Hospitalist attending thinking about joining AF

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RealHamji

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Hello, I'm a hospitalist who has graduated residency 1.5 years ago now and I'm considering joining the airforce as a flight surgeon. I am fortunate in that I don't have any debts. The main reason for this career shift change is because I'm of Korean origin and I really miss being in Korea where my parents are and that's really the main reason. Many people I've talked to said that this is the worst idea ever.

1. How long is stateside? I've been told it's 1 year but can it be shortened?
2. There are 2 air force bases in Korea (kunsan and osan) and how easy is it to be stationed there? If I don't get stationed in Korea, it kind of defeats the whole purpose for why I would be joining the air force.
3. Would it be possible to homestead in Korea? Preferably osan? And if so, how long would it be possible for?

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The more you want to go somewhere , the less likely the military is to send you there.

Joining the AF just to move to Korea really is a poor plan.
 
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Hello, I'm a hospitalist who has graduated residency 1.5 years ago now and I'm considering joining the airforce as a flight surgeon. I am fortunate in that I don't have any debts. The main reason for this career shift change is because I'm of Korean origin and I really miss being in Korea where my parents are and that's really the main reason. Many people I've talked to said that this is the worst idea ever.

1. How long is stateside? I've been told it's 1 year but can it be shortened?
2. There are 2 air force bases in Korea (kunsan and osan) and how easy is it to be stationed there? If I don't get stationed in Korea, it kind of defeats the whole purpose for why I would be joining the air force.
3. Would it be possible to homestead in Korea? Preferably osan? And if so, how long would it be possible for?
Agree with @armytrainingsir on this one. Joining the military to try to go to a specific base or area is not a good idea. It's an absolute crap shoot of where you'll end up and it all depends on the needs of the air force. If they happened to have an opening for a flight surgeon in one of those bases and the stars aligned that you were chosen to go there, then good for you. But counting on that to happen is about as likely as getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery. Please please please do not join for the hopes of being sent to a specific area. You will be greatly disappointed. Also, practicing medicine in the military is a completely different beast than the civ world, especially as a flight surgeon. Your entire goal is to keep the flyers able to fly. You'll be doing a whole lot more than just seeing active duty members in a clinic.

1. Most assignments are in the 3-4 year range but different variables and circumstances can change that.
2. yes those are the 2 korean bases for air force. But again getting stationed at either one is a massive dice roll with lots of other options that you may not be happy with. And it sounds like if you don't get Korea, you're going to be unhappy so the odds are HEAVILY stacked against you that you will get stationed there at least right off the bat.
3.Homesteading is one of those things that is possible as I mean I've heard of it happening but I don't know the person specifically. And that was only like one person I've heard of doing it because no one else wanted to go to Korea. It was a psychiatrist though, not sure for flight medicine. And again, see #2.
 
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Thanks for the replies everyone. These are definitely food for thought and it's making me reconsider my options.
 
1. Get a Hawaii license (flight time Seoul - HNL is about 8 hours)
2. Establish yourself as a 'permanent locum' for some of the hospitals in Hawaii [if you go for some of the neighbor island hospitals you will have to be comfortable with providing care in an open-ICU environment ... sounds scarier than it actually is... (BUT those hospitals will always have a need for locums ....)
3. If you still want to become a flight surgeon - join an Air Force Reserve unit (there should be something in Hawaii as well) ... that will keep that option open for you for 'later-in-life' with the bases in Korea (as IMA perhaps -- but I do not know really anything about that....).
 
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and I really miss being in Korea where my parents are and that's really the main reason. Many people I've talked to said that this is the worst idea ever.

It is the worst idea ever. And that a physician---someone who's gone through pre-med, medical school residency, ie a presumably smart person (although as I get further along in this business, I'm more frequently reminded how dumb physicians can be, this case in point)---can have such an idea is beyond me.

So move to Korea, or vacation there frequently. Why on earth would you join the military to get proximity to your parents?
 
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It is the worst idea ever. And that a physician---someone who's gone through pre-med, medical school residency, ie a presumably smart person (although as I get further along in this business, I'm more frequently reminded how dumb physicians can be, this case in point)---can have such an idea is beyond me.

So move to Korea, or vacation there frequently. Why on earth would you join the military to get proximity to your parents?
Seriously! I joined the military to move away from my parents
 
If you are interested in working for the military in Korea see if they have any GS positions or contractor positions. Civilians working at overseas hospitals are actually pretty helpful for stability. No reason to join the Air Force if you have a specific geographic goal in mind.
 
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I did check. One thing is that civilian pay is actually worse once you become O4 and of course, since it's contract, no pension.
 
Are you trying to say the pay as a contract physician was less than O4 pay? I’m not internal medicine but I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a contractor who wasn’t making more than the active duty so that’s surprising.
 
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Look up the IMA program. It is where you can be a reservist but have more or less no obligation as to when you serve, so long as you knock out like 30 days a year. Even people familiar with the military often have no idea about this. Whether or not they need docs right now, no idea. But the website is this: Home

And a page lists the point of contact for Hawaii/Pacific Command as:
Email: [email protected]
Phone:
DSN - 315-449-0585 Commercial - 808-449-0585

If you communicate with them your qualifications and desire to serve in the military, they may point you to someone that knows some things. If it all works out, you'd probably be able to work pretty consistently at whatever major base you want in the Pacific.
 
Are you trying to say the pay as a contract physician was less than O4 pay? I’m not internal medicine but I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a contractor who wasn’t making more than the active duty so that’s surprising.
Yeah. If I start being a flight surgeon, my estimated pay would be 180k right off the bat and I would be an O3 and my understanding would be that I would be climbing the rank in 1-2 years to O4 and my pay would climb and along with that there is the military retirement benefit that you can reap from vs. basically a flat 1099 200k salary for contract physician.
 
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It is the worst idea ever. And that a physician---someone who's gone through pre-med, medical school residency, ie a presumably smart person (although as I get further along in this business, I'm more frequently reminded how dumb physicians can be, this case in point)---can have such an idea is beyond me.

So move to Korea, or vacation there frequently. Why on earth would you join the military to get proximity to your parents?
It may sound really dumb but I've always had a wonderful relationship with my parents and seeing them grow older and weaker makes me sad and I want to be there for them. Plus as a hospitalist, I've seen what it's like for older patients who has family support vs. none and it can be drastic. I want to be there for my parents.
 
Look up the IMA program. It is where you can be a reservist but have more or less no obligation as to when you serve, so long as you knock out like 30 days a year. Even people familiar with the military often have no idea about this. Whether or not they need docs right now, no idea. But the website is this: Home

And a page lists the point of contact for Hawaii/Pacific Command as:
Email: [email protected]
Phone:
DSN - 315-449-0585 Commercial - 808-449-0585

If you communicate with them your qualifications and desire to serve in the military, they may point you to someone that knows some things. If it all works out, you'd probably be able to work pretty consistently at whatever major base you want in the Pacific.
This is a really cool program. I've never even realized this. Thanks for letting me know. I'll make sure to check it out.
 
Everyone's been telling me that it is a bad idea to join for the reasons and I really appreciate the replies since you guys have all given me food for thought but I don't think anyone has actually answered my questions yet...
 
Everyone's been telling me that it is a bad idea to join for the reasons and I really appreciate the replies since you guys have all given me food for thought but I don't think anyone has actually answered my questions yet...
The more you want to go somewhere , the less likely the military is to send you there.

Joining the AF just to move to Korea really is a poor plan.
I think this guy was on target.
 
Everyone's been telling me that it is a bad idea to join for the reasons and I really appreciate the replies since you guys have all given me food for thought but I don't think anyone has actually answered my questions yet...

Because it is just such a stupid idea.

But really I don’t understand? Why can’t you just go back to Korea and live with your parents if that’s what you want to do? It says you can stay 90 days without a visa in Korea at a time; but you may already have citizenship if you were born there? Or get a visa? How long does it take to get a medical license in Korea from a US physician? Or just work as a civilian and make more money and pay for your parents to come here?
 
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It may sound really dumb but I've always had a wonderful relationship with my parents and seeing them grow older and weaker makes me sad and I want to be there for them. Plus as a hospitalist, I've seen what it's like for older patients who has family support vs. none and it can be drastic. I want to be there for my parents.
So he isn’t saying it is dumb to want to relocate near your parents. He’s saying that joining an organization that is fairly famous for frequently relocating people against their will in order to get to a specific location to support your parents is not a good plan. Basically you would likely be making it harder for you to be there for your parents, not easier.
 
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So in addition to all the answers you got above - just a couple of additional things you need to consider:

1. The 'joining' process takes time - you should calculate AT LEAST one year for that ... so if you want to be there for your parents in the short term... not happening ( + in addition you will have to pass MEPS etc ....)
2. You will need to go through flight surgeon training - (in addition to passing a 'flight physical - flying class II' - which is stricter than MEPS ... so basically if there is ANYTHING in your health history this will come up ... - I guess (basically this is speculation) on the reserve side things might be a bit more lenient with that ... but with your AD plans guess it could very well happen that if you do not pass that flight physical you might end up being used as an 'internist' (somewhere were you are needed) instead of a 'flight surgeon in S.Korea'. Flight surgeon training is US based and that will again take some more time which again will definitively not put you close to your parents (+and this excludes the around 2 month you would be spending in Alabama for OTS...).
3. You will need a security clearance ... (this is again a speculation ... but guess for the S.Korean bases that will be a 'Top Secret' one given the current geopolitical situation). Given that you have a clear 'foreign influence' this could be another barrier you have to overcome ...
 
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Yeah. If I start being a flight surgeon, my estimated pay would be 180k right off the bat and I would be an O3 and my understanding would be that I would be climbing the rank in 1-2 years to O4 and my pay would climb and along with that there is the military retirement benefit that you can reap from vs. basically a flat 1099 200k salary for contract physician.
If you seek military retirement, with a first assignment to Korea as an active duty physician, don't expect to stay in Korea for more than two to three years - likely the normal accompanied tour in Korea. You will PCS from Korea - don't count on 'homesteading' to care for your parents or significant time off when stationed elsewhere.

You do know that military retirement pay is a % of base pay and does not include incentives, specialty pay, accession/retention bonus, or housing allowance in the calculation?
 
Agree with @armytrainingsir on this one. Joining the military to try to go to a specific base or area is not a good idea. It's an absolute crap shoot of where you'll end up and it all depends on the needs of the air force. If they happened to have an opening for a flight surgeon in one of those bases and the stars aligned that you were chosen to go there, then good for you. But counting on that to happen is about as likely as getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery. Please please please do not join for the hopes of being sent to a specific area. You will be greatly disappointed. Also, practicing medicine in the military is a completely different beast than the civ world, especially as a flight surgeon. Your entire goal is to keep the flyers able to fly. You'll be doing a whole lot more than just seeing active duty members in a clinic.

1. Most assignments are in the 3-4 year range but different variables and circumstances can change that.
2. yes those are the 2 korean bases for air force. But again getting stationed at either one is a massive dice roll with lots of other options that you may not be happy with. And it sounds like if you don't get Korea, you're going to be unhappy so the odds are HEAVILY stacked against you that you will get stationed there at least right off the bat.
3.Homesteading is one of those things that is possible as I mean I've heard of it happening but I don't know the person specifically. And that was only like one person I've heard of doing it because no one else wanted to go to Korea. It was a psychiatrist though, not sure for flight medicine. And again, see #2.
Ummm....

1. How long is stateside? I've been told it's 1 year but can it be shortened?
2. There are 2 air force bases in Korea (kunsan and osan) and how easy is it to be stationed there? If I don't get stationed in Korea, it kind of defeats the whole purpose for why I would be joining the air force.
3. Would it be possible to homestead in Korea? Preferably osan? And if so, how long would it be possible for?
 
1. How long is stateside? I've been told it's 1 year but can it be shortened? Application, acceptance, commissioning, orders, basic training, selection for flight surgeon training, flight physicals and waivers, flt surgeon course. Probably closer to 2 years, certainly not less than a year. Maybe even 3.
2. There are 2 air force bases in Korea (kunsan and osan) and how easy is it to be stationed there
Not easy. HARD. If I don't get stationed in Korea, it kind of defeats the whole purpose for why I would be joining the air force.This has been answered to death. Piss poor idea.
3. Would it be possible to homestead in Korea? Preferably osan? And if so, how long would it be possible for? Not possible. You’ll be lucky to spend 3 years there out of twenty. Perhaps 6 out of 20, but not likely.

There you go.


I will say this; you do show command potential as you seem to disregard everything that anyone with more experience has told you and you don’t seem to have the ability to process anything other than black/white yes/no information.
 
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@RealHamji And to further beat this dead horse: If you were to go on active duty and somehow miraculously find yourself in Korea, this does not mean you buy a house and live a normal 9-5 or shift work. If you are a flight surgeon, you are liable to be traveling the world on short notice, for days, weeks, or months at a time. This is not "if another war happens", this is to go to various trainings and consistent missions that happen every year without fail.

What you are looking for is stability of location in perhaps the one career that can absolutely never guarantee that. Look into the reserves or IMA if you want to serve and maybe that can help you get somewhat close to Korea, but I can say with the utmost confidence that active duty would be a terrible idea for you.
 
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I hope this reply is not considered a necro at 10 days, but I feel that, given the OPs almost unbelievably thickheaded responses to the wise counsel granted him by the docs here, a bit of repetition may prove to be the mother of learning, even if it seems as though I am subjecting a deceased equine to relentless pandae chirugi (reverse punches in Tae Kwon Do).

Executive Summary/TL;DR: The only way you will ever be stationed at X as active-duty USAF is if you absolutely never want to be stationed at X. The best hope you have is a documented clinical diagnosis of severe phobia of everything having to do with X, from food, language, culture, clothing, to music, because you were almost beaten to death in your youth by a biker gang from X. This will guarantee you get mandatory orders to report to X tomorrow.

A brief history of my experience with the Air Force assignment system circa 1994-2005:

After anesthesiology residency at Wilford Hall, Lackland AFB, Tx, I wanted to get my mandatory overseas assignment out of the way. I knew that DEROS (Date of Estimated Return from Overseas) was an evil gargoyle that stared down at you mercilessly during your career with an eldritch glare until it was placated by your blood, sweat and tears OCONUS (outside the Continental U.S.). Thus, I optimistically and naively put on my assignment "dream sheet":

1) Germany-- anywhere. I had taught/tutored German at Harvard.
2) Japan-- anywhere. I had taught/tutored Japanese at Harvard.
3) Korea-- anywhere, unaccompanied if necessary (18 months). I spoke some Korean after 15 years of Korean martial arts (Moo Duk Kwan, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc.), and knew that I could learn the language quickly, given the similarities in Chomskyan deep structure with Japanese, which is another agglutinative Altaic language (controversial, but I was taught this theory years ago).
4) England-- anywhere. I speak English on a good day.
5) Andrews AFB-- to be close to my parents and other family, all of whom lived in Maryland

Accordingly, the Air Force carefully considered my preferences and gave me orders to Travis AFB, CA, 3,000 miles away from my parents, and not overseas. The reason I got from AFPC was that I was overqualified for the overseas assignments as an anesthesiologist. The computer only had round holes for CRNAs, and I was a square. Moreover, behind my back, my program director had hand-picked me and an excellent residency colleague of mine (hi, Kev) to go to Travis to clean up a disaster caused when a lazy former senior resident of mine got sent to Travis and refused to come in for an emergency surgery, resulting in the active-duty patient's death. My residency director knew that I would respond to a page and go in to the hospital rather than whine for hours until someone else was available to do the case (long story).

I had a good time at Travis from 1994-1998, when civil war broke out between the anesthesiologists and CRNAs, the latter of whom wanted to practice completely independently on all patients, no matter how sick, regardless of then-current Air Force and Medical Group regulations mandating the Anesthesia Care Team model. After my Flight Commander got fired for dereliction of duty for failure to enforce good order and discipline (when the chief CRNA stood up and stated at a flight meeting that she refused to obey his orders to conform to Air Force and Med Group Instructions), I was given orders to Elmendorf AFB, Alaska, UNaccompanied for three years without my two autistic children and active-duty Air Force physician wife, who was currently on the OB deck on mag for premature labor with my third son, who ended up being born at 34 weeks. Note that Elmendorf was usually (always) an accompanied tour, except when evil people feel the need to abuse their power to get back at you for any reason whatsoever, such as, for example, blatantly advocating medical direction of anesthesia as the Medical Director of Anesthesia (which was my title during the entire psychodrama at Travis).

I later found out this inhumane assignment situation was ONCE AGAIN the work of my former residency director, who was now the Consultant for Anesthesiology, because he was reprising against me for my part in having his Air Force Academy *and* USUHS classmate and butt buddy fired after the Command Directed Investigation by HQ AMC determined that he was not up for the job, which required standing up to loud, red-headed O-5 females as an O-6 physician.

I was told with a smirk over the phone that, although my three children were EFMP, I wasn't, and, because Elmendorf couldn't handle special needs kids (and, per their SGH's phone call with me, had had asthmatic children die there due to lack of pediatrician support), I would have to pack my bags and plan to be apart from my family for a mandatory three year "overseas" assignment in sunny Alaska.

Only herculean appeals by myself and my then-wife to HQ AFPC and the leadership of Air Force EFMP program managed to get this overturned. After Elmendorf was spiked, it turned out that the only place that the Air Force could send me where there was adequate expertise in developmental pediatrics other than Travis was Andrews, where I could take my kids to WRAMC and/or NHB, which was fine by me.

(Five years of drama at Malcolm Grow redacted, including my getting a career-ending Letter of Reprimand for arranging for transport of a pediatric trauma patient to Walter Reed at the request of the patient's mother, which pissed off testosterone-toxic ortho surgeons who wanted to play, despite our hospital's lack of any pediatric capability whatsoever after years of downsizing).

At the end of 11 years of ADSC (active duty service commitment) payback (4 for ROTC at Harvard/M.I.T., 7 for USUHS, with the 4 years of internship and residency not counting), I told my boss and AFPC that I would consider staying in the Air Force if I got a PCA assignment to USUHS as a professor (which I already was). It would cost the Air Force zero dollars not to move me. It would enable me to teach, which I had always loved; my then-wife could keep her civilian practice. I planned to work a few days per month in Bethesda, and then continue to work at Andrews as much as the Air Force needed me.

"No can do," I was told. "You are going to Keesler to be commanded by a CRNA O-5 who has date of rank on you."

"Is that my only option?"

"Yes."

Honestly, I had a bad feeling about moving my three Chinese-American children to the prejudiced Deep South. I also worried about my ex-Air Force wife having to close her civilian practice and break her lease to follow me, or else stay in Maryland while I (again) was condemned to three years alone and unaccompanied by my family. I also had a strange feeling that something very threatening was looming on the edge of my awareness. I have always been attuned to nature; something about going to Mississippi in the summer of 2005 did not feel right at all.

Accordingly, even though AFPC did not at first believe it, I resigned my Regular commission (which everyone gets from USU) and walked away after 15 total years toward retirement with nothing (note that the 4 years in uniform at USU do not count toward retirement until you do 20 years, then they add the 4 years on, thanks to DOPMA).

A few months later, hurricane Katrina leveled Keesler and destroyed the hospital. I would have lost everything I owned, and possibly my life, had I gone along with the perverse Air Force assignment system, which is purposely designed by evil people who don't care about you to give you the exact opposite of what you want at every turn in your career, because the "needs of the Air Force" means precisely that your needs are irrelevant, let alone your wants.

The End.
 
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Thank you everyone for giving me such wonderful life advices but as I'm thick-headed, I have signed the contract. That is all.
 
That's a joke. I did not sign it and I think I did need a big hammer to hit me with everyone's unfortunate life stories and really needed reality to set in. I do believe that I will scrap this air force plan.
 
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That's a joke. I did not sign it and I think I did need a big hammer to hit me with everyone's unfortunate life stories and really needed reality to set in. I do believe that I will scrap this air force plan.

Thank you @RealHamji for scrapping that plan. You just saved your potential future chain of command (at Eglin AFB, where you would've been stationed) lots of heartache and consternation, in dealing with a physician with Adjustment Disorder.

That we even come close to recruiting people with your mindset is very telling of our dismal and desperate state in the MC.
 
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Thank you everyone for giving me such wonderful life advices but as I'm thick-headed, I have signed the contract. That is all.
You had me at first lol. Think you made the right decision though.
 
I hope this reply is not considered a necro at 10 days, but I feel that, given the OPs almost unbelievably thickheaded responses to the wise counsel granted him by the docs here, a bit of repetition may prove to be the mother of learning,
Great write-up. Fyi: civilian national anesthesia management companies do the same musical-chair drama.
 
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