Gunner Stories

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I wonder why the Navy/USMC call a CWO-1 through CWO-5 a Gunner? maybe because they are hard chargers and ass kickers in their MOS, and you want to follow them when the ****s hit the fan as in combat? Not the same as gunners in med school I guess.

There’s not really a CWO-1. There’s a W-1 rank, but the only community that has that is the cyber community. The Navy got rid of W-1 in the 70s and just brought it back for the cyber community.

But a gunner is a warrant in the weapons community. An aviation warrant isn’t a gunner. An operations warrant is a bosun (boatswain). On smaller ships where there usually isn’t a gunner warrant, the gunner is the weapons gunnery divo.

It has nothing to do with being a hard charger. It’s because they are the gunnery officer.

Edit: also, while technically a GM (gunner’s mate) is not a gunner (since they are the mate to the gunner), a lot of times people will refer to GMs as “gunner” in the same way they refer to a boatswain’s mate as “boats.” It’s a term of endearment for GMs who are solid Sailors.

Edit 2: also we don’t have MOS in the Navy. We have ratings.

/derail

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[Spectreman]

Maybe I’m in the minority on this, but this would backfire if I was his resident.

I’m assuming med students on audition rotations are not going home before somebody tells them to do so. If I tell the med students to go home, I expect them to go home. If one of them then came back and started implying to other staff that the other student just “disappeared,” I would be pissed. That medical student would get a stern (but respectful) lecture on teamwork, professionalism and, frankly, common decency. They would then be dismissed and told that I don’t want to see them again until the morning. This type of behavior would be detailed in their evaluation for the rotation and would factor heavily into the grade I give them.

It was change of shift and we had another surgery waiting on clearance so off-going resident told us to jet. Dude ran back up and jumped in with night resident. Next day he was like “sorry dude I got roped in” but I’m friends with the staff and they said he was talking crap the whole time.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It was change of shift and we had another surgery waiting on clearance so off-going resident told us to jet. Dude ran back up and jumped in with night resident. Next day he was like “sorry dude I got roped in” but I’m friends with the staff and they said he was talking crap the whole time.

I hope it got reflected in his grade or evals.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I have the most epic gunner story that actually played out on SDN out of all places. Believe it or not.

One of my classmates contemplated reporting me to the ethics committee at our school and to the Dean for using her soap note from the chart as a template to do my own soap note. It was on OB/Gyn. It was my first inpatient rotation and she had been there for 4 weeks longer than me. Mind you I actually told her that I was gonna do it as she had been on the rotation before me and gave me no orientation whatsoever and what to expect. I got blasted by the attending on my presentation and she did just fine during the rounds. The following morning, I told her that I was gonna use her format for Soap note to see what is pertinent to put on my note. She seemingly agreed but appeared kind of unhappy. Soap notes are part of the chart, so anyone can access it.

Anyway, I crushed the morning rounds with my notes and presentation the following day and got High praise from the attending. Within the hour of that, she got on SDN and made a thread about asking to report a classmate for unethical behavior and copying her SOAP note. Believe it or not. Of course, me being a regular here, I found it within a matter of hours and immediately confronted her, both in person, and here. My classmates knew my identity here, and asked me about it. They then got on here and roasted the **** out of her for her behavior. Also roasted her for not orienting me as she got properly oriented by previous batch of students, along with a template for “OB soap note”.

That thread got locked and deleted after a few days, rightfully so, as one of my classmates identified her with her name. Things got super weird rest of the rotation but my classmates supported me and apparently she got in the doghouse with a bunch of people. Rest is history.

Yes, that is how long I have been here. This website has literally shaped my medical career in every which way possible.

 

[slowthai]

That thread got locked and deleted after a few days, rightfully so, as one of my classmates identified her with her name. Things got super weird rest of the rotation but my classmates supported me and apparently she got in the doghouse with a bunch of people. Rest is history.

As I was heading to the reply box to ask for the name of the thread, I saw this and sighed in great disappointment and exasperation. Might just be the greatest SDN thread we never saw. Hope someone screenshotted

 

[DarkHorizon]

As I was heading to the reply box to ask for the name of the thread, I saw this and sighed in great disappointment and exasperation. Might just be the greatest SDN thread we never saw. Hope someone screenshotted

Oh I’m sure there are still a few old timers who remember it as it got a lot of traffic due to circumstances. No screenshots though.

Edit:
Got curious and looked up on web archives and this is the best I could do. You can see the title of the thread next to clinical rotations. It was a popular topic.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Oh I’m sure there are still a few old timers who remember it as it got a lot of traffic due to circumstances. No screenshots though.

Edit:
Got curious and looked up on web archives and this is the best I could do. You can see the title of the thread next to clinical rotations. It was a popular topic.

Around 2013-2014 there was a “best of SDN” thread started in the pre-allo forum and the aforementioned SOAP note thread was consistently in people’s top 3. IIRC, there was a link to an archive of the thread or at least a pretty detailed play by play.

 

[slowthai]

Around 2013-2014 there was a “best of SDN” thread started in the pre-allo forum and the aforementioned SOAP note thread was consistently in people’s top 3. IIRC, there was a link to an archive of the thread or at least a pretty detailed play by play.

Top SDN threads of the last few years

I've seen some pretty epic threads in the last couple of years. What was your favorite? Links to threads in poll: Rescindment of November = ? thread deleted PremedProdigy, AKA, the twitter dude = The weirdest people you met at interviews (This one really gets going in the last 7-8 pages)...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Was hoping for the archived thread. Ah well

 

[Lawpy]

Top SDN threads of the last few years

I've seen some pretty epic threads in the last couple of years. What was your favorite? Links to threads in poll: Rescindment of November = ? thread deleted PremedProdigy, AKA, the twitter dude = The weirdest people you met at interviews (This one really gets going in the last 7-8 pages)...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Was hoping for the archived thread. Ah well

Still got this!

Poll: Med Students Do You Have Time For Sex?

Hey guys, this is for a survey that I am doing for a class of mine. Please vote honestly, it is important (at least to me). Thanks for your time, Pubis.

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[DarkHorizon]

Around 2013-2014 there was a “best of SDN” thread started in the pre-allo forum and the aforementioned SOAP note thread was consistently in people’s top 3. IIRC, there was a link to an archive of the thread or at least a pretty detailed play by play.

Looks like the OP of the best SDN thread was the one to get the thread deleted. I remember he posted memes with her name a couple of times despite warnings. He even acknowledges in his own thread.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Top SDN threads of the last few years

I've seen some pretty epic threads in the last couple of years. What was your favorite? Links to threads in poll: Rescindment of November = ? thread deleted PremedProdigy, AKA, the twitter dude = The weirdest people you met at interviews (This one really gets going in the last 7-8 pages)...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Was hoping for the archived thread. Ah well

I wasted so much time at work when that thread was still alive. Either I stay far enough away from pre-allo/allo nowadays or SDN ain’t what it used to be.

 

[slowthai]

I wasted so much time at work when that thread was still alive. Either I stay far enough away from pre-allo/allo nowadays or SDN ain’t what it used to be.

Both?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Orgo 1 in undergrad:

-around 1000 people or so taking orgo at once
-grad students grade exams with a special red pencil
-we were allowed to dispute grading and turn exams back in for more points if we explain our reasoning
-two students photoshopped and recreated the exam, bought the same grading pencils, and gave themselves back points on questions they missed
-only got caught because they stapled the papers diagonally instead of horizontally and the head prof thought it was fishy that they asked for 20-ish percent back on the exam

the chemistry dept now scans the exams and returns them digitally to avoid this. all 1000 of them.

Their med school dreams good as crushed.

Way back when I was a naive M3, a generally well-liked kid in our class told us that a very well known douche bag gunner boy (I shall refer to him as GB) stole his idea and presented it as GB's own to the attending. It was quite the astute catch about a patient who was mysteriously on the decline that nice kid just happened to mention off-hand to GB during lunch. Turned out the observation was correct and the patient was well on his way to recovery after they fixed the problem.

I would like to say that people like GB get their comeuppance in due time, but it more often than not doesn't happen. He is now in a highly competitive specialty where he will be making a shyteton of money and will likely be the head of some sort of institution somewhere.

Well, at least he's not in psychiatry

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not a gunner story but something that bothers me once in awhile. During 3rd year there were myself, another M3, and 2 4th year subIs on an EM elective. On the last shift the attending was cool with the 4th years not coming in to study for their shelf. Me and the other 3rd year were told we also had the option to do whatever as well, but Since I’m applying EM I told the other student I still planned on coming in and Was cool with working solo, since they were applying psych and obviously had no interest in EM. Our evals were already filled out and since the attending said they were cool with whatever, it’s not like they needed to worry about looking bad. but I think they still decided to come in to not look bad, and to this day feel bad about it lol.

But I absolutely loved the rotation and we were allowed to manage our own patients from initial eval to consults to dispo, so I didn’t wanna miss out on anything just before audition season.

Lesson learned here was that I think we all do something that will be perceived as gunner behavior at some point, and not even notice it til years down the road.

Most people wouldn’t consider that a gunner move. You told them what you were going to do and gave them a heads up.

 

[operaman]

I never saw much gunning as a med student. Maybe I was the gunner! Or maybe nobody was stupid enough to mess with me.

Anyhow, definitely saw it as a resident. My favorite numbnuts was this away rotator from a top school who emailed the whole team and copied the other students the day before the rotation started. He said 'hi' on behalf of everyone and said they wouldn't be able to round in the morning because they had mandatory orientations and they would join us once it was done. That part was all true - pretty standard at our shop. The gunning came the next morning when the dude who sent the email showed up to round at 5am like we didn't clearly see what he was doing. Sadly for him his gunning never stopped and never got much better. He did bring us much joy in making fun of his antics after he left!

The gunning has definitely secretly hurt some applicants. We always made an effort as residents to reach out to anyone we knew that knew the applicant back home. Sometimes this meant a friend of a friend who was on rotations with them as a third year and sometimes a gunnery picture would emerge. Obviously we wouldn't make decisions on one data point, but I think we dodged some bullets when multiple people would comment on their gunner tendencies.

 

[calivianya]

I just rotated with an M4 who was making up his psych rotation bc his got cancelled during COVID. He has zero interest in psych, has already interviewed for his chosen super competitive surgical subspecialty, etc.

He was extremely rude to one patient during interviewing because he didn’t know crap about pharm - accused a patient of lying, to her face. He said something along the lines of, “you claim you don’t do illegal drugs, but your urine drug screen was positive for amphetamines - so obviously drugs got into your urine somehow.” I immediately interrupted him and told him phentermine is an amphetamine, which he didn’t know, since the patient had literally just told us she was on phentermine for weight loss. I also told him it explains her insomnia, since it has a 20-ish hour half life, and a lot of people have trouble sleeping on it.

He goes to the attending and made a big deal about how he thought her phentermine use probably exacerbated her anxiety/psychosis since it’s an amphetamine and how it was a reason she had insomnia LOL. I didn’t bother to say anything. I don’t want to go into psych either.

But just that he would call a patient a liar to her face because he didn’t know anything about pharm, and the way he confidently talked about the patient’s phentermine use to the attending like he came up with that crap himself, rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I just rotated with an M4 who was making up his psych rotation bc his got cancelled during COVID. He has zero interest in psych, has already interviewed for his chosen super competitive surgical subspecialty, etc.

He was extremely rude to one patient during interviewing because he didn’t know crap about pharm - accused a patient of lying, to her face. He said something along the lines of, “you claim you don’t do illegal drugs, but your urine drug screen was positive for amphetamines - so obviously drugs got into your urine somehow.” I immediately interrupted him and told him phentermine is an amphetamine, which he didn’t know, since the patient had literally just told us she was on phentermine for weight loss. I also told him it explains her insomnia, since it has a 20-ish hour half life, and a lot of people have trouble sleeping on it.

He goes to the attending and made a big deal about how he thought her phentermine use probably exacerbated her anxiety/psychosis since it’s an amphetamine and how it was a reason she had insomnia LOL. I didn’t bother to say anything. I don’t want to go into psych either.

But just that he would call a patient a liar to her face because he didn’t know anything about pharm, and the way he confidently talked about the patient’s phentermine use to the attending like he came up with that crap himself, rubbed me the wrong way.

And now he probably destroyed her trust in psychiatrists.

 

[Lawpy]

I just rotated with an M4 who was making up his psych rotation bc his got cancelled during COVID. He has zero interest in psych, has already interviewed for his chosen super competitive surgical subspecialty, etc.

He was extremely rude to one patient during interviewing because he didn’t know crap about pharm - accused a patient of lying, to her face. He said something along the lines of, “you claim you don’t do illegal drugs, but your urine drug screen was positive for amphetamines - so obviously drugs got into your urine somehow.” I immediately interrupted him and told him phentermine is an amphetamine, which he didn’t know, since the patient had literally just told us she was on phentermine for weight loss. I also told him it explains her insomnia, since it has a 20-ish hour half life, and a lot of people have trouble sleeping on it.

He goes to the attending and made a big deal about how he thought her phentermine use probably exacerbated her anxiety/psychosis since it’s an amphetamine and how it was a reason she had insomnia LOL. I didn’t bother to say anything. I don’t want to go into psych either.

But just that he would call a patient a liar to her face because he didn’t know anything about pharm, and the way he confidently talked about the patient’s phentermine use to the attending like he came up with that crap himself, rubbed me the wrong way.

Can you report this to the attending and hopefully get the guy slammed with a huge professionalism violation?

 

[calivianya]

Can you report this to the attending and hopefully get the guy slammed with a huge professionalism violation?

I actually just finished the rotation, and the attending was difficult to reach... our rotation was actually with a physician located 100 miles away that only saw the hospital psych inpatients via telehealth. We had a NP once a week on Fridays but that was the only psych provider physically in the hospital ever. And sometimes the attending didn’t “round” (on the iPad) until after we left for the day. I don’t feel like he knew me well enough to necessarily believe me on a he said/she said. He didn’t know any of us.

It’s going to be interesting to see my rotation eval.

 

[FindersFee5]

I just rotated with an M4 who was making up his psych rotation bc his got cancelled during COVID. He has zero interest in psych, has already interviewed for his chosen super competitive surgical subspecialty, etc.

He was extremely rude to one patient during interviewing because he didn’t know crap about pharm - accused a patient of lying, to her face. He said something along the lines of, “you claim you don’t do illegal drugs, but your urine drug screen was positive for amphetamines - so obviously drugs got into your urine somehow.” I immediately interrupted him and told him phentermine is an amphetamine, which he didn’t know, since the patient had literally just told us she was on phentermine for weight loss. I also told him it explains her insomnia, since it has a 20-ish hour half life, and a lot of people have trouble sleeping on it.

He goes to the attending and made a big deal about how he thought her phentermine use probably exacerbated her anxiety/psychosis since it’s an amphetamine and how it was a reason she had insomnia LOL. I didn’t bother to say anything. I don’t want to go into psych either.

But just that he would call a patient a liar to her face because he didn’t know anything about pharm, and the way he confidently talked about the patient’s phentermine use to the attending like he came up with that crap himself, rubbed me the wrong way.

Yeah that's for sure annoying. One of my least favorite residents this year was a PGY2 gen surg resident who was definitely that type of med student a few years back. She frequently berated patients for lying to her/telling her something wrong. The other student on the rotation and I joked that she was "Always certain, and sometimes right."

 

[operaman]

Not sure if the attending would care much. They are presumably the one that apparently ordered a UDS on an awake competent patient after all.

Can you report this to the attending and hopefully get the guy slammed with a huge professionalism violation?

 

[calivianya]

Not sure if the attending would care much. They are presumably the one that apparently ordered a UDS on an awake competent patient after all.

They did a UDS on everyone admitted to the psych unit. Not sure if that’s standard practice everywhere, or just at this hospital.

 

[operaman]

They did a UDS on everyone admitted to the psych unit. Not sure if that’s standard practice everywhere, or just at this hospital.

I could understand it for anyone with altered mental status where you can’t get a good history, which probably describes a number of psych admits. The idea of getting one on a patient who is alert and conversant seems like a massive invasion of privacy.

 

[Stagg737]

If they don’t know it, and you’re asked there’s no reason you can’t answer. Now if they asked a resident or intern, I personally wouldn’t answer it if I knew the answer but that’s just because I wouldn’t want to make them look bad. Some people might disagree with me there.

Basically, I think answering a question someone else at the same level as you didn’t know is fine if you’re specifically asked.

Answer correct no matter what if you’re called on. Even if residents got it wrong, it’s typically nbd. The resident shouldn’t have a problem with it unless they’re a total d-bag or very insecure.

Sort of but not really. Short version is, one tried covertly to influence me to score lower on exam 2 because they didn't like my score on the first exam. After he knew I knew what he was trying, he couldn't look me in the eye for a while. He was relieved and showed his appreciation when I told him I didn't mind anymore after a while.

I think our interaction was helpful for change.

The problem with this is that most gunners will have significant antisocial or narcissistic traits and aren’t going to learn a real lesson other than they need to be better at

Because of fears that residents/attendings can casually dismiss it as part of the game? Or maybe they don't have anything to believe on unless they actually witnessed it? Also what's stopping the gunner from denying the sabotaged classmate's claims and actually accuse them of undermining teamwork? Unless the sabotaged classmate is documenting every encounter through objective evidence or reliable 3rd party, they don't seem to have any recourse.

If someone were legitimately sabotaging their classmates I’d want to know, it’s a potential patient safety issue. If it happens (only had one person say something to me) I keep an eye on both students in case one is trying to make someone else look bad. I’ve only had one or two students come through my service that were actually a problem, and this was reflected in their evals as well as emails to our PD.

The thing about med school gunners on clinical rotations is that they’re often oblivious to the fact that residents can see through what they’re doing. I mean, it’s not like we went to med school or anything...

They did a UDS on everyone admitted to the psych unit. Not sure if that’s standard practice everywhere, or just at this hospital.

I could understand it for anyone with altered mental status where you can’t get a good history, which probably describes a number of psych admits. The idea of getting one on a patient who is alert and conversant seems like a massive invasion of privacy.

It’s standard to get a UDS on everyone admitted to psych. If they’re being admitted, then they almost certainly have something wrong with their mental status. It’s part of a basic medical clearance and I get a little pissed when I see someone make it onto our unit without basic labs done (CMP, CBC, TSH, UA, and UDS are standard. Throw on lipids and A1c if they’re on long-term antipsychotics. Tack on acetaminophen and salicylates if there’s a suspected OD attempt). If a patient is AMS they better have head imaging as well, I’ve heard of a few very bad outcomes from patients who weren’t properly worked up for medical issues before admission to psych. I also frequently order Vit D levels since psych patients are almost always low and many need supplementation.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Answer correct no matter what if you’re called on. Even if residents got it wrong, it’s typically nbd. The resident shouldn’t have a problem with it unless they’re a total d-bag or very insecure.

That’s interesting. We had a panel with the class ahead of us who just finished their core clerkships (we start our clerkship year Monday), and the advice we were given was that they should go from M3 to M4 to intern to resident, but if they go the other way for some reason that we should just say we don’t know so we don’t show up the seniors.

 

[BunnyMan17]

That’s interesting. We had a panel with the class ahead of us who just finished their core clerkships (we start our clerkship year Monday), and the advice we were given was that they should go from M3 to M4 to intern to resident, but if they go the other way for some reason that we should just say we don’t know so we don’t show up the seniors.

That's the same advice we got and you'll be safe if you follow it, but when you're on the rotations they often they start w/ the interns or residents and then open it up to everyone. At that point you're fine to go, just be tactful. "Showing up the seniors" wasn't really ever thing anyone ever got butt hurt about.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

That’s interesting. We had a panel with the class ahead of us who just finished their core clerkships (we start our clerkship year Monday), and the advice we were given was that they should go from M3 to M4 to intern to resident, but if they go the other way for some reason that we should just say we don’t know so we don’t show up the seniors.

That's the same advice we got and you'll be safe if you follow it, but when you're on the rotations they often they start w/ the interns or residents and then open it up to everyone. At that point you're fine to go, just be tactful. "Showing up the seniors" wasn't really ever thing anyone ever got butt hurt about.

That's really weird. I've never been given that advice, though we don't work with residents on every rotation and maybe it matters more in more hierarchical institutions. I think if you're ever directly asked a question, you should answer it if you know the answer. I've had attendings who get progressively more difficult to work with/keep grilling harder if people don't answer their questions correctly, so I think it's in everyone's best interest to get the correct answer out there even if someone before you got it wrong (also for our own learning!) Just make sure you're not jumping in too eagerly like you're intentionally showing other people up

I think one of my most incredibly uncomfortable moments where I probably came off as a gunner was a time when we were rounding with an attending like I described above, and our residents had warned us ahead of time to read up on a couple of topics they expected the attending to grill us on. I knew for a fact that the other student hadn't done so (the residents literally handed us printed articles to read during some downtime, I watched him ignore it and sit around playing on his phone instead, and from earlier discussions I knew it wasn't a topic that either of us knew anything about previously). So on rounds I ended up being literally the only one answering any of the questions she posed to the group (she liked students to answer before residents). I tried to give the other student opportunities to chime in and answer but he never did, and our other alternative was standing around basking in this attending's disappointment and drawing out rounds forever

 

[BunnyMan17]

That's really weird. I've never been given that advice, though we don't work with residents on every rotation and maybe it matters more in more hierarchical institutions. I think if you're ever directly asked a question, you should answer it if you know the answer. I've had attendings who get progressively more difficult to work with/keep grilling harder if people don't answer their questions correctly, so I think it's in everyone's best interest to get the correct answer out there even if someone before you got it wrong (also for our own learning!) Just make sure you're not jumping in too eagerly like you're intentionally showing other people up

I think one of my most incredibly uncomfortable moments where I probably came off as a gunner was a time when we were rounding with an attending like I described above, and our residents had warned us ahead of time to read up on a couple of topics they expected the attending to grill us on. I knew for a fact that the other student hadn't done so (the residents literally handed us printed articles to read during some downtime, I watched him ignore it and sit around playing on his phone instead, and from earlier discussions I knew it wasn't a topic that either of us knew anything about previously). So on rounds I ended up being literally the only one answering any of the questions she posed to the group (she liked students to answer before residents). I tried to give the other student opportunities to chime in and answer but he never did, and our other alternative was standing around basking in this attending's disappointment and drawing out rounds forever

I mean to be fair (yes, that is a reference) we go to the same school. But you're experience doesn't sound gunnery to me. You just did as instructed and the other student did not, sounds like you were plenty polite to all involved either way.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's the same advice we got and you'll be safe if you follow it, but when you're on the rotations they often they start w/ the interns or residents and then open it up to everyone. At that point you're fine to go, just be tactful. "Showing up the seniors" wasn't really ever thing anyone ever got butt hurt about.

Good to know. I certainly don’t mind pretending I don’t know something (or, more likely, admit when I actually don’t know something), but I also want to look good so I get a good grade and letters lol

That's really weird. I've never been given that advice, though we don't work with residents on every rotation and maybe it matters more in more hierarchical institutions. I think if you're ever directly asked a question, you should answer it if you know the answer. I've had attendings who get progressively more difficult to work with/keep grilling harder if people don't answer their questions correctly, so I think it's in everyone's best interest to get the correct answer out there even if someone before you got it wrong (also for our own learning!) Just make sure you're not jumping in too eagerly like you're intentionally showing other people up

I think one of my most incredibly uncomfortable moments where I probably came off as a gunner was a time when we were rounding with an attending like I described above, and our residents had warned us ahead of time to read up on a couple of topics they expected the attending to grill us on. I knew for a fact that the other student hadn't done so (the residents literally handed us printed articles to read during some downtime, I watched him ignore it and sit around playing on his phone instead, and from earlier discussions I knew it wasn't a topic that either of us knew anything about previously). So on rounds I ended up being literally the only one answering any of the questions she posed to the group (she liked students to answer before residents). I tried to give the other student opportunities to chime in and answer but he never did, and our other alternative was standing around basking in this attending's disappointment and drawing out rounds forever

Well bunnyman and I go to the same school, so it makes sense that we’d get the same advice. I don’t think what you did was gunnery. You all had the same opportunity, they just chose to ignore it.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

I mean to be fair (yes, that is a reference) we go to the same school. But you're experience doesn't sound gunnery to me. You just did as instructed and the other student did not, sounds like you were plenty polite to all involved either way.

I don’t think what you did was gunnery. You all had the same opportunity, they just chose to ignore it.

Yeah I'm not really worried at all about actually BEING a gunner (my class in general has always been pretty supportive of each other and thankfully that has translated well to rotations so far) but I think sometimes I see people complain about "gunners" when it's just someone putting in the work that they didn't want to do themselves, and I can see how this situation could have looked that way

 

[FindersFee5]

Good to know. I certainly don’t mind pretending I don’t know something (or, more likely, admit when I actually don’t know something), but I also want to look good so I get a good grade and letters lol



Well bunnyman and I go to the same school, so it makes sense that we’d get the same advice. I don’t think what you did was gunnery. You all had the same opportunity, they just chose to ignore it.

I'm writing up a guide to 3rd year at some point (when interviews/holiday season and no daycare stop kicking my a**), and one of the biggest aspects is that what you do is a lot less important than how you do it. If you're reliable, on-time, enjoyable to spend time with, cheerful, and readily admit when you're wrong or don't know something, 90% of residents will be happy or impressed with you for knowing something that they don't know.

 

[Stagg737]

That’s interesting. We had a panel with the class ahead of us who just finished their core clerkships (we start our clerkship year Monday), and the advice we were given was that they should go from M3 to M4 to intern to resident, but if they go the other way for some reason that we should just say we don’t know so we don’t show up the seniors.

Honestly, I'd be disappointed with your classmates if they rotated under me. When the med student knows something the resident doesn't it typically means one of three things. 1) The med student is a rockstar. 2) The resident is a new intern or a poor resident. 3) It just happens to be some random fact that the med student knew that the resident didn't.

Part of being in a team is working together and teaching each other. My favorite med students are the ones who aren't afraid to speak up (politely, obviously) and teach me something every once in a while. My favorite attendings are either the older extremely experienced attendings (the ancient encyclopedias) or those who don't know some fact/thing that I do and then we look up the evidence together. Being a physician means being a life-long learner at all levels. Those who are insecure or narcissistic enough to get upset when someone knows something they don't, even those academically less experienced, are a disappointment imo.

I understand the fears of stepping on toes as a med student. But as FF said above, it's more about how you do something and not what you're actually doing. Be polite, be helpful, and don't be obnoxious and reasonable attendings and residents will appreciate it when you teach them something. If they get upset, that should be a red flag about either the resident or that rotation/service.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Honestly, I'd be disappointed with your classmates if they rotated under me. When the med student knows something the resident doesn't it typically means one of three things. 1) The med student is a rockstar. 2) The resident is a new intern or a poor resident. 3) It just happens to be some random fact that the med student knew that the resident didn't.

Part of being in a team is working together and teaching each other. My favorite med students are the ones who aren't afraid to speak up (politely, obviously) and teach me something every once in a while. My favorite attendings are either the older extremely experienced attendings (the ancient encyclopedias) or those who don't know some fact/thing that I do and then we look up the evidence together. Being a physician means being a life-long learner at all levels. Those who are insecure or narcissistic enough to get upset when someone knows something they don't, even those academically less experienced, are a disappointment imo.

I understand the fears of stepping on toes as a med student. But as FF said above, it's more about how you do something and not what you're actually doing. Be polite, be helpful, and don't be obnoxious and reasonable attendings and residents will appreciate it when you teach them something. If they get upset, that should be a red flag about either the resident or that rotation/service.

Yeah, they basically presented it as “roundsmanship” where part of your job is to help the intern and residents look good, and answering stuff they don’t know doesn’t make them look good.

But I think it’s more nuanced than that. If the attending is the kind of person that will ding the interns or residents if they don’t know it and the med student does and it might hurt them, then yeah be a team player. But if it’s a collegial team and everyone is copacetic then it seems like people would be happy if you knew something.

Just gotta read the culture.

 

[calivianya]

With the answering stuff residents didn’t know thing - I have a metric ton of healthcare experience in a high acuity tertiary referral center, and I’m rotating in a small community hospital, so I have seen a lot of things my residents had not just by virtue of where they’re working. Just basic crap, too - for example, we had a patient on continuous bladder irrigation post TURP and none of the residents working had seen or had a patient on continuous bladder irrigation before (?!). Urology coverage at this facility is super spotty (like only a couple days a week, if that, since we share a urology group with a larger city 50+ miles away), so I guess that’s why, but still.

I tried to only occasionally answer questions directed at the residents, and then only if the attending paused, and then looked around at the rest of us if the residents failed to answer. I let one go that I still think about because the attending briefly looked directly at me because he knew my work experience and I think he expected me to know, but I’d already answered something that day and didn’t want to look like a d-bag in front of the residents. You know when you’re trying to go to sleep and you think about the stupid things you’ve done? It’s one of those moments for me.

 

[greatnt249]

For some reason this reminds me of my psych rotation in third year when a resident was a bit gunnery and tried to sabotage me to the attending. I had to really fight to get assigned patients on this one and finally convinced the attending to let me see a consult and come up with a plan. After I saw the patient I went and UpToDated to come up with the finer details, specific labs we needed to trend, etc. before presenting. The attending said I did a good job and the resident got insecure and interjected with “he looked up the management he didn’t know anything about how to take care of this patient!”.

Like bitch, I’m a third year of course I don’t know how to take care of these patients. Never been gunned down by a resident before or since, was definitely a unique experience.

Half the battle in medicine is knowing to look something up if you are unsure of the management...doesn't matter if you're a third-year medical student or a seasoned attending. Granted, there are certain aspects of medicine that you'll just have to know cold to be able to treat, but it's just as much a skill to know how to look up what to do as it is to implement a treatment plan.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For some reason this reminds me of my psych rotation in third year when a resident was a bit gunnery and tried to sabotage me to the attending. I had to really fight to get assigned patients on this one and finally convinced the attending to let me see a consult and come up with a plan. After I saw the patient I went and UpToDated to come up with the finer details, specific labs we needed to trend, etc. before presenting. The attending said I did a good job and the resident got insecure and interjected with “he looked up the management he didn’t know anything about how to take care of this patient!”.

Like bitch, I’m a third year of course I don’t know how to take care of these patients. Never been gunned down by a resident before or since, was definitely a unique experience.

Wow must be a really insecure resident.

 

[deleted1076141]

A classmate of mine in undergrad anatomy lab wouldn’t help his girlfriend study for one of our practicals because he didn’t want to raise the curve. Shocker: the relationship didn’t last

 

[operaman]

Yeah, they basically presented it as “roundsmanship” where part of your job is to help the intern and residents look good, and answering stuff they don’t know doesn’t make them look good.

But I think it’s more nuanced than that. If the attending is the kind of person that will ding the interns or residents if they don’t know it and the med student does and it might hurt them, then yeah be a team player. But if it’s a collegial team and everyone is copacetic then it seems like people would be happy if you knew something.

Just gotta read the culture.

Exactly. Gotta read the room.

I also found it helpful to preface answers in those cases with something like “I was just reading about this and my understanding is that....” Seemed to ease the impact a bit.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Exactly. Gotta read the room.

I also found it helpful to preface answers in those cases with something like “I was just reading about this and my understanding is that....” Seemed to ease the impact a bit.

Yeah I usually say stuff like that so it doesn’t seem like I’m a know-it-all lol.

 

[FunkyFrog994]

Is saying medical school has been way easier than I expected a "gunner" thing to do? Asking because I did so at a party and had an MS4 take a swing at me and call me a gunner lol..

 

[slowthai]

Is saying medical school has been way easier than I expected a "gunner" thing to do? Asking because I did so at a party and had an MS4 take a swing at me and call me a gunner lol..

Lol, you can't be serious about that last part. But no, like I said in the first post, a gunner is simply someone that screws other people over to get ahead. If you're not doing that, you're not a gunner, despite the fact that most people misuse the term nowadays.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

had an MS4 take a swing at me and call me a gunner lol..

Figuratively or literally?

 

[FunkyFrog994]

Lol, you can't be serious about that last part. But no, like I said in the first post, a gunner is simply someone that screws other people over to get ahead. If you're not doing that, you're not a gunner, despite the fact that most people misuse the term nowadays.

Figuratively or literally?

Sadly literally. I was talking to a friend (he's not in med school) at a small get together about how 1st semester went and said something along the lines of "Dude my lowest grade is like a 93, didn't think med school would feel this easy..." Out of nowhere the MS4 (not really involved in the conversation) starts calling me an arrogant, POS, gunner etc. which I pretty much ignored. The guy then tried to throw me on the ground before punching me in the face. Whole thing was pretty nuts, but I guess I just found myself wondering if maybe I was being a gunner by bragging a bit lol.

 

[slowthai]

It’s not polite and won’t be received well because for 95% of med students it’s not easy, so you’re essentially telling them if they aren’t doing well it’s their own fault.

It would be called “gunner” behavior in most modern med students minds but isn’t really. Like I said it’s just not polite.

But honestly, how does this follow? All he/she is saying is that it's easier than he/she thought it would be. This person is not making any statements about anyone else's capabilities, work ethic, or study methods. This statement is specific to this person's expectations about the difficulty of med school.

Now making that statement in the context of a party is probably not a good idea, but there's no problem with the statement in and of itself.

 

[slowthai]

Sadly literally. I was talking to a friend (he's not in med school) at a small get together about how 1st semester went and said something along the lines of "Dude my lowest grade is like a 93, didn't think med school would feel this easy..." Out of nowhere the MS4 (not really involved in the conversation) starts calling me an arrogant, POS, gunner etc. which I pretty much ignored. The guy then tried to throw me on the ground before punching me in the face. Whole thing was pretty nuts, but I guess I just found myself wondering if maybe I was being a gunner by bragging a bit lol.

Wow...that is actually insane lol. I've never heard of physical confrontation over perceived "gunner" behavior, which it wasn't lol. That M4 needs to simmer down

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sadly literally. I was talking to a friend (he's not in med school) at a small get together about how 1st semester went and said something along the lines of "Dude my lowest grade is like a 93, didn't think med school would feel this easy..." Out of nowhere the MS4 (not really involved in the conversation) starts calling me an arrogant, POS, gunner etc. which I pretty much ignored. The guy then tried to throw me on the ground before punching me in the face. Whole thing was pretty nuts, but I guess I just found myself wondering if maybe I was being a gunner by bragging a bit lol.

Should report him. That kind of psycho shouldn’t be in medicine.

 

[AzBasRad]

Sadly literally. I was talking to a friend (he's not in med school) at a small get together about how 1st semester went and said something along the lines of "Dude my lowest grade is like a 93, didn't think med school would feel this easy..." Out of nowhere the MS4 (not really involved in the conversation) starts calling me an arrogant, POS, gunner etc. which I pretty much ignored. The guy then tried to throw me on the ground before punching me in the face. Whole thing was pretty nuts, but I guess I just found myself wondering if maybe I was being a gunner by bragging a bit lol.

Whoa that's crazy! I hope you reported the MS4. Not someone who should be taking care of patients in a few months

 

[slowthai]

Not polite because just like other opinions that people might feel strongly about, unless you’re super close and know how that person is doing, they might feel pretty awful about themselves already and it’s rubbing it in their face.

I’ve witnessed this exact scenario where a first year was in a group and I happened to be there and listened to them talk about how easy it was to average >90% on their very first test. They said this in front of two other first years who had just got done asking me how I improved my own grades because they each failed 2 subjects.

But this person is talking about his/her experience. But we can definitely agree that a statement like this is best said behind closed doors, because bragging doesn't look good and it's just not in good taste.

For the record, I don't brag about anything or talk about grades, ever.

 

[FunkyFrog994]

Should report him. That kind of psycho shouldn’t be in medicine.

Who's that's crazy! I hope you reported the MS4. Not someone who about be taking care of patients in a few months

We used to be pretty good friends in high school so I didn't, but I definitely feel that he might need to take some time to get his life together. The guy took down a 6 pack and a half glass of whiskey while I wasn't drinking and everyone else was maybe at half of that.

But this person is talking about his/her experience. But we can definitely agree that a statement like this is best said behind closed doors, because bragging doesn't look good and it's just not in good taste.

For the record, I don't brag about anything or talk about grades, ever.

Yeah I think I'm going to be more cautious when talking about grades in front of other med school students from now on, but at the same time I feel like med students should be mature enough to handle that conversation without going ape s*** or taking it as an insult.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But this person is talking about his/her experience. But we can definitely agree that a statement like this is best said behind closed doors, because bragging doesn't look good and it's just not in good taste.

For the record, I don't brag about anything or talk about grades, ever.

Yeah, might not be in good taste but it doesn’t warrant assault.