Healthcare is NOT a right!

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tx oms

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I'm enjoying the debate in the race thread but in light of some of the more recent comments I thought I would start a new thread about access to healthcare.

Healthcare is not a right. We do not need to worry about recruiting doc/dentists to underserved areas. A right is something deserved simply for being human. You have a right to freedom, self preservation, equality, etc, but not CRRT for end-stage diabetic nephropathy.

Furthermore, healthcare is a service. If people in an "underserved" area want a doc they should be willing to pay him. Every business in America does demographic studies before opening b/c they want to make money. Why is it so amazing that docs don't want to work for free? There are people all around the world who never see a doctor yet in America we worry when someone doesn't get there Pap smear right on time.

Most of the people who can't afford to go to the doctor can afford to smoke, drink, and/or talk on a cell phone. Additionally, they often participate in activities that give them the very health problems for which they can't afford to see a doctor. Put down the bottle, the cigs, and the twinkie. Buy a pair of walking shoes.

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tx oms said:
... Put down the bottle, the cigs, and the twinkie. Buy a pair of walking shoes.

....and don't forget to wear your seat belt, save your money for a rainy day or an unexpected expense and definitely, I mean definitely, don't smart off to the "dudes" when you are drunk.... a highly risky behavior
 
tx oms said:
I'm enjoying the debate in the race thread but in light of some of the more recent comments I thought I would start a new thread about access to healthcare.

Healthcare is not a right. We do not need to worry about recruiting doc/dentists to underserved areas. A right is something deserved simply for being human. You have a right to freedom, self preservation, equality, etc, but not CRRT for end-stage diabetic nephropathy.

Furthermore, healthcare is a service. If people in an "underserved" area want a doc they should be willing to pay him. Every business in America does demographic studies before opening b/c they want to make money. Why is it so amazing that docs don't want to work for free? There are people all around the world who never see a doctor yet in America we worry when someone doesn't get there Pap smear right on time.

Most of the people who can't afford to go to the doctor can afford to smoke, drink, and/or talk on a cell phone. Additionally, they often participate in activities that give them the very health problems for which they can't afford to see a doctor. Put down the bottle, the cigs, and the twinkie. Buy a pair of walking shoes.


so true....

in the 60s, 70s and early 80s, healthcare was a right because the country was fighting infectious diseases, in which behavior mattered little and everyone needed the vaccinations and treatment. but nowadays, chronic diseases seem to be america's health problem; these diseases are, like you implied, behavior-based. i agree with what you're saying to the fullest. how do you reconcile genetics (healthy behavior and still get hypertension or DM) and cancer (causes largely unknown) with that though? i think those need to be given a chance.
ironically, when i was at the gym yesterday, i spoke to 2 retired physicians about access to healthcare. they both said that healthcare is a right like air and water. in my head i was like "yeah right, and so is mcDonalds, BBQ ribs, sugar-rich beverages, Salted snacks, and unprotected anal sex"... :D :rolleyes:
 
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Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Healthcare is a right. Yes, the business and insurance companies DO need to make money, but there is no excuse for some people who are sick not being able to access to healthcare that they desperately need. There needs to be a balance between making money and getting people the care they need.

And while you say that some are "behavior based," most aren't. How about people who have autoimmune diseases or genetic deficincies? They're born with that, it's not like someone goes around looking to contract lupus or arithritis or asthma or some other genetic diesease.

I agree with you about the necessity of preventative measure, but there's NO excuse for someone who is ill with a genetic disease to get turned down for health insurance or encounter the wonderful "pre-existing condition" clause.
 
beannaithe said:
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Healthcare is a right. Yes, the business and insurance companies DO need to make money, but there is no excuse for some people who are sick not being able to access to healthcare that they desperately need. There needs to be a balance between making money and getting people the care they need.

And while you say that some are "behavior based," most aren't. How about people who have autoimmune diseases or genetic deficincies? They're born with that, it's not like someone goes around looking to contract lupus or arithritis or asthma or some other genetic diesease.

I agree with you about the necessity of preventative measure, but there's NO excuse for someone who is ill with a genetic disease to get turned down for health insurance or encounter the wonderful "pre-existing condition" clause.


well-said....i did say that genetics and cancer are exceptions...
 
as several of you can relate, working in an urban hospital serving the indigent population, it's very easy to become callous the self destruction that surrounds us. Intern year memories of suturing 15 cm stellate lacerations in the ED at 2am on some ungrateful drunk, who got busted for selling crack, only to have him reach onto your sterile field to itch his formication, will certainly make you question whether that bastard deserves such care, whereas the law abiding lower class citizen who doesn't qualify for government "assistance" and who actually feels it's necessary to pay hospital bills has to spend a good portion of his/her income on health insurance rather than some blunts and a pint/day. Although I may have just created the longest sentence in the English language, I will not stray from the topic at hand. With the advent of outcome based compensation that is being implemented in virtually all the major hospitals in the country, you can't help but think that the government and insurance compainies are out to screw the health professionals. For those of you who don't know what this is, it basically means that a physicians income will depend on the results he gets for his patients. For example, if a diabetic patients blood sugars and renal function are not well controlled, then his physician doesn't get paid. I want to see whether the dental community will still think that healthcare is a right when their orthodontic patient doesn't wear their retainer or their crowns fail due to poor oral hygiene, resulting in no fees for those procedures.
 
fightingspirit said:
well-said....i did say that genetics and cancer are exceptions...

Oops. I didn't see your response, I was just responding directly to what the OP stated. I completely agree with your response and would be interested in seeing how the OP feels about cancer/genetic diseases.
 
Healthcare should definitely be a right. At least for anyone who is actively contributing something to this country or unable to do so due to some ailment. So does that mean anyone who is here illegally picking strawberries, yep they and their children should have healthcare. How about your average crack-*****, send them to Cuba or back to some other 3rd world country who would most likely just put them out of their misery. There are plenty of people here who don't have healthcare and work their asses off every day and they should be allowed to seek treatment.
 
TucsonDDS said:
Healthcare should definitely be a right. At least for anyone who is actively contributing something to this country or unable to do so due to some ailment. So does that mean anyone who is here illegally picking strawberries, yep they and their children should have healthcare. How about your average crack-*****, send them to Cuba or back to some other 3rd world country who would most likely just put them out of their misery. There are plenty of people here who don't have healthcare and work their asses off every day and they should be allowed to seek treatment.
I agree with the original poster. Health care is not a right. A right is something an individual can utilize without impinging in any way upon his neighbor. In other words, my right to freedom of speech for example does not require anything from anybody. People may listen to what I say or not. In this country, we have property rights (Kelo notwithstanding). If health care is a right as some of you believe, then who will provide it? Do I not have property rights to my own labor? That said, I do believe as members of a traditional profession, we have an obligation to serve others. After all, we're not accountants, no offense intended. Please read carefully, what I'm saying is we hold some obligation to service, that is NOT the same as stating the population has a right to health care. I'd ramble more, but dinner's ready.
 
TucsonDDS said:
Healthcare should definitely be a right. At least for anyone who is actively contributing something to this country or unable to do so due to some ailment. So does that mean anyone who is here illegally picking strawberries, yep they and their children should have healthcare. How about your average crack-*****, send them to Cuba or back to some other 3rd world country who would most likely just put them out of their misery. There are plenty of people here who don't have healthcare and work their asses off every day and they should be allowed to seek treatment.
First, most communities, counties, and/or states offer some form of reduced or free cost care to indigents.

Now, on to your post. My head hurts just from reading it. Rights are things that people are entitled to simply b/c they are human. Rights are international and universal, hence the term "human rights". If health care is a right, it applies to the illegals and crack ******. Case in point, if a crack ***** gets raped, we still punish the rapist. She has a basic human right to not be raped, even if she is a crack *****.

Rights are not contigent on country of origin or class.
 
beannaithe said:
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Healthcare is a right. Yes, the business and insurance companies DO need to make money, but there is no excuse for some people who are sick not being able to access to healthcare that they desperately need. There needs to be a balance between making money and getting people the care they need.

And while you say that some are "behavior based," most aren't. How about people who have autoimmune diseases or genetic deficincies? They're born with that, it's not like someone goes around looking to contract lupus or arithritis or asthma or some other genetic diesease.

I agree with you about the necessity of preventative measure, but there's NO excuse for someone who is ill with a genetic disease to get turned down for health insurance or encounter the wonderful "pre-existing condition" clause.

What gives people the right to healthcare? How do you determine what is a right? You clearly talk about healthcare that people "need". This brings up an excellent point: healthcare is a need, not a right. Food is a need, water is a need, housing is a need. Needs are something you must have for survival but not something that are guaranteed to you just b/c you've been born.

Wars are fought over rights. When was the last war raged over the fact that some country was not giving away free healthcare?

Furthermore, when you are around the medical side more you realize that most healthcare only prolongs death, it does not prevent death. If a person doesn't get healthcare they simply may die sooner. Nothing really changes.
 
I agree. Right now I am making $7.50/hr working about 35 or less hrs per week. I am about to get a drastic pay reduction when I hafta switch jobs (from $7.50/hr for 35 or less hrs per week to $5.80/hr for 33 hrs or less per week.) I have to buy my own health insurance because I have a "pre existing condition". My health insurance started out at $178.60 per month, but now I just got noticed that in June, my health insurance is going to be jacked up to around $236.92 per month. I refuse to go on public assistance. Its out of pride that I pay for my own health insurance. As a Republican, (I'm not bringing politics into this I'm just stating I am republican) I abhor when my taxes go to support those who refuse to work and want to live off others. My father refuses to help me and would rather I go on welfare. I will try to get the health insurance paid but it will be a struggle. But i refuse to go on welfare and sit and rot.
 
tx oms said:
Most of the people who can't afford to go to the doctor can afford to smoke, drink, and/or talk on a cell phone. Additionally, they often participate in activities that give them the very health problems for which they can't afford to see a doctor. Put down the bottle, the cigs, and the twinkie. Buy a pair of walking shoes.

I couldn't agree more. Why some people act this way nearly drives me crazy. It's a shame I let it affect me and cause my anger to boil towards people who are unhealthy.
 
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I didn't fully read my post and forgot to say half the crap I meant to say. I do believe that healthcare should be provided for any working member of society. I believe that if they are providing a vital service to this country they should at least have healthcare. I am simply saying that the useless peices of crap that abbuse the system should no longer be able to utilize the system where as people that actually will appreciate the services provided should not have to worry about where to take their children when they get sick. I am also not saying that providers should have to do it for free or even reduced fees. Diverting money from your average gang-bangers gsw in the ass would most likely pay for the little girl with osteosarcoma who has no insurance and whos parents are unable to pay for the services. I don't have the answers for where any other money should have to come from (and by the way I am republican for most issues) but I have no problems for my tax dollar going to the illegal alien working 60 hrs/wk washing dishes.

So in essence, yes it should be a right for some and who cares about the others.
 
QM1 said:
I agree with the original poster. Health care is not a right. A right is something an individual can utilize without impinging in any way upon his neighbor. In other words, my right to freedom of speech for example does not require anything from anybody. People may listen to what I say or not. In this country, we have property rights (Kelo notwithstanding). If health care is a right as some of you believe, then who will provide it? Do I not have property rights to my own labor? That said, I do believe as members of a traditional profession, we have an obligation to serve others. After all, we're not accountants, no offense intended. Please read carefully, what I'm saying is we hold some obligation to service, that is NOT the same as stating the population has a right to health care. I'd ramble more, but dinner's ready.


You are damned right you have the property rights to your own labor, just as I do. I am not saying that you have to service everyone who comes through the doors, I already know that I will be turning plenty of people away. I am saying that the government needs to divert money away from supporting lazy crack ***** who just happened to be born on this side of the border and needs to support the people who make up the infrastucture of this country.
 
TucsonDDS said:
...where as people that actually will appreciate the services provided should not have to worry about where to take their children when they get sick...Diverting money from your average gang-bangers gsw in the ___ would most likely pay for the little girl with osteosarcoma who has no insurance and whos parents are unable to pay for the services...So in essence, yes it should be a right for some and who cares about the others.


So...it's a right for those who appreciate it?...not sure I follow the logic, please clarify. It seems that if healthcare is a basic right for the little girl with osteosarc then it would be equally a right for the unappreciative gangbanger.

This whole thread is like a bad flashback to my dental school interview days...
 
ElDienteLoco said:
So...it's a right for those who appreciate it?...not sure I follow the logic, please clarify. It seems that if healthcare is a basic right for the little girl with osteosarc then it would be equally a right for the unappreciative gangbanger.

This whole thread is like a bad flashback to my dental school interview days...

No **** about the interview days. Maybe I don't see it so much as a "right" but a privledge or a "right" with requirements. Just like rights written into the constitution can be taken away from you, healthcare could have it's own set of requirements. I actually got this same crappy question at my interview for Arizona and had just as difficult a time explaining myself and my position on the subject.

Bottom line as far as I am concerned, If you work and contribute you should have the right to healthcare.
 
tx oms said:
Needs are something you must have for survival but not something that are guaranteed to you just b/c you've been born.

food is not guaranteed to you just because you're born, neither is the right to protect your body from things like rape. you said that we are born with equality in your original post, well equality means that we SHOULD all have access to healthcare which is essential to our survival in a long-term sense. I'm not talking about the kind of healthcare that patches up a symptom of a disease, I'm talking about widespread preventive health measures and supply of tools/treatments that are simple enough to be known to work effectively to treat otherwise devastating illnesses. That SHOULD be a right. Just like food and drinking water SHOULD be a right for everyone but isn't.
 
mlle said:
food is not guaranteed to you just because you're born,
Very observant. Didn't I say that?

mlle said:
neither is the right to protect your body from things like rape.
Actually, all humans have the right to self defense and most countries agree with that by making provisions for self protection in their laws.

mlle said:
you said that we are born with equality in your original post, well equality means that we SHOULD all have access to healthcare which is essential to our survival in a long-term sense. I'm not talking about the kind of healthcare that patches up a symptom of a disease, I'm talking about widespread preventive health measures and supply of tools/treatments that are simple enough to be known to work effectively to treat otherwise devastating illnesses. That SHOULD be a right. Just like food and drinking water SHOULD be a right for everyone but isn't.
Well, that's a nice political position but not reality. A right is something that is inherently guaranteed. No one in the world is guaranteed water or food. If you aren't guaranteed the two most basic needs of life why in the world would you be guaranteed healthcare?

BTW, equality means that all people have the same rights and born equal. What they do with their own lives after birth is up to them. The fact that some work harder and have better healthcare doesn't violate the right of equality.
 
TucsonDDS said:
So in essence, yes it should be a right for some and who cares about the others.
So, you have just defined a privelage, not a right.
 
1FutureDDS said:
I couldn't agree more. Why some people act this way nearly drives me crazy. It's a shame I let it affect me and cause my anger to boil towards people who are unhealthy.
It's a shame that you can only use poor allusions to make a point. Why not use logic?
 
tx oms said:
So, you have just defined a privelage, not a right.


So how is the Second Ammendment a right. This is something that can be taken away from you. It is also something that you do not have in all circumstances. Sounds more like the "privelage" to bear arms. How about finding me an actual definition of "right" stateing that it is universal to all. I couldn't find that definition so maybe they have different dictionaries in Texas.
 
Interesting thread. I agree with the OP that healthcare is not a basic human right.

However, governments have a duty towards their taxpayers to guarantee preventive healthcare measures like sanitation and safe drinking water. They also have a duty to guarantee access to secondary healthcare facilities to all who need them and have the means to pay for them. Hence all the fuss about recruiting docs/dentists to underserved areas.
 
tx oms said:
It's a shame that you can only use poor allusions to make a point. Why not use logic?

Why not use logic? If you eat everything in sight you are unhealthy. Therefore almost everyone is unhealthy.

Poor allusions? Have you ever had the dedication to stick out a diet and have good results? No, because you've been pounding away on the books. Hopefully when you're done with school you will be focused on a perfect clean diet to stay healthy.

Please refer to my post in this thread, http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=276331&page=2 to see how I feel about health. So yea, I see some logic AKA living a longer, more healthy life.

I don't even think you read my first reply, and instead chose to respond with one of your robot automated responses. Let me guess, you woke up this morning and shouted ALLUSION!!!!! Today I am going to find a situation where I can just blurt out the word allusion in a discussion, even if it makes no fuc*ing sense with what i'm talking about.
 
tx oms said:
It's a shame that you can only use poor allusions to make a point. Why not use logic?

ALLUSION:

Allusion is a brief reference to a person, event, or place, real or ficticious, or to a work of art. Casual reference to a famous historical or literary figure or event.
An allusion may be drawn from history, geography, literature, or religion.

Example:
Stephen Vincent Benet's story "By the Waters of Babylon" contains a direct reference to Psalm 137 in the Bible.

Not making any sense there buddy. I believe my accused "allusion", only involved me expressing my feelings towards being unhealthy aka, not an allusion, but more so an opinion. Good try with the word use though, thanks.

Judging by your avatar and your little comment above it, I can clearly see that you're the type of guy who listens to Dane Cook and then acts like he is Dane Cook. How many times have you quoted lines from the Retaliation CD acting like you made it up? I guess you could be using the thunderdome line from the movie "Waiting", but if you watched that movie, and have his picture, you must have heard his comedy. Therefore you are the guy who walks around the clinic saying things like "welcome to the thunderdome", and proceeding to giggle like a little school girl. THAT'S VERY LOGICAL TO ME!
 
tx oms said:
The fact that some work harder and have better healthcare doesn't violate the right of equality.

what about someone who isn't naturally intelligent enough to go to college so they get a job where they work their butts off for 70 hours a week in a back-breaking atmosphere, but still get no health insurance because their company doesn't offer it and they can't pay for it out of pocket because rent and food is a priority? isn't that person's lack of healthcare wrong? I mean they work hard, but just can't get there.

If you think that's wrong then it sounds like your idea is a sort of faschistic darwinian survival-of-the-fittest philosophy (and I mean survival in the raw sense), and I think that's wrong. The weak need help too - they're ppl too.
 
tx oms said:
I'm enjoying the debate in the race thread but in light of some of the more recent comments I thought I would start a new thread about access to healthcare.

Healthcare is not a right. We do not need to worry about recruiting doc/dentists to underserved areas. A right is something deserved simply for being human. You have a right to freedom, self preservation, equality, etc, but not CRRT for end-stage diabetic nephropathy.

Furthermore, healthcare is a service. If people in an "underserved" area want a doc they should be willing to pay him. Every business in America does demographic studies before opening b/c they want to make money. Why is it so amazing that docs don't want to work for free? There are people all around the world who never see a doctor yet in America we worry when someone doesn't get there Pap smear right on time.

Most of the people who can't afford to go to the doctor can afford to smoke, drink, and/or talk on a cell phone. Additionally, they often participate in activities that give them the very health problems for which they can't afford to see a doctor. Put down the bottle, the cigs, and the twinkie. Buy a pair of walking shoes.

A right is only a right because we say it is so. You may claim that something is a right based on two seperate premises. One is that their is a God in the universe and that that God has laid down fundamental laws which establish said rights. Truthfully this is the only possible source of human rights that are applicable to the entire human population. The only other sources of rights are man made and are created when any group of people gather together and designate a belief or an idea as a right. Then it becomes incumbant upon that group to uphold those rights and make them effective for all who are memebers of the group. Our government has established the rights that you speak of but these rights are only their because we say it is so and we have created an establishment for upholding these rights. The truth is that human history has shown that human beings strive for freedom and liberty, but once again, unless you beleive that God has established rights, then the only other possible source is our own designation of those rights by government. Can healthcare become a right? Yes, it can. Is it a right in this country right now? No, it is not.
 
I think we've pretty much got it right the way things are right now - anyone can get essential healthcare like emergency, pain and functional treatment through a number of government and volunteer programs. many people choose not to take advantage of these resources for a number of reasons (i just did a report on that for my public health class), but the opportunities are there. Then, the harder you work and the smarter you are with your life decisions, the more likely you are to be able to afford better care, and even elective treatments. this way we avoid spending too much money giving away treatment to people who are irresponsible and don't take care of their own health, and we reward more people who make good decisions and work hard. obviously there are exceptions to everything and it's not perfect and fair to all, but i think we're doing the best we can. We can't blame everything that is wrong with our healthcare on the doctors or the governement either, it is really the public that makes it impossible to design a good plan for everyone because the public always wants to take advantage and get something for nothing, not take care of themselves and not want to work but then expect the hard working people to give them equal care. these people are really what ruins it for those who honestly need and deserve help and have a hard time getting it - not people who believe equal healthcare for all is not a right.
 
but the system and the government are proponents of bad practices - pharmaceuticals are huge when preventive measures should be more important, nutritional advice is off, and even the bad official advice doesn't get funneled down to the general public, etc. the people who are responsible don't do a good job of educating and rewarding good behaviour.
 
Biogirl361 said:
I think we've pretty much got it right the way things are right now - anyone can get essential healthcare like emergency, pain and functional treatment through a number of government and volunteer programs. many people choose not to take advantage of these resources for a number of reasons (i just did a report on that for my public health class), but the opportunities are there. Then, the harder you work and the smarter you are with your life decisions, the more likely you are to be able to afford better care, and even elective treatments. this way we avoid spending too much money giving away treatment to people who are irresponsible and don't take care of their own health, and we reward more people who make good decisions and work hard. obviously there are exceptions to everything and it's not perfect and fair to all, but i think we're doing the best we can. We can't blame everything that is wrong with our healthcare on the doctors or the governement either, it is really the public that makes it impossible to design a good plan for everyone because the public always wants to take advantage and get something for nothing, not take care of themselves and not want to work but then expect the hard working people to give them equal care. these people are really what ruins it for those who honestly need and deserve help and have a hard time getting it - not people who believe equal healthcare for all is not a right.


i dont think we've got it right. if there's one thing that america needs to fix, it's healthcare. in your comments, i am afraid you forgot the biggest culprits: insurance companies and bureaucracy! those, coupled with trivial lawsuits drain the system in a big way.
pharmaceuticals in my opinion should get a tiny piece of the blame pie. we tend to blame them for everything just because it's fashionable and politically correct.
we also spend too much money on medical technology such as MRI instruments. hospitals have more than what they can suffice with. all in all, if the system involved less paperwork and less middlemen, it would be more efficient and less frustrating for everyone. and hopefully on one fine day, the government can reign on the insurance companies for once and for all
 
I don't think that healthcare should be a right. If healthcare ever becomes a right, the quality of healthcare provided and the advancements made in healthcare research (drugs, etc) will drastically diminish. Many people who feel entitled to anything (foodstamps, medicaid, welfare) take it for granted and abuse it causing costs to increase and therefore diminishing the benefit to patients and providers. If we keep healthcare private and a privelege, we will all be better served.

Some would argue that there are people who are not served because healthcare is not a right, and imply that these people would be taken care of under a system available to everyone--such a system doesn't exist and never will exist. Some folks will never be served.

Take a look at Europe's system. People who need to have critical tests often have to wait 4 to 6 months before a slot opens up. Meanwhile, these patients either worsen or remain in pain.

Doctors that run clinics that accept medicaid, often aren't reimbursed enough to cover their costs. Their seats often go empty because medicaid patients don't show up to appointments, and don't take the time to call. These same patients also make unreasonable demands on the dentist's time and staff when they do show up to their appointments.

A private, market-based system is the best option we have. I shudder to think what might happen if healthcare ever becomes a right.
 
Galen1 said:
Sure if it was magically free!

Covering the whole country is cost prohibitive b/c people will abuse.

Cost creates an incentive/disincentive program that keeps our high standard of care.

Money drives advancements in all healthcare.

Third World care for all or Modern Medicine for most?
 
JavadiCavity said:
I don't think that healthcare should be a right. If healthcare ever becomes a right, the quality of healthcare provided and the advancements made in healthcare research (drugs, etc) will drastically diminish. Many people who feel entitled to anything (foodstamps, medicaid, welfare) take it for granted and abuse it causing costs to increase and therefore diminishing the benefit to patients and providers. If we keep healthcare private and a privelege, we will all be better served.

Some would argue that there are people who are not served because healthcare is not a right, and imply that these people would be taken care of under a system available to everyone--such a system doesn't exist and never will exist. Some folks will never be served.

Take a look at Europe's system. People who need to have critical tests often have to wait 4 to 6 months before a slot opens up. Meanwhile, these patients either worsen or remain in pain.

Doctors that run clinics that accept medicaid, often aren't reimbursed enough to cover their costs. Their seats often go empty because medicaid patients don't show up to appointments, and don't take the time to call. These same patients also make unreasonable demands on the dentist's time and staff when they do show up to their appointments.

A private, market-based system is the best option we have. I shudder to think what might happen if healthcare ever becomes a right.



I respect your opinions but I disagree (In Canada the health care system is Public and it is superb). Here is my reasoning:

Health care needs to be universal and available to all. A government has a responsibility to maintain the wellbeing of its citizens no matter what their socioeconomic status. Here's a scenario for ya: A 65 year old millionaire receives early diagnosis on his prostate cancer through a PSA test. He has the prostatectomy, and is fully healthy. A working-class man of the same age also has prostate cancer. He cannot afford the PSA test, gets the run around from his HMO, manages the pain. Eventually he finally gets the diagnosis, the cancer is spread, he needs surgery AND radiation. The millionaire then not only has paid less (surgery only) but has a greater chance of survival. HOW IS THAT FAIR?

Now lets address quality of health care and research funding under a public system. All you have to do is look to Canada, which offers the latest technologies and has world-renowned specialists. As far as research goes, the health centres of the major PUBLIC Universities (Toronto, McGill, McMaster, UBC, Queens and many more) are world leaders in research.

As far as accessibility goes, noone is ever turned away in Canada. As long as you have some sort of legal status you will receive care, and very good care at that.

Finally if the thought of a public health care system makes you shudder, that's very unfortunate, because it is the best way to ensure the well-being of a population without bankrupting citizens. I know many families who would be living on the street if they had to treat their medical problems in a private system. Because of what I've seen firsthand, and what I've experienced myself, I am and will always be an advocate of public health care.
 
I am not sure that canada is great. There was an article in the cincinnati post awhile back about canadians traveling to the US for surgeries because they couldn't find a doc to do it there, not without waiting months anyway. The article stated that lots of canucks travel right across the border, but now it was getting so bad that they were coming to cinci to get treatment.

As far as to much technology, MRIs are not even enough, they do not show complete detail. My MRI did not show a huge tear in my labrum, for months I had no idea what was wrong until I decided to have surgery to find out, so more technology is needed
 
I have to agree with Galen. I grew up in Canada, and although the wait may be longer than if I came to a private center in the US, that is far outweighed by the success in the maintenance of the population's healthcare. If ppl want to cross the border and come down here to get something done, that is a luxury and not a right. But the fact that they cater to eveyone's needs as best as they can without descrimination against lower class people is what I consider equity and equality even in an imperfect sense.

I have to say, though, that is not the case with dentistry even in Canada.

Also, people there do not take it for granted and compromise their health through worse lifestyle choices because they have this safety net, at least not any more that people in a privatized system. the idea of ppl taking it for granted and thereby increasing costs due to bad choices, etc. is not what the focus should be on. It should be on teaching the public about the right kind of nutrition, lifestyle, and preventive measures. If we can instill a sense of responsibility in ppl for their health by giving them the tool of greater personal health understanding, then giving them the right to healthcare can only make them more empowered and grateful for what they have. Coming closer to a balance of health provision as a right for everyone is a good thing.
 
Galen1 said:
I respect your opinions but I disagree (In Canada the health care system is Public and it is superb). Here is my reasoning:

Health care needs to be universal and available to all. A government has a responsibility to maintain the wellbeing of its citizens no matter what their socioeconomic status. Here's a scenario for ya: A 65 year old millionaire receives early diagnosis on his prostate cancer through a PSA test. He has the prostatectomy, and is fully healthy. A working-class man of the same age also has prostate cancer. He cannot afford the PSA test, gets the run around from his HMO, manages the pain. Eventually he finally gets the diagnosis, the cancer is spread, he needs surgery AND radiation. The millionaire then not only has paid less (surgery only) but has a greater chance of survival. HOW IS THAT FAIR?

Now lets address quality of health care and research funding under a public system. All you have to do is look to Canada, which offers the latest technologies and has world-renowned specialists. As far as research goes, the health centres of the major PUBLIC Universities (Toronto, McGill, McMaster, UBC, Queens and many more) are world leaders in research.

As far as accessibility goes, noone is ever turned away in Canada. As long as you have some sort of legal status you will receive care, and very good care at that.

Finally if the thought of a public health care system makes you shudder, that's very unfortunate, because it is the best way to ensure the well-being of a population without bankrupting citizens. I know many families who would be living on the street if they had to treat their medical problems in a private system. Because of what I've seen firsthand, and what I've experienced myself, I am and will always be an advocate of public health care.


good points,

javadi also forgot the idea that a public system may very well be very prevention-oriented (to prevent costly sickness, as it becomes in the interest of gevernment to reduce tax money used for healthcare)....in a market system, we want more sickness (more demand) so that our services (stock) become more lucrative.
 
JavadiCavity said:
A private, market-based system is the best option we have.

i feel that this is an extreme statement that warrants well-thought out elaboration.
 
having made the comments above, i will side with those who contend that healthcare is NOT A RIGHT. however, healthcare should not be A PRIVILEGE!!....i agree with those who are in favor of a universal centralized insurance system in which all of us pay but all of us pay less, with an emphasis on prevention.
 
fightingspirit said:
i agree with those who are in favor of a universal centralized insurance system in which all of us pay but all of us pay less, with an emphasis on prevention.

cudos.
 
fightingspirit said:
i feel that this is an extreme statement that warrants well-thought out elaboration.

A private, market-based healthcare system is better because it drives all interested parties to maximize their utility. Of course you need government oversight to make sure one group does not abuse the other group, but I don't think the government should run the show. The last thing I want is politicians who have never spent a day in med school, dental school, etc. to start legislating and making decisions. They have no reason to make a good decision because they are not directly affected by their decisions(i.e. profits, expenses, disease, etc).

This is a good summary:
BrettBatchelor said:
Covering the whole country is cost prohibitive b/c people will abuse.

Cost creates an incentive/disincentive program that keeps our high standard of care.

Money drives advancements in all healthcare.

Third World care for all or Modern Medicine for most?

Essentially, healthcare providers have to do what is best for themselves and for patients, and vice versa. Although each party wants to have the advantage, competition keeps everyone on the same playing field (most of the time).
 
JavadiCavity said:
Essentially, healthcare providers have to do what is best for themselves and for patients, and vice versa. Although each party wants to have the advantage, competition keeps everyone on the same playing field (most of the time).

yes but this capitalistic outlook is more applicable to a business view of healthcare rather than an outlook to attain and maintain health on a broad scale.
 
mlle said:
yes but this capitalistic outlook is more applicable to a business view of healthcare rather than an outlook to attain and maintain health on a broad scale.
Those are two philosophical ideas on opposite sides of the spectrum. In order to get the full picture, you have to weigh both which is our current system.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
Those are two philosophical ideas on opposite sides of the spectrum. In order to get the full picture, you have to weigh both which is our current system.

i agree, but my point was to say that I think we should try to concentrate on the health aspect of it as a priority over the business aspect. I think that if we implement the proper sanctions to improve health through prevention and education, it will be worth it financially as well.
 
mlle said:
yes but this capitalistic outlook is more applicable to a business view of healthcare rather than an outlook to attain and maintain health on a broad scale.

Making it a right (interpreted as making it available to everyone at the expense of taxpayers) will swing the pendulum too far to one side. Quantity of healthcare provided would increase, but quality of healthcare provided would decrease.
 
mlle said:
i agree, but my point was to say that I think we should try to concentrate on the health aspect of it as a priority over the business aspect. I think that if we implement the proper sanctions to improve health through prevention and education, it will be worth it financially as well.
The problem with the prevention and education plan is that a lot of people just plain don't care about their health. They would rather have a cell phone and cable than health insurance. They would rather pay money for liposuction than put on a pair of running shoes. IMO, prevention and education can only go so far. It is a gross overestimate of the general public if you think that you can present facts to them and they can come to rational conclusions. I'll equate this to the ridiculous reliance people have on calculators these days.
 
JavadiCavity said:
If we keep healthcare private and a privelege, we will all be better served...

A private, market-based system is the best option we have. I shudder to think what might happen if healthcare ever becomes a right.

The broad statements that you made are quite interesting, especially since there is published research that seems to contradict your claims.

As you might know, the United Kingdom has the publicly funded National Health Service available to its population.

Recently, a study was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) which compared the healthcare outcomes in the United Kingdom and the United States. In the study, it found that Americans were generally much more unhealthy, showed higher biological markers of disease, and exhibited higher risk factors for disease than the English, regardless of socioeconomic status (education or income).

The study states that Americans spend $5274 per capita on healthcare while the English spend $2164 per capita in comparison. Obviously, throwing tons of money at a private healthcare system does not necessarily translate to better healthcare outcomes as you might believe. So is a privately funded healthcare system the best possible option for Americans? Does it result in better healthcare outcomes for the rich or the poor? This study seems to suggest otherwise.

If you're interested, here's the abstract from the article in JAMA:

Disease and Disadvantage in the United States and in England

James Banks, PhD; Michael Marmot, MD; Zoe Oldfield, MSc; James P. Smith, PhD

JAMA. 2006;295:2037-2045.

Context The United States spends considerably more money on health care than the United Kingdom, but whether that translates to better health outcomes is unknown.

Objective To assess the relative heath status of older individuals in England and the United States, especially how their health status varies by important indicators of socioeconomic position.

Design, Setting, and Participants We analyzed representative samples of residents aged 55 to 64 years from both countries using 2002 data from the US Health and Retirement Survey (n = 4386) and the English Longitudinal Study of Aging (n = 3681), which were designed to have directly comparable measures of health, income, and education. This analysis is supplemented by samples of those aged 40 to 70 years from the 1999-2002 waves of National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (n = 2097) and the 2003 wave of the Health Survey for England (n = 5526). These surveys contain extensive and comparable biological disease markers on respondents, which are used to determine whether differential propensities to report illness can explain these health differences. To ensure that health differences are not solely due to health issues in the black or Latino populations in the United States, the analysis is limited to non-Hispanic whites in both countries.

Main Outcome Measure Self-reported prevalence rates of several chronic diseases related to diabetes and heart disease, adjusted for age and health behavior risk factors, were compared between the 2 countries and across education and income classes within each country.

Results The US population in late middle age is less healthy than the equivalent British population for diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, myocardial infarction, stroke, lung disease, and cancer. Within each country, there exists a pronounced negative socioeconomic status (SES) gradient with self-reported disease so that health disparities are largest at the bottom of the education or income variants of the SES hierarchy. This conclusion is generally robust to control for a standard set of behavioral risk factors, including smoking, overweight, obesity, and alcohol drinking, which explain very little of these health differences. These differences between countries or across SES groups within each country are not due to biases in self-reported disease because biological markers of disease exhibit exactly the same patterns. To illustrate, among those aged 55 to 64 years, diabetes prevalence is twice as high in the United States and only one fifth of this difference can be explained by a common set of risk factors. Similarly, among middle-aged adults, mean levels of C-reactive protein are 20% higher in the United States compared with England and mean high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels are 14% lower. These differences are not solely driven by the bottom of the SES distribution. In many diseases, the top of the SES distribution is less healthy in the United States as well.

Conclusion Based on self-reported illnesses and biological markers of disease, US residents are much less healthy than their English counterparts and these differences exist at all points of the SES distribution.
 
Marshall2 said:
The broad statements that you made are quite interesting, especially since there is published research that seems to contradict your claims.

.

I attribute this to better health and genetics by the population in the UK not by how wonderful their health care is. I lived in Minnesota for 4 years and I can't tell you how many Canadians I heard tell me that the health care in "maple leaf" land isn't so wonderful. I don't see massive immigration from the "un-insured" and "healthcare seeking" of the US up north to Canada....in fact, I see tons of future healthcare professionals from Canada want to train and permanently reside in the US!

For all those who want national health coverage and want it bad enough, they should dedicate their lives to providing care to those people and not worry about the money....it is a free country, nothing is stopping all of you from dedicating the rest of your life to treating the indigent.... go right ahead. No one will stop you and I'll even nominate you for the "big-heart" award but please don't make those of us who don't believe in this "idea" of "healthcare as a right" practice that way.... It reminds me of Bill Clinton who attacked the tax cuts of the current administration.... "President Bush is giving money back to the richest one percent of America at the expense of the middle class...." I said to myself, well nothing is stopping you Mr. Former President from giving extra each year to the Federal Government, but quit requiring it from everyone who doesn't agree with you. So to all of you who feel strongly, dedicate your life to the indigent. Open up your clinics, give extra each year to Uncle Sam, no one is stopping you....

Me personally, I will philanthropically help those who I please. It might be more than you, it might be less than you (I won't really know because it is none of my business what you decide to do out of the goodness of your heart :) ). But what I do to "help" the unfortunate is my business. I don't need the Federal Government or "wanna-be Canadians/Europeaners" requiring it of me. Go some where else if you think it is really better and if you think it makes that huge of a difference... Why isn't everyone leaving this horrible country of such rudimentary health care for the paradise of other "promised lands"?
 
Marshall2 said:
The broad statements that you made are quite interesting, especially since there is published research that seems to contradict your claims.

Good article. But, I don't agree that it illustrates that one system serves it population better than another. A quick scan of news articles available from every source on the globe via google news, will give any reader a good idea of the benefits and drawbacks of each system. The healthcare system we have in the states is very good. I wouldn't go any other place in the world for healthcare, would any of you?
 
esclavo said:
I attribute this to better health and genetics by the population in the UK not by how wonderful their health care is. I lived in Minnesota for 4 years and I can't tell you how many Canadians I heard tell me that the health care in "maple leaf" land isn't so wonderful. I don't see massive immigration from the "un-insured" and "healthcare seeking" of the US up north to Canada....in fact, I see tons of future healthcare professionals from Canada want to train and permanently reside in the US!

For all those who want national health coverage and want it bad enough, they should dedicate their lives to providing care to those people and not worry about the money....it is a free country, nothing is stopping all of you from dedicating the rest of your life to treating the indigent.... go right ahead. No one will stop you and I'll even nominate you for the "big-heart" award but please don't make those of us who don't believe in this "idea" of "healthcare as a right" practice that way.... It reminds me of Bill Clinton who attacked the tax cuts of the current administration.... "President Bush is giving money back to the richest one percent of America at the expense of the middle class...." I said to myself, well nothing is stopping you Mr. Former President from giving extra each year to the Federal Government, but quit requiring it from everyone who doesn't agree with you. So to all of you who feel strongly, dedicate your life to the indigent. Open up your clinics, give extra each year to Uncle Sam, no one is stopping you....

Me personally, I will philanthropically help those who I please. It might be more than you, it might be less than you (I won't really know because it is none of my business what you decide to do out of the goodness of your heart :) ). But what I do to "help" the unfortunate is my business. I don't need the Federal Government or "wanna-be Canadians/Europeaners" requiring it of me. Go some where else if you think it is really better and if you think it makes that huge of a difference... Why isn't everyone leaving this horrible country of such rudimentary health care for the paradise of other "promised lands"?

Excellant points my omfs brother.
 
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