Here’s a little exercise/reminder about how “poorly” medicine pays.

[907914]

You just blew my mind

*Not sure if sarcasm or not, but appreciate it either way*

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[Kardio]

*Not sure if sarcasm or not, but appreciate it either way*

Nah for real, I hadn’t thought about it like that

 

[CidHighwind]

This thread is talking about how poor doctors are paid relatively, to a bunch of premeds who would do this for free..

It’s more of a “people here keep talking about how doctors aren’t well compensated or it’s not a smart investment, but even the resident salary that people say isn’t much is still better than most 18-34 year olds are making in pretty much every area of the country”.

 

[993444]

If we as a pro-choice society have decided that the decision to have a child is fully on the woman to have or rid herself of, then shouldn’t the ‘burden of birth control’ fall on the one who has the ultimate decision in pregnancy or not?

You just blew my mind

By that extension..... should the burden of child support fall on the mother? Should maternal rights supersede paternal rights in any and all circumstances?

And is the decision really fully on the woman? If the man in a heterosexual couple doesn't want children but the woman ends up getting pregnant and wants to keep it, and the man gives her a choice to pick between him or the baby, is the decision truly hers since he is essentially punishing her for going through with the pregnancy? I would argue that if he doesn't want to have children, then he should be the one undergoing male birth control (in a perfect world where such a method would exist).

 

[907914]

should the burden of child support fall on the mother?

If the father didn’t want the child then Yes, In a hypothetical world where we had a proper social safety net that ensuring clothing, food, housing, school supplies, and health coverage for everyone under the age of 18 (honestly should just be everyone, but let’s go with the “everyone agrees on no starving kids” for now). It the reality of suck we live in, child support is a necessary-if-imperfect system.

punishing her for going through with the pregnancy?

He isn’t really punishing her. If she has the right to control her body and wants the resulting child, the man is under no obligation to care for it if he doesn’t want it. Two people had to participate to make the thing, and both parties can take precautions to avoid the pregnancy, so both parties SHOULD contribute to the child if they keep it (assuming that is by choice as opposed to inaccessibility of services). However, what should be done and what people are actually obliged to do are different things.

 

[993444]

If the father didn’t want the child then Yes, In a hypothetical world where we had a proper social safety net that ensuring clothing, food, housing, school supplies, and health coverage for everyone under the age of 18 (honestly should just be everyone, but let’s go with the “everyone agrees on no starving kids” for now). It the reality of suck we live in, child support is a necessary-if-imperfect system.

Should a mother then have the full right to tell the father that he cannot be a part of the child's life, even if he does want to be a part of the child's life and pay child support?

He isn’t really punishing her. If she has the right to control her body and wants the resulting child, the man is under no obligation to care for it if he doesn’t want it. Two people had to participate to make the thing, and both parties can take precautions to avoid the pregnancy, so both parties SHOULD contribute to the child if they keep it (assuming that is by choice as opposed to inaccessibility of services). However, what should be done and what people are actually obliged to do are different things.

So to summarize, you are saying that a man can say: "I want to have sex with you but in no way are you allowed to have children. If you do end up getting pregnant, then you either have to suffer the emotional trauma of either an abortion or a divorce. Oh, and btw, it's totally up to you to go through the trouble of birth control and I won't do anything besides wearing a condom and pulling out."

 

[deleted804295]

Are You Rich? This Income-Rank Quiz Might Change How You See Yourself (Published 2019)

Five questions to help you compare yourself with your neighbors. (For Americans only.)

www.nytimes.com

Go there and put in the “plithy” salary of even a resident in there and realize how well they do relative to everyone else, even in big cities. Not saying the money isn’t well earned, but maybe it will just give some of you all some perspective on how “others” are doing.

I came to the realization that doctors are filthy rich when I noticed that working part time would make a physician more money than the average American working full time.

 

[beattheprocess]

want to be a part of the child's life and pay child support?

Name one man that wants to do that. I’ll wait.

 

[beattheprocess]

On a more serious note

By that extension..... should the burden of child support fall on the mother?

Whoever wants to raise the child should pay for raising the child.

Should maternal rights supersede paternal rights in any and all circumstances?

They kinda already do? Mothers nearly always win the custody battle.

And is the decision really fully on the woman? If the man in a heterosexual couple doesn't want children but the woman ends up getting pregnant and wants to keep it, and the man gives her a choice to pick between him or the baby, is the decision truly hers since he is essentially punishing her for going through with the pregnancy? I would argue that if he doesn't want to have children, then he should be the one undergoing male birth control (in a perfect world where such a method would exist).

There is male birth control. It's called a vasectomy. You can't coerce a guy into a vasectomy the same way you can't make a woman keep a baby.

There are also many things the woman could have done before anything happens.
1. Make the guy get a vasectomy
2. Leave and find another guy

The woman still can give birth and put the baby up for adoption.

Should a mother then have the full right to tell the father that he cannot be a part of the child's life, even if he does want to be a part of the child's life and pay child support?

If a man doesn't want to leave then why would a woman want him out? At this point it's not about what the mother wants but what's best for the child.

So to summarize, you are saying that a man can say: "I want to have sex with you but in no way are you allowed to have children. If you do end up getting pregnant, then you either have to suffer the emotional trauma of either an abortion or a divorce. Oh, and btw, it's totally up to you to go through the trouble of birth control and I won't do anything besides wearing a condom and pulling out."

Like I said giving birth and putting the baby up for abortion is an option. When you have the final say of whether to keep/terminate the fetus, it comes with a greater burden.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Are You Rich? This Income-Rank Quiz Might Change How You See Yourself (Published 2019)

Five questions to help you compare yourself with your neighbors. (For Americans only.)

www.nytimes.com

Go there and put in the “plithy” salary of even a resident in there and realize how well they do relative to everyone else, even in big cities. Not saying the money isn’t well earned, but maybe it will just give some of you all some perspective on how “others” are doing.

Uggg...

Go out and find the average salary of a job that requires 70 hours and 8+ years of postsecondary education and see what you come up with... I'm sure it's much less than a resident makes

 

[PikminOC]

Don't forget the massive loans, work hours, level of responsibility, opportunity cost of not working for 8 years...

 

[CidHighwind]

Don't forget the massive loans, work hours, level of responsibility, opportunity cost of not working for 8 years...

Whenever people include college time into the time it takes to go into medicine I just roll my eyes. College is a “sunk cost” anyway since you were going to go to college regardless of what one decided to do with their life. And yes, even with the opportunity cost, loans, etc, it still has the best ROI of any career.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Throughout my career, the wealthiest doctors I have met *all* have multiple side hustles. The difference is, these guys had hundreds of thousands of play money in their 30s to invest early.

I'm talking about restaurants, breweries, being a landlord, all kinds of diverse revenue streams are opened up when you have seed money early on.

(I'm told that if you're young and somebody is willing to give you a small loan of a million dollars, you can even become a billionaire and then the most powerful man in the world, but I digress)

 

[CidHighwind]

Throughout my career, the wealthiest doctors I have met *all* have multiple side hustles. The difference is, these guys had hundreds of thousands of play money in their 30s to invest early.

I'm talking about restaurants, breweries, being a landlord, all kinds of diverse revenue streams are opened up when you have seed money early on.

(I'm told that if you're young and somebody is willing to give you a small loan of a million dollars, you can even become a billionaire and then the most powerful man in the world, but I digress)

Haha, love that last line. But yeah, smart investments and making your money work for you is how you get rich. The people just putting their 6-figure checks into their bank accounts are doing it wrong.

 

[mwsapphire]

Haha, love that last line. But yeah, smart investments and making your money work for you is how you get rich. The people just putting their 6-figure checks into their bank accounts are doing it wrong.

*taking notes*

 

[clinicallabguy]

Haha, love that last line. But yeah, smart investments and making your money work for you is how you get rich. The people just putting their 6-figure checks into their bank accounts are doing it wrong.

True that's not optimal. It's more often a problem of docs spending their 6-figure paychecks (and then some) and not investing anything.

I am about to take my board certification exam next week (and am here procrastinating studying HA!). I remember reading Dave Ramsey's "The Total Money Makeover" the spring before I started medical school in 2009. After doing so, I wondered whether I was making a HUGE financial mistake. I hope not, but I realize more that it's not as important whether ALL physicians are wealthy or not. It's more important whether YOU learn the principles of personal finance that will allow you to get wealthy, and that you have good reasons to want wealth.

If you're considering your financial success as a future physician, here are my 2 cents:

Learn how to curb your own marginal propensity to consume. Read about Michael Jackson's estate when he died (deeply in debt), and read about the proportion of professional athletes that are bankrupt within 10 years of retirement (a ton of them). As you progress throughout your life you will have a tendency compare yourself to your peers, not your former peers. This is true for education, finances, etc. You won't compare your success to undergrads when you're a resident; you'll compare yourself to other residents. You won't compare how nice your car is to what undergrads drive when you're an attending; you'll compare yourself to other attendings. And you may compare yourself to attendings that are further on in their career and more financially secure (ie the well established orthopedic surgeon with a fleet of sports cars). You will feel the pressure to live your life like them. I think you should resist that urge. There are neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons that are going further into debt each year. It is not possible to out-earn your ability to spend money if you do not control your spending.

Ask yourself why you want to be wealthy, and whether your reason is motivating enough. How wealthy do you want to be? Usually people want to be wealthy enough to enjoy retirement. So what does your retirement look like? How much will you spend a year during retirement, and how much of a nest egg do you need to have saved for that to happen?

I'm still trying to learn more about this stuff, but don't want to be broke and deeply in debt 10 years into my career. I listen to the White Coat Investor podcast, financial residency, occasionally Dave Ramsey (it's fun to hear people celebrate becoming debt free, and it's sometimes fun to heckle Dave in my mind when I don't agree). Dr. Cory Fawcett is another physician with books and a blog about personal finances. I think these are great resources to start with, if you're interested. . And if you're a pre-med, med student, or resident, now is a good time to come up with a financial plan and a goal that will motivate you to curb your spending throughout this process and to learn about opportunities to save and invest.

I don't think there is a profession that will MAKE you wealthy. But YOU can learn skills and habits that can lead to wealth in many good professions, no matter which good one you choose. Medicine is one of them.

 

[clinicallabguy]

I was going to say exactly this. My college bf's family was from a loaded part of SoCal and it was neighborhoods lined with pro athletes, rappers, CEOs, and doctors/dentists living side by side. Plenty of these doctors weren't from already-wealthy families either. It's about what they do with their already-high incomes

edit: Someone mentioned PCPs. It's harder for them but still about what they do with it. I know psychiatrists and even a veterinarian in these types of neighborhoods. Sure, they're outnumbered by orthos and other high-paying specialties, but again, it's about what they do with it

Agree with above. PCPs do on average have a lower income than procedural specialties. But variation of income is greater within specialties, than it is between specialties. See : Increasing Your Primary Care Income: An Interview with Doc G of DiverseFI - Podcast #75 - The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors

Also important is that the neighborhood you live in does not necessarily indicate how wealthy you are. If you are upside down in a mortgage for a 1.5 million dollar home, then you live in a nice neighborhood, and you may buy nice clothes and drive a nice car so you look like your wealthy, but you actually have a negative net worth. Or you might have a paid-for 250K home (probably not in So Cal) with a million dollars in taxed advantaged and taxable investments. In order to invest that money, maybe you drove a 10 year old Toyota Corolla and live in a modest home, so your neighbors may not think you're wealthy when you really are. In fact, in Millionaire Next Door Thomas Stanley compared "Doctor North" and "Doctor South." One looked wealthy, and one was actually wealthy. See: One of My Favorite Books, The Millionaire Next Door

 

[clinicallabguy]

You're completely right; this is important too. We have a very close family friend in a primary care specialty with a porsche, a massive home, and a ton of mortgage w/ no savings. An img with Harvard residency who would essentially go bankrupt if he missed a paycheck. However, I don't think you can pull the faking it thing off in those super expensive neighborhoods with the athletes & rappers and they are reasonably indicative of wealth.

All that being said, people may be happy with their choices and it isn't really for me to judge. Personally, I would prefer a reasonably nice home that is paid off, a nice enough not-an-old-corolla-but-not-a-supercar either vehicle, and enough to just have security in life. It's about balance imo

Maybe most people in super expensive neighborhoods are wealthy (ie high net worth). I don't know. I imagine it ranges from over leveraged and overreaching living paycheck-to paycheck with a high annual income but low to negative net worth to Uber-wealthy with lots of equity and assets and investments. I've never lived in that kind of place before, though.

Sure. That's understandable.

 

[PikminOC]

Whenever people include college time into the time it takes to go into medicine I just roll my eyes. College is a “sunk cost” anyway since you were going to go to college regardless of what one decided to do with their life. And yes, even with the opportunity cost, loans, etc, it still has the best ROI of any career.

Yep, nothing you can learn from full fledged physicians. You know everything.

 

[PikminOC]

You're completely right; this is important too. We have a very close family friend in a primary care specialty with a porsche, a massive home, and a ton of mortgage w/ no savings. An img with Harvard residency who would essentially go bankrupt if he missed a paycheck. However, I don't think you can pull the faking it thing off in those super expensive neighborhoods with the athletes & rappers and they are reasonably indicative of wealth.

All that being said, people may be happy with their choices and it isn't really for me to judge. Personally, I would prefer a reasonably nice home that is paid off, a nice enough not-an-old-corolla-but-not-a-supercar either vehicle, and enough to just have security in life. It's about balance imo

Yes my college friend works forty hours a week. Minimal responsibility. Will get a pension soon. I'm ten years behind her, won't get a pension, stressed out over things I can't control, like my patients behavior outside my office, full of gray hair, and have 100 g of loans still left from med school

 

[Lucca]

“I want to be rich” - Drake says no

“I want to live somewhere where I don’t need to drive because public transport is good and accessible, housing is affordable, I don’t need to worry about being bankrupted by unexpected healthcare costs at any moment, need to save hundreds of thousands of dollars to get high quality education for my children, and pensions are guaranteed and secure.” - Drake says yes

 

[CidHighwind]

Yep, nothing you can learn from full fledged physicians. You know everything.

I’m curious, if you weren’t a physician, what would you do instead? What would you recommend people do? No one is saying the path isn’t arduous and painful.

 

[shemer77]

Are You Rich? This Income-Rank Quiz Might Change How You See Yourself (Published 2019)

Five questions to help you compare yourself with your neighbors. (For Americans only.)

www.nytimes.com

Go there and put in the “plithy” salary of even a resident in there and realize how well they do relative to everyone else, even in big cities. Not saying the money isn’t well earned, but maybe it will just give some of you all some perspective on how “others” are doing.

Nobody is doubting that residents make a decent salary but per hour your less than mcdonalds

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

Yep, nothing you can learn from full fledged physicians. You know everything.

Ironic

Yes my college friend works forty hours a week. Minimal responsibility. Will get a pension soon. I'm ten years behind her, won't get a pension, stressed out over things I can't control, like my patients behavior outside my office, full of gray hair, and have 100 g of loans still left from med school

I have two good friends who are making over 400k. They have been since their early twenties and will out-earn me in the long run for sure.
I know about 20 to 40 times that who are making sub 80k a year and likely will until they retire. People love to assume that if you are smart enough to become a doctor you could be an I banker in NYC. I sincerely doubt that. Not discounting the intelligence required to be a doctor but the application of intelligence is not uniform throughout all fields. Look at the social skills of this forum and many in medicine, these are not aggressive social networkers. My sister works in mortgages and does a large number of loans for physicians, so she sees their debt and finances consistently. She and others in the industry, have told me they are no longer surprised how bad doctors are with money. Granted as a whole, people are bad with money but she expected physicians to as a whole be better due to the implied intelligence but that is not directly correlated to financial smarts.

This argument basically requires the assumption you're going to do incredibly well right after undergraduate and avoid the inherent instability the rest of the workforce experiences. I'm not sure if it is an ego thing due to the selection to become a doctor or used to justify the complaints but it is a sketchy justification at best. There is another post talking about physician salaries compared to graduating from a top law school and entering into a prestigious law firm so it seem to be a common thought. If people want to assume that they could walk into an investment firm and pull 200k at 23 they should also be able to see the almost invaluable return on the stability that being a doctor provides. It is safe. If I didn't care at all about the mission of physicians and only about money I still would likely choose medicine because I know with incredibly high certainty that I will not worry about money. Show someone an investment that has that consistently high of a return and you'll have to climb over the droves of investment bankers trying to claw at it.

Complaining about the quality of life is totally fair. Complaining about the salary is what causes a lot of the negative views towards physicians.

 

[PikminOC]

I’m curious, if you weren’t a physician, what would you do instead? What would you recommend people do? No one is saying the path isn’t arduous and painful.

It's not just the path. The responsibility is crushing.
Please post on here after ten years of practice

 

[PikminOC]

Ironic


I have two good friends who are making over 400k. They have been since their early twenties and will out-earn me in the long run for sure.
I know about 20 to 40 times that who are making sub 80k a year and likely will until they retire. People love to assume that if you are smart enough to become a doctor you could be an I banker in NYC. I sincerely doubt that. Not discounting the intelligence required to be a doctor but the application of intelligence is not uniform throughout all fields. Look at the social skills of this forum and many in medicine, these are not aggressive social networkers. My sister works in mortgages and does a large number of loans for physicians, so she sees their debt and finances consistently. She and others in the industry, have told me they are no longer surprised how bad doctors are with money. Granted as a whole, people are bad with money but she expected physicians to as a whole be better due to the implied intelligence but that is not directly correlated to financial smarts.

This argument basically requires the assumption you're going to do incredibly well right after undergraduate and avoid the inherent instability the rest of the workforce experiences. I'm not sure if it is an ego thing due to the selection to become a doctor or used to justify the complaints but it is a sketchy justification at best. There is another post talking about physician salaries compared to graduating from a top law school and entering into a prestigious law firm so it seem to be a common thought. If people want to assume that they could walk into an investment firm and pull 200k at 23 they should also be able to see the almost invaluable return on the stability that being a doctor provides. It is safe. If I didn't care at all about the mission of physicians and only about money I still would likely choose medicine because I know with incredibly high certainty that I will not worry about money. Show someone an investment that has that consistently high of a return and you'll have to climb over the droves of investment bankers trying to claw at it.

Complaining about the quality of life is totally fair. Complaining about the salary is what causes a lot of the negative views towards physicians.

I'm not saying I want more money. Or want to be an investment banker. Please post here after ten years of practice

 

[CidHighwind]

It's not just the path. The responsibility is crushing.
Please post on here after ten years of practice

No one is doubting that the job doesn’t have a lot of responsibility attached to it. That being said, there’s a lot of well-paying jobs with a lot of responsibility attached to it. You can always appeal to rank and seniority, and I’m not saying that you’re incorrect, just that people don’t want to hear how “underpaid” physicians are.

 

[PikminOC]

No one is doubting that the job doesn’t have a lot of responsibility attached to it. That being said, there’s a lot of well-paying jobs with a lot of responsibility attached to it. You can always appeal to rank and seniority, and I’m not saying that you’re incorrect, just that people don’t want to hear how “underpaid” physicians are.

Did I ever say underpaid?

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

I'm not saying I want more money. Or want to be an investment banker. Please post here after ten years of practice

I'm ten years behind her, won't get a pension.

and have 100 g of loans still left from med school

This is a thread about physician salaries. It is not a stretch to assume your arguments supported by money are in fact related to money.
People are going to respond under the assumption you are saying the money to responsibility ratio isnt fair.

Please post on here after ten years of practice

Please complain about crushing responsibility after you've been a medic in a warzone treating your best friends like me.
See how competition in who has it worse or assumption that the other cannot fathom what you're saying shuts down any conversation, shouldn't be done, and is unproductive? The only reason I'm taking the time to type this is based on how much it bothers me that this thought process is common and detrimental to conversation.

 

[Select All That Apply]

@FISTMCLARGEHUGE Physicians are systematically undervalued in the U.S. healthcare system and the stress that comes with that responsibility continually goes unacknowledged by most people to the point where people are always questioning whether their physician is actually doing a good job. Thank you for your service as a medic within a warzone. However, I am curious as a medic if you have to worry several years down the road whether a fellow soldier you provided treatment to would sue you after you worked day in and day out to give the the best possible care. I am also curious as a medic whether you have a low, but chronic fear that the license you have is tenuous, up for question, all your treatments placed under scrutiny, and that you can be completely stripped of everything that you worked towards for 7+ years and X amount of debt due to a single case that can linger on for years within a civil court system.

 

[907914]

years down the road whether a fellow soldier you provided treatment to would sue you after you worked day in and day out to give the the best possible care.

The stresses of combat =\= the stresses of being a physician.

This is not because one is more stressful than the other, but because they are completely different types of stress.

The threat of losing your job over little things from a lawsuit is very stressful, but it is a completely different avenue of stress than worrying that your battle buddy is going to kill themselves due to trauma.

Combat medics don’t have to worry about debt and licensure or lawsuits, but physicians don’t have to worry about literally carrying a bucket filled with their friend’s limbs while being actively shot at.

I am not saying that either is more or less stressful, but they are certainly not comparable in scope.

Edit: I know I know, you are returning fire not acting as a medic if you are under fire, but the point I am trying to make is the same either way.

 

[Select All That Apply]

@MemeLord You are correct, they are not comparable. Working in Zaire with an NGO during the frequent periods of civil war in the 1990s is a far different situation than going through a long, agonizing malpractice suit where a family is suing you for malpractice in the care of their child. I agree with you that the two circumstances are not equivalent, but one situation has been anecdotally more stressful than the other with the consequences being so severe that the physician in question attempted suicide after the board refused to reinstate their license.

I understand that waffling on both positions leaves you neutral and able to adopt either side, but physicians are systemically and systematically undervalued for the responsibility they have when it comes to acute patients. No one is going to question the combat medic who served in a warzone and for good reason. But many patients will question the hospitalist in their prognosis and treatment plan to the extent where the physician must act in order to not get sued rather than act in order to maximize outcomes for the patient in question.

 

[PikminOC]

Don't forget medical boards!

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

@FISTMCLARGEHUGE Physicians are systematically undervalued in the U.S. healthcare system and the stress that comes with that responsibility continually goes unacknowledged by most people to the point where people are always questioning whether their physician is actually doing a good job. Thank you for your service as a medic within a warzone. However, I am curious as a medic if you have to worry several years down the road whether a fellow soldier you provided treatment to would sue you after you worked day in and day out to give the the best possible care. I am also curious as a medic whether you have a low, but chronic fear that the license you have is tenuous, up for question, all your treatments placed under scrutiny, and that you can be completely stripped of everything that you worked towards for 7+ years and X amount of debt due to a single case that can linger on for years within a civil court system.

My hope was to bring up why a "what is worse" competition is wrong in a few ways and not to start one. I'm going to be honest a lot of the replies highlight the naivety of the original complaints. I understand things can be difficult as a doctor but the response to being shot at, having friends die, and a multitude of other things associated with combat medicine is "have you considered that you may be sued and need to do boards?" and it straight-up highlights the disassociation with the reality. Could life be better for physicians? Yes, 100%. Should we work towards that? Yes, 100%. However, the way this is approached and the borderline whiney tone from people clearing 6 figures is why there are frequent calls to cut physician salaries. You cannot sympathize with that approach.

Also if anyone is curious. Every time a soldier died I sat in a room with the entire medical command staff, leadership, and more. Every single treatment I did was analyzed and questioned. Less than a week after close friends died I had to defend every decision I made. This is a common occurrence. Not to mention if you lose a patient you may need to live in the same tent as 3 of their friends, wonder if you made a mistake, and continue to be in a combat zone with near-death experiences for the next few months. I had to justify using medical supplies on another and not myself with the argument being, "it is selfish to not choose your own life over your friends because you potentially could have treated more had you been treated and more likely to survive. Next time let them die and if you make that call again you won't be a medic on this team". Despite this, I will never invalidate someone else's opinion. I'm not entering the "worse lifestyle" competition, I'm highlighting that you can choose to avoid it. I won't tell someone they can't post here because they haven't been unhappy for 10 years. My own experiences does not invalidate other's opinions. I hope those who are entering into medicine do not adopt this "I had/have it bad, therefore I won the who had it worse competition and am the only one allowed to have an opinion". Regardless of position that person needs to be called out.

 

[PikminOC]

I am not trying to say mine is worse or better. Just want people to understand the stresses when they think only of the large dollar signs attached to medicine.

 

[clinicallabguy]

I'm not saying I want more money. Or want to be an investment banker. Please post here after ten years of practice

We're in a pre-medical student forum. You're suggesting that pre-medical students should wait to post here until they've been in practice for 10 years?

 

[Select All That Apply]

@FISTMCLARGEHUGE I disagree with you. I think physicians earn all six of their figures, especially with the **** show that was this summer with polytrauma, polysubstance abuse, and straight up aggressive CIWA/IVDU patients. In fact, the reason why I felt strongly obligated to respond to your post is because I could have easily been beaten down or ended up with a wrist fracture if it wasn't for how quick the physicians were to listen to me and give orders quickly to help me to stabilize my patients. When I asked for orders the physician did not waffle out on me and say, "Well I could give you haldol based on J Doe's last visit, but I'm not sure about long QT syn..." No. They saw what was going on and put in orders and I understand that they could have made a request for a 12-lead, CBC, CMP, UA, etc. etc. to be diagnostically in the clear. But they see when we are literally up ****s creek with no paddle or oar to speak of and they are willing to take an action even if it could bite them down the road.

I think that openly talking about the **** show situations that go on in medicine is particularly important and especially educational when a physician is being candid. I think that pre-meds are so innoculated in volunteer roles, lecture talks, and other scenarios that they don't actually know the patient demographic they are going to be treating. Septic Doe isn't always coming into town with a slight fever, diaphoresis, and abnormal WBC/BP/HR presentation. They probably have secondary issues that came along for the ride as well as a significant co-history that limits a significant number of treatments that can be done for them on admission. A physician being candid will not be sterile, they will not say that, "J Doe, age X, admit diag of Y..." They will complain about it and also about their patient load and it's because their patient load is ungodly. And it's a good thing, because they know the patient and they care. And now I know more about the patient because I don't know jack **** when it comes to pharmacological details about the nuances wrt empiric antibiotics. I think that a bigger issue happens when we shame physicians into being less candid and force them to treat potentially future colleagues like they are patients. I think that physician don't have an outlet to be open and I think that this is a mental health concern as I think they could benefit immensely from being honest, having a no-judgment nap in the breakroom, or just having time to breathe.

 

[PikminOC]

We're in a pre-medical student forum. You're suggesting that pre-medical students should wait to post here until they've been in practice for 10 years?

I want to make sure they know what they are getting into. It's not just about money. And nowadays, it's hard to get residency.
Poor ROI if no residency

Med School Enrollment Expands, Concern for Residency Slots Lingers

Enrollment in US medical schools has grown by 31% since 2002, but averting a physician shortage hinges on boosting the number of residency training slots.

www.medscape.com

 

[CidHighwind]

@FISTMCLARGEHUGE Physicians are systematically undervalued in the U.S. healthcare system and the stress that comes with that responsibility continually goes unacknowledged by most people to the point where people are always questioning whether their physician is actually doing a good job. Thank you for your service as a medic within a warzone. However, I am curious as a medic if you have to worry several years down the road whether a fellow soldier you provided treatment to would sue you after you worked day in and day out to give the the best possible care. I am also curious as a medic whether you have a low, but chronic fear that the license you have is tenuous, up for question, all your treatments placed under scrutiny, and that you can be completely stripped of everything that you worked towards for 7+ years and X amount of debt due to a single case that can linger on for years within a civil court system.

Part of the stress about that is the fact that medicine is privatized. If universal healthcare was a thing in this country, you wouldn’t have to worry about patients suing you, or crushing debt. That being said, you also wouldn’t have the really high specialty salaries that we have now.

 

[PikminOC]

Part of the stress about that is the fact that medicine is privatized. If universal healthcare was a thing in this country, you wouldn’t have to worry about patients suing you, or crushing debt. That being said, you also wouldn’t have the really high specialty salaries that we have now.

Wrong. None of the plans out there call for that. Too many lawyers in US

 

[CidHighwind]

Wrong. None of the plans out there call for that. Too many lawyers in US

It’s why doctors that work at the VA don’t get sued. Suing them means suing the US government. In other countries that’s how the law works. Maybe the lawyers will go after the hospital and/or the state, but the physician is not the target anymore.

 

[PikminOC]

It’s why doctors that work at the VA don’t get sued. Suing them means suing the US government. In other countries that’s how the law works. Maybe the lawyers will go after the hospital and/or the state, but the physician is not the target anymore.

The doctors still have repercussions

'Candy Man' of Tomah VA agrees to surrender medical license

A former Tomah Veterans Administration Medical Center doctor accused of overprescribing opioids has agreed to surrender his medical license, documents released Wednesday show.

www.google.com

 

[907914]

The doctors still have repercussions

'Candy Man' of Tomah VA agrees to surrender medical license

A former Tomah Veterans Administration Medical Center doctor accused of overprescribing opioids has agreed to surrender his medical license, documents released Wednesday show.

www.google.com

So you are defending a psychiatrist that overly prescribed opioids to the point that he was known as “Candy Man”? VA or private practice, pretty sure this guy deserved retiribution.

 

[Select All That Apply]

@CidHighwind Good points.

 

[PikminOC]

So you are defending a psychiatrist that overly prescribed opioids to the point that he was known as “Candy Man”? VA or private practice, pretty sure this guy deserved retiribution.

Yes. The point is there's still consequences.

Regarding universal health care on the US, people will not stand for VA care

 

[PikminOC]

And there's nothing in the universal health care proposals that cuts out lawyers and tort reform

 

[PikminOC]

Also per Op, cant compare residency salary to regular jobs as residents work 60 to 80 hours a week

 

[907914]

Yes. The point is there's still consequences.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there won't be consequences for overtly breaking the rules and true illegal activity. Under a socialized medicine system, however, a physician would not necessarily have to worry about being sued by a family that thinks the doctor did the wrong thing even though they did the right thing.

 

[CidHighwind]

Also per Op, cant compare residency salary to regular jobs as residents work 60 to 80 hours a week

Many people making 50-60k are working 50 to 60 hour weeks. You think everyone gets all their weekends off? Also what is your agenda? It seems like you want to push the narrative of doom and gloom about the medical profession.

 

[907914]

Many people making 50-60k are working 50 to 60 hour weeks

Can confirm - my first civilian job I made about $58K in six months before quitting because it was 5 10s with on call every other night. **** sucks, it isn't just residents who go through that.