HELP. General Surgery Internship Question

[ShellyLou]

In the interest of full diclosures, I'm not a doctor, don't know any doctors and I don't even like blood. I'm a writer. Part time of course, so long as there are bills to pay an all that fun stuff.

This forum has turned out to be a gold mine to flesh out a credible fictional doctor out of my absolute lack of knowlege on the subject. I put her through medical school and interested her in surgery and I actually sounded like I knew what the heck I was talking about. It was nirvana.

I was feeling very proud of myself for not using Grey's Anatomy as a point of reference (I figured anyone working average hundred hour weeks was probably not going to have much energy left for all that drama anyway) except now I have a character that's more or less taken up for the next five years.

Some questions in no particular order:

1) Is there such a thing as a vacation for a general surgery intern? I ask because five years of 80-120 hour weeks seems like a long time to go without the occassional trip to a sandy beach to disconnect. Is it really just the one free day a week for 5 years?

2) I hear 80 hours, I hear 120? What's a good average to go by? I'm most comfortable with writing about the character's life outside of work/profession.

3) Anyway to get a general surgery intern's typical weekly schedule from one of you fine people?

-I'd love detail like: Monday I woke up at 5 a.m. in hospital by 6 a.m. rounds till 6:11 and so on and so forth until quitting time etc.

-or if that's too much to ask then just clocked in this many hours on Monday, this many hours on Tuesday on call Wednesday, rinse and repeat.

Thank you for any help beforehand,

Shelly.

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[zinjanthropus]

1) Is there such a thing as a vacation for a general surgery intern? I ask because five years of 80-120 hour weeks seems like a long time to go without the occassional trip to a sandy beach to disconnect. Is it really just the one free day a week for 5 years?

2) I hear 80 hours, I hear 120? What's a good average to go by? I'm most comfortable with writing about the character's life outside of work/profession.

3) Anyway to get a general surgery intern's typical weekly schedule from one of you fine people?



Shelly.

1. of course there is vacation - many pgy1s get 2 weeks and it usually goes up 1 week per year from there.....
2. 80-90 is what most people i know are doing right now
3. the schedules can easily be found on dept websites -- just go to some university program residency pages and poke around a bit...you'll find all the info about daily activities, week-to-week, month-to-month, etc..salary, vacation - it's all out there.

 

[TxMed]

this might be helpful.

http://www.facs.org/residencysearch/



tm

 

[ShellyLou]

You rock. See, it just didn't occur to me that there would be a weeklong vacation involved.

 

[avgjoe]

You rock. See, it just didn't occur to me that there would be a weeklong vacation involved.

This is totally cool.. what book/series is this for? I'd love to read it! (and see what our student doc ramblings have turned into )

 

[tussy]

To address the vacation issue: I just finished a 5 year gen surg residency and i was lucky that I got 4 weeks vacation/year. Over the past few years I've actually managed 2 trips south/year to a nice warm carribean island. I call them my "mental health breaks". How do i afford it on a meager resident's salary with ++ student loans? i just borrow more money from the bank!! Well, I also go online to the selloffvacations sites and book it last minute really cheap, and I don't even care which island I go to, as long as there is a beach, some nice umbrella drinks and a direct flight from my city!
Most of the other single residents in my program do the same.

As for free time outside of residency - well there isn't much. My last 5 years are a blur. i go to work, come home, sleep, eat and start all over again. There is the occasional "surgery party" which usually ends in the police arriving because we party so rarely we really make a "big effort" when we get the chance. The annual surgery Christmas party is infamous in my city; in fact it has to be a house party these days because no venues in the city will accept our reservation. The spring "golf day" is equally crazy. Apart from that, the surgery residents get together after work for dinner or brunch frequently - at those occasions we complain about call, our staff, fellow residents, patients, etc. Other events include going sailing with our staff (i trained on the east coast in a big sailing town, and a few staff had big sailboats and would take the residents out sailing on the occasional weekend in the summer)

I hope that gives you some more ideas for your writting. Good luck. If you need more then PM me. I have 5 years worth of stories that i'd love to share.

 

[kaos]

There is the occasional "surgery party" which usually ends in the police arriving because we party so rarely we really make a "big effort" when we get the chance. The annual surgery Christmas party is infamous in my city; in fact it has to be a house party these days because no venues in the city will accept our reservation. The spring "golf day" is equally crazy.

General surgery? I had no idea you guys could be such crazy party animals!

 

[Winged Scapula]

Some questions in no particular order:

1) Is there such a thing as a vacation for a general surgery intern? I ask because five years of 80-120 hour weeks seems like a long time to go without the occassional trip to a sandy beach to disconnect. Is it really just the one free day a week for 5 years?

Of course there is. Most programs offer 3 weeks rather than the 2 weeks noted by a poster above. Senior residents may get another few days to attend a national conference or to present a paper at a conference. The concept of getting more vacation as you become more senior is NOT typical.

What constitues a "week" will vary, with some programs allowing you both "bumper" weekends, for a total of nine days and others giving you exactly a week, expecting you back for 6 am rounds on Saturday.

While you are not supposed to be penalized via the call schedule for taking your vacation (ie, doing more call to make up for being gone), it does happen.

I managed to travel to Turkey, Morrocco, Las Vegas, California and several other less exotic places during my residency.

2) I hear 80 hours, I hear 120? What's a good average to go by? I'm most comfortable with writing about the character's life outside of work/profession.

Since July 2003 all ACGME accredited programs have been mandated to the 80 hr work week, averaged over 4 weeks. Before then it was not unusual to work in excess of 120 hrs and "old-timers" like myself have experienced it. The average varies widely - with regards to rotation (there are some rotations which are less rigorous on hours) and program. Many programs are hours-compliant but many are not. A recent study found that less than 50 percent of residents (all fields combined) reported their program being in complicance "most of the time". That means most of the programs are not in compliance with the work hours most of the time.

For those out of compliance its hard to pick a good average, but between 90 and 100 is probably right for most. Again, many programs are compliant and this would be too high, but for the large number that are not, this is probably a good average - again it would vary week to week, and rotation to rotation.

3) Anyway to get a general surgery intern's typical weekly schedule from one of you fine people?

-I'd love detail like: Monday I woke up at 5 a.m. in hospital by 6 a.m. rounds till 6:11 and so on and so forth until quitting time etc.

-or if that's too much to ask then just clocked in this many hours on Monday, this many hours on Tuesday on call Wednesday, rinse and repeat.

Thank you for any help beforehand,

Shelly.

I will let current interns and residents answer that for you because my hours would reflect the old system and a program not in compliance. The hours will change and reflect your characters growth as a surgical resident. While the interns may come into the hospital earlier, the senior and Chief residents will often stay later because they have to finish work for the team, attend administrative meetings, see consults, or round with attendings when the junior residents have gone home. The senior and Chief residents will often take every night home call as back up for the service, so its not the luxury it seems - ie, you are called and it can be frequent and may be woken every hour and still expected to function at a high level the next day. It would not be unheard of for a Chief resident to complain that they'd rather be in house call with the junior residents because at least they would get to go home post call!

Thank you for not using ANY tv shows, especially Grey's Anatomy, as your frame of reference. The medical experts these shows hire are obviously out of touch with the reality of residency or have no shame in wildly bending it to fit their tv audience. Residency is much more boring and if shown as it really exists, would be a ratings disaster. The biggest goof is having the interns a) act like they know what they are doing b) act like they are trained in every specialty in the world (surgical interns are not delivering babies in cabs or even the ED) and c) having sex with every creature that walks by. I am sure you will try and make your character more realistic - tired but still interested in doing a good job, possessing of a dark , even macabre sense of humor and slowly gaining weight while missing the gym and raiding the vending machines at all hours of the night!

 

[SLUser11]

Actually, my program here in Kansas is similar to Grey's Anatomy, except we have alot more sex in real life than is shown on the show. We'll often have sex with eachother even while scrubbed in. Also, instead of a columnar or pyramidal residency system, we just have 6 interns, one chief resident and alot of attendings in other surgical specialties.

On another note, I recently got into this series and decided it would make my Tivo list, but it's really turning into a chick show, with the three main girls getting all the screen time and an abundance of girl-empowerment statements. I want less sex in the city, and more exploding bodies....

To the OP: please include some exploding bodies in your book.

 

[Winged Scapula]

We'll just call you "Dr. McDreamy", eh?!

 

[supercut]

To address the vacation issue: I just finished a 5 year gen surg residency and i was lucky that I got 4 weeks vacation/year. Over the past few years I've actually managed 2 trips south/year to a nice warm carribean island. I call them my "mental health breaks". How do i afford it on a meager resident's salary with ++ student loans? i just borrow more money from the bank!! Well, I also go online to the selloffvacations sites and book it last minute really cheap, and I don't even care which island I go to, as long as there is a beach, some nice umbrella drinks and a direct flight from my city!
Most of the other single residents in my program do the same.

As for free time outside of residency - well there isn't much. My last 5 years are a blur. i go to work, come home, sleep, eat and start all over again. There is the occasional "surgery party" which usually ends in the police arriving because we party so rarely we really make a "big effort" when we get the chance. The annual surgery Christmas party is infamous in my city; in fact it has to be a house party these days because no venues in the city will accept our reservation. The spring "golf day" is equally crazy. Apart from that, the surgery residents get together after work for dinner or brunch frequently - at those occasions we complain about call, our staff, fellow residents, patients, etc. Other events include going sailing with our staff (i trained on the east coast in a big sailing town, and a few staff had big sailboats and would take the residents out sailing on the occasional weekend in the summer)

I hope that gives you some more ideas for your writting. Good luck. If you need more then PM me. I have 5 years worth of stories that i'd love to share.

You lucky dog. Our department Christmas party is a very subduded affair held at the Chairman's house...kind of the sort of party that people come to because they feel obligated, not because it's fun.

 

[AlternateSome1]

in hospital by 6 a.m. rounds till 6:11

If only...

 

[Winged Scapula]

If only...

more like, "rounds until 6:11 pm", eh?

 

[medstudent99]

do any of u guys or gals where those ipod things to work, i used to until i started going deaf and the nurses were always screaming at me to take them off

 

[Blade28]

Uh, no.