Grades for Residencies

[sweetcalie08]

Hey all!

I tried doing a search for this, but the search function wasn't working at the time, so please bear with me.

I'm just wondering how important grades are for getting pharmacy residencies. I keep hearing "C=PharmD" but if you want a residency you're going to need to keep the grades up. I mean, if someone gets 1-2 C's per semester in pharmacy school, would their chances be pretty slim? Or, let's say a pharmacy GPA between 3.0 and 3.5 (which would not exceptional but would not really be bad either)? Man, I thought Intro to Pharm Care would be my easy class, but I had a lot going on this week and barely passed my midterm! Now I have no chance for an A, and I'm going have to work my butt off for the final in order to get a B...even though I'll have 5-6 other finals that week to worry about. And I really wanted to be a clinical pharmacist...

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[dontworry]

Im curious about this as well. I didnt have the best start with grades and I am concerned that my GPA will be low when I graduate. I dont think there are many students doing a residency currently here on SDN and I havent really seen any suggested criteria for a residency. Though I have a ways to go till I graduate, its a thought that I have, and hopefully I can raise my GPA by then. I would probably also pursue clinical pharmacy, Im sure there is hope for us.

 

[dgroulx]

There are only a handful of students that make A's all through pharmacy school. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I believe that residencies go unfilled every year.

 

[pinkyrx]

I think it really depends on the specific residency you are interested in. Like Dana mentioned there are several residencies (from what I've heard) that go unfilled each year. They are always telling us that they are more concerned with you be a well rounded student than having straight A's. I think leadership experience and being active in student organizations while maintaining relatively decent grades will get you a long way.

 

[LVPharm]

This press release from ASHP regarding the popularity of pharmacy practice residencies may offer you some background:

http://www.ashp.org/news/ShowArticle.cfm?&id=5074

At least at our school, everyone who wanted a residency position last year got one...and we don't have grades at USN. The competition really sets in if you are applying to a more coveted, prestigious residency at some place like Stanford in Palo Alto. Otherwise, even if you don't match the first time around, the chances are still good that you will find an unmatched position. From what I hear, grades are somewhat important, but not as much as your "character" as determined by interview/application, your LORs, and any supporting documents you send in...some residencies want a piece of scientific writing, submitted for grading at your school like a drug monograph/drug info assignment. They also look at your curriculum vitae and letter of intent/interest. Showing up at ASHP midyear, introducing yourself to residency coordinators/directors, and asking good questions can only help.

Information on the residency matching program:

http://www.ashp.org/directories/residency/matchtips.cfm

ASHP: "Seeking A Residency" http://www.ashp.org/rtp/Seeking/index.cfm

Hope this helps. I'm going through the initial process of exploring residency programs (I'm in my last year). I'm going to ASHP midyear in December to go through the "residency showcase" and check programs out.

 

[Lexian]

This press release from ASHP regarding the popularity of pharmacy practice residencies may offer you some background:

http://www.ashp.org/news/ShowArticle.cfm?&id=5074

At least at our school, everyone who wanted a residency position last year got one...and we don't have grades at USN. The competition really sets in if you are applying to a more coveted, prestigious residency at some place like Stanford in Palo Alto. Otherwise, even if you don't match the first time around, the chances are still good that you will find an unmatched position. From what I hear, grades are somewhat important, but not as much as your "character" as determined by interview/application, your LORs, and any supporting documents you send in...some residencies want a piece of scientific writing, submitted for grading at your school like a drug monograph/drug info assignment. They also look at your curriculum vitae and letter of intent or interest. Showing up at ASHP midyear, introducing yourself to residency coordinators/directors, and asking good questions can only help.

Information on the residency matching program:

http://www.ashp.org/directories/residency/matchtips.cfm

ASHP: "Seeking A Residency" http://www.ashp.org/rtp/Seeking/index.cfm

Hope this helps. I'm going through the initial process of exploring residency programs (I'm in my last year). I'm going to ASHP midyear in December to go through the "residency showcase" and check programs out.

I have heard pretty much the same thing. I was at a local Phi Delta Chi at UCSF meeting where a few graduates came back to talk about their experiences, and generally grades are a factor when competing for the top residencies. If you want to get a residency, you will get one, but it might not be your first choice. One of the graduates was a UCSF grad who wound up getting matched at Stanford for a speciality residency in Pediatrics and is now working there. She said her GPA (3.5 I believe) was very good, and another student who graduated from Rutgers and was doing his general residency at UCSF Medical Center currently said his GPA was competitive as well.

I also think character and the interview are very important parts of the decision process. If they don't think you will "fit" in their system, they will not take you. The graduates pretty much echoed the sentiments by LVPharm.

I'm only a first year pharm student but I am definitely considering a residency (speciality or general I don't know yet). My impression is that while a high GPA may not be explicitly required, if you're applying to a general residency program and you've got C's or D's in Therapeutics, Pharmacology or any of your other clinical courses (the meat and potatoes of most curriculum I think), the doesn't speak much for your aptitude in the clinical setting.

I'm really interested in hearing what other people think about this, especially those applying to residencies this year and those who are currently in a residency program. Any info would be great, especially if I'm completely off base in my impression of the process.

 

[dgroulx]

I'm only a first year pharm student but I am definitely considering a residency (speciality or general I don't know yet). My impression is that while a high GPA may not be explicitly required, if you're applying to a general residency program and you've got C's or D's in Therapeutics, Pharmacology or any of your other clinical courses (the meat and potatoes of most curriculum I think), the doesn't speak much for your aptitude in the clinical setting.

The average exam grade for my pharmacology exam earlier this week was a D. This includes students who are retaking the class because they got a D or an F last year. Less than 5% of the students last year received an A in this class. This doesn't mean that other students wouldn't be good in a clinical setting. It means that the exams are written to be deliberately difficult. Sometimes it seems like UF loves to increase their attrition rate.

 

[jplaster]

Just wondering what are the advantages of residency? Does this allow pharmacists to specialize?

 

[tupac_don]

Hey all!

I tried doing a search for this, but the search function wasn't working at the time, so please bear with me.

I'm just wondering how important grades are for getting pharmacy residencies. I keep hearing "C=PharmD" but if you want a residency you're going to need to keep the grades up. I mean, if someone gets 1-2 C's per semester in pharmacy school, would their chances be pretty slim? Or, let's say a pharmacy GPA between 3.0 and 3.5 (which would not exceptional but would not really be bad either)? Man, I thought Intro to Pharm Care would be my easy class, but I had a lot going on this week and barely passed my midterm! Now I have no chance for an A, and I'm going have to work my butt off for the final in order to get a B...even though I'll have 5-6 other finals that week to worry about. And I really wanted to be a clinical pharmacist...

Surprisingly, grades are not that important for getting a residency. If you want a top residency or at a specific place, it might be tougher if you don't have great grades. However, just getting a residency, u will be fine with a B avg. (3.0), some residencies will even take people with a C avg. But if you have C's your chances may be hurt somewhat but you can still get a residency. With a B avg you would be reasonably competitive for most residencies. Honestly for a residency, your personality, ability to be a hardworker and good letters of reference are much more important than grades. Also it is not very competitive in terms that it really only people who want to know more do it. You don't really get more money doing it. Actually you are taking a pay cut. My teachers told me that having good grades does not necessarily mean that you will be an excellent resident. They are more interested to see that you are a hardworker who tries hard and gets stuff done.

The advantages of doing a residency include:
-doing more of a clincial job, rounding wiht the medical team
-making and preparing guidelines
-doing research and projects
-obtaining more knowledge
-become more proficient clinically
-greater diversity of practice settings you can pursue (eg. academia, hospital, LTCF consultant, drug company)
-allows you to teach, allows you to do clinical research, although for research a fellowhsip is better

Disadvantages:
-take a pay cut (get about $30,000-40 per year)
-To get a specialist position at most places have to do a general residency + a specialty residency (so 2 years of training)
-Specialists do more work in terms of projects, assignments and grading students than an hourly pharmacist
-salaried job
-more work no increase in pay
-despite residency training, you are still auxillary stuff next to a physician
-clinical duties are limited to pharmacokinetics, anticoagulation and PO vs IV issues, pricing

 

[lord999]

Anecdoctally, grades only get to the interview. It's the LOR, associations (it pays sometimes to be a PDX, KP/KE), and definitely the interview that clinches the position.

Pharmacy is still an insular network, and having some of your clinical faculty put in a good word for you goes a lot farther than a 4.0 GPA.

That being said, carrying such a GPA doesn't hurt either.

 

[Lexian]

The average exam grade for my pharmacology exam earlier this week was a D. This includes students who are retaking the class because they got a D or an F last year. Less than 5% of the students last year received an A in this class. This doesn't mean that other students wouldn't be good in a clinical setting. It means that the exams are written to be deliberately difficult. Sometimes it seems like UF loves to increase their attrition rate.

I didn't mean to say that students who get C's in those courses would not make good clinicians. In fact, I can recall several of our professors who admitted to not "acing" their CP courses but going on and becoming very good clinical pharmacists. I meant that from the perspective of the residency directors, C's and D's would not be a big push for you. But as Lord999 pointed out, while a good GPA is not required it would certainly help, especially at a very competitive site. Sorry if I was being too unclear, I definitely understand what you're saying.

Best of luck in those classes. Hopefully you can be one of the 5%

 

[TotalKayOs]

upon completion of a residency does the salary of a pharmacist increase?

 

[kwakster928]

upon completion of a residency does the salary of a pharmacist increase?

you can demand it but i doubt it.

you will be making less than the staff pharmacist since they go hourly but you are salaried plus you will have more stuff to do. it sucks but that's way it is. if you want to make money go to retail.

 

[Lexian]

you can demand it but i doubt it.

you will be making less than the staff pharmacist since they go hourly but you are salaried plus you will have more stuff to do. it sucks but that's way it is. if you want to make money go to retail.

Well, it's true that as a pharmacy resident you will not be making much and you will be working a lot, but I think TotalKay0s was asking once you finish your residency do you tend to make more money as a pharmacist.

I'm not sure if you will be necessarily be making more money, but I think it will be comparable to the retail setting. Hospital positions have been notorious for being paid much less than their retail counterparts, but several pharmacists that recently finished their residencies and are now working have told me that the gap between the two in terms of salary is closing. I spoke to one UCSF grad who did a one year residency in Pediatrics at Stanford and is two years removed from that residency and is making $60/hour working at the same hospital. I'm not saying that's going to be the norm, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take a huge paycut by choosing the hospital setting.

 

[tupac_don]

Well, it's true that as a pharmacy resident you will not be making much and you will be working a lot, but I think TotalKay0s was asking once you finish your residency do you tend to make more money as a pharmacist.

I'm not sure if you will be necessarily be making more money, but I think it will be comparable to the retail setting. Hospital positions have been notorious for being paid much less than their retail counterparts, but several pharmacists that recently finished their residencies and are now working have told me that the gap between the two in terms of salary is closing. I spoke to one UCSF grad who did a one year residency in Pediatrics at Stanford and is two years removed from that residency and is making $60/hour working at the same hospital. I'm not saying that's going to be the norm, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take a huge paycut by choosing the hospital setting.

Unfortunately the story you just said about your friend is not the norm. One he has a residency from Stanford, ok right there that tells me he is not your typical pharmacist. We are talking about an avg. pharmacist who finishes residency in a hospital setting. You really don' t make more money than a staff pharmacist. Now it is true that the gap b/w hospital and retail setting sig. diminished but it's probably about 5-10 dollar difference/hr depending on hwere you are located. As far as doing a residency, the advantage money wise is that it puts you in position to acquire a hire payed position if that is what you are aiming for after several years of experience. For example, becoming a clinical coordinator, where you could be making 1000,000+. However, strictly speaking if you are interested in science and just want to be a straight clinical pharmacist or clinical specialist. You will not be making more than 80 to 90 grand, but then again you will be working way more than a typical hourly staff pharmacist. Now bear in mind I am saying typical, you will always have those that will make less or more. Money wise, doing a residency is pointless. If you want money and that's your primary concern, your best bet is to become a manager and do an MBA or a Masters in Public Health. You can be making 130,000+ as a pharmacy manager. But that's for manager types I couldn't do it.

Now if you want to go strictly the science route and you want to distinguish yourself as a pharmacist in scientific circles, you MUST do research. You have to do a fellowship, so you will have to do 4 years post pharmacy school. But at the end of this ordeal you will be a "super" pharmacist. Then your job can get interesting. You can now work research or teach or work for a pharmaceutical company, the possibilities are endless.

So the short answer to my long winded speech is that yea residency training is beneficial long term for your career and money wise. However, short term you lose. Should only do residency if you want to build pharmacy as an academic or research career. Best of luck.

 

[Lexian]

Unfortunately the story you just said about your friend is not the norm. One he has a residency from Stanford, ok right there that tells me he is not your typical pharmacist. We are talking about an avg. pharmacist who finishes residency in a hospital setting. You really don' t make more money than a staff pharmacist. Now it is true that the gap b/w hospital and retail setting sig. diminished but it's probably about 5-10 dollar difference/hr depending on hwere you are located. As far as doing a residency, the advantage money wise is that it puts you in position to acquire a hire payed position if that is what you are aiming for after several years of experience. For example, becoming a clinical coordinator, where you could be making 1000,000+. However, strictly speaking if you are interested in science and just want to be a straight clinical pharmacist or clinical specialist. You will not be making more than 80 to 90 grand, but then again you will be working way more than a typical hourly staff pharmacist. Now bear in mind I am saying typical, you will always have those that will make less or more. Money wise, doing a residency is pointless. If you want money and that's your primary concern, your best bet is to become a manager and do an MBA or a Masters in Public Health. You can be making 130,000+ as a pharmacy manager. But that's for manager types I couldn't do it.

Now if you want to go strictly the science route and you want to distinguish yourself as a pharmacist in scientific circles, you MUST do research. You have to do a fellowship, so you will have to do 4 years post pharmacy school. But at the end of this ordeal you will be a "super" pharmacist. Then your job can get interesting. You can now work research or teach or work for a pharmaceutical company, the possibilities are endless.

So the short answer to my long winded speech is that yea residency training is beneficial long term for your career and money wise. However, short term you lose. Should only do residency if you want to build pharmacy as an academic or research career. Best of luck.

Her residency was a clinical residency at Stanford hospital. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "We are talking about an avg. pharmacist who finishes residency in a hospital setting" because that's exactly what she did and typically all residencies are done in a hospital setting. Yes, Stanford is one of the top residency programs in the country, but anytime you have that extra clinical experience through a residency you make yourself a better cantidate for a job, wouldn't you say?

If you are only interested in getting paid right away, then working retail would be the best way to do that. However, you even said it yourself: "yea residency training is beneficial long term for your career and money wise. However, short term you lose." Wouldn't that be worth the extra year of residency (2 years if you do a general residency followed by a specialty residency) if you knew that you would be able to have more career choices in the end and knowing that you have probably increased your salary window.

I think it's important to also say that even if you commit the time to doing a clinical residency, that does not mean that you couldn't always go back and work in a retail pharmacy setting. With a residency you just increased your career options and made a more attractive resume for yourself. A residency is definitely not for everyone, and I know that the extra year or two is too much for some people, especially when you have loans to pay off, possibly a family to support, etc. But I think it's a little misleading to say that you should only pursue a residency if you want to go to academia or research. If anything, if you want to go into pharmaceutical research you probably should be doing a research fellowship with a biotech firm like Merck,Pfizer or Genentech, not doing a clinical residency.

I agree with most of what you said tupac, but I think a residency is an investment to the future. Currently clinical pharmacy is still trying to find its niche in the hospital setting (with the importance of pharmacists,IMO, increasing in that role), and because of that the salary gap between clinical and retail is still trying to catch up to one another. But I would not go as far to say that doing a residency, money wise, is pointless.

 

[TotalKayOs]

that does clear of my question. i would like to do a residency becasue i think it would be fun and the knowlege and experence gained would be indispenseable, but finacially i don't think it will be worth it for me. i may actully go for the MBA route and try to work my way up the retail chain.

 

[tupac_don]

Her residency was a clinical residency at Stanford hospital. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "We are talking about an avg. pharmacist who finishes residency in a hospital setting" because that's exactly what she did and typically all residencies are done in a hospital setting. Yes, Stanford is one of the top residency programs in the country, but anytime you have that extra clinical experience through a residency you make yourself a better cantidate for a job, wouldn't you say?

If you are only interested in getting paid right away, then working retail would be the best way to do that. However, you even said it yourself: "yea residency training is beneficial long term for your career and money wise. However, short term you lose." Wouldn't that be worth the extra year of residency (2 years if you do a general residency followed by a specialty residency) if you knew that you would be able to have more career choices in the end and knowing that you have probably increased your salary window.

I think it's important to also say that even if you commit the time to doing a clinical residency, that does not mean that you couldn't always go back and work in a retail pharmacy setting. With a residency you just increased your career options and made a more attractive resume for yourself. A residency is definitely not for everyone, and I know that the extra year or two is too much for some people, especially when you have loans to pay off, possibly a family to support, etc. But I think it's a little misleading to say that you should only pursue a residency if you want to go to academia or research. If anything, if you want to go into pharmaceutical research you probably should be doing a research fellowship with a biotech firm like Merck,Pfizer or Genentech, not doing a clinical residency.

I agree with most of what you said tupac, but I think a residency is an investment to the future. Currently clinical pharmacy is still trying to find its niche in the hospital setting (with the importance of pharmacists,IMO, increasing in that role), and because of that the salary gap between clinical and retail is still trying to catch up to one another. But I would not go as far to say that doing a residency, money wise, is pointless.

Let me rephrase, when I said pointless, I meant that there are easier ways of making money in pharmacy then doing a residency. Doing an MBA or MPH will be 2 years and will make you a lot more money as a manager. ANd don't get me wrong I am all for residency, but not if your goal is just to make money, as seems to be the case with the OP.

Secondly, I did say long term, meaning minimum 10-15 years down the road, not in the next 5 years. I know of pharmacists who have really cool jobs and are getting good pay for it, but typically it's like 20 years after they practiced as a pharmacist.

Yea you can do pharmaceutical company research, I thought I did mention that. You can make quite a bit of money there. BUt very few jobs like that, need at least 2 years residency + 2 year fellowship + connections. Not a job you will get out of 1 year of residency.

But to dispel any myths, I whole heartedly agree that residency is building into your future. If you want to do pharmacy as a career you must do it. BUt alas I would say very small number of people will do it.

 

[sweetcalie08]

Thanks everyone for your input!

PS- I have finally gotten over my flop-of-a-midterm!

 

[Lexian]

Thanks everyone for your input!

PS- I have finally gotten over my flop-of-a-midterm!

Ah, we're all allowed a few bumps here and there. I'm sure you'll kick ass on the next one