HELP! MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova

[JeyRo]

IMHO, the economic picture for the medium term for this country is stagnant job growth for most, low or dropping wages, and deflation of the kind that's plagued Japan for the past several decades (with food and fuel being exceptions, I guess, for now). That means saddling yourself with enormous amounts of debt to get a degree from a questionable school in a field that's oversaturated is a real dubious move.

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[Duck Duck Goose]

2 things

1 - Be sure to follow up with these programs about their match rates after today. This year was particularly bad for internship match (continuing the trend), so you want to know how these programs are doing in the numbers game. Don't rely on last year's match rate. Get the details now.

2 - Anyone read the article in the Boston Globe (http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...e-expensive/gNl6prWo5TcY514mpIpPXL/story.html) about rising tuition rates being driven by the availability of federal aid?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

DDG...thanks for the link, I'll check it out over lunch.

More generally...the 'free' and 'cheap' availability of $ is a huge problem. There were some good articles about for-profit institutions that target active duty soldiers and recently retired Veterans to maximize their GI benefits. They max out the tuition for technical school training, the tax payer foots the bill, and often the student still cannot get employed because the training is not sufficient to meet the private sector requirements/expectations.

 

[O Gurl]

should be a crime.

Yes. That is what I should have said. It's just plain wrong.

 

[PsyDLICSW]

I have gotten into all of the above schools (MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova) and want some of your opinions. Right now I am between NOVA and MSPP. I live in Miami so NOVA seems like a good fit for me but when I went to the MSPP interview I knew I would have to make a tough decision. The main reason holding me back from MSPP right now is their 2 half year internships I saw on their website in lieu of the full year internship. And to clarify, the Argosy University I was accepted to is the university located in Tampa, Fl.

If FIT refers to the Florida Institute of Technology, then I would go there because it is a University Based program at a public university, which means possible funding and smaller cohorts. I would not recommend going to a professional school such as Argosy or MSPP. They do not have good reputations on this forum or in the APPIC match.

 

[4410]

Conversely, PhD programs who exploit their graduate students by paying low wages for student or research assistanships is tantamount to the gang bosses hiring special needs kids to sell drugs on the streets. Moreover, it perpetuates low quality educational opportunities for the undergraduates attending these substandard classes with student teachers having minimal at best teaching skills.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for downgrading the quality of APA accredited clinical psychology programs, and this is one reason for all of the problems in the field of psychology. Misguided psychologists with power-mongering turf battles who could care less about the services they provide to clients with emotional and behavioral concerns.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Conversely, PhD programs who exploit their graduate students by paying low wages for student or research assistanships is tantamount to the gang bosses hiring special needs kids to sell drugs on the streets. Moreover, it perpetuates low quality educational opportunities for the undergraduates attending these substandard classes with student teachers having minimal at best teaching skills.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for downgrading the quality of APA accredited clinical psychology programs, and this is one reason for all of the problems in the field of psychology. Misguided psychologists with power-mongering turf battles who could care less about the services they provide to clients with emotional and behavioral concerns.

At my university (obviously n=1), it's the grad-level instructors who generally receive some of the highest student ratings (which may or may not quantify actual quality of instruction, of course). Additionally, all grad students are required to take some type of "Teaching of _____" class, depending on their discipline, prior to being an instructor of record. Now, I will concede that undergrads could feel somewhat cheated if they attend a university thinking they're going to receive instruction by doctoral-level professors, and instead have some classes taught by graduate instructors.

Then again, two wrongs don't make a right. Research/teaching assistants may not get paid much, but that doesn't make it any more objectively right for professional programs to charge their students hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition and fees. As for powering-mongering turf battles, that does occur somewhat, but in general, the concern appears more to be about the quality of the training these programs are providing. And the reasons for that concern are a) patient/client welfare, and b) maintaining professional respectability with other mental health and medical providers and researchers.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You really need to either learn to back up your comments or learn that it's best not to speak when you don't know what you're talking about. You continue to spout ridiculous and flat out false claims.

At least he is consistant about it.

--

In regard to FIT...a friend of mine did her Ph.D. there (Psych I/O) ~6 years ago, and she had good things to say about their Psych Dept. I know she was able to take additional stats courses through other depts, which is always nice for folks who have interests that go above and beyond what is typically offered in a program. She had both RA and TA positions, though I'm not sure how much they covered.

Friends of mine at NSU took classes in other depts, though I'm not sure how easy/hard it was to make happen, as the NSU administration can be picky about stuff like that. I know there have been research studies done with the school of pharmacy and school of medicine, so there are at least opportunities outside of the dept. to do work.

 

[erg923]

I think 4410 is on the verge of being booted. Finally...

 

[KayJay85]

Conversely, PhD programs who exploit their graduate students by paying low wages for student or research assistanships is tantamount to the gang bosses hiring special needs kids to sell drugs on the streets. Moreover, it perpetuates low quality educational opportunities for the undergraduates attending these substandard classes with student teachers having minimal at best teaching skills.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for downgrading the quality of APA accredited clinical psychology programs, and this is one reason for all of the problems in the field of psychology. Misguided psychologists with power-mongering turf battles who could care less about the services they provide to clients with emotional and behavioral concerns.

I am going to assume this was an attempt at sarcasm. I do not think it is worthwhile to debate you point-by-point because I still doubt you are really in the field of psychology (just given the inaccuracies of your posts).

However, for others who might come across this thread:

In the current economic and healthcare climate, it would be absolutely foolish to enroll in any program that would leave you in massive debt (NO tuition waivers and/or stipends); takes in cohorts of more than 15; and has anything less than 75-80% avg. match rate at APA-accredited internships... and that last figure is being generous. Psychology has made our field vulnerable to mid-level encroachment and there ain't much we can do about that now. If you are looking to just "help people" and provide therapy, then do so with a master's degree. If you want to get solid training in everything else that sets psychologists apart (research; assessment; potential for administration; teaching) then go to a real program. A real program is university-based, funded, requires competitive GRE scores and a dissertation; and has good outcomes. Period. A real program is also very competitive to get into. Even if it means soliciting feedback, waiting out a year or two, and reapplying, you will be much better off with a real degree in psychology than with a diploma mill certificate. The situation out here is getting really ugly really fast. Even competent psychologists with solid training are having a hard time securing good paying faculty and staff psychologist positions. Even our VA's compensationn and pension job that was only advertised for 2 weeks received nearly 60 applicants who all met the basic VA criteria (APA program and internship). For those who don't know, compensation and pension is like the middle circle of Hell. Can you imagine how hard it would be to set up a private practice or land any decent paying job if you are coming from a non-accredited internship site? Or if you are in one of those programs that so poorly prepared you that you have to take the EPPP 5 *bleeping* times?!

Save yourself. Save your money. Save our field.

If you cannot get into a real program. Do not come into psychology.

Thanks for listening.

 

[4410]

I'm from Florida. FIT is private. I don't think there's any funding there.

FIT is a private university and I think their clinical psychology program is a PsyD program. One of the faculty at my school graduated from FIT with a PsyD and she indicated that it was very rigourous as you take 15 hours per semester the first two-three years and begin your practicum rotations your first year. It is APA accredited and she got an APA accredited internship at Colombia University Medical School. She was very happy with her training and the faculty at FIT.

 

[zzzz2]

Conversely, PhD programs who exploit their graduate students by paying low wages for student or research assistanships is tantamount to the gang bosses hiring special needs kids to sell drugs on the streets. Moreover, it perpetuates low quality educational opportunities for the undergraduates attending these substandard classes with student teachers having minimal at best teaching skills.

You should be ashamed of yourselves for downgrading the quality of APA accredited clinical psychology programs, and this is one reason for all of the problems in the field of psychology. Misguided psychologists with power-mongering turf battles who could care less about the services they provide to clients with emotional and behavioral concerns.

Please review the core principles and the developmental process of academia and the research field. Ph.D. programs do not "exploit" their graduate students until the arrival of professional schools that offer Ph.D. and charge a fortune. Ph.D. programs are meant to be funded in exchange for the intellectual contributions of the students in terms of research and teaching. Your analogy of "hiring special needs to sell drugs" is appalling. I, a meager individual on an anonymous forum, am confident that your poorly informed opinion will truly "downgrade" psychology in the public arena and is a true testament to the quality of certain psychology programs that need to be weeded out.

 

[4410]

I am going to assume this was an attempt at sarcasm. I do not think it is worthwhile to debate you point-by-point because I still doubt you are really in the field of psychology (just given the inaccuracies of your posts).

However, for others who might come across this thread:

In the current economic and healthcare climate, it would be absolutely foolish to enroll in any program that would leave you in massive debt (NO tuition waivers and/or stipends); takes in cohorts of more than 15; and has anything less than 75-80% avg. match rate at APA-accredited internships... and that last figure is being generous. Psychology has made our field vulnerable to mid-level encroachment and there ain't much we can do about that now. If you are looking to just "help people" and provide therapy, then do so with a master's degree. If you want to get solid training in everything else that sets psychologists apart (research; assessment; potential for administration; teaching) then go to a real program. A real program is university-based, funded, requires competitive GRE scores and a dissertation; and has good outcomes. Period. A real program is also very competitive to get into. Even if it means soliciting feedback, waiting out a year or two, and reapplying, you will be much better off with a real degree in psychology than with a diploma mill certificate. The situation out here is getting really ugly really fast. Even competent psychologists with solid training are having a hard time securing good paying faculty and staff psychologist positions. Even our VA's compensationn and pension job that was only advertised for 2 weeks received nearly 60 applicants who all met the basic VA criteria (APA program and internship). For those who don't know, compensation and pension is like the middle circle of Hell. Can you imagine how hard it would be to set up a private practice or land any decent paying job if you are coming from a non-accredited internship site? Or if you are in one of those programs that so poorly prepared you that you have to take the EPPP 5 *bleeping* times?!

Save yourself. Save your money. Save our field.

If you cannot get into a real program. Do not come into psychology.

Thanks for listening.

Really----so APA accredited program do not produce "Real Psychologist!" You are so funny..... Another misguided power mongering turf battle issues arrives with such broad generalizations. How in the world can you generalize that an APA accredited program in a FSPP does not provide qualified psychologists? I believe APA is a private for profit corporation with income in the 200 million dollar range per year. Is APA not the same as a private for profit company that has a FSPP? Many Universities have multimillion dollar grants from private philatrophist or political agencies. Are they not making millions of dollars under the guise of being a public university non profit instituition?

 

[KayJay85]

Really----so APA accredited program do not produce "Real Psychologist!" You are so funny..... Another misguided power mongering turf battle issues arrives with such broad generalizations. How in the world can you generalize that an APA accredited program in a FSPP does not provide qualified psychologists? I believe APA is a private for profit corporation with income in the 200 million dollar range per year. Is APA not the same as a private for profit company that has a FSPP? Many Universities have multimillion dollar grants from private philatrophist or political agencies. Are they not making millions of dollars under the guise of being a public university non profit instituition?

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. If one cannot put in the effort to earn a solid GPA, GRE, and research experience to get into a university then said person should not a be a doctor of psychology.

My evidence? Well, there is the hard evidence that so many have difficulty competing for internships and passing the EPPP. In fact, whenever a post comes through the EPPP list serve about multiple failed attempts it is from someone from a mill. Explain this: If FSPP are solid, why in God's name do their graduates struggle to pass an examination that is based on psychology?

I understand the need for decorum, but sometimes truthful discussion is what is needed. If you want to be a psychologist, go to a real school--not a strip mall.

 

[deliciousgoose]

Really----so APA accredited program do not produce "Real Psychologist!" You are so funny..... Another misguided power mongering turf battle issues arrives with such broad generalizations. How in the world can you generalize that an APA accredited program in a FSPP does not provide qualified psychologists? I believe APA is a private for profit corporation with income in the 200 million dollar range per year. Is APA not the same as a private for profit company that has a FSPP? Many Universities have multimillion dollar grants from private philatrophist or political agencies. Are they not making millions of dollars under the guise of being a public university non profit instituition?

No. The APA is a professional organization.

Receiving a grant is not the same thing as running a for profit institute. They are not "making millions of dollars" someone is giving them money to fund a very specific purpose. "Making millions of dollars" means taking the money home and pocketing it in a private bank account.

The distinction is not whether it is a private or public institution but whether the institution is for-profit or not-for-profit. If it is for-profit then the goal is to get as many students through their doors so the business makes as much money as possible. If it is not-for-profit the goal is to have tuition pay for the actual schooling, not pay for the CEO's mercedes.

Are you this person? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

 

[KayJay85]

And receiving a grant is not the same thing as running a for profit institute.

Exactly. Grants fund research because research improves the way we treat patients. It is an investment in better healthcare. That is no where near the same as simply raping the federal governmnent for $100K per student for those students to end up competing with master's level professionals for the same pay. And that is if they are lucky enough to complete the degree and get licensed at all.

 

[JeyRo]

Exactly. Grants fund research because research improves the way we treat patients. It is an investment in better healthcare. That is no where near the same as simply raping the federal governmnent for $100K per student for those students to end up competing with master's level professionals for the same pay. And that is if they are lucky enough to complete the degree and get licensed at all.

"Raping the federal government," interesting choice of words there. The feds are willing partners in this. It allows them to say they're making higher education available to all, very politically popular. The only people really getting raped are students. Although again (perhaps arguably) willingly....

 

[4410]

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. If one cannot put in the effort to earn a solid GPA, GRE, and research experience to get into a university then said person should not a be a doctor of psychology.

My evidence? Well, there is the hard evidence that so many have difficulty competing for internships and passing the EPPP. In fact, whenever a post comes through the EPPP list serve about multiple failed attempts it is from someone from a mill. Explain this: If FSPP are solid, why in God's name do their graduates struggle to pass an examination that is based on psychology?

I understand the need for decorum, but sometimes truthful discussion is what is needed. If you want to be a psychologist, go to a real school--not a strip mall.

You must be kidding-----you believe passing the EPPP makes you a qualified psychologists? Oh...I did pass the EPPP and I am from a PsyD FSPP. I guess I am the only outlier and no other folks from these program pass the EPPP. The EPPP is a real joke and basically covers everything most of us learn in our undergraduate psychology programs. It has no bearing on who is a "real psychologist" but is used to limit who enters the profession. Another weeding out method or hoop that psychologists must successfully complete. If you are not aware...people from PhD APA accredited University-based programs may take three or more times to pass the EPPP and some never pass the EPPP and resort to being LPC the rest of their life. I am fortunate in that my program has a MA degree to the PsyD and they recommend MA level licensure and taking the EPPP. Everyone in our program with their PsyD degree passes the EPPP and becomes a licensed psychologists as many of us pass the EPPP on the way to acquiring the doctorate degree. After completing a doctoral degree, a one-year long internship, a dissertation, oral exams, and years of supervision, it is really an embarrassment of the profession of psychologists to use a 200 multiple question online test to determine who gets in and who does not get in to the profession.

 

[KayJay85]

"Raping the federal government," interesting choice of words there. The feds are willing partners in this. It allows them to say they're making higher education available to all, very politically popular. The only people really getting raped are students. Although again (perhaps arguably) willingly....

Sure. The federal government is gung-ho about expanding access to higher education, however I do not think they are willing partners in what amounts to tons of defaulted loans for schools that are making NO effort to secure endowment funding or research dollars. Whenever efforts are made to improve a system, you'd better believe vultures will take advantage. I do think something can and should be done to curb federal loan amounts. I vaguely recall efforts to do so in response to places like Devry and Virginia College. Not sure what happened with that...???

 

[deliciousgoose]

If you are not aware...people for PhD university based programs take three or more times to pass the EPPP and some never pass the EPPP and resort to being LPC the rest of their life.

Please provide some data on something at some point in time.

You are implying here that all people from university based PhD programs take 3 or more times to pass the EPPP?

Some individuals from university based programs don't ever pass the EPPP because some of them never even take the test.

I'm sure there are some people from PhD programs that don't pass the EPPP, but the rate of EPPP failure is significantly higher for non-PhD individuals, and specifically FSPPs, than for university based PhD programs.

Edit: Oh look a source from this very website, and in which you posted. Wild. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=896038

Edit 2: And since you probably won't bother going to see the source this is what it says,

students from PhD programs as compared with PsyD and EdD programs were 106% more likely to pass the EPPP. However, there was more variability among the pass rates in PsyD programs as compared to PhD programs, as evidenced by the fact that the largest contributors to the failure rates were 13 PsyD programs.

 

[KayJay85]

You must be kidding-----you believe passing the EPPP makes you a qualified psychologists? Oh...I did pass the EPPP and I am from a PsyD FSPP. I guess I am the only outlier and no other folks from these program pass the EPPP. The EPPP is a real joke and basically covers everything most of us learn in our undergraduate psychology programs. It has no bearing on who is a "real psychologist" but is used to limit who enters the profession. Another weeding out method or hoop that psychologists much successfully complete. If you are not aware...people for PhD university based programs take three or more times to pass the EPPP and some never pass the EPPP and resort to being LPC the rest of their life. After completing a doctoral degree, a one-year long internship, a dissertation, oral exams, and years of supervision, it is really an embarrassment of the profession of psychologist to use a 200 multiple question online test to determine who gets in and who does not get in to the profession.

I know you won't provide it, but where is your data that PhD's take 3 or more tries to pass? According to the pass rate data that is publicly available and the anecdotal evidence about who is present at workshops and panicking on the listserve, PsyDs (particularly FSPP students) struggle the most. You are right that passing the EPPP does not mean one will be a good psychologist, but NOT PASSING after multiple attempts is a red flag about the candidate's academic acumen and/or their training. For someone who has completed their degree and internship, most of what is on the EPPP should not be brand new. Some of it may be fuzzy, but there are people (again on the listserve) who act as if they are being exposed to the information for the first time. Ridiculous.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You must be kidding-----you believe passing the EPPP makes you a qualified psychologists? Oh...I did pass the EPPP and I am from a PsyD FSPP. I guess I am the only outlier and no other folks from these program pass the EPPP. The EPPP is a real joke and basically covers everything most of us learn in our undergraduate psychology programs. It has no bearing on who is a "real psychologist" but is used to limit who enters the profession. Another weeding out method or hoop that psychologists much successfully complete. If you are not aware...people from PhD APA accredited University-based programs take three or more times to pass the EPPP and some never pass the EPPP and resort to being LPC the rest of their life. I am fortunate in that my program has a MA degree to the PsyD and they recommend MA level licensure and taking the EPPP. Everyone in our program with their PsyD degree passes the EPPP and becomes a licensed psychologists as many of us pass the EPPP on the way to acquiring the doctorate degree. After completing a doctoral degree, a one-year long internship, a dissertation, oral exams, and years of supervision, it is really an embarrassment of the profession of psychologists to use a 200 multiple question online test to determine who gets in and who does not get in to the profession.

Licensing exams are common in the majority of healthcare and mental health-related fields in which the professional interacts with some type of patient/client. I agree that the EPPP isn't a perfect measure, but it's one way of attempting to ensure competence on the part of the practitioner. This is even more important given the large variability in training methods and outcomes across programs in clinical psychology (owing to the minimal criteria that make up APA accreditation).

Do some Ph.D. and university-based Psy.D. graduates have trouble passing the EPPP and/or obtaining licensure? Sure, but objective data support that as with the internship crisis, a relatively small number of programs contribute a disproportionately large number of individuals to the group of folks who have difficulty at this step. In doing so, they're providing a disservice to their students, the profession, and (I would personally argue) future clients/patients.

 

[4410]

I know you won't provide it, but where is your data that PhD's take 3 or more tries to pass? According to the pass rate data that is publicly available and the anecdotal evidence about who is present at workshops and panicking on the listserve, PsyDs (particularly FSPP students) struggle the most. You are right that passing the EPPP does not mean one can not be a psychologist, but NOT PASSING after multiple attempts is a red flag about the candidate's academic acumen and/or their training. For someone who has completed their degree and internship, most of what is on the EPPP should not be brand new. Some of it may be fuzzy, but there are people (again on the listserve) who act as if they are being exposed to the information for the first time. Ridiculous.

You are making generalizations based on personal bias and stereotypes dependent upon your own personal training. It is not acceptable to make these generalizations based on hearsay or your own bias. I have known professionals who have the PhD and attended a APA accredited program who have much difficulty passing the EPPP. This does not mean everyone has the same troubles. I have also known professionals from PsyD FSPP who have taken a number of attempt or never passed the EPPP as well. For a profession such as the psychologists profession with all of the high standards of training, why is there even a standardized test required to become licensed? My guess is many undergraduates with a week long refresher course would pass the EPPP. So basically, do you have the same impression of doctoral graduates from APA accredited program such as OUHSC or UTSW when they do not pass the EPPP that it was due to their substandard training? I mention these two schools as I've known individuals who graduated from the biological psychology and the clinical psychology programs for both of the school and they took 3 to 4 times to pass the EPPP or they never passed the EPPP. I know what you are saying now... but actually the OUHSC biological psychology program is a clinical psychology program with a heavy research emphasis and they are qualified to do a predoctoral clinical psychology internship and become licensed psychologists. Are these two program low quality programs or below standards because two of their graduates had trouble or did not pass the EPPP in a similar fashion as you imply that PsyD FSPP student have?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You are making generalizations based on personal bias and stereotypes dependent upon your own personal training. It is not acceptable to make these generalizations based on hearsay or your own bias. I have known professionals who have the PhD and attended a APA accredited program who have much difficulty passing the EPPP. This does not mean everyone has the same troubles. I have also known professionals from PsyD FSPP who have taken a number of attempt or never passed the EPPP as well. For a profession such as the psychologists profession with all of the high standards of training, why is there even a standardized test required to become licensed? My guess is many undergraduates with a week long refresher course would pass the EPPP. So basically, do you have the same impression of doctoral graduates from APA accredited program such as OUHSC or UTSW when they do not pass the EPPP that is was due to their substandard training. I mention these two schools as I know individuals who graduated from the biological psychology and the clinical psychology programs for both of the school and they took 3 to 4 times to pass the EPPP or they never passed the EPPP. I know what you are saying now... but actually the OUHSC biological psychology program is a clinical psychology program with a heavy research emphasis and they are qualified to do a predoctoral clinical psychology internship and become licensed psychologists. Are these two program low quality programs or below standards because their graduates had trouble or did not pass the EPPP in a similar fashion as you imply that PsyD FSPP student have?

If you think the EPPP is bad, look at some of the standardized exams med students and residents need to go through. An exit/pre-licensure exam, as I mentioned above, is common (in some form or another) in nearly all healthcare and mental health fields. Arguing to get rid of a standardized test of knowledge, in my opinion, runs counter to patient/client care, as it removes one step of ensuring the competence of practitioners.

Again, it's been mentioned above that there are individuals from all programs who have difficulty passing the EPPP (or choose not to take it owing to focusing solely on research). However, as the data show, and as I've said above, there are a small number of programs contributing a disproportionately large number of individuals to this pool of people who have trouble passing (or never pass) the EPPP. Not coincidentally, many of these same programs contribute disproportionately large numbers of students to the pool of people who don't match for internship. These are not anecdotes or sweeping generalizations; they're statements of fact based on the available data. These programs, which very well might produce some very astute and proficient clinicians and researchers, are by and large doing something objectively wrong.

 

[erg923]

I know what you are saying now... but actually the OUHSC biological psychology program is a clinical psychology program with a heavy research emphasis and they are qualified to do a predoctoral clinical psychology internship and become licensed psychologists.

False. You make me sad.

See: http://www.ouhsc.edu/graduate/Grad%20web/Bulletin%20HTML/5%20Departments/Biological%20Psychology/Biological%20Psychology.htm

 

[erg923]

If that's your definition of rigorous, 4410, it's clear that you have no idea what reputable Ph.D. programs are like.

It is CLEAR 4410 is not a real graduate student.

If you have concerns that he is spreading an unaccepetable amount of misinformation, please PM the moderator. I and couple others have already done so. Otherwise, I think it best if we just ignore him. I have tried an failed in the past. But now my I have strengthened my resolve.

 

[4410]

False. You make me sad.

See: http://www.ouhsc.edu/graduate/Grad ...ological Psychology/Biological Psychology.htm

They have some sort of agreement with OSU and take courses or practicum rotations through a partnership with OSU or at least they used to back in the 80's and 90's. Students in the Biological Psychology program at OUHSC have clinical supervision and complete clinical psychology internships and become licensed psychologists. Some stay in research but many of them go the clinical route through a collaborative arrangement with OSU APA accredited Clinical Psychology program.

 

[KayJay85]

It is CLEAR 4410 is not a real graduate student.

I'm guessing a recruiter for one of the professional schools.

 

[hamsterpants]

i'm guessing a recruiter for one of the professional schools.

+1

 

[erg923]

Students in the Biological Psychology program at OUHSC have clinical supervision and complete clinical psychology internships and become licensed psychologists. Some stay in research but many of them go the clinical route through a collaborative arrangement with OSU APA accredited Clinical Psychology program.

I cannot even begin to imagine what a nightmare it would be to have you as a practicum student...

http://www.ouhsc.edu/graduate/Grad%20web/Bulletin%20HTML/5%20Departments/Biological%20Psychology/Biological%20Psychology.htm

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7.5 DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY DEGREE REQUIREMENTS.
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Work leading to the Ph.D. degree, under the general direction of the Doctoral Advisory Committee, is offered in three fields of concentration as indicated. Faculty offers research training and expertise in several health-related topics including: alcoholism, substance abuse, sleep disorders, brain dysfunction, stress-related disorders, maladaptive behavior, and psychopathology. The Advisory Committee will assist the student in selecting courses beyond the core curriculum, which consists of courses in the following areas: (1) basic experimental psychology; (2) statistics; (3) biomedical sciences; and (4) biological psychology. At least 60 semester hours of course work in addition to Dissertation Research (for a total of 90 semester hours) are required for the Ph.D. degree..

 

[JeyRo]

I do think something can and should be done to curb federal loan amounts. I vaguely recall efforts to do so in response to places like Devry and Virginia College. Not sure what happened with that...???

I think it should be curtailed across the board, perhaps gradually over time like Ron Paul has proposed, for all schools. Schools that can maintain endowments and offer a quality product will remain (albeit they might have to decrease in size, slim down administration, cut other things) while schools that are merely vehicles for sopping up student loan funds from suckers will go under, as they should. Also this would help over time to arrest the hyperinflation in tuition that's taking place everywhere and also effects undergraduate education.

Obviously this is all an object lesson that there's no such thing as a free lunch.....

 

[MCParent]

We can do it ourselves, with professional responsibility and care for students. Or, we can wait for that loan bubble to burst, and watch students get carved up and let our field be further illegitimized. Think Obama is going to bail out grad students? Heh.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Well, it's a bit more complex than that. Many are supported through federal grants, not state monies. Now, yes, those are still tax payer dollars. But federal grants are contracts to perform a service, much like building an f22 or whatever. A pure libertarian position would be that we shouldn't support research on a federal level. I actually don't agree with that as I think research is a critical component to driving quality of life and general development of humanity. Also, when supported by teaching assistantships, these graduate students are performing a necessary service for the university. This may be state dollars (if a public school), but again, they need people to teach classes. Often though, a minor amount of state dollars fuel psychology departments, which get revenue from many sources.

In the case of professional schools 90+% of their funding is coming from student loans. That's a very different thing.


The exorbitant cost is not independent from the quality. You think you are going to get good quality students with the financial parameters the way they are now at professional schools? I'd say no. You are going to get people that don't understand money. You are going to get people who don't have good connections to the field and don't understand the situation. Basically, we're going to prey on the uninformed, the naive, and the stupid. Doesn't sound ethical to me. It sounds like exploitation. It also doesn't seem like the best way to advance treatment for mental illness. Actually to me, it sounds like we're saying that mental illness is an unimportant problem. We don't need bright people in the field.

I do appreciate this smart reply. Good point about assistantships and I also think your point about quality is right on, especially in regards to the super high cost FSPS programs with low-quality stats (practicum placements, APA internship match, EPPP pass rates, etc.). I think this is the kind of chatter this forum needs when talking about PsyD programs.

 

[JeyRo]

Well, it's a bit more complex than that. Many are supported through federal grants, not state monies. Now, yes, those are still tax payer dollars. But federal grants are contracts to perform a service, much like building an f22 or whatever. A pure libertarian position would be that we shouldn't support research on a federal level. I actually don't agree with that as I think research is a critical component to driving quality of life and general development of humanity.

A couple of points: first, a libertarian isn't made ideologically less pure by accepting (say) a position at a funded doctoral program that may be funding the position with state / federal money any more so than a libertarian is being hypocritical for driving on a publicly funded road or watching a public television show. Libertarians have to live in the world just like everyone else.

Secondly, just because someone is against government being involved in funding research doesn't mean one doesn't see research as being a "critical component" in humanity, life, whatever, it just means you don't like government stealing money from some people and disbursing it to other people. Plenty of research gets funded without the government getting involved, and would continue to get funded without government involvement.

 

[deleted176373]

Secondly, just because someone is against government being involved in funding research doesn't mean one doesn't see research as being a "critical component" in humanity, life, whatever, it just means you don't like government stealing money from some people and disbursing it to other people. Plenty of research gets funded without the government getting involved, and would continue to get funded without government involvement.

Amen

 

[deliciousgoose]

Amen

Ummm. Don't you work in the military?

 

[JeyRo]

Ummm. Don't you work in the military?

You might as well ask him whether he drives on publicly funded roads, just as irrelevant.

 

[LMK]

ummm. Don't you work in the military?

wtf?!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

A couple of points: first, a libertarian isn't made ideologically less pure by accepting (say) a position at a funded doctoral program that may be funding the position with state / federal money any more so than a libertarian is being hypocritical for driving on a publicly funded road or watching a public television show. Libertarians have to live in the world just like everyone else.

That is why pure libertarianism makes no sense. Unless, of course, you are independently wealthy and live exclusively on your own private land, growing your own food, using only items that you made off of your own land...

Secondly, just because someone is against government being involved in funding research doesn't mean one doesn't see research as being a "critical component" in humanity, life, whatever, it just means you don't like government stealing money from some people and disbursing it to other people. Plenty of research gets funded without the government getting involved, and would continue to get funded without government involvement.

Ugh, yeah, like banks. And construction companies that build roads. And the military. And mental health providers. And all of that such nonsense.

 

[deliciousgoose]

You might as well ask him whether he drives on publicly funded roads, just as irrelevant.

Ummm....how?

If you don't believe in government redistribution of monies then it's hypocritical to post about the sweet deal you have at the uniformed services and how awesome it is to be a naval officer etc.

Ugh, yeah, like banks. And construction companies that build roads. And the military. And mental health providers. And all of that such nonsense.

Exactly.

That is why pure libertarianism makes no sense. Unless, of course, you are independently wealthy and live exclusively on your own private land, growing your own food, using only items that you made off of your own land...

Agreed, and the people I know that actually want to do this--be completely self-sufficient--are not libertarians but rather are usually fairly leftist.

 

[JeyRo]

Ummm....how?

So what's the logical stopping point for your argument here, exactly? If we take your argument to it's logical conclusion, in order to claim ideological purity, libertarians should live on a desert island community and never touch anything or consume any product or service or take any benefit that might have the taint of government funding to it. That's what we call cutting off your nose to spite your face (or in this case, to make a political point I guess), and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[deliciousgoose]

So what's the logical stopping point for your argument here, exactly? If we take your argument to it's logical conclusion, in order to claim ideological purity, libertarians should live on a desert island community and never touch anything or consume any product or service or take any benefit that might have the taint of government funding to it. That's what we call cutting off your nose to spite your face (or in this case, to make a political point I guess), and makes no sense whatsoever.

The stopping point is that the libertarian stance is illogical and fundamentally flawed because it absolutely cannot be fully implemented in our society.

And regardless, there is a difference between choosing to work directly for the government while posturing against government funding, and being forced to take a government position because it is all that was available. MarkP sought out a military university after choosing to work in the military for more than a decade. I guess I found the juxtaposition between endorsing the statement "it just means you don't like government stealing money from some people and disbursing it to other people" and actively pursuing a career (at all points) that is supported solely by that exact same money to be comical/a great show of low self-awareness.

 

[O Gurl]

The stopping point is that the libertarian stance is illogical and fundamentally flawed because it is absolutely untenable in our society.

In general, I agree. There are some good ideas, such as less military intervention overseas. I think the US has got to accept that we will NEVER create peace in the Middle East. We simply won't. So we have to be smarter about stated goals. That is one thing I am proud of with the current admin--military intervention actually seems to be well-reasoned. I also think that our financial system is inherently flawed and the war on drugs is a waste. Both libertarianism fundamentals. Overall, though, the movement is far too idealistic to work in the current state of the world and Ron Paul has less than a snowballs chance in Hades of getting anywhere in the forseeable future because he is all ideas with little strategy... sooo......

Back to the point of the thread?

 

[JeyRo]

The stopping point is that the libertarian stance is, there is a difference between choosing to work directly for the government while posturing against government funding, and being forced to take a government position because it is all that was available.

That's utterly arbitrary. So a libertarian is ideologically pure if he swears off career ambitions or bettering him or herself if it involves accepting government money, but we're in the clear to accept government largesse if it's to avoid starvation?

Anyways, there's not much more to classical liberalism, anarcho-capitalism, voluntaryism than simply being against coercion and violence as a way of achieving social goals. I understand some people think that's "impractical" but I simply disagree, for a variety of reasons not germaine to this thread.

Anyways, I'm cool with getting back to the topic at hand. Apologize for the derail.

 

[deleted176373]

Ummm....how?

If you don't believe in government redistribution of monies then it's hypocritical to post about the sweet deal you have at the uniformed services and how awesome it is to be a naval officer etc.

Agreed, and the people I know that actually want to do this--be completely self-sufficient--are not libertarians but rather are usually fairly leftist.

So let's get this straight, I am a libertarian, and yes I am on the government payroll. However I am willing to provide a service that many are unwilling to perform and includes getting deployed on behalf of my government to combat zones. Now if that sounds like wealth redistribution, go ahead and explain why?

Now let's imagine that the military did not exist, I had a life before becoming a naval officer and I might add that I did quite well as a business owner before selling my first company in 2001 to a major player in my market. I provided jobs and I paid my "fair share" in taxes (which in some years exceeded 6 figures). So if you want to run your mouth about how I rely on the government to support me I have plenty of evidence to show that I am capable of making money without government assistance.

Is it awesome to have the opportunity to be a Naval officer? Yes, I think so. I am very happy, I believe that I have been given a rare opportunity, and I would do it again. Don't expect me to apologize for identifying the best opportunity and taking it. The US Navy was going to accept two students regardless of whether I applied or not. I might add that I was also accepted at other schools with funding.

I'm sorry you take offense to me looking out for myself, libertarian does not mean that I have to sacrifice my own good simply on principal. Given the opportunity to defund a great many programs (including ones that benefit me) I probably would without hesitation. That's outside my reach, I vote and I make my wishes known at the ballot box, even when they are not in my self interest.

What's next? Are you going to tell me how wrong I am for driving a Ferrari and that it's not a proper car for a libertarian? I couldn't find it in a hybrid.

 

[futureapppsy2]

All:

Please remember to maintain a professional and civil tone on the forums, as per our terms of service and general guidelines, or this thread may have to be closed.

Also, everyone can put specific users (except mods and admins) on "Ignore" to block their posts from view by clicking their name and choosing the ignore option from the dropdown menu.

Thanks.

 

[deliciousgoose]

Back to the point of the thread?

Agreed.

Sorry for the derail. My apologies if I offended anyone; I think this is the sort of discussion that is difficult in the first place, and made more difficult by the medium of conversation.

 

[4410]

Whether it is student loans, Federal Grants, paying your own tuition etc....Education may be public or private. The whole concept of non profit for public institutions is Bogus as many of these institutions receive donations and these are million dollar donations. Bottom line is Tax payers are paying for peoples education regardless of student loans or tuition waivers or research and teaching assistantships. FSPP with the PsyD in clinical psychology are not diploma mills as students in these program most likely have to work harder than other types of programs and many of them are minorities, older students with families, and nontraditional students. MSPP accepts many minority students who may not gain admittance into a traditional PhD program. A diploma mill is where you buy a diploma without having to work much on your degree. FSPP PsyD programs normally are 5 to 7 year programs. How can you logically and morally make statements that these are diploma mills, when in fact the majority of these programs are APA accredited and their students pass the EPPP and become licensed psychologist. By calling these schools diploma mills, you are basically saying APA accreditation is a fraud, and if this is true then you most likely could expand this logic to the whole profession of psychology is a fraud.

Essentially, the need exist for alternative educational programs for psychologists is the need to have diverse community of psychologists. Traditional PhD programs have failed severely to meet the needs of the community in training of psychologists, especially clinical psychologists. Training standards for clinical psychologists need to be clarified and re-standardized because the current model is out of date and needs to be revised to reflect current trends. Clinical psychology training must be directed at developing and maintaining clinical skills rather then basically an upward extension of undergraduate education in general psychology and then expect all of the clinical training to occur in predoctoral internship and postdoctoral internship. PhD programs are notorious for having students acquire statistics and research during their program of study that reduces the students time for acquiring clinical skills, training, and supervision. This is not needed for becoming a clinical psychologist. Many Dissertations are normally a meaningless book that sits gathering dust on a University library shelf for eternity. A clinical psychologist does not need to complete a Dissertation...such a waste of time when they need to be focusing and developing clinical skills. PsyD programs are trending towards the right direction in having a CRP but some of these programs lost focus and are trying to have their students meet the same requirements of many PhD programs, which are basically using slave labor for professors to publish research. Clinical psychology doctoral programs do not need their students wasting their precious time and energy on padding a professors research publications so they may advance in the field.

Primarily, the whole concept of clinical psychology training must get back on track and reduce or eliminate research requirements for these students and require development of clinical skills during the doctoral degree programming. PhD programs have fallen short as their students lack of developing clinical skills and their model is entirely limited due to research requirements and out dated, whereas PsyD programs have taken the initiative to reduce research requirements to produce high quality clinicians that the PhD programs have neglected due to their outdated curriculum requiring research and stat emphasis. Many masters level programs leading to the LPC recognized years ago that a thesis or dissertation were not required to be a high quality clinician and basically they are taking over the field of clinical psychology, since many of us spend our time bickering about redundant issues related to dissertation, research, and other issues that don't belong in the curriculum for doctoral level clinical psychologists.

 

[MCParent]

...as students in these program most likely have to work harder than other types of programs and many of them are minorities, older students with families, and nontraditional students. MSPP accepts many minority students who may not gain admittance into a traditional PhD program...

As usual, most of this post is wrong. But here's a good example of something very wrong.

How do you know this? Where is the data on which you are basing this? It's not on their web site. It's not reflected in the APPIC data I posted.

Unfortunately, your behind is not a legitimate source from which to retrieve data.

 

[Pragma]

So let's get this straight, I am a libertarian, and yes I am on the government payroll. However I am willing to provide a service that many are unwilling to perform and includes getting deployed on behalf of my government to combat zones. Now if that sounds like wealth redistribution, go ahead and explain why?

Now let's imagine that the military did not exist, I had a life before becoming a naval officer and I might add that I did quite well as a business owner before selling my first company in 2001 to a major player in my market. I provided jobs and I paid my "fair share" in taxes (which in some years exceeded 6 figures). So if you want to run your mouth about how I rely on the government to support me I have plenty of evidence to show that I am capable of making money without government assistance.

Is it awesome to have the opportunity to be a Naval officer? Yes, I think so. I am very happy, I believe that I have been given a rare opportunity, and I would do it again. Don't expect me to apologize for identifying the best opportunity and taking it. The US Navy was going to accept two students regardless of whether I applied or not. I might add that I was also accepted at other schools with funding.

I'm sorry you take offense to me looking out for myself, libertarian does not mean that I have to sacrifice my own good simply on principal. Given the opportunity to defund a great many programs (including ones that benefit me) I probably would without hesitation. That's outside my reach, I vote and I make my wishes known at the ballot box, even when they are not in my self interest.

What's next? Are you going to tell me how wrong I am for driving a Ferrari and that it's not a proper car for a libertarian? I couldn't find it in a hybrid.

I think a military career is a very very unusual choice for a libertarian. Just my opinion. I do, however, appreciate your service.