Clients calling us screaming that their pet needs to be seen and is in distress ........ and nowhere to go. Nobody taking cases. Period. Nobody. We were sending clients to park in the lot of one of our nearby "ER hours only" places just so they could get seen --- 4 hours later when that ER opened. Unreal.

But anyway, all of the bull**** second-guessing about a doctor's motives ... that's mostly client fantasy nonsense.

Sorry, I totally should've said I get your point and that you weren't implying that's what salary vets do. I just wanted to clarify that what you mentioned (the legitimate flip side of the salary vs production pay motive/non motives) doesn't actually happen since the OP originally made comments about believing the "pushing of unnecessary things" for production paid vets, wanted to make it clear half assing to avoid work isn't common for salary vets either.

And yeah what the **** is happening with case load lately? Holy hell it is intense, even for us and so much complaining about waiting.

 

[Minnerbelle]

But anyway, all of the bull**** second-guessing about a doctor's motives ... that's mostly client fantasy nonsense.

this.

there are shoddy vets and decent vets everywhere. I don’t think how they’re compensated is what makes the difference.

I do see some minor behavioral effects of different compensation types on doctors, but it’s not the predominant driver for sure

 

[Minnerbelle]

And fo sheezy, it is freaking bonkers right now with every clinic operating beyond capacity with no end in sight!

 

[Trilt]

Look at the reverse argument. If I'm paid salary, what's my incentive to do my best for the patient? I make as much no matter what, right? So my incentive is to do as little work as possible. So that vomiting/diarrhea dog comes in .... what am I gonna do on salary? I'm gonna say "here's some subq fluids and cerenia and metronidazole .... call me back if it ain't working. kkthxbai." I'm not going to want to do bloodwork and rads and maybe a fecal because hey, that's extra work and I have to interpret the diagnostics and be a real doctor, and I'm not getting paid any more to do that extra work.....

Which doctor would YOU rather have? The one that has incentive to do a thorough job with your pet, or the one that's like "screw it - I'm getting paid the same either way, so I might as well just half-ass this and move on to the next case."

My point was that if you're going to try and make the argument "production encourages excessive work-up" .... then you rationally have to acknowledge the same argument in reverse that "salary encourages lazy doctoring."

I don't really believe EITHER are true specifically. There are probably some doctors trying to over-bill to make money, and there are definitely lazy doctors (though I don't think it's driven by being on salary), but I don't feel like it has to do with either of those pay-style arguments. The majority of doctors seem to be out there just trying to do their best to see their patients and do right by them.

I agree that the end conclusion is just, there are some crappy doctors out there who skate by or who push ****, but most of us are just doing what we can to do good. I think being overwhelmed is much more of a component of not recommending more extensive care than how you're paid. I'm paid salary (mostly). There is no connection in my brain between what I offer and what I'm paid, it's based on what the animal in front of me looks like and what I think is needed. I've personally always been a bit squicky on production pay for doctors of all variety, but I know that's a me thing. I think I've discussed it here before.

I appreciate the idea of production a bit more recently dealing with a doctor who we're hardcore having to pick up slack on, lol, but he's an owner so it wouldn't make much difference anyway. In general, though, I really like the way my clinic works, which is salary but with quarterly bonuses for everyone (including established lay staff) based on how the clinic is doing in general. Rising tide raises all boats.

 

[Trilt]

Case in point: this salaried bitch almost(!) got a lunch today. Last appointment I looked at was a cat who vomited twice last night. Non painful abdomen, totally normal looking otherwise. Offered medical management vs. rads/workup... then spent my whole lunch scoping wire and what felt like half a fiber optic kid toy out of her stomach. Sigh. Is what it is!

 

[kittensmeow]

And fo sheezy, it is freaking bonkers right now with every clinic operating beyond capacity with no end in sight!

How long do you think the currently excellent job market (in Canada, at least) for vets will last? I'll be graduating in 2024 so I sure hope it lasts until then and beyond, but I know that as recently as 3-4 years ago it was terrible: some of the vets I shadowed warned me that there were simply no jobs available...these same vets are now practically asking me if I'll join their clinic before I've even started vet school. So boy would it ever suck if things took a down turn while I'm in school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

How long do you think the currently excellent job market (in Canada, at least) for vets will last? I'll be graduating in 2024 so I sure hope it lasts until then and beyond, but I know that as recently as 3-4 years ago it was terrible: some of the vets I shadowed warned me that there were simply no jobs available...these same vets are now practically asking me if I'll join their clinic before I've even started vet school. So boy would it ever suck if things took a down turn while I'm in school.

I mean... the market can crash any second...

 

[Lupin21]

Yeah, motives are for people who have energy. None of us have any right now with this ridiculous state of things. Heh

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah, motives are for people who have energy. None of us have any right now with this ridiculous state of things. Heh

You: ah **** I’m 30 min behind, and there are like 4 walk ins waiting. At least this next one is a wellness on a pet that’s doing great. Let’s bang this out!

Wellness Client: And I think I’d like some bloodwork cause she’s old, and some xrays for the rare cough she does once in a blue moon. And FNA of allllll the lumps and bumps

You: hm... really? Are you sure? Like... really? You don’t want to just “watch it?” Oh poo~

 

[Lupin21]

You: ah **** I’m 30 min behind, and there are like 4 walk ins waiting. At least this next one is a wellness on a pet that’s doing great. Let’s bang this out!

Wellness Client: And I think I’d like some bloodwork cause she’s old, and some xrays for the rare cough she does once in a blue moon. And FNA of allllll the lumps and bumps

You: hm... really? Are you sure? Like... really? You don’t want to just “watch it?” Oh poo~

Yeah. Today’s was...”Did you notice the yellow tint to your cats ears and nose? No, well unfortunately I can’t do vax and nail trim right now as I think we need to look into this.”

 

[kittensmeow]

I mean... the market can crash any second...

But I've heard that vet med is recession-proof (apparently practice valuations are based on this fact), although I'm pretty skeptical of this. So I just wondered if there was some other reason why things were so desperate a few years ago and are so positive now.

 

[Minnerbelle]

But I've heard that vet med is recession-proof (apparently practice valuations are based on this fact), although I'm pretty skeptical of this. So I just wondered if there was some other reason why things were so desperate a few years ago and are so positive now.

It is most definitely not recession proof.

yes animals will still exist, and yes they will get sick. But when people have no job and no money, they will not bring their pet in when they get sick. Or they will simply euthanize if they are very sick. When you’re behind on your mortgage, your credit cards are maxed out, and you still need groceries you simply can’t dish out $1000 for multiple trips to the office for your vomiting dog, or for a dental, or even a few hundred for wellness.

the economy has been really good over the past several years.

 

[dyachei]

Want to go back to corporatization as a practice owner. I find that competing with them is really easy. Mostly because clients HATE the turnover from them and want to stick with a few vets they know over a constant revolving door (not all corporate practices, but they do tend to, on average, have a higher turnover rate).

 

[that redhead]

Want to go back to corporatization as a practice owner. I find that competing with them is really easy. Mostly because clients HATE the turnover from them and want to stick with a few vets they know over a constant revolving door (not all corporate practices, but they do tend to, on average, have a higher turnover rate).

We get a lot of clients from them because (at least our local locations) don’t tend to do much sick pet care. Vaccines/preventative health aplenty but if your dog is sick they seem to be slow to react/work up.

 

[dyachei]

We get a lot of clients from them because (at least our local locations) don’t tend to do much sick pet care. Vaccines/preventative health aplenty but if your dog is sick they seem to be slow to react/work up.

SAME. It's really infuriating because they'll even turf us some of their sick pets when we're overloaded.

 

[that redhead]

SAME. It's really infuriating because they'll even turf us some of their sick pets when we're overloaded.

Ugh! Like wouldn’t we all just rather see the routine annuals?

 

[LetItSnow]

SAME. It's really infuriating because they'll even turf us some of their sick pets when we're overloaded.

Back in the 'old' days (man things are changing fast) of seeing things on ER overnight and turfing them back to their GP for care during the day .... we got contacted by a corporate practice who flat-out said "we can't take care of sick patients. please do not send our clients back to us. keep them hospitalized there."

Nowadays that's really more the norm. The only ones I transfer back to their GP are when the client insists on it because they love their GP or cost or whatever. But as a rule, when I hospitalize something, I just plan to keep it until it discharges to home care or croaks.

 

[dyachei]

Back in the 'old' days (man things are changing fast) of seeing things on ER overnight and turfing them back to their GP for care during the day .... we got contacted by a corporate practice who flat-out said "we can't take care of sick patients. please do not send our clients back to us. keep them hospitalized there."

Nowadays that's really more the norm. The only ones I transfer back to their GP are when the client insists on it because they love their GP or cost or whatever. But as a rule, when I hospitalize something, I just plan to keep it until it discharges to home care or croaks.

Yeah see, I don't mind either way. I can take a transfer as long as I know what your recs are or you can keep it. But it's downright disappointing to see clinics that can't or won't take care of their clients when they can.

the one I remember being turfed recently was a blocked cat.