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That time of year!
OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's Guide to the Application Process (2022 edition)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 512, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 511 or less and/or a GPA of <3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of <504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.
Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.
*Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the interview table (or Zoom electrons) and smack you upside the head!
*To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.
*If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.
*DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.
*While there are a few DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.
*If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So, like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.
*To that end, if your MCAT score is <500, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.
* If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it will still be an uphill battle for DO grads for tippy top academic and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Vascular Surgery.
BUT, since the merger, DO grads have been matching into better and better programs. As of this writing, some 25% of Derm Program Directors will often consider inviting and ranking DO grads. This number was down in the single digits just a few years ago.
The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2021, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021-PD-Survey-Report-for-WWW.pdf
Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware that some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.
o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.
o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.
o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Brand new DO schools (those that have yet to graduation a Class) are to be avoided if at all possible until they at least graduate a class. It takes time for the Faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum; they have limited clinical rotation sites [it takes time to build these!], the degree of oversight of clinical training will be weak; the schools are unlikely to have resources for academically struggling students or those with mental health needs; lastly their grads will be unknown products to residency program directors
If needed, if you are good at self-learning, and have a pioneer’s mentality, you might be able to handle a new school. But again, go in eye’s open.
Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.
Currently, there are several DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:
Firstly, those that are for profit schools are more interested in the needs of their shareholders than their students.
ARCOM: Required mandatory lecture attendance during the COVID pandemic! Lecturers were outside speakers and could have taught via Zoom.
And now they’re on heightened monitoring for accreditation: Accreditation Decisions for Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine
LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology. In the midst of the COVID19 pandemic, Liberty president Jerry Falwell Jr insisted that the campus stay open! This was in violation of state lawBlack Liberty University alums rebuke Jerry Falwell after blackface tweet
And read this, while you’re at it:
https://slate.com/culture/2020/08/l...football-sports.amp?__twitter_impression=true
From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.
LMU: Weak academics and the administration of the parent body fired a dean for supporting social justice and racial equality.Their position is: On August 14th (2020), an Associate Dean of Students emailed new student policy that stated “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."
BCOM: Also this: granted Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine
ICOM: Not recommended due to the apparent dishonesty they had in setting up their school that poisoned the relations with hospitals in Idaho and/or the Idaho Medical Association. In addition, most of their rotation sites are very far away from the school. This raises the risk that the rotations are not adequately supervised, and preceptors are not fully trained in teaching. And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!
RVU: I find for profit schools to be distasteful to medical education, but this is outright disgusting behavior:
forums.studentdoctor.net
.
OK, it's app season, and I've already addressed things that will be common concerns to any med school applicant (MD or DO). See this thread:
Goro's Guide to the Application Process (2022 edition)
First off, should you apply to DO schools? I feel that if you have a GPA of 3.5 or higher, AND an MCAT of 512, then it’s worth trying an MD only cycle.
IF you have an MCAT of 511 or less and/or a GPA of <3.5, then try MD + DO.
IF you have an MCAT of <504, and/or GPA of < 3.4 (without a steep rising GPA trend or any postbac/SMP classes, then go DO only. Your mileage may vary if you live in a lucky state like MS, ND, NM, AL, etc.
Here I'd like to touch on things for you DO candidates specifically.
*Do your homework. We expect you to know about osteopathy, and please, do better than quoting wikipedia at us. And if any of you say "they look at the whole person" or, “your hands are your tools” one more time, I'm going to reach across the interview table (or Zoom electrons) and smack you upside the head!
*To that end, find a DO to shadow! This is especially imperative if you live within driving distance of a DO school or live in areas of the country which are relatively DO-rich, like the mid-west or the east coast.
*If you've ever been on the receiving end of OMM/OMT, make sure you let us know about it in your app.
*DO does not always = MD in terms of how doctors approach a clinical problem. So be sure to shadow both MDs and DOs, if at all possible. You should be able to articulate how they're similar, and how they differ.
*While there are a few DO schools that require a DO LOR, lacking one will not kill you at those schools (like mine) that don't require one. We know that there are some areas where there are fewer DOs, and a gazillion pre-meds are pestering them for LORs, so it's hard to get them. BUT having a DO LOR always helps! Shows you've gone the extra mile. BTW, people who have two DO LORs are rare, and we give them extra credit.
*If you look at the numbers, there are DO schools that have stats for matriculants that are on par with those of some MD schools and even exceed some state MD schools, like U AR or U KS. So, like MD schools, DO schools will expect you to have a minimum standard, but they're more willing to accept a high GPA + low MCAT or a high MCAT + low GPA applicant. By "low", I mean a floor of 3.0 for GPA, and MCAT of ~500.
*To that end, if your MCAT score is <500, I strongly suggest a retake. If your GPA is <3.0, I suggest either aceing a post-bac, or SMP.
* If you're hesitant to apply because of fears that you won't get that coveted ultra-competitive residency, well, that’s a valid concern. With the merger of AOA and ACGME residencies, it will still be an uphill battle for DO grads for tippy top academic and/or the uber-residencies like Neurosurgery or Vascular Surgery.
BUT, since the merger, DO grads have been matching into better and better programs. As of this writing, some 25% of Derm Program Directors will often consider inviting and ranking DO grads. This number was down in the single digits just a few years ago.
The best source to give you an idea of how competitive different fields are can be seen in the annual NRMP Program Director’s survey. For 2021, see: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021-PD-Survey-Report-for-WWW.pdf
Does this mean that you’re limited to Peds or Family Medicine? No, but just approach this process eyes open, and be aware that some fields are more DO-friendly than others. Let’s put this another way: knowing that the majority of DO grads go into Primary Care, are you OK with that being your most likely career path???? But please do not be surprised that the mission of the AOA is to train more Primary Care doctors.
o Most MD schools are in urban areas. Not so for a number of DO schools. So think carefully about where a school is. I don't believe that the areas around Pikesville or LUCOM will be happy places for gay or minority students.
o If you'd rather be at an MD school, and you're applying to both, consider NOW whether you'd rather be at a DO school, or an MD one. We've certainly had people turn us down for the nearby MD school, and vice-versa. Every year we see threads entitled “Accepted at DO but on MD waitlist. Should I re-apply?” I despise these threads. Self-hating DOs are real, and I don’t want them as students.
o When you go on interviews, the most important question you can ask is of the students who attend there: "why did you choose this school?"
Brand new DO schools (those that have yet to graduation a Class) are to be avoided if at all possible until they at least graduate a class. It takes time for the Faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum; they have limited clinical rotation sites [it takes time to build these!], the degree of oversight of clinical training will be weak; the schools are unlikely to have resources for academically struggling students or those with mental health needs; lastly their grads will be unknown products to residency program directors
If needed, if you are good at self-learning, and have a pioneer’s mentality, you might be able to handle a new school. But again, go in eye’s open.
Some valuable advice fromgrapefruit17 in this thread:
Factors that matter when choosing a DO school.
Currently, there are several DO schools I can’t recommend. Here’s why:
Firstly, those that are for profit schools are more interested in the needs of their shareholders than their students.
ARCOM: Required mandatory lecture attendance during the COVID pandemic! Lecturers were outside speakers and could have taught via Zoom.
And now they’re on heightened monitoring for accreditation: Accreditation Decisions for Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine
LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology. In the midst of the COVID19 pandemic, Liberty president Jerry Falwell Jr insisted that the campus stay open! This was in violation of state lawBlack Liberty University alums rebuke Jerry Falwell after blackface tweet
And read this, while you’re at it:
https://slate.com/culture/2020/08/l...football-sports.amp?__twitter_impression=true
From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.
LMU: Weak academics and the administration of the parent body fired a dean for supporting social justice and racial equality.Their position is: On August 14th (2020), an Associate Dean of Students emailed new student policy that stated “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."
BCOM: Also this: granted Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine
ICOM: Not recommended due to the apparent dishonesty they had in setting up their school that poisoned the relations with hospitals in Idaho and/or the Idaho Medical Association. In addition, most of their rotation sites are very far away from the school. This raises the risk that the rotations are not adequately supervised, and preceptors are not fully trained in teaching. And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!
RVU: I find for profit schools to be distasteful to medical education, but this is outright disgusting behavior:
No matter what RVU tells you, don’t apply Caribbean
With all due respect to those attending and applying to RVU, because it has a solid track record academically, I believe it’s unethical for the school to give leads to Caribbean programs. Though St George seems to be one of the better ones, there are still high attrition rates making it a risky...
forums.studentdoctor.net
.
