How come Princeton doesn't have a med school?

[LAman10]

Just wondering. all the other Ivies have one. Why doesn't Princeton jump the bandwagon? You'd think they would've considered the possibility by now... I mean, NJ is a pretty populous state...

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[c5212]

Don't you watch House? Princeton Plainsboro Teaching Hospital

Honestly I couldn't tell you why; maybe because there is the University Medical Center at Princeton which is, as the name says, right in Princeton, NJ (although it is affiliated with the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, not Princeton Univ.)

 

[ButImLETired]

Just wondering. all the other Ivies have one. Why doesn't Princeton jump the bandwagon? You'd think they would've considered the possibility by now... I mean, NJ is a pretty populous state...

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

 

[randombetch]

Just wondering. all the other Ivies have one. Why doesn't Princeton jump the bandwagon? You'd think they would've considered the possibility by now... I mean, NJ is a pretty populous state...

At one point, they tried to make a law school, but were like "eh f*** it."

Princeton only cares about undergrad.

 

[BlueElmo]

I've always wondered why too. They should make one now, it's not too late.

 

[LAman10]

Don't you watch House? Princeton Plainsboro Teaching Hospital

Honestly I couldn't tell you why; maybe because there is the University Medical Center at Princeton which is, as the name says, right in Princeton, NJ (although it is affiliated with the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, not Princeton Univ.)

Yeah, I actually got the idea for this thread after watching a House episode haha... I was like, "are they in Princeton, NJ??? is this a fictional world in which Princeton has a med school? Why doesn't Princeton have a med school in real life?"

Manhattan has like 7 med schools... I think Princeton, NJ could do with 2, right?

 

[brooklynblunder]

where would they be located? Princeton? AC?

UMDNJ has the state down pretty good, we do well in the state with care. education in NJ is top notch.

If that's not enough there's around 25 hospitals in Philly area and around 10 in manhattan or so

 

[LAman10]

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

At one point, they tried to make a law school, but were like "eh f*** it."

Princeton only cares about undergrad.

this is interesting because it seems like most of a school's prestige comes from the grad programs (those are the programs that actually get evaluated and "ranked" by USNWR and such....)

I dunno, I'm thinking it might be because the acronym for Princeton Medical school would be PMS. I wouldn't wanna tell people I went to PMS. I believe this is along the same lines as why MIT doesn't have a med school. The acronym would be MMS and people would get it confused with Mayo. ok I think I've solved this mystery

 

[FloatOn]

They're too cool to add another school.

 

[randombetch]

this is interesting because it seems like most of a school's prestige comes from the grad programs (those are the programs that actually get evaluated and "ranked" by USNWR and such....)

I dunno, I'm thinking it might be because the acronym for Princeton Medical school would be PMS. I wouldn't wanna tell people I went to PMS. I believe this is along the same lines as why MIT doesn't have a med school. The acronym would be MMS and people would get it confused with Mayo. ok I think I've solved this mystery

Interesting theory.

Princeton has many top graduate programs, just not any professional schools. I agree, much of a university's prestige comes from these professional schools. I guess this is why Princeton is considered slightly less prestigious than Yale and Harvard despite having a waaay better undergraduate program (I'm biased).

 

[NotSur]

.

 

[randombetch]

huh? since when?

Yeah I never really noticed until I became a student at P-ton, but we're definitely not as prestigious internationally... Princeton's also considered slightly less difficult to get into.

 

[sanityonleave]

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

FYI, med schools haemorrhage money (like the pun?) -- they're almost never profitable for their institutions.

As far as Princeton not having a med school, I think the previous poster who noted that they're maintaining a focus on undergrad is probably spot-on. As far as prestige -- well, Princeton doesn't really have very many prestige issues, either =P.

-sol

 

[ButImLETired]

FYI, med schools haemorrhage money (like the pun?) -- they're almost never profitable for their institutions.

As far as Princeton not having a med school, I think the previous poster who noted that they're maintaining a focus on undergrad is probably spot-on. As far as prestige -- well, Princeton doesn't really have very many prestige issues, either =P.

-sol

This isn't necessarily true.
Med schools are an extremely expensive endeavor, but it totally depends on the partnership with the hospital. Hospitals can definitely be great money-makers if you have a bunch of faculty that get tons of grants and if a lot of those grants go into the university's funding. I worked at a big university's medical center for a while, and whenever we got a private grant (say, from a pharmaceutical), they had to pay about 15-20% more for us because that 15% was going into overhead for the university. Multiply that by the zillion faculty members, and you can imagine how much money the university was making from the hospital. Harvard works that way too- practically everyone who works in a hospital in Boston (except for the BU and Tufts hospitals, of course) is technically "Harvard faculty", which means that they get to use the name while pouring overhead into Harvard. A med school alone (like say NYMC) can't pull off the kind of partnership Harvard or tons of other med schools have, but when the university either owns the hospital outright or has a very strong partnership with a hospital, it can be a huge moneymaker.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

ah yes. dean's tax. harvard's is ridiculous, 40% i've been told by a grad student.

 

[justintime55]

Don't you watch House? Princeton Plainsboro Teaching Hospital

Honestly I couldn't tell you why; maybe because there is the University Medical Center at Princeton which is, as the name says, right in Princeton, NJ (although it is affiliated with the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, not Princeton Univ.)

UMCP is moving to Plainsboro in a couple of years (construction's already begun on Rt. 1)...

So soon, they'll be called University Medical Center of Princeton at Painsboro...it's sort of funny actually

 

[gplex86]

This isn't necessarily true.
Med schools are an extremely expensive endeavor, but it totally depends on the partnership with the hospital. Hospitals can definitely be great money-makers if you have a bunch of faculty that get tons of grants and if a lot of those grants go into the university's funding. I worked at a big university's medical center for a while, and whenever we got a private grant (say, from a pharmaceutical), they had to pay about 15-20% more for us because that 15% was going into overhead for the university. Multiply that by the zillion faculty members, and you can imagine how much money the university was making from the hospital. Harvard works that way too- practically everyone who works in a hospital in Boston (except for the BU and Tufts hospitals, of course) is technically "Harvard faculty", which means that they get to use the name while pouring overhead into Harvard. A med school alone (like say NYMC) can't pull off the kind of partnership Harvard or tons of other med schools have, but when the university either owns the hospital outright or has a very strong partnership with a hospital, it can be a huge moneymaker.

Hospitals are bleeding money right now. They're closing down and merging all over the place. Where have you been? You're describing anecdotes that don't represent the trend. Of course Harvard doesn't have money problems - they have billions to start with!

Facilities are expensive, faculty are expensive, and hospitals are losing money. Med schools generally would not survive separate without investments from the university (a glorified pyramid scheme with undergrads at the bottom), funding from taxpayers (public schools) and the federal government (NIH funding, residency funding, etc).

This needs to be clarified: NYMC's professors come from the faculty of its university hospitals (Westchester Medical Center, St. Vincent's Manhattan, Metropolitan Hospital, and Danbury Hospital). It's the same arrangement you described for Harvard. It's a boost for the affiliated hospital because physicians want academic placements and patients want an academic hospital. Does it balance the budget? Not a chance.

You're describing an extreme minority. Not a reality. Without university/state support, most med schools wouldn't exist. It's understandable why Princeton wouldn't want to make that investment.

 

[oze]

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

Dartmouth is the same way, they have a med school....

 

[randombetch]

Dartmouth is the same way, they have a med school....

Well, Princeton focuses more on undergrad than Dartmouth then I guess.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Dartmouth is the same way, they have a med school....

dartmouth also serves a serious need given that the state has that one referral center.

 

[DRJJ1]

just wondering. All the other ivies have one. Why doesn't princeton jump the bandwagon? You'd think they would've considered the possibility by now... I mean, nj is a pretty populous state...

funny i just came across this post i just got back from princeton now had some business there
anyways all the little kiddies were out eating good brickoven pizza place ribs and sandwich shop all next to ea other
i grabbed a nice boven pizza and killed it

a med school would fit in nice there in that preppy town

 

[DRJJ1]

dartmouth also serves a serious need given that the state has that one referral center.

i feel that umdnj purposely keeps out other medical
schools they are in bed with the state

finally touro is supposed to open in nj but the number of medical schools compared with the state of nj population does not make sense not to have at least 5 medical schools,,,bringing in students is good for nj bankrupt economy too

i say its all politics and money here

 

[PinkIvy08]

i feel that umdnj purposely keeps out other medical
schools they are in bed with the state

finally touro is supposed to open in nj but the number of medical schools compared with the state of nj population does not make sense not to have at least 5 medical schools,,,bringing in students is good for nj bankrupt economy too

i say its all politics and money here

AMEN! This is the most truthful post on this thread. I love my state and all, BUT for the most densely populated state in the country the whole 3 med schools all wrapped up under the UMDNJ umbrella doesn't make sense.

Oh, I vaguely remember hearing of some new med school to open in Camden - Cooper Medical School of Rowan Univ. When's it actually set to open? I don't know. But, we're slowly making progress. Slowly.

 

[bannie22]

Interesting theory.

Princeton has many top graduate programs, just not any professional schools. I agree, much of a university's prestige comes from these professional schools. I guess this is why Princeton is considered slightly less prestigious than Yale and Harvard despite having a waaay better undergraduate program (I'm biased).

you are right.

 

[gplex86]

AMEN! This is the most truthful post on this thread. I love my state and all, BUT for the most densely populated state in the country the whole 3 med schools all wrapped up under the UMDNJ umbrella doesn't make sense.

Oh, I vaguely remember hearing of some new med school to open in Camden - Cooper Medical School of Rowan Univ. When's it actually set to open? I don't know. But, we're slowly making progress. Slowly.

Cooper (another public school) is at step 1 of the accreditation process. It will be at least a year before they can start taking applications.

New Jersey will eventually get its first private med school, in Hackensack. It will either be Touro University or a clinical campus of New York Medical College. Competition is on the way.

 

[ButImLETired]

Hospitals are bleeding money right now. They're closing down and merging all over the place. Where have you been? You're describing anecdotes that don't represent the trend. Of course Harvard doesn't have money problems - they have billions to start with!

Facilities are expensive, faculty are expensive, and hospitals are losing money. Med schools generally would not survive separate without investments from the university (a glorified pyramid scheme with undergrads at the bottom), funding from taxpayers (public schools) and the federal government (NIH funding, residency funding, etc).

This needs to be clarified: NYMC's professors come from the faculty of its university hospitals (Westchester Medical Center, St. Vincent's Manhattan, Metropolitan Hospital, and Danbury Hospital). It's the same arrangement you described for Harvard. It's a boost for the affiliated hospital because physicians want academic placements and patients want an academic hospital. Does it balance the budget? Not a chance.

You're describing an extreme minority. Not a reality. Without university/state support, most med schools wouldn't exist. It's understandable why Princeton wouldn't want to make that investment.

Well, all I can tell you is what I heard when I was working at Stanford from the finance people, and at my undergrad (which I'm not going to mention, but it doesnt have the money of Harvard or Stanford, not even close). In fact, my undergrad considered closing down the med school because they weren't fully affiliated with the hospital so the money wasn't trickling down enough, but thanks to a big donation from a donor they bought a greater share of the hospital and now the money is actually helping the university instead of sucking it dry. So maybe I'm describing an "extreme minority", but I'm describing what I'm familiar with.

 

[gplex86]

Well, all I can tell you is what I heard when I was working at Stanford from the finance people, and at my undergrad (which I'm not going to mention, but it doesnt have the money of Harvard or Stanford, not even close). In fact, my undergrad considered closing down the med school because they weren't fully affiliated with the hospital so the money wasn't trickling down enough, but thanks to a big donation from a donor they bought a greater share of the hospital and now the money is actually helping the university instead of sucking it dry. So maybe I'm describing an "extreme minority", but I'm describing what I'm familiar with.

I'm glad things worked out for your school. My understanding is that hospitals in general are doing poorly because of cuts in reimbursements and uncompensated care. Depends a lot on the location, though. But you see my point - it sounds like your med school was a real financial drag until a donor stepped in. Hopefully that hospital stays profitable. Our major affiliate was flying high (financially) until recently. Now they're cutting beds, jobs, and nursing facilities.

 

[Jolt21]

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

at Dartmouth, we consider us the most undergrad-friendly ...hence why we wont give up the "College" name for "University"


but i never thought about why they dont have one. weird.

 

[bookfreak89]

Princeton prides itself on being the most undergrad-friendly of the ivies, and it has very, very few graduate programs. They want to keep having a collegiate feel so all the resources are being poured back into the undergrads. Also, they're not exactly suffering for money, so they don't need to get affiliated with hospitals and such for more research grants.

This.

Pton has many highly ranked grad programs. Great! However, undergrads/grads have VERY different experiences from their time at Pton. Undergrad = generally MUCH happier than grad students. Much happier.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Princeton does have a medical school. However, their admissions process is a tad different. For one, the school is hidden from mortal kind, so the first task is to unlock the mystery of the seven hidden riddles of the Nassau Hall bell. This unveils a map to the school, which is a long and treacherous journey full of many treacherous and long things. When you arrive, you will be confronted by a man with no arms or legs and a single golden incisor. He will give you a name tag and let you pass into the halls of the medical school. There you will be confronted with a three headed dragon that speaks in spanish, french, and german. Each head will ask you a question in its respective language, and only once you have successfully answered each will you move on into the inner sanctum of Princeton Medical School. Here you will be asked to meditate on the meaning of the color orange for a period of one week, during which time you will fast and stand with one foot on the top of a statue of a five legged tiger. Having truly learned what the color orange means, you must then choose the leg that is false and present it to the dean of admissions. He will give you another map and an invitation to join the other successful applicants at a tournament to the death at the most remote region of the world. Only one applicant survives the battle, becoming the only member of the Class of 2014. And so it has gone for eons. At this point I withdrew from Princeton because I had already gotten some other great acceptances and it didn't seem worth spending the cash on chartering a ship full of hardy and fearless sailors.

So yeah, their financial aid sucks pretty royally, and their patient population consists mostly of Sherpas. I'd only apply to Princeton if you really are interested in rural medicine and have a blackbelt.

 

[LAman10]

Princeton does have a medical school. However, their admissions process is a tad different. For one, the school is hidden from mortal kind, so the first task is to unlock the mystery of the seven hidden riddles of the Nassau Hall bell. This unveils a map to the school, which is a long and treacherous journey full of many treacherous and long things. When you arrive, you will be confronted by a man with no arms or legs and a single golden incisor. He will give you a name tag and let you pass into the halls of the medical school. There you will be confronted with a three headed dragon that speaks in spanish, french, and german. Each head will ask you a question in its respective language, and only once you have successfully answered each will you move on into the inner sanctum of Princeton Medical School. Here you will be asked to meditate on the meaning of the color orange for a period of one week, during which time you will fast and stand with one foot on the top of a statue of a five legged tiger. Having truly learned what the color orange means, you must then choose the leg that is false and present it to the dean of admissions. He will give you another map and an invitation to join the other successful applicants at a tournament to the death at the most remote region of the world. Only one applicant survives the battle, becoming the only member of the Class of 2014. And so it has gone for eons. At this point I withdrew from Princeton because I had already gotten some other great acceptances and it didn't seem worth spending the cash on chartering a ship full of hardy and fearless sailors.

So yeah, their financial aid sucks pretty royally, and their patient population consists mostly of Sherpas. I'd only apply to Princeton if you really are interested in rural medicine and have a blackbelt.

oh ok. do they use AMCAS? or how should I submit my primary?

 

[c5212]

Princeton does have a medical school. However, their admissions process is a tad different. For one, the school is hidden from mortal kind, so the first task is to unlock the mystery of the seven hidden riddles of the Nassau Hall bell. This unveils a map to the school, which is a long and treacherous journey full of many treacherous and long things. When you arrive, you will be confronted by a man with no arms or legs and a single golden incisor. He will give you a name tag and let you pass into the halls of the medical school. There you will be confronted with a three headed dragon that speaks in spanish, french, and german. Each head will ask you a question in its respective language, and only once you have successfully answered each will you move on into the inner sanctum of Princeton Medical School. Here you will be asked to meditate on the meaning of the color orange for a period of one week, during which time you will fast and stand with one foot on the top of a statue of a five legged tiger. Having truly learned what the color orange means, you must then choose the leg that is false and present it to the dean of admissions. He will give you another map and an invitation to join the other successful applicants at a tournament to the death at the most remote region of the world. Only one applicant survives the battle, becoming the only member of the Class of 2014. And so it has gone for eons. At this point I withdrew from Princeton because I had already gotten some other great acceptances and it didn't seem worth spending the cash on chartering a ship full of hardy and fearless sailors.

So yeah, their financial aid sucks pretty royally, and their patient population consists mostly of Sherpas. I'd only apply to Princeton if you really are interested in rural medicine and have a blackbelt.

I think I've heard of this place... It's right beside HOGWARTS School of Medicine right?

 

[Law2Doc]

...

Princeton has many top graduate programs, just not any professional schools....

It comes from the university underpinnings centuries ago. Back in the day, when places like nearby Penn were perceived as effectively becoming "vocational" schools focused on training students for jobs (due to the more pragmatic, Quaker, underpinnings), places like Princeton sought to instead preserve its identity as a place of higher learning, where you could train to be among the national educated elite, not to be trained merely a doctor, lawyer, banker, etc. So Princeton thumbed its nose at the notion of professional schools, instead focusing only on a very limited range of less career oriented graduate programs (esp things like poli sci). If anything, it made Princeton more, not less, prestigious than the more career focused Ivies such as Penn, Columbia, Cornell. Only Harvard and Yale managed to incorporate professional programs without taking a prestige hit. Princeton rounds out the "big three" as the most prestigious ivies.

 

[LizzyM]

What I've never figured out is why Cornell's med school is so far away from the rest of the University.

Also, as an aside, for admission to Princeton's med school the square root of your LizzyM score must equal exactly 9.

 

[oze]

Only Harvard and Yale managed to incorporate professional programs without taking a prestige hit. Princeton rounds out the "big three" as the most prestigious ivies.

I think that among the ivies, undergrads know that Princeton is the best undergrad place out there (with apologies to my alma mater) and the other two take hits to their prestige. Harvard kids know their undergrad sucks (well...comparatively).

 

[LAman10]

What I've never figured out is why Cornell's med school is so far away from the rest of the University.

Also, as an aside, for admission to Princeton's med school the square root of your LizzyM score must equal exactly 9.

LOL med school in Ithaca? Patient population: Cornell undergrads. hahahhah

 

[randombetch]

LOL med school in Ithaca? Patient population: Cornell undergrads. hahahhah

 

[JLC]

another factor I've always thought about was Princeton is coming into the Md school game too late.

First, if they do set up a md school, the ranking of that school would be pretty low for a while. That doesn't look good for Princeton which is extremely vicious on its rankings.

Second, there are already enough large academic centers (and NIH funding isn't increasing). If NIH funding was on the rise etc then there could be a possibility of Princeton being succesful in setting up a highly ranked md school.

 

[randombetch]

another factor I've always thought about was Princeton is coming into the Md school game too late.

First, if they do set up a md school, the ranking of that school would be pretty low for a while. That doesn't look good for Princeton which is extremely vicious on its rankings.

Second, there are already enough large academic centers (and NIH funding isn't increasing). If NIH funding was on the rise etc then there could be a possibility of Princeton being succesful in setting up a highly ranked md school.

I think if Princeton made a medical school, it'd reach top 15 within the first four years. As long as Princeton has enough money to hire faculty who do tons of research, the rankings will shoot up pretty quickly.

 

[z31]

I think if Princeton made a medical school, it'd reach top 15 within the first four years. As long as Princeton has enough money to hire faculty who do tons of research, the rankings will shoot up pretty quickly.

Money is not really an issue for Princeton, even with the recession. I think they don't have a med school because their intention is to stay undergraduate-focused. This makes it a fantastic place to go for undergrad, since the resources that put it at the top of rankings are available to you as an undergrad. I think this is an important component of its niche.

 

[Law2Doc]

Money is not really an issue for Princeton, even with the recession. I think they don't have a med school because their intention is to stay undergraduate-focused....

Agreed. They have had many many opportunities to develop professional schools, being one of the oldest and most prestigious and among the fairly well funded of the ivies. They have constantly thumbed their nose at this prospect and have no interest in setting up a med school. See my prior post -- professional schools are not really consistent with this schools "mission". (So no, the issue has nothing to do with competitiveness or finances or the recession, but of desire. The school doesn't want to waste it's time with job oriented vocational training - something that was decided by the school about 200 years ago, back when only a handful of med schools existed. I would note however that Princeton itself isn't a big population center, so if they wanted to set up rotations at a teaching hospital, the students would have to commute more than most of the other ivies.)

 

[gplex86]

Agreed. They have had many many opportunities to develop professional schools, being one of the oldest and most prestigious and among the fairly well funded of the ivies. They have constantly thumbed their nose at this prospect and have no interest in setting up a med school. See my prior post -- professional schools are not really consistent with this schools "mission". (So no, the issue has nothing to do with competitiveness or finances or the recession, but of desire. The school doesn't want to waste it's time with job oriented vocational training - something that was decided by the school about 200 years ago, back when only a handful of med schools existed. I would note however that Princeton itself isn't a big population center, so if they wanted to set up rotations at a teaching hospital, the students would have to commute more than most of the other ivies.)

Or they just have a separate campus, like Cornell does.

 

[LizzyM]

Or they just have a separate campus, like Cornell does.

But Cornell is a long established medical school and its primary affiliated hospital is so old it received its charter from King George III.

 

[gplex86]

But Cornell is a long established medical school and its primary affiliated hospital is so old it received its charter from King George III.

That's a very good point. That Gplex character sure is an imbecile.

I think we pretty much figured it out on this thread - if Princeton really wanted a medical school, they'd have opened one.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

I think we pretty much figured it out on this thread - if Princeton really wanted a medical school, they'd have opened one.

Agreed.

 

[mediterranean]

Cooper (another public school) is at step 1 of the accreditation process. It will be at least a year before they can start taking applications.

New Jersey will eventually get its first private med school, in Hackensack. It will either be Touro University or a clinical campus of New York Medical College. Competition is on the way.

Yep. First class of Cooper is to be accepted for 2012. Touro, on the other hand, is still under discussion.