Goldwater Violation

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If I recall there were a few Psychiatrists who made comments on Trump or other public people in the past 4 years. Has there been any consequences for any of these Psychiatrists opining on public figures?

Or has the medical establishment further denigrated* and we are now in the midst of open season with commentary and off the cuff assessments?

*The debacle of Yale offering CME that openly expressed racial hate and murderous expressions.

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The ethical concerns potentially involved with commenting on the behavior or mental state of public figures, ie "the Goldwater Rule," was something raised by a small group of psychiatrists many decades ago and never put to a vote by even the full membership of the APA, much less all psychiatrists as a whole. There is evidence that opposition to this sort of commentary is not supported by a majority of practicing psychiatrists today, if it ever was. It is not something that is enforced by a state medical board I have ever seen and I think there would be serious First Amendment concerns raised if it was. So to answer your question, no.
 
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1) Enforcement could come from the APA for those who are still APA members.
2) The APA can still make a public commentary lambasting a specific Psychiatrist pointing out the unethical nature, in addition to sending the person a registered letter.

Despite limited power, or teeth, there are still things to draw attention to the unethical nature and hopefully reduce it.

I vaguely recall one or two of the people in the previous 4 years were academic faculty with larger institutions. I believe we can and should expect better from academic institutions. It's one thing if a random unaffiliated community doctor in private practice says things, its another when academic faculty that have the weight of an institution behind their name/comments.
 
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APA could try to enforce some sort of action if they wished to do so,. But, I would imagine that there would be subsequent lawsuits. Also, they would risk wading into a contentious issue that would piss off a good portion of their membership. Honestly, the smart move, at least organizationally, is to do nothing.
 
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That's unfortunate. So in essence there is no Goldwater Rule and we are free to comment as we please.
 
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One would hope that we wouldn't need a special rule against using psychiatric (or medical) terminology as a tool of political power. And yet that dangerous road will continue to be traveled.



You mean like this?

 
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That's unfortunate. So in essence there is no Goldwater Rule and we are free to comment as we please.

It's still a violation of the APA code of ethics and Bandy Lee was (correctly, imo) dismissed from Yale for her statements towards Trump.


One would hope that we wouldn't need a special rule against using psychiatric (or medical) terminology as a tool of political power. And yet that dangerous road will continue to be traveled.

Yes, I have no problems with psychiatrists advocating for individuals of concern to be evaluated, but making definitive statements is another thing. What concerns me the most is that the most prominent individuals in the more recent situations (Bandy Lee, Aruna Khilanani) are FORENSIC psychiatrists. I would hope that individuals with that training would put themselves and their own statements under greater scrutiny, but maybe I'm just naïve.


You mean like this?


Nah, there's a significant difference between a joint statement regarding a specific diagnosis, it's treatment, and who is qualified to make such a diagnosis (the above) and making statements regarding an individual's or a demographic's diagnoses and what rights/opportunities they should have (statements regarding Trump, psychopathic problem of the white mind, claims that HRC or Biden have dementia, etc).
 
A problem with Bandy Lee is it appeared she was trying to take her anti-Trump views to a profit-media angle. E.g. appearing on the political talk show circuit where I assume she was being paid. I don't know if she was, but also endorsing her publications via these media outlets.

I'm keeping this down to the rules, not the politics. Just like I found she crossed the line, so too have people with differing political angles trying to go into an area claiming Biden has dementia (including the "Medical A-Team on Fox News, the psychiatrist who pushed that angle was criticized by then APA president Jeff Lieberman about it).

Several people regularly violate several medical rules. I've seen doctors violate HIPAA, doctors give out objectively bad meds, etc. The police won't do anything about and they're not in a position to do so. They aren't trained in medicine. State medical boards usually only go after egregious and repeat violators. E.g. the doctor found to have had sex with dozens of patients. I wouldn't have been surprised if no action was taken against Bandy Lee.
 
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The Goldwater Rule will never truly be enforced with consequences. I'm torn on whether it should. Sure you shouldn't make a diagnosis without evaluating the patient, but the psychiatrists who did this literally make a living with expert testimony about patients they likely haven't evaluated themselves (unless hired by the patient's attorney). They go by medical records. In Trump's case, like Biden's, the "medical" record is public appearances. That's their eval, whether or not it was one on one.
 
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I am not an APA member, so I can. Don't know about you

Same. APA doesn't get to tell me what I can and cannot do, especially since what I think they should or should not do means nothing to them.
 
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It's still a violation of the APA code of ethics and Bandy Lee was (correctly, imo) dismissed from Yale for her statements towards Trump.




Yes, I have no problems with psychiatrists advocating for individuals of concern to be evaluated, but making definitive statements is another thing. What concerns me the most is that the most prominent individuals in the more recent situations (Bandy Lee, Aruna Khilanani) are FORENSIC psychiatrists. I would hope that individuals with that training would put themselves and their own statements under greater scrutiny, but maybe I'm just naïve.




Nah, there's a significant difference between a joint statement regarding a specific diagnosis, it's treatment, and who is qualified to make such a diagnosis (the above) and making statements regarding an individual's or a demographic's diagnoses and what rights/opportunities they should have (statements regarding Trump, psychopathic problem of the white mind, claims that HRC or Biden have dementia, etc).
She was dismissed because of her comments against Dershowitz, not Trump
 
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1) Enforcement could come from the APA for those who are still APA members.
2) The APA can still make a public commentary lambasting a specific Psychiatrist pointing out the unethical nature, in addition to sending the person a registered letter.

Despite limited power, or teeth, there are still things to draw attention to the unethical nature and hopefully reduce it.

I vaguely recall one or two of the people in the previous 4 years were academic faculty with larger institutions. I believe we can and should expect better from academic institutions. It's one thing if a random unaffiliated community doctor in private practice says things, its another when academic faculty that have the weight of an institution behind their name/comments.
Academia is full of liberals. They also think they are smarter than everyone else. Esther choo spews racism against white males but says her comments have nothing to do with ohsu. They don't censure her because they agree with her.
 
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That's unfortunate. So in essence there is no Goldwater Rule and we are free to comment as we please.
There can be consequences such as if you do get into legal trouble, peer-review, promotion at work, etc the fact that you violated professional ethics can tilt things against you, but in terms of the law? Likely not.

What people don't get is hardly anything is enforced by the law. Take a look at that jogger that was shot to death in Georgia and his alleged killers weren't arrested for weeks. Police tend to only break up violent incidents. A patient of mine, her car was stolen, she even located her car on her own and the police did nothing about it.

The big enforcer is you break rules it damns you in society. E.g. you don't pay bills -> you credit score plummets, other people avoid you, etc.
 
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She was dismissed because of her comments against Dershowitz, not Trump
"After multiple appeals, Krystal in a September 4, 2020, letter gave as reasons for Lee's termination: 'your repeated violations of the APA's Goldwater Rule and your inappropriate transfer of the duty to warn from the treatment setting to national politics.' " (Bandy X. Lee - Wikipedia)

Sounds like it was more than just Dershowitz. That said, she's suing Yale, so we'll see how that all plays out.

Personally, I think its stupid to "diagnose" people without examining them, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with stating that a public figure's characteristics correlate with certain diagnostic criteria. The real problem comes in with declaring it professional opinion and using appeals to medical authority, as opposed to just your opinion. Which, I guess is a roundabout way of saying I don't think it should necessarily be outlawed, but I do find it ethically questionable and wrong to do it.

We have enough doctors out there claiming that their training in EM or Radiology is sufficient for them to declare COVID-19 a hoax, and the vaccine "dangerous", and we can see the results of this rhetoric in the ICUs and worst yet PICUs. I don't love psychiatrists out there blurring the terminology of "psychosis" and "ADHD" based solely on opinion or personal gain (these are already blurred enough).
 
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Seems we're veering off topic here. I don't think anyone thinks Goldwater could ever be considered illegal or worthy of police action. The discussion is about ethics and professional consequences.
 
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I am not an APA member, so I can. Don't know about you
I dropped my APA membership. But I believe the organization that put themselves out there as declaring it unethical could still be the one to label and identify these moments.

I don't know, make a webpage "goldwater violations" and they simply list the people and why and when they sent a registered letter off for such violations. Whether it has any real consequences or not.

But I do worry as established institutions are crumbling around us this is one hole in the wall that could be patched to help the integrity of medicine as a whole.
 
The APA can make recommendations about their own opinions about ethical practice but have no place in enforcing their recommendations on psychiatrists they neither license nor board certify.

Obviously, some here feel different and want psychiatrists who have political opinions different than their own strong opinions punished with violations the "Goldwater rule" which is not a law or legal rule, but a recommendation, and that alarms me. It's unfortunate if you don't like some psychiatrists opinions, but it is no crime, and the APA should stay out of these partisan fights, in my opinion. The APA should not become a weapon used to silence political enemies.
 
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She was dismissed because of her comments against Dershowitz, not Trump

Ultimately yes, but she had already received warnings from Yale to discontinue that behavior before she'd commented on Dershowitz. Idk what Yale would have done if she'd just continued to comment on Trump and no one else or even if Dershowitz hadn't directly written to Yale, but it was a series of behaviors that led to the dismissal.

Personally, I think its stupid to "diagnose" people without examining them, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with stating that a public figure's characteristics correlate with certain diagnostic criteria. The real problem comes in with declaring it professional opinion and using appeals to medical authority, as opposed to just your opinion. Which, I guess is a roundabout way of saying I don't think it should necessarily be outlawed, but I do find it ethically questionable and wrong to do it.

We have enough doctors out there claiming that their training in EM or Radiology is sufficient for them to declare COVID-19 a hoax, and the vaccine "dangerous", and we can see the results of this rhetoric in the ICUs and worst yet PICUs. I don't love psychiatrists out there blurring the terminology of "psychosis" and "ADHD" based solely on opinion or personal gain (these are already blurred enough).

This is my concern too. I would have had no problems if this had been a push for an evaluation d/t concerns regarding a diagnosis, and I think that when medical professionals are concerned regarding dangerousness of an individual that it would be unethical NOT to bring this up. Imo where it crosses the line is when they make a diagnosis and campaign to take action against an individual citing that diagnosis.


Obviously, some here feel different and want psychiatrists who have political opinions different than their own strong opinions punished with violations the "Goldwater rule" which is not a law or legal rule, but a recommendation, and that alarms me. It's unfortunate if you don't like some psychiatrists opinions, but it is no crime, and the APA should stay out of these partisan fights, in my opinion. The APA should not become a weapon used to silence political enemies.

Idk who you're specifically referring to, but I'd argue that what you're alarmed about is exactly what many in the field did to Trump and Clinton; waiving their credentials around as validations for the suggested diagnoses and campaigning to have them removed from office or an election based on those diagnoses. I agree that the APA along with any other medical or psychological organization should stay out of the political realm and not be weaponized. However, I also see it as dangerous to allow individual physicians or other professionals to use their titles to push governing bodies to take action based on partisan opinions.
 
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Nah, there's a significant difference between a joint statement regarding a specific diagnosis, it's treatment, and who is qualified to make such a diagnosis (the above) and making statements regarding an individual's or a demographic's diagnoses and what rights/opportunities they should have (statements regarding Trump, psychopathic problem of the white mind, claims that HRC or Biden have dementia, etc).

As the diagnosis applies to the second half of your sentence, I think that you might want to learn more about that diagnosis.

Especially the part where the FL autopsy lists excited delirium as the cause of death for ~50% of people who die in police custody.
 
Ultimately yes, but she had already received warnings from Yale to discontinue that behavior before she'd commented on Dershowitz. Idk what Yale would have done if she'd just continued to comment on Trump and no one else or even if Dershowitz hadn't directly written to Yale, but it was a series of behaviors that led to the dismissal.



This is my concern too. I would have had no problems if this had been a push for an evaluation d/t concerns regarding a diagnosis, and I think that when medical professionals are concerned regarding dangerousness of an individual that it would be unethical NOT to bring this up. Imo where it crosses the line is when they make a diagnosis and campaign to take action against an individual citing that diagnosis.




Idk who you're specifically referring to, but I'd argue that what you're alarmed about is exactly what many in the field did to Trump and Clinton; waiving their credentials around as validations for the suggested diagnoses and campaigning to have them removed from office or an election based on those diagnoses. I agree that the APA along with any other medical or psychological organization should stay out of the political realm and not be weaponized. However, I also see it as dangerous to allow individual physicians or other professionals to use their titles to push governing bodies to take action based on partisan opinions.
Yale was afraid of Dershowitz.
 
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As the diagnosis applies to the second half of your sentence, I think that you might want to learn more about that diagnosis.

Especially the part where the FL autopsy lists excited delirium as the cause of death for ~50% of people who die in police custody.

I'm well aware of the details of the supposed diagnosis including the inconsistent criterion as well as the inclusion in police manuals with laughable quantities of discrepancies and near undeniable internal corruption associated with it. I'm not sure how your statement regarding Florida applies unless you're suggesting that all individuals performing autopsies there are medical professionals, in which case they'd all meet the "who" criterion of my statement regardless of how questionable their actual diagnosis is.
 
The APA can make recommendations about their own opinions about ethical practice but have no place in enforcing their recommendations on psychiatrists they neither license nor board certify.

Obviously, some here feel different and want psychiatrists who have political opinions different than their own strong opinions punished with violations the "Goldwater rule" which is not a law or legal rule, but a recommendation, and that alarms me. It's unfortunate if you don't like some psychiatrists opinions, but it is no crime, and the APA should stay out of these partisan fights, in my opinion. The APA should not become a weapon used to silence political enemies.
That's the whole point is to keep Psychiatrists out of political commentary by pathologizing people - this transcends politics. We have now, and have had for the past few US presidents, ever increasing polarity. We don't need to be running our mouths on labeling public figures. Weather I agree or disagree, (due to my own political leanings) with the assessments doesn't matter.

I see your point about the APA and it needing to have limited oversight and reach. Okay, so shift this burden from the APA to state licensure. The state I'm in has a whole host of things and ranges of severity they discipline providers for. Add this to the list on the lowest of issues. A sternly worded letter from the state medical board reminding people to keep their mouth shut.
 
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However, I also see it as dangerous to allow individual physicians or other professionals to use their titles to push governing bodies to take action based on partisan opinions.

Is it based on partisan opinions though? Doesn't seem to be. Seems the opinions expressed were based on the subject's behavior in public and cross-referencing with known criteria. Doesn't sound like partisan opinions to me.
 
I see your point about the APA and it needing to have limited oversight and reach. Okay, so shift this burden from the APA to state licensure. The state I'm in has a whole host of things and ranges of severity they discipline providers for. Add this to the list on the lowest of issues. A sternly worded letter from the state medical board reminding people to keep their mouth shut.

So you want the medical board to police what physicians say under threat of board sanctions? Because they don't have enough power already?

Really, this all seems to be melodrama to me. So a few psychiatrists got on their soap box and said Trump is a narcissist. Pretty sure any 3 yo could have made the diagnosis. And same goes for any of the other diagnoses. The walls didn't crumble, the world didn't end. We don't forfeit our right to free speech just because we're in a field where we study human behavior.
 
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We do more than just study human behavior, we label abnormal behavior and treat it.
I value freedom, and believe it should reign supreme.
In the short term your right, meh, these snap shots in time don't mean anything and have little consequence.

My concerns are for the entropy of Medicine; things chipping away here. Chipping away there. Chipping away down low, up high, etc at the medical profession.
Mental health over the millennia has a disappointing history. We still carry the burden to be the flag bearers towards professionalism in medicine; as evidenced by an entire subspecialty - Forensics - and even a pinch of C/L that often finds it self on the ethics committees within hospitals.
We can and should do better. Ultimately I don't care who or what entity calls out the Psychiatrists for openly diagnosing public figures, but in some capacity there should be consequences.
 
We do more than just study human behavior, we label abnormal behavior and treat it.
I value freedom, and believe it should reign supreme.
In the short term your right, meh, these snap shots in time don't mean anything and have little consequence.

My concerns are for the entropy of Medicine; things chipping away here. Chipping away there. Chipping away down low, up high, etc at the medical profession.
Mental health over the millennia has a disappointing history. We still carry the burden to be the flag bearers towards professionalism in medicine; as evidenced by an entire subspecialty - Forensics - and even a pinch of C/L that often finds it self on the ethics committees within hospitals.
We can and should do better. Ultimately I don't care who or what entity calls out the Psychiatrists for openly diagnosing public figures, but in some capacity there should be consequences.

But how is it consequential? How is it unprofessional (and just because the APA says so is not an answer)? I'm not defending saying something like "so and so has GAD". We don't know that "so and so has GAD" without evaluating them unless "so and so" goes on television and details the symptoms that happen to match the criteria for GAD. Then it becomes clear that "so and so has GAD". So why is it unprofessional to say that? Replace GAD with NPD and does it then become bad? I haven't read Bandy's book so maybe what she said was more egregious, but I just don't see how she broke some big huge rule of professionalism by saying what's plainly obvious to most of the world, psychiatrist or not. I also have no problem with Yale terminating her as Yale's priority is their own reputation and brand and if they don't want their employees bringing negative attention to the institution, that's their right.
 
I'm always confused by what the APA would expect a clinician to find in a "personal evaluation" that would somehow mitigate or make inaccurate diagnostic criteria that are clearly demonstrated in public behavior. Concur that Yale can do whatever they want as a private institution. There are plenty of jobs out there. State medical boards, however, should not ever be regulating speech unless it is directly and clearly harmful to the public and even then, with the utmost of caution. Saying a public figure meets the criteria for NPD based on public behavior doesn't even come close to that bar.
 
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But how is it consequential? How is it unprofessional (and just because the APA says so is not an answer)? I'm not defending saying something like "so and so has GAD". We don't know that "so and so has GAD" without evaluating them unless "so and so" goes on television and details the symptoms that happen to match the criteria for GAD. Then it becomes clear that "so and so has GAD". So why is it unprofessional to say that? Replace GAD with NPD and does it then become bad? I haven't read Bandy's book so maybe what she said was more egregious, but I just don't see how she broke some big huge rule of professionalism by saying what's plainly obvious to most of the world, psychiatrist or not. I also have no problem with Yale terminating her as Yale's priority is their own reputation and brand and if they don't want their employees bringing negative attention to the institution, that's their right.

She went in front of congress with other professionals and stated that congress should consider him to be a sociopathic narcissist and that this should be a strong consideration for impeachment and during impeachment proceedings. She stated that because he was president "our survival as a species may be at stake". She stated that all his followers, while discussing Dershowitz's statements, all suffered from a shared psychosis, likened them to cult members, and actually gave recommendations on how to remove his supporters from his influence.

Please explain to me how this is NOT partisan and how there are no political motivations behind this. This is the exact kind of situation for why the Goldwater Rule exists. The initial suggestions by her and others at the initial conference were, imo, not unethical and appropriate. But when the APA shifted the goalposts of the Goldwater Rule Lee went to the extreme and 100% violated the rule to a point that I consider unethical and politically dangerous.

To be clear, I feel the same way about the people claiming that Hillary should have been removed from the 2016 election and when people claim Biden shouldn't be president d/t neurocognitive symptoms. Idc if people advocate to have formal evaluations done. Like I said, I think that if people have a legitimate concern (like many did with Trump), that it's unethical to not suggest this. However, claiming to be able to "assess" someone by videos of their speeches and news clips sets a very dangerous precedent, and if we can do that then we need to be examining a very large percentage of individuals in our federal government.
 
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She went in front of congress with other professionals and stated that congress should consider him to be a sociopathic narcissist and that this should be a strong consideration for impeachment and during impeachment proceedings. She stated that because he was president "our survival as a species may be at stake". She stated that all his followers, while discussing Dershowitz's statements, all suffered from a shared psychosis, likened them to cult members, and actually gave recommendations on how to remove his supporters from his influence.

Please explain to me how this is NOT partisan and how there are no political motivations behind this. This is the exact kind of situation for why the Goldwater Rule exists. The initial suggestions by her and others at the initial conference were, imo, not unethical and appropriate. But when the APA shifted the goalposts of the Goldwater Rule Lee went to the extreme and 100% violated the rule to a point that I consider unethical and politically dangerous.

To be clear, I feel the same way about the people claiming that Hillary should have been removed from the 2016 election and when people claim Biden shouldn't be president d/t neurocognitive symptoms. Idc if people advocate to have formal evaluations done. Like I said, I think that if people have a legitimate concern (like many did with Trump), that it's unethical to not suggest this. However, claiming to be able to "assess" someone by videos of their speeches and news clips sets a very dangerous precedent, and if we can do that then we need to be examining a very large percentage of individuals in our federal government.

I'm going to be very careful to save the politics for SPF. I don't agree with taking it to Congress or some of the things you're telling me she did. If she felt strongly about it, she should have just voiced her concerns as a psychiatrist with very real symptoms that were on full public display, but where I think it went too far was testifying in Congress and asking for it to be taken account during impeachment (though, as I said above, as a forensic psychiatrist, doesn't she do this literally every day? And isn't it always 100% kosher? So what's the difference here? Or am I not understanding the real work in forensics/expert testimony cases?). (I also think QAnon is a cult and a shared delusion and I think that's probably obvious to most psychiatrists. But I'll save that rant for a more appropriate forum.)

However, the Goldwater rule is much more simple and that's what I'm objecting to. I think it's wrong to silence doctors, unless they are spouting misinformation.
 
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However, the Goldwater rule is much more simple and that's what I'm objecting to. I think it's wrong to silence doctors, unless they are spouting misinformation.

I don't disagree completely. As I said, I do think we have an obligation to voice serious concerns or even advocate for further formal evaluations when we recognize signs that raise significant concerns regarding mental health. I also don't agree with the "update"/extension made to the Goldwater Rule after the initial conference she organized and the undoubted role politics played in that decision. I do agree with the Goldwater Rule's initial premise that we should not be making diagnoses on political or prominent figures without a formal evaluation. I don't see that as silencing doctors, but rather ensuring a minimal standard for assessments being upheld.

Not trying to start a specific political debate, but I do think the yes/no answer to the question "Was there a political motivation behind her and others' statements/testimonies?" is appropriate for this thread (outside the SPF forums). Given what is public knowledge of Ms. Lee, specifically her extensive work on prison reform and advocacy for individuals incarcerated (who have a significantly higher rate of ASPD and narcissism), I don't think I could reasonably believe that her commentary on specific individuals who she claims to be antisocial or psychotic (Trump, Dershowitz) or large groups (diagnosing Trump supporters with folie a Millions) is unbiased and without strong political motivations. Imo, that's a clear violation of the initial intent of the Goldwater Rule and a solid ethical argument to respect the initial intent of that Rule.
 
I do agree with the Goldwater Rule's initial premise that we should not be making diagnoses on political or prominent figures without a formal evaluation. I don't see that as silencing doctors, but rather ensuring a minimal standard for assessments being upheld.

I mean, let's call it "not politicizing mental illness" and all (and there's a case to be made for that), but it's rubbish that we're accepting this rule on the basis of "professionalism" or "minimal standard for assessments being upheld". That's hogwash.

Given what is public knowledge of Ms. Lee, specifically her extensive work on prison reform and advocacy for individuals incarcerated (who have a significantly higher rate of ASPD and narcissism), I don't think I could reasonably believe that her commentary on specific individuals who she claims to be antisocial or psychotic (Trump, Dershowitz) or large groups (diagnosing Trump supporters with folie a Millions) is unbiased and without strong political motivations

Why? Do you think an incarcerated individual with narcissism is equivalent to the president with narcissism? I've asked this twice already and it's been met with radio silence, so I'll ask for a third time. How is this different than her usual work in forensic psychiatry?

Imo, that's a clear violation of the initial intent of the Goldwater Rule and a solid ethical argument to respect the initial intent of that Rule

Why? Who decided the initial rule was ethical in the first place?
 
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Forensic Psychiatrists are retained by vested parties typically for a legal reason. Also during the forensic evaluations the person of interest is aware that an evaluation is taking place and have the right to not participate.

A public person, isn't aware of the evaluation, didn't get the chance to not participate, nor has any vested interest in being evaluated. Perhaps gramps is changing his will/estate and kids/spouse/mistress are concerned they won't get their fair share, and pursue an evaluation? Or person who is incarcerated has legal counsel who believes their client is under duress of XYZ and also unable to participate in their own defense and requests an evaluation?
 
Forensic Psychiatrists are retained by vested parties typically for a legal reason. Also during the forensic evaluations the person of interest is aware that an evaluation is taking place and have the right to not participate.

A public person, isn't aware of the evaluation, didn't get the chance to not participate, nor has any vested interest in being evaluated. Perhaps gramps is changing his will/estate and kids/spouse/mistress are concerned they won't get their fair share, and pursue an evaluation? Or person who is incarcerated has legal counsel who believes their client is under duress of XYZ and also unable to participate in their own defense and requests an evaluation?

What about the ones in which they're hired for expert testimony and most certainly don't examine the patient? They give testimony based on symptoms/syndrome? Not exactly assigning a diagnosis (I assume) but definitely giving expert opinion.
 
Forensic Psychiatrists are retained by vested parties typically for a legal reason. Also during the forensic evaluations the person of interest is aware that an evaluation is taking place and have the right to not participate.
In many cases forensic examinees do not have the right to refuse examination. For example, when competency evaluations are order by the court, the person does not typically have the right (and may not be competent to) refuse. Even in civil cases, a court can order a motion to compel a mental examination over the objections of the plaintiff.

Whether public figures have the right to go about their lives without psychiatric intrusion is an open question. Public figures do not have the same rights to privacy as other individuals. Political figures even less so. The CIA has used psychiatric expertise for over 40 years and the political figures under examination are not aware that they are being psychoanalyzed.
 
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The Goldwater rule isn't that you have made an in-person evaluation of the person. Merely, that you have conducted an examination (many of my examinations are based on record review alone) and have consent to do so. The code states: "However, it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement." This is the key issue. While public figures have fewer rights to privacy than other individuals, the APA's position is that like any other medical procedure, it is unethical to perform a psychiatric diagnostic evaluation and disclose the results of that examination to the public without the person's consent. Personally, I don't agree with this and no other specialty prohibits their physicians from diagnosing public figures (one of the professional societies I am a member of actually released a statement diagnosing people by video in the public interest). Indeed, no other mental health professional society prohibits its members from diagnosing public figures. The idea that it is unethical is ludicrous. The more compelling reason to advise against diagnoses and formulations of public figures is it can prove embarrassing for the profession. The number of psychiatrists that incorrectly diagnosed Trump with NPD (any forensic psychiatrist worth their salt would know the correct diagnosis) was cringeworthy, for example. If you read the original Fact magazine article about Goldwater, the psychiatrists commenting make psychiatry seem like a joke. What is more of a joke, is that some psychiatrists believe the public is interested in what they have to say. They don't, unless it suits their own agenda.

Most psychiatrists who would fall foul of this rule are not APA members and actually I know of several who resigned their APA membership in order to avoid censure by the Ethics committee (though I don't believe the ethics committee actually censures anyone). Bandy Lee is not an APA member and thus is not required to adhere to the Goldwater rule. Psychiatric formulations of political leaders have been used by the CIA and Presidents since the 1970s to great effect as well.

Bandy Lee was not "terminated" from Yale in any true sense, as she was not an employee. She had a voluntary (i.e. unpaid) assistant clinical professor appointment and thus did not enjoy the same academic freedoms and due process rights that a true faculty member would. Though that is not stopping her from suing them arguing violation of her rights to free speech, breach of contract, and negligent misrepresentation by not allowing her academic freedom. She is arguing that all the perks she got would cost thousands, and she made a lot of money off her affiliation with Yale (she says most of her income), even though Yale paid her nothing itself. It will be interesting to see if the lawsuit goes anywhere. I bet they weren't expecting her to sue them. They were probably more worried they would be sued by Dershowitz if they didn't cut ties with Lee.
 
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The Goldwater rule isn't that you have made an in-person evaluation of the person. Merely, that you have conducted an examination (many of my examinations are based on record review alone) and have consent to do so. The code states: "However, it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement." This is the key issue. While public figures have fewer rights to privacy than other individuals, the APA's position is that like any other medical procedure, it is unethical to perform a psychiatric diagnostic evaluation and disclose the results of that examination to the public without the person's consent. Personally, I don't agree with this and no other specialty prohibits their physicians from diagnosing public figures (one of the professional societies I am a member of actually released a statement diagnosing people by video in the public interest). Indeed, no other mental health professional society prohibits its members from diagnosing public figures. The idea that it is unethical is ludicrous. The more compelling reason to advise against diagnoses and formulations of public figures is it can prove embarrassing for the profession. The number of psychiatrists that incorrectly diagnosed Trump with NPD (any forensic psychiatrist worth their salt would know the correct diagnosis) was cringeworthy, for example. If you read the original Fact magazine article about Goldwater, the psychiatrists commenting make psychiatry seem like a joke. What is more of a joke, is that some psychiatrists believe the public is interested in what they have to say. They don't, unless it suits their own agenda.

Most psychiatrists who would fall foul of this rule are not APA members and actually I know of several who resigned their APA membership in order to avoid censure by the Ethics committee (though I don't believe the ethics committee actually censures anyone). Bandy Lee is not an APA member and thus is not required to adhere to the Goldwater rule. Psychiatric formulations of political leaders have been used by the CIA and Presidents since the 1970s to great effect as well.

Bandy Lee was not "terminated" from Yale in any true sense, as she was not an employee. She had a voluntary (i.e. unpaid) assistant clinical professor appointment and thus did not enjoy the same academic freedoms and due process rights that a true faculty member would. Though that is not stopping her from suing them arguing violation of her rights to free speech, breach of contract, and negligent misrepresentation by not allowing her academic freedom. She is arguing that all the perks she got would cost thousands, and she made a lot of money off her affiliation with Yale (she says most of her income), even though Yale paid her nothing itself. It will be interesting to see if the lawsuit goes anywhere. I bet they weren't expecting her to sue them. They were probably more worried they would be sued by Dershowitz if they didn't cut ties with Lee.

I'm curious, you don't think Trump meets criteria for NPD? I haven't diagnosed him with such, but I'd be amazed that he doesn't meet criteria. What am I missing (if that isn't against your personal ethics on the subject of evaluating someone without permission)?
 
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What about the ones in which they're hired for expert testimony and most certainly don't examine the patient? They give testimony based on symptoms/syndrome? Not exactly assigning a diagnosis (I assume) but definitely giving expert opinion.

Are they giving testimony on facts of diagnoses and treatment modalities or their opinion of the patient? I'd call the latter unethical and the former irrelevant to the discussion. Those are also 2 very different situations. From everyone I've talked to, you don't give opinions on a patient in court unless you've examined them and you specify the form of examination or observation from which you give your testimony (direct observation, chart review, police documents, etc). Splik or others with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's what I've been taught by those with forensics experience I've learned from.
 
Are they giving testimony on facts of diagnoses and treatment modalities or their opinion of the patient?

As I said I didn't follow Bandy Lee so I have no idea what she was or wasn't doing or saying. I only heard the fall out.

I'd call the latter unethical and the former irrelevant to the discussion

Why do you think forensic psychiatrists are giving testimony on facts of diagnoses as opposed to facts that point to diagnoses? I think you and I have very different ideas of what a lot of expert testimony is. In many cases, they never meet with the patient and the patient may not even have a diagnosis. So I don't know what you're talking about?

Those are also 2 very different situations. From everyone I've talked to, you don't give opinions on a patient in court unless you've examined them and you specify the form of examination or observation from which you give your testimony (direct observation, chart review, police documents, etc)

I don't know the ins and outs so you could be right, but I know there are people giving expert testimony based on chart review. That's why I said "They give testimony based on symptoms/syndrome? Not exactly assigning a diagnosis (I assume) but definitely giving expert opinion".
 
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I don't know the ins and outs so you could be right, but I know there are people giving expert testimony based on chart review. That's why I said "They give testimony based on symptoms/syndrome? Not exactly assigning a diagnosis (I assume) but definitely giving expert opinion".

It's common to be retained for chart review and opinion based solely on that. You always specify clearly in your report and/or your testimony that you have not personally evaluated the individual and all of the sources that you reviewed to render your opinion.
 
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Eh, Charles Krauthammer the columnist was a trained psychiatrist although he never practiced, and he diagnosed people right and left in his columns without any significant pushback, so the rule doesn't mean all that much, IMO. I remember columns diagnosing Al Gore, Anita Hill, and the Donald with psych disorders, and I'm sure there were many more, this is just from memory.

Article about Goldwater Rule in light of You Know Who:
 
A high schooler can tell you Trump is a textbook narcissist. You don’t need a MH professional. As to the denigration of medicine for not commenting on it. Are you living under a rock OP? Did you not see all the major journal editorials?
 
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A high schooler can tell you Trump is a textbook narcissist. You don’t need a MH professional.
This kind of talk has important forensic implications, and some psychiatrists seem a little too comfortable with it.
The Goldwater rule I suppose is an ethical consideration, but it brings up questions about broader truths and the social meaning of mental illness.
First of all, there’s a 25th amendment to the constitution that stipulates the medical examination and disability procedures (how to invoke basically a fitness for duty eval) regarding a sitting president. No one needs Joe Armchair MD a psychiatrist in Oklahoma to call in to Washington and ask “have you considered that the president might have a major neuro cognitive disorder? I was watching his speech on CNN and…” There is a medical staff in the White House. Now whether or not they are impartial is another question, but they’re there.

On a somewhat separate note, it’s pretty stupid to announce that we’ve easily diagnosed someone after having watched news clips of them. I mean Trump of all people was constantly acting. Who’s to say that was “the real” him? I understand it probably was, but we don’t know that. And if a diagnosis can be thrown around, one that is supposed to take extensive psychiatric training to make, what is that diagnosis? Can anyone go to the DSM, read the criteria, and say “I or they or whoever has this?” It harkens back to Bob Spitzer and the DSM III when he was addressing the APA saying “Are clinicians even necessary anymore?” He meant that any untrained rater could simply follow an algorithm to make a diagnosis.

It’s also foolish to make a diagnosis like a personality disorder based on limited information about a person (or one or two evals). I will say with Trump we had whole books about his life and people that could talk about his past, so some of those trends could have been clearer. But don’t sell yourself short…when you are considering a personality disorder as a diagnosis, there’s a whole differential and criterion list that should be considered in detail (have these criteria all shown themselves persistently in several settings to impair social/occupational functioning or cause clinically significant distress etc).
I’d be curious to hear from splik and others forensically trained how personality disorders are legally regarded.
 
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This kind of talk has important forensic implications, and some psychiatrists seem a little too comfortable with it.
The Goldwater rule I suppose is an ethical consideration, but it brings up questions about broader truths and the social meaning of mental illness.
First of all, there’s a 25th amendment to the constitution that stipulates the medical examination and disability procedures (how to invoke basically a fitness for duty eval) regarding a sitting president. No one needs Joe Armchair MD a psychiatrist in Oklahoma to call in to Washington and ask “have you considered that the president might have a major neuro cognitive disorder? I was watching his speech on CNN and…” There is a medical staff in the White House. Now whether or not they are impartial is another question, but they’re there.

On a somewhat separate note, it’s pretty stupid to announce that we’ve easily diagnosed someone after having watched news clips of them. I mean Trump of all people was constantly acting. Who’s to say that was “the real” him? I understand it probably was, but we don’t know that. And if a diagnosis can be thrown around, one that is supposed to take extensive psychiatric training to make, what is that diagnosis? Can anyone go to the DSM, read the criteria, and say “I or they or whoever has this?” It harkens back to Bob Spitzer and the DSM III when he was addressing the APA saying “Are clinicians even necessary anymore?” He meant that any untrained rater could simply follow an algorithm to make a diagnosis.

It’s also foolish to make a diagnosis like a personality disorder based on limited information about a person (or one or two evals). I will say with Trump we had whole books about his life and people that could talk about his past, so some of those trends could have been clearer. But don’t sell yourself short…when you are considering a personality disorder as a diagnosis, there’s a whole differential and criterion list that should be considered in detail (have these criteria all shown themselves persistently in several settings to impair social/occupational functioning or cause clinically significant distress etc).
I’d be curious to hear from splik and others forensically trained how personality disorders are legally regarded.
Huh? You make no sense. To your first point:


To Trump acting? What benefit would anyone have from acting like a narcissist? See Matt Gaetz for an example of someone acting like a narcissist.

On the same topic, It was actually amazing to see narcissistic injury on the largest scale being spewed out every 10 minutes on Twitter when dude lost. You cant fake that kind of pathological response.
 
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Huh? You make no sense. To your first point:


To Trump acting? What benefit would anyone have from acting like a narcissist? See Matt Gaetz for an example of someone acting like a narcissist.

On the same topic, It was actually amazing to see narcissistic injury on the largest scale being spewed out every 10 minutes on Twitter when dude lost. You cant fake that kind of pathological response.
"You make no sense" doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. But I'd like to discuss further if you want to engage seriously.

As far as Trump's "schtick," one could argue it was the fundamental and sole method by which he effected anything. He sure as hell didn't have new ideas or responsible leadership capabilities. Whether it was an act or not, he rode it pretty far.

Unfortunately none of us require celebrity examples of narcissism seeing as most of us are practicing psychiatry.
 
Has anyone considered "New Yorker" as a differential diagnosis?
 
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