Hopkins or Stanford MD/PhD

[eatsalot]

Hi!

I've been very lucky and very blessed to have this decision, but I was wondering if anyone could help me evaluate Hopkins/Stanford? This has been difficult to think about because I know they are both great programs and I guess I can't really go wrong, but I'm sincerely asking for help/advice. I have looked at many, many other threads but haven't really gotten much use from them. (I promise I'm not trying to troll or be annoying.. :/)

Is there anything significant with the following criteria that I should keep in mind?

-each program's ability to train physician-scientists
-quality of preclinical education
-quality of PhD education
-research opportunities (not just number but quality as well)
-quality of clinical education
-reputation
-colleagues
-environment
-residency placement
-other relevant considerations

Thanks in advance!

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[gutonc]

Is there anything significant with the following criteria that I should keep in mind?

-each program's ability to train physician-scientists

No

-quality of preclinical education

No

-quality of PhD education

Depends on your area of research but, for the most part...No

-research opportunities (not just number but quality as well)

Again, will depend on your research but generally...wait for it...No

-quality of clinical education

Debatable. Hopkins is a more clinically "rigorous" program than Stanford. You will get your ass worked there. And you'll learn a lot. Stanford is generally considered a more relaxed atmosphere but it's not like you won't learn a ton and come out a good clinician there.
TL;DR...No.

-reputation

You're joking right?

-colleagues

There will be more smart people around at either place than you'll know what to do with. The ones at Stanford will be marginally less uptight than the ones at Hopkins.

-environment

Do you mean the campus/academic environment? If so, No. Do you mean location? If so....

-residency placement

No

-other relevant considerations

Which did you like better? Where can you see yourself living for the next 7-9 years? Where did you find 4 or 5 labs you'd be interested in working? Choose that one.

 

[CrossCurrent]

Train physician scientists: Probably equal. Really depends on the individual
Quality of preclinical education: This is probably the same everywhere, and not really looked at for residency anyway
Quality of PhD education: Heavily dependent on your mentor.
Research opportunities: Hopkins has more PIs than Stanford in total, but this is research field specific. Stanford PIs have on average more funding per capita than Hopkins PIs
Quality of Clinical Education: Edge probaby goes to Hopkins because you'll be seeing a more diverse patient population.
Reputation: Equal, with the caveat that Stanford is probably more well known internationally (for reasons other than medicine in comparison to Hopkins)
Colleagues: I'd give the edge here to Stanford. They are really collaborative.
Environment: Baltimore vs. Palo Alto. Enough said.
Residency placement: check their websites. About the same.
Other relevant considerations: cost of living in Baltimore is a lot less than it is at Stanford, but Palo Alto has much better weather and is a much safer city.

Cheers

 

[MVP]

I'm not an expert on either program, but I'll give you a biased answer:

Stanford has better research rankings in nearly every conceivable category. That's good for any collaborations you might want to do outside your specific department. The school in the same tier as Harvard, Berkeley, MIT, and Caltech. It's in the middle of the paradise for tech companies--hardware, software, biotech, venture capital. If you have dreams of doing great research that can translate into products and services, its theoretically a great choice.

The bay area is a great place to live. It's ridiculously wealthy and educated, and the weather is perfect. Having said that, the whole state is pretty segregated by income and ethnicity, and the bay area is no exception. I've never lived on the East Coast, so I can't compare. Only you can judge if the social climate is right for you.

 

[erutha95]

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[gutonc]

Someone above also said Stanford is more laid back, but I have heard that the research environment at Stanford is rather cutthroat.

I said the clinical environment is more laid back than at Hopkins. I said nothing about the research environment.

 

[debateg]

They both are good programs. You're going to have decent clinical and research training at either. The locations, however, are very, very different.

You will spend the next 8 years of your life either in Baltimore or in the Bay Area. By the end of that, you may have found a mate, married, and had children. Now consider yourself 30 years old and looking back on all aspects of your life for the last 8 years. Did you find it more fulfilling to be in the Bay Area or Baltimore?

 

[LADoc00]

Stanford is like a massive luxury spa. Spend 8-9 years here and you will be as soft as can be. Weak, like a newborn baby with wall full of fancy diplomas and not much common sense.

I had a good buddy who went to JHU, did his surg. residency there and "cried himself to sleep" every night as an intern. He was a bad azz, born again HARD, like a US Marine version of a surgeon.

I went back to sipping my appletini in my OTT metrosexual clothes at a bar in San Francisco when he was telling me his story and I felt ashamed...ashamed...

 

[LADoc00]

There is nothing "cutthroat" at Stanford aside from the line at 8am at the Peet's coffee on the 3rd floor of the Translational Research building...cutthroat and Stanford should never be used in the same sentence EVER, its an insult to actual Pirates and Cutthroats..

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

For an MD/PhD, it doesn't matter. Both are superb places in terms of research opportunities.

The main difference is the location, which is very different (ghetto East coast city vs. perennially warm West coast town).

Clinically I've heard of Hopkins being quite malignant, at least Hopkins IM and GS. Not really heard the same for Stanford.

 

[MetalGearFox]

First off, congrats on your accomplishments. Second, medical/grad training will be difficult enough as it is. Pick the place where you will be less miserable because in this case both schools are of a high caliber in terms of research and training.

 

[Watson104]

-other relevant considerations

Where's your family, support system, & friends located? For most Palo Alto vs Baltimore seems like a no-brainer. But if you have a lot of family & friends on the east coast (ie in Baltimore or DC or Philly) or went to college there, being close to them shouldn't be discounted. It's a tough 8 yrs on somewhat limited funds and flying West to East coast more than once a yr for holidays is tough. Not to say it should be your only consideration, but add that to the list. For me, I feel like I can do 3-4 years anywhere. But location & family for me were taken more into account when I was planning on spending close to a decade in a location. I would have been miserable if I had stayed in my far away undergrad location. Now, I'm significantly closer to home (much shorter plane ride) and I really appreciate it 6 yrs into this program.

 

[erutha95]

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[erutha95]

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[Fencer]

A factor that has NOT been discussed is the area of research interest of the OP. As a clinician scientist very familiar with that particular area, Hopkins offers a significantly better research and clinical training than Stanford.

 

[FactorX]

1) Who is the director, do you like them, and if so does it seem like the will stick around during your time in the program? Do they seem competent and responsive to students problems?

2) Who is the administrator that deals with nitty gritty details like making sure you get paid on time? Many programs have an administrator (often female) who acts as a program "mom" and looks after the students to make sure everything is going OK. This person may even be more important than the program director in terms of actual impact on your life.

+1. I completely agree with these, especially the administrator. At the program where I intend to matriculate, the administrator is super awesome, and that helped me a lot in making a decision.

 

[eatsalot]

A factor that has NOT been discussed is the area of research interest of the OP. As a clinician scientist very familiar with that particular area, Hopkins offers a significantly better research and clinical training than Stanford.

Thanks for all the help so far! This has been really insightful.

As for my area of research interest, I am very interested in neuroscience (in particular, cellular/molecular neuroscience). Does this change things? I've heard that Hopkins is very, very strong in neuroscience, but have heard that Stanford is also just as good?

How is the clinical environment at Stanford? Does being in the Hopkins hospital make a big difference if I am only a medical student and not a resident?

 

[erutha95]

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[Neuronix]

Do you have a location preference? I'd pick based on that.

 

[dl2dp2]

Hopkins is a powerhouse in neuroscience research, neurology, and neurosurgery. Though I feel that the top ~10 medical schools are pretty equivalent on an aggregate basis, I would feel comfortable saying that Hopkins is the #1 place in the world if you want to be a physician/scientist in the neurosciences.

I'm not really sure about this. Given that I've been in neuroscience for a number of years, I actually feel that Hopkins is somewhat second tier (i.e. second tier in the first tier) in the neurosciences, and certainly it wouldn't be #1 in the world, if such a thing exists. I'm from neither institution.

These schools are not really very similar. I think you need to go on the revisits to see. I was not in the position to pick either of the schools back when I was applying, but I think if I was applying then I'd probably gone to Hopkins, which would be a mistake for me I think, in the end--that is to say, if I was in your shoes today I'd pick Stanford. But you are not me and things are different for everyone. Given you got into both you might want to wait to see if you can get into a few more and then make a decision.

 

[gutonc]

Do you have a location preference? I'd pick based on that.

^^This.

Location and personal fit/gut feeling. You're going to be there for 8+ years, if you hate the place and people it's going to be a long 8 years.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

If I were given the choice I would pick Stanford without a doubt. Stanford is one of the very best schools in the nation for basic biology, along with places like Harvard and Rockefeller. And that does include neuroscience, immunology, cell biology, etc. The location is 100x better and safer than Baltimore. And it doesn't have quite the cut-throat reputation of Hopkins.

 

[Spacedman]

Hopkins is a powerhouse in neuroscience research, neurology, and neurosurgery. Though I feel that the top ~10 medical schools are pretty equivalent on an aggregate basis, I would feel comfortable saying that Hopkins is the #1 place in the world if you want to be a physician/scientist in the neurosciences.

This is where things like regional prestige and networking come into play. If you want to do a residency in neurology at Hopkins, which is a top tier program, you are in better shape if you did your MD/PhD at Hopkins. If you go to Stanford, you'd be in better shape for a neurology residency at Stanford (which is probably not on the same level as Hopkins' residency), or to a lesser extent at UCSF (which is on par with Hopkins' residency).

Now obviously there are people that switch coasts for their residency, and any top program will give you a chance to match into the best residencies. However, networking and name recognition is important, and doing your PhD and clinical rotations with people who are known by/involved with your home residency program will give you a leg up.

i'm a resident @ stanford, and have a number of colleagues (fellows, attendings) fresh from a hopkins stint. a couple thoughts, echoing much of what's been said already:
- this is an awesome problem to have
- i went to a great school in a $hitty city in the northeast for some years- no regrets, other than the weather.
- palo alto = shorts in february
- as far as neuroscience, i have to qualify the quoted text above: deisseroth, malenka, sudhof, shatz, shenoy... tip of the iceberg. i chose stanford for residency/postdoc etc entirely based on the neuroscience opportunities.
- for what it's worth, the rep of stanford med student rotators errs on the side of "coddled", and it wouldn't be the first time i've heard things like what LAdoc00 says. that said, it's pretty ridiculous to characterize a school like that. many notable exceptions.
- at least in the ORs, the general vibe is less stressful than in certain east coast institutions
- provided you graduate without committing a felony, you will go to whichever neurology or psychiatry program you want.

 

[FSAP]

I grew up in Baltimore and I would never live in Homewood for eight years. Sure, a four year med school stint might not be that bad but double that? No way. There are nice areas around Baltimore but the suburbs are expensive and you will have to commute.

 

[erutha95]

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[sp808]

Not to nit pick, but the Hopkins medical school isn't in Homewood.

A lot of people live near Homewood and commute to the medical school via the shuttle. The area around there isn't bad though, I wouldn't mind living there for another 10 years although it wouldn't be ideal.

 

[Watson104]

1) Who is the director, do you like them, and if so does it seem like the will stick around during your time in the program? Do they seem competent and responsive to students problems?

2) Who is the administrator that deals with nitty gritty details like making sure you get paid on time? Many programs have an administrator (often female) who acts as a program "mom" and looks after the students to make sure everything is going OK. This person may even be more important than the program director in terms of actual impact on your life.

Oh I agree with these statements too! How the program is run and it's role in the relationship between the med and grad schools (BFFs w both, a bit antagonistic but fighting for your best interests, just an observer who only steps in during dire situations, or MIA) can make a huge difference in your happiness & success. Some programs send you off to grad school and say let us know when you've defended. Others are intimately involved with both administrations and make sure random new requirements are reasonable requests and don't impede your return to clinic.

I know a lot of the last few comments are about who has better neuroscience. There are more than a couple awesome neuroscience mentors (or at least well respected in the field who knows about advising quality) at, I'd hazard, all MSTPs. Between Hopkins & Stanford, even more. You only get one PhD mentor. So for me, that wouldn't weigh into my consideration.

So I'd make the choice based on: where's your support system? how's the MSTP admin? where do you *really* want to live? what's your gut feeling telling you?

 

[sakata8242]

Neither. You couldn't pay me enough to live in Cali or Maryland.

Seriously though, if you're smart enough to get offers at both institutions you're likely going to be outstanding regardless of where you go.