Help meeeeeee: Wake Forest vs. Virginia Tech

[CALFMAN]

A bit about me: 26 y.o. male, grew up and went to college in small Northeastern towns (don’t feel need to be in large city), extensive research experience, love the outdoors (running, mountain biking, soccer), completely unsure of specialty at this time


Wake Forest School of Medicine
Pros

• More well established (founded 1902), more NIH funding, more well known
• US News Research Ranking #47
• Likely better matching for residency due to points above
• TRUE pass/fail pre-clinical
• Jetson’s level facilities, all very modern and nice-looking—also everything is in one building (lectures, anatomy labs, simulation center)
• Class size 150ish (pro in the sense that there are more people to meet)
• Winston-Salem (pop. 244,000) a bit nicer of a city, more refined, better grocery stores (TJ’s!)
• Not too much structured mandatory class time, lectures all recorded
• Very easy to find research, even outside of the Medical Student Research Program which happens over the first summer (not mandatory)
• Seems to be about 4-5 weeks of dedicated study time for Step 1
• 9.5 weeks of summer between M1 and M2 (yes I would take every minute of that off)
• Close to airports in Greensboro (30 min) and Charlotte (1 hr)

Cons

• Anecdotal, but have heard a few iffy things about administration (not as responsive to requests/accommodations as some students would like)—this could be sampling bias
• Tuition is $62,425
• Does not seem like a ton to do outdoorsy wise in immediate vicinity of Winston-Salem (e.g. mountain biking, hiking, swimming)—would have to drive a few hours which would not have time to do as often as I'd like
• Rent likely in range of $1,200-$1,400 for singles
• School starts July 5 (and commit to enroll deadline is June 15)—normally this wouldn’t be a factor, but I am still on the waitlist for my top choice (Vermont) and may not hear back til July

Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine

Pros

• P/F pre-clinical but with honors (no cap on how many can get honors)
• Very nice bike/running path that goes along the river going thru the city
• Mandatory research project to be completed by graduation—huge focus of Virginia Tech, and why I was initially drawn here
• Mountains very close by, stellar mountain biking / hiking—won’t have to travel as far to find my fix
• Administration supposedly VERY responsive to students (given small class size)
• Tuition is $56,238 (PLUS every student gets $15,000 off tuition for the first year)
• This one is BIG time: One week off after each block to be used however you’d need/like—remediation for exams, extra study time, vacation, leisure
• Based on the few students I’ve met, I feel that I mesh a bit more with their culture—a bit older, more experiences under their belts
• Rent likely in range of $800-$1,200 for singles
• Based on this data, Virginia Tech actually has better Step 1 and 2 scores compared to Wake (not sure how reliable this, given it’s only one year of data) ()
• School starts July 25, with no commit to enroll deadline—so have longer to wait on Vermont waitlist

Cons

• Less well established (founded 2007), less funding, less well known
• US News Research Ranking #82
• Likely harder matching, though it still seems good for how new/small the school is
• Class size 49, which is a pro in some regards (easier to approach administration, more faculty time) but also a con (fewer people to meet)
• Roanoke (pop. 100,000) is “up and coming” as they say, has a lot of nice aspects and money flowing in (particularly as an outdoor rec city), but not as well-put together
• Very PBL focused—this is somewhat of a pro (I do think I will enjoy it), but putting as a con here since it seems like it takes up a significant amount of time during each week
• Lectures, anatomy labs, and simulation centers all in separate buildings—5 min drive between anatomy labs and medical school
• Seems to only be 3-4 weeks of dedicated study time for Step 1—but current students say this can easily be extended if you ask admin
• Only 4 week break between M1 and M2 (3 weeks of research after exams—but maybe could be remote?)
• Airport in Roanoke but expensive and not many flights, otherwise have to go to DC or Greensboro

Summary: Sorry I realize this is a lot of info. Bottom line is that the combo of research focus, culture, week off after blocks, and the outdoor activities around Roanoke makes Virginia Tech more appealing to me. However, I am also very drawn to the outstanding facilities and overall higher prestige at Wake, particularly when it comes to matching—I’m just not sure how much better it really is. Thanks for your insights!!

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[m1redsox]

Biased as an M3 at Wake, but something you didn’t mention (which is pretty vital for matching competitive specialties) is the lack of residency programs in subspecialties at VT when compared to the many well-ranked residency programs at Wake/Atrium - top 30 programs in Ortho, derm, Ophtho, plastics, anesthesia, EM, rads, etc.

Since you are most likely to match your home program, it is pretty important to have a home program in your specialty—especially when considering mentorship and LORs.

 

[CALFMAN]

Biased as an M3 at Wake, but something you didn’t mention (which is pretty vital for matching competitive specialties) is the lack of residency programs in subspecialties at VT when compared to the many well-ranked residency programs at Wake/Atrium - top 30 programs in Ortho, derm, Ophtho, plastics, anesthesia, EM, rads, etc.

Since you are most likely to match your home program, it is pretty important to have a home program in your specialty—especially when considering mentorship and LORs.

That's a good point—thanks! Since I am quite unsure of what I am interested in, it's not something I had put as much thought into.

At this point I'm also not too keen on staying in either Winston Salem or Roanoke for residency (obviously that could change, for many reasons), but it's something to consider for sure

 

[CALFMAN]

Biased as an M3 at Wake, but something you didn’t mention (which is pretty vital for matching competitive specialties) is the lack of residency programs in subspecialties at VT when compared to the many well-ranked residency programs at Wake/Atrium - top 30 programs in Ortho, derm, Ophtho, plastics, anesthesia, EM, rads, etc.

Since you are most likely to match your home program, it is pretty important to have a home program in your specialty—especially when considering mentorship and LORs.

Also go Sox

 

[m1redsox]

Go Sox! Haha yeah it obviously doesn’t require you to stay there, but it is much easier to match in general if you have a home program with physicians in that specialty who can mentor you and write you letters.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Tough choice. I have some experience with VT via a friend. Their average Step scores have been quite high --- I mean they compare well with some real heavy hitter med schools. They match pretty well --- surprisingly well I would say for being such a new / small school. The class size does provide for more interaction with faculty and less competition for opportunities like mentoring, shadowing, extracurriculars, etc. And when it comes to residency application, that small class size allows for more individual attention and help with preparation, letters, etc.

For outdoor rec stuff, I don't think you can beat VT. Biking and hiking (and craft beer) are part of the culture. You're literally like a 15 minute drive from Appalachian Trail trailheads. Shenandoah Natl Park nearby, and Roanoke is 5 minutes off the Blue Ridge Parkway.

They do PBL there and while it is time consuming, I've heard good things from my friend. Roanoke is a pretty cool place and cost of living is quite low.

I don't have much familiarity with Wake Forest but it's a solid school. You can't make a bad choice here. Vermont sounds like your top choice but not sure it is stronger than either of these two schools.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I’d probably go with WF due to the home residencies but it’s not a clear cut case as prestige seem to be roughly equal for both

 

[m1redsox]

I’d probably go with WF due to the home residencies but it’s not a clear cut case as prestige seem to be roughly equal for both

Prestige is not equal for both. WF is top 50 and receives $100 million in NIH research funding. VT is brand new and receives very little national funding.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Prestige is not equal for both. WF is top 50 and receives $100 million in NIH research funding. VT is brand new and receives very little national funding.

I feel like when you normalize for class size, match lists look the same. There have been academic studies and numerous posts on this site saying that prestige is an extreme boost for residency apps but is limited to about the top 30-40 schools.

Case in point, wake forest had 7 prelim only matches this year (indicating that at least 7 people didn’t match their preferred specialty—because nobody matches these w/o a categorical/advanced position unless forced). So 7 had to either SOAP or fell on rank lists for their preferred speciality and only matched prelim.

That rate is similar to or worse than most lower tier schools (both based on research funding and PD ranking) and much higher than regional schools like Vanderbilt, UVA, Duke, Emory. At Duke 0 matched prelim only, looks like 2 did at UVA (closest peer according to rating).

Sure, I mean if you want to go based on which has a higher usnews ranking or pd ranking it is wake, but if that prestige doesn’t materialize into better results, OP shouldn’t base his/her choice off of this.

 

[m1redsox]

I feel like when you normalize for class size, match lists look the same. There have been academic studies and numerous posts on this site saying that prestige is an extreme boost for residency apps but is limited to about the top 30-40 schools.

Case in point, wake forest had 7 prelim only matches this year (indicating that at least 7 people didn’t match their preferred specialty—because nobody matches these w/o a categorical/advanced position unless forced). So 7 had to either SOAP or fell on rank lists for their preferred speciality and only matched prelim.

That rate is similar to or worse than most lower tier schools (both based on research funding and PD ranking) and much higher than regional schools like Vanderbilt, UVA, Duke, Emory. At Duke 0 matched prelim only, looks like 2 did at UVA (closest peer according to rating).

Sure, I mean if you want to go based on which has a higher usnews ranking or pd ranking it is wake, but if that prestige doesn’t materialize into better results, OP shouldn’t base his/her choice off of this.

OP also should not base his decision off of one match list. Match lists vary widely by year according to student interest and caliber. To prove that point, you mentioned UVA’s match list. Look at their 2021 list. They had like 9 prelims/TYs while Wake only had 2 (yet no one is going to argue that Wake is more prestigious than UVA). On top of that, tons of people SOAP into FM and IM programs. Match lists (outside the T30) have very little to do with the school’s name.

In the prestige category, Wake gets the edge because VT is brand new while Wake is well established, ranked higher by the PDs who control the match, well-known for its research, and has well-respected residency programs in almost every specialty. Having home programs matters a lot. Students who want Ophtho from VT will have to do away rotations at UVA and VCU for LORs from attendings who barely know them. Meanwhile, at Wake you have 4 years with your home department.

Prestige based on research is important too because students at research hubs will, undoubtedly, have more opportunities to publish, which is vital for matching competitively.

At the end of the day though, I don’t think OP should only make their decision based on prestige. I was only saying that Wake is definitely the more respected school in medicine since you mentioned it as a contributing factor.