How are old tests not cheating?

[bajoneswadup]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

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[CodeBlu]

Because it's up to the instructor to change the test. No it's not cheating.

 

[DinoSaysRawr]

I'm going to go ask my friend for his old Gen Chem lab exams. Thanks OP!

 

[BHaus9]

At my undergrad we had to sign the cover page of each exam, right beneath an abstract from the student honor code stating we cannot disseminate exam materials without the professor's consent. Furthermore, in many of my classes, we had 24 hours to review a graded exam and then had to hand it back in. Imo, these were good policies, because even if looking at old exams is not cheating, it is certainly a strategy/resource that people don't have equal access to.

 

[Eric552]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

Yep, this was very common at my university as well. If you were in a group of friends that didn't have access to old tests, you were at a HUGE disadvantage as the tests were only changed very slightly. Also, it seemed like the majority of the class would get them one form or another. So, this also lead to an inflated curve. I was the victim of this quite a few times. It sucked, but was purely the fault of the professor.

 

[mitchlucker]

it is certainly a strategy/resource that people don't have equal access to.

Way of the world...

 

[Stumpyman]

You certainly do learn more if you ace the exams without previous tests. Also, I wasn't popular enough for people to give me old exams/quizzes in into bio and chem.

 

[kpcrew]

I never used previous exams and I still did fine in most of my classes. Just study up or find people who can help you. The material is going to be the same and you still need to know it. Exams aren't the end in themselves, they are there to test your mastery of the material. Some of my professors even gave out old exams for people to study from. Their benefit is not in the actual questions asked but the feeling of how the questions are asked. There are no old exams when you're a practicing physician.

 

[PantherPride]

In my gen chem and calc classes, the professors actually posts old exams, several in fact, on the class' website.

 

[flodhi1]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

It is very common at my school, people put minimal effort get old exams and get an A in the class. However, it really makes me laugh when kids do stuff like obtaining old exams because when time comes for the MCAT it bites them in the ass. One of my "acquaintances" has a 4.0 because he has a lot of networking/friends, he honestly puts in minimal work at school and when he took the MCAT he got a 24. He was whining about it over the phone saying, "Man I have a 4.0 how could I possibly score this bad on the MCAT". I pretty much told him that dude did you really deserve a 4.0 and the true colors really do come out on the MCAT. So, OP I know it's annoying but it's really none of your business. You should put maximal effort into your studies and it will pay off in the long run.

 

[Stumpyman]

It is very common at my school, people put minimal effort get old exams and get an A in the class. However, it really makes me laugh when kids do stuff like obtaining old exams because when time comes for the MCAT it bites them in the ass. One of my "acquaintances" has a 4.0 because he has a lot of networking/friends, he honestly puts in minimal work at school and when he took the MCAT he got a 24. He was whining about it over the phone saying, "Man I have a 4.0 how could I possibly score this bad on the MCAT". I pretty much told him that dude did you really deserve a 4.0 and the true colors really do come out on the MCAT. So, OP I know it's annoying but it's really none of your business. You should put maximal effort into your studies and it will pay off in the long run.

I've seen this happen so much. A 4.0 means nothing without the knowledge or ability to prove that knowledge on a standardized exam.

 

[chiapet874]

It's using the resources you got to your advantage and studying "smarter" not "harder"

 

[chiapet874]

I've seen this happen so much. A 4.0 means nothing without the knowledge or ability to prove that knowledge on a standardized exam.

When did the performance on a standardized test become a true measure of one's intelligence? Standardized exams don't "prove" knowledge- it just proves you know how to prepare.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I've seen this happen so much. A 4.0 means nothing without the knowledge or ability to prove that knowledge on a standardized exam.

By the time you'll actually need to take the MCAT you'll probably have forgotten most of the stuff you learned in your classes. It's up to you to spend a great amount of time reviewing if you want a good score.

@OP, make some friends or join a bio/chem frat.

 

[gmcguitar4]

I used old exams for biochem and pchem and it just helped me understand the material better. I did put a lot of effort in addition to the tests though. The tests were floating around and anyone could have gotten them. Those that didn't have them usually complained to the teachers who usually said..get over it, try socializing, stop bothering me.

 

[gmcguitar4]

When did the performance on a standardized test become a true measure of one's intelligence? Standardized exams don't "prove" knowledge- it just proves you know how to prepare.

The test is designed to test your critical thinking ability and potential as a physician. Like LSAT is to a lawyer, etc. It is not a true measure of your overall intelligence. I know people who have prepared for the MCAT for over a year and used reasonable study methods. He couldn't get above a 27.

 

[Morsetlis]

In undergrad, no, I never needed old exams.

In med school, the professors sequester all real exam questions, but they provide approximately 1:1 practice questions : exam questions, and then the upperclassmen compiled everything ever written ever into a giant multi-Gigabyte file and disseminate those.

The professors know and they don't care because the average stay roughly the same.

It's very easy to make up new questions

Your professors are just lazy.

 

[Barcu]

Old exams are great because they show you HOW the material will be tested, which is extremely valuable.

However, I never had access to old exams that the professor didn't provide (pretty much all of my science classes did provide them).

It is certainly an unfair advantage if some people have access to old exams and other people don't. However, if there is no official policy in place (check your school), then it's not technically cheating. However, I have a hard time believing it's not cheating. There's probably just weak enforcement of the policy.

Either find out if it is cheating or not. If it is, stay far away. If not, find some way to get your hands on those tests. That's just how it works.

 

[Morsetlis]

Old exams are great because they show you HOW the material will be tested, which is extremely valuable.

However, I never had access to old exams that the professor didn't provide (pretty much all of my science classes did provide them).

It is certainly an unfair advantage if some people have access to old exams and other people don't. However, if there is no official policy in place (check your school), then it's not technically cheating. However, I have a hard time believing it's not cheating. There's probably just weak enforcement of the policy.

Either find out if it is cheating or not. If it is, stay far away. If not, find some way to get your hands on those tests. That's just how it works.

And that, my friend, is called networking.

 

[bookfreak89]

In my gen chem and calc classes, the professors actually posts old exams, several in fact, on the class' website.

+1 It was strange if professors DIDN'T post old exams.

 

[bunnity]

Old tests may or may not be cheating.
At my vet school, we have test boxes that are passed down from year to year with all the old tests. They are totally allowed. However, if there is a class that does not return tests (or just returns the answer sheets) then it would be cheating to somehow have and use those old tests.
They are not going to replace good studying but they will help you focus on what is important and help you test how well you are learning. There are people that use them heavily but I spend about 1-2 hours on old tests per weekend and more like 12-20 hours on actual studying.
The test I just took today had maybe 2 questions repeated from last year's out of 50 so like it said, it won't replace actually knowing the material.

 

[flodhi1]

When did the performance on a standardized test become a true measure of one's intelligence? Standardized exams don't "prove" knowledge- it just proves you know how to prepare.

Are you serious? there are numerous people out there that spend years studying, retaking numerous times and still can't go beyond mid 20s. The MCAT is truly a standardized exam that tests your ability to absorb mass information but most importantly utilize it critically. Have you even taken the MCAT yet?

 

[chiapet874]

Are you serious? there are numerous people out there that spend years studying, retaking numerous times and still can't go beyond mid 20s. The MCAT is truly a standardized exam that tests your ability to absorb mass information but most importantly utilize it critically. Have you even taken the MCAT yet?

And there are numerous people out there who are very "smart" in the traditional sense of knowing a lot and can apply it, but simply can't perform well on standardized tests- whats your point?

In fact, I bet the amount of people you claim "study for years" and "retake numerous times" is in the huge minority of people.

As for taking the MCAT- I could throw my score out arbitrarily, but with no way to prove it, what difference does it make.

 

[mohad]

GPA and the MCAT don't prove intelligence whatsoever. There is a correlation, but that doesn't mean a person with a 4.0 and a 22 mcat score sucks because he can't score well. Intelligence is a multifaceted concept and it would be foolish to define it with mere numbers.

 

[flodhi1]

GPA and the MCAT don't prove intelligence whatsoever. There is a correlation, but that doesn't mean a person with a 4.0 and a 22 mcat score sucks because he can't score well. Intelligence is a multifaceted concept and it would be foolish to define it with mere numbers.

In my honest opinion you can't have someone that's extremely dumb roll up and score in the mid 30s on the MCAT. Yeah it might happen 1 out of a 100,000 but it's not common. GPA in my opinion doesn't really mean much at all. So, I would say IN MY OPINION the MCAT does have SOME correlation with your intelligence.

 

[Barcu]

GPA and the MCAT don't prove intelligence whatsoever. There is a correlation, but that doesn't mean a person with a 4.0 and a 22 mcat score sucks because he can't score well. Intelligence is a multifaceted concept and it would be foolish to define it with mere numbers.

Not this BS again.

Look, it doesn't matter how smart you are or if you're "intelligent." The gpa/MCAT is a good predictor of success as a doctor (note how I said good, not a perfect indicator so please spare me the personal anecdotes). Whether you got a good gpa/MCAT because you're smart or because you worked hard, it really doesn't matter. All that matters is you did well.

How are admissions supposed to work if we have to try and decipher this "multi-faceted" intelligence?

We can argue about this as much as we want, but the fact is gpa/MCAT are the major factors, and they are the major factors for a reason.

 

[autotroph]

Because it's up to the instructor to change the test. No it's not cheating.

Not cheating strictly speaking, but if it's an opportunity that is not available equally to students, then it is at least dishonest.

 

[Miss Alyssa]

Hmmm at my undergrad old tests were collected and disseminated by student groups. Either they collected them from previous students or the professor would give it to them. Then the math society, psychology student group etc would make them available or sell them in packets. Yet the professors were still able to maintain their class averages ~65%.

(There were also exams that were "closed", where we couldn't take the sheets out of the rooms and the profs didn't share them. )

 

[45408]

Not cheating strictly speaking, but if it's an opportunity that is not available equally to students, then it is at least dishonest.

Yeah, right. It's real life. You'll meet many people with more advantages than you in life, and it's time to get used to it, right now.

If it's not forbidden (or even implied that it would be forbidden), then it's not dishonest. Unless professors go to some lengths to keep exams from students (like the answer keys to many of our med school exams were posted behind locked glass cabinets), then they must assume that people will share them. Or if you're at one of those schools with a really strict honor code, and they say you can't do it.

 

[centrigeugle]

When did the performance on a standardized test become a true measure of one's intelligence? Standardized exams don't "prove" knowledge- it just proves you know how to prepare.

You do know that the entire point of standardized tests in the first place was to measure intelligence, right?

It's supposed to eliminate variables. You know. Standardize and all that. Clearly there are confounding factors now with test prep and the like, but I would put money on IQ and standardized test scores correlating quite well.

Also, most "academic integrity" statements that you sign on the first day of class have some kind of "no old stuff" clause, but from my extensive undergraduate experience it is enforced exactly 0% of the time.

 

[Mcatz1188]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

Grow a pair and ask the kid who has the old tests to make a copy for you. Quit whining.

 

[CuttingCorneas]

Not cheating strictly speaking, but if it's an opportunity that is not available equally to students, then it is at least dishonest.

Exactly. I know professors who post their exams, with similar "styles" of questions (e.g. calc exams with different numbers, etc). I also know professors who intentionally don't post their old tests, because they recycle the questions every few years or so. I think the latter gives an unfair advantage to students with access to the old exams (we're talking 4 or 5 semesters worth of old material), because up to 75% of the old material can be used on the new exam. If not everyone has access to such material, how is that not unfair?

 

[chiapet874]

You do know that the entire point of standardized tests in the first place was to measure intelligence, right?

It's supposed to eliminate variables. You know. Standardize and all that. Clearly there are confounding factors now with test prep and the like, but I would put money on IQ and standardized test scores correlating quite well.

Also, most "academic integrity" statements that you sign on the first day of class have some kind of "no old stuff" clause, but from my extensive undergraduate experience it is enforced exactly 0% of the time.

Standardized tests were designed to eliminated variables between different grading systems, NOT to "measure intelligence". I have no idea where you got that idea.

 

[BHaus9]

Standardized tests were designed to eliminated variables between different grading systems, NOT to "measure intelligence". I have no idea where you got that idea.

So as obfuscating variables are shed away, what is it exactly it that they are interested in measuring (or approximating)..?

 

[pkwraith]

My fraternity had a pretty great test file (I think pretty much all fraternities/sororties). Super convenient to be able to pull up a dozen old tests/quizzes/last reports from the last decade for every single class. Helpful for question bank exams like biology, not as helpful for organic synthesis and crazy multi-step synthesis. Still good practice.

 

[chiapet874]

So as obfuscating variables are shed away, what is it exactly it that they are interested in measuring (or approximating)..?

Standardized tests aren't measuring anything. They simply serve as a equalizer. They take a set of knowledge that they deem should be known be everyone and test to see how well you studied that general information. How is that "measuring intelligence"? Is the SATs a good indicator of intelligence? No, of course not. If it measures anything, its purely how well you prepared and studied a set of knowledge that you knew (and everyone else for that matter knows) would be on the test.

 

[mohad]

Gosh, I would like to rant about my opinions, but I probably shouldn't to save myself from the flaming. Personally, I just think that the MCAT and a person's GPA are more of a "how hard you can work" rather than a "how intelligent are you" sort of thing.

 

[Barcu]

Gosh, I would like to rant about my opinions, but I probably shouldn't to save myself from the flaming. Personally, I just think that the MCAT and a person's GPA are more of a "how hard you can work" rather than a "how intelligent are you" sort of thing.

You're welcome to have that opinion, and I don't necessarily disagree.

But does that matter? If the GPA and MCAT are good predictors of success in med school (again, not a perfect measurement but a good one), then should it matter if a person works really hard or if they are intelligent? Because how else are we supposed to determine intelligence? Would a more intelligent person be a better doctor than a hard worker? That's debateable.

People seem to always gripe about the admissions process and the GPA and MCAT. But is there a better system out there?

 

[BHaus9]

Standardized tests aren't measuring anything. They simply serve as a equalizer. They take a set of knowledge that they deem should be known be everyone and test to see how well you studied that general information. How is that "measuring intelligence"? Is the SATs a good indicator of intelligence? No, of course not. If it measures anything, its purely how well you prepared and studied a set of knowledge that you knew (and everyone else for that matter knows) would be on the test.

Your first sentence makes absolutely no sense in light of the rest of your post. If standardized tests "don't measure anything," what is their point? Doesn't the attempt to equalize some variables imply an interest in getting a clearer view of some other variable?

Whatever the case, I think one's ability to acquire, retain, and (most importantly) APPLY information is in fact an important facet of intelligence... and one I think med schools would be highly interested in assessing as best they can. If not perfect, the MCAT, and in particular the SAT (which is much less content-heavy), are GOOD INDICATORS. Intelligence is almost impossible to define, to say nothing of measuring, but we do the best we can, and I highly suspect there's a correlation between MCAT performance and IQ for persons with a background in science.

There are *always* exceptions, but I refuse to believe that laziness is the only possible cause for a poor score.

 

[flodhi1]

Standardized tests aren't measuring anything. They simply serve as a equalizer. They take a set of knowledge that they deem should be known be everyone and test to see how well you studied that general information. How is that "measuring intelligence"? Is the SATs a good indicator of intelligence? No, of course not. If it measures anything, its purely how well you prepared and studied a set of knowledge that you knew (and everyone else for that matter knows) would be on the test.

lol@ Standardized tests aren't measuring anything. Just stop already.

 

[chiapet874]

lol@ Standardized tests aren't measuring anything. Just stop already.

I'm still waiting for support on your claims.

 

[trypanosomiasis]

 

[flodhi1]

In my honest opinion you can't have someone that's extremely dumb roll up and score in the mid 30s on the MCAT. Yeah it might happen 1 out of a 100,000 but it's not common. GPA in my opinion doesn't really mean much at all. So, I would say IN MY OPINION the MCAT does have SOME correlation with your intelligence.

I'm still waiting for support on your claims.

My claim is that if someone scored very well on the MCAT mid 30-40s I'm pretty damn sure that guy is NOT lacking in intelligence. I also claimed that I know people that aren't really smart but cheat through college and bomb the MCAT. As you can obviously tell lack of intelligence or lack of hard work MAY lead to a poor performance on a standardized exam such as the MCAT. I refuse to believe that lack of hard work is the only reason why people don't do well on the MCAT. I know numerous people that have taken the MCAT several times, worked hard and supposedly held their nerves just to find out they have to retake again. I'm no one to judge but what do you think that tells you about those individuals?

 

[chiapet874]

My claim is that if someone scored very well on the MCAT mid 30-40s I'm pretty damn sure that guy is NOT lacking in intelligence. I also claimed that I know people that aren't really smart but cheat through college and bomb the MCAT. As you can obviously tell lack of intelligence or lack of hard work MAY lead to a poor performance on a standardized exam such as the MCAT. I refuse to believe that lack of hard work is the only reason why people don't do well on the MCAT. I know numerous people that have taken the MCAT several times, worked hard and supposedly held their nerves just to find out they have to retake again. I'm no one to judge but what do you think that tells you about those individuals?

I am in complete agreement with this; the only thing I was trying to get across before was: Standardized testing's primary purpose isn't to measure intelligence. One can correlated whatever they want after the fact.

 

[Goblue89]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

I'm sorry to here that and I can relate to your pain and anguish. I once had a cell bio exam where 90% of the exam was based on the exam from the previous year. I found out after the fact that all you had to was google the class and the old exam came up on coursehero or one of those sites.

Social networking is never fair and its just something you have to learn to put up with (e.g. people will get into certain med schools because they are related to/know members of admissions committees). Just try not to let it hinder your own success, it isn't an excuse for not doing well. In the end, everyone will reach a point where they have to do things on their own (e.g. MCAT). From a personal standpoint, it was better in the long run to learn how to do this early on (even though it surely blows now).

 

[munchymanRX]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

My professors used to hand out old tests to help students. My current medical school profs do as well. It's not cheating. If it were, doing problems from a textbook could also be considered cheating.

 

[Amrazzz]

This is so frustrating!!! People taking classes like chemistry (both gen. and orgo) and even some people in intro biologies have the old tests and ace them. This kid I know is going to make an A in organic with very little effort The teachers change the tests but only slightly, it's such a huge advantage!! I guess there's nothing I can do and I should just worry about me but it's still extremely frustrating!! Has anybody else come across this type of thing in undergrad??

Try asking them how they will manage in Med School

 

[Neurosis]

At my school this is pretty much non-existent. Our teachers either don't distribute old tests, or alters them so much that having old tests do little to nothing for you.

 

[ppfizenm]

At my school this is pretty much non-existent. Our teachers either don't distribute old tests, or alters them so much that having old tests do little to nothing for you.

It was non-existent at my school as well but only because the professors all made new exams every year. They also used to post old tests in moodle for us to use as practices.

 

[YouNeverKnow22]

I love old tests