How do former AOA residency programs compare to other programs since the merger?

[RocuROMANium]

Since the merger, how do former AOA programs in the subspecialties compare to programs that have always been ACGME? Are they just as competent? Do they have similar research opportunities? For example, are DO neurosurgeons from former AOA programs trained any different than MD neurosurgeons from an already existing ACGME program?

Most former AOA programs still only have DO's and the same could be said for MD programs so I'm just seeing if anything has really changed since the merger.

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

I thought AOA was an award or something? Are these residencies for those students

 

[ontiquicuo]

I thought AOA was an award or something? Are these residencies for those students

In this case AOA is the American Osteopathic Association.

 

[AlteredScale]

Since the merger, how do former AOA programs in the subspecialties compare to programs that have always been ACGME? Are they just as competent? Do they have similar research opportunities? For example, are DO neurosurgeons from former AOA programs trained any different than MD neurosurgeons from an already existing ACGME program?

Most former AOA programs still only have DO's and the same could be said for MD programs so I'm just seeing if anything has really changed since the merger.

Previous AOA simply need the infrastructure of research to make it through ACGME accreditation initially, then the proof is in the pudding and if they don't produce or show that they have a way of producing research the ACGME will nix it.

Your questions is very broad as it depends on the the type of program (university, communiversity, community), the specialty (neurosurgery is more than likely to be affiliated with a strong university hospital in terms of MD training in comparison to DO which is likely to be a communiversity) and it also depends on the type of applicant ie if you are a DO that wants to do neurosurgery and wants to partake in strong research then you'll likely get that experience not at a previous AOA program that is out in the community and likely would get that exposure at a university hospital (thoughtcrimes you're SOL with that since neurosurgery is notoriously hard to match, and to match at a normally MD institution is even more difficult if not impossible).

 

[RocuROMANium]

Previous AOA simply need the infrastructure of research to make it through ACGME accreditation initially, then the proof is in the pudding and if they don't produce or show that they have a way of producing research the ACGME will nix it.

Your questions is very broad as it depends on the the type of program (university, communiversity, community), the specialty (neurosurgery is more than likely to be affiliated with a strong university hospital in terms of MD training in comparison to DO which is likely to be a communiversity) and it also depends on the type of applicant ie if you are a DO that wants to do neurosurgery and wants to partake in strong research then you'll likely get that experience not at a previous AOA program that is out in the community and likely would get that exposure at a university hospital (thoughtcrimes you're SOL with that since neurosurgery is notoriously hard to match, and to match at a normally MD institution is even more difficult if not impossible).

I figured that the main difference between an AOA program and an MD one would be research output but is there anything else that is different as far as clinical training goes? I guess what I’m asking is if you’re a DO that trains at a former AOA neurosurgery residency at say PCOM-PA are you job prospects as an attending as good as an MD with similar training? I would guess most DO residencies are at community hospitals so how would they compare to MD training at a community hospital?

 

[AlteredScale]

I figured that the main difference between an AOA program and an MD one would be research output but is there anything else that is different as far as clinical training goes? I guess what I’m asking is if you’re a DO that trains at a former AOA neurosurgery residency at say PCOM-PA are you job prospects as an attending as good as an MD with similar training? I would guess most DO residencies are at community hospitals so how would they compare to MD training at a community hospital?

Well yes, if you are at a largely MD neurosurgery residency program you are more likely to have a higher number of faculty and of which a higher number of even more specialized and training neurosurgeons in SB or functional while at an AOA program you may have a lot more faculty that are general neurosurgeons and therefore you will get a lot more bread and butter training.

It depends on what your looking for for a job? To be a neurosurgeon anywhere and practice in the community? Can train at an AOA or ACGME program. If you want to practice with an academic group at a strong university program, you will have a much stronger shot doing so training at an MD institution.

I am not sure what your last question really means, an MD and DO training at a community hospital will get the same training.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I can speak to general surgery. Reality is that there are only ~3-4 former AOA programs that are even on the same level as MD community programs. The volume and variety just isn't there. Even for the better DO programs it is a lot of bread and butter and much less of the complex Onc, Vascular, and advanced GI you see at even the MD community programs. Additionally, DO programs do a LOT more endoscopy in their surgery residencies than MD programs do. Fellowship opportunities at former DO programs are also more restricted. To put it in perspective the residency my DO school was affiliated with had less than 10 actual faculty. The regional academic MD program I am a resident at has the same number in a single department, with all surgical departments represented with multiple faculty in each specialty.

Academic job opportunities are limited coming from DO GS programs, and community jobs can vary quite a bit regarding how much of a problem it is. Large employers looking for a cog in the wheel don't really care where someone trained, but the private groups are often more selective. Even then it really comes down to case logs, what the group is looking for, and other factors (like are you from the area and are more likely to stay long term).

There are differences in the surgical subs as well, although they can be different than in GS. Most of the DO surgical sub programs rotate at a lot more hospitals than the MD programs do. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what the differences are in job prospects and training for DOs in the surgical subs because the decision to go to a DO school significantly impedes even the idea of matching a surgical sub at an MD program. Just be grateful to have matched and make the most of it.

Research opportunities really aren't comparable so its not even worth commenting on.

 

[RocuROMANium]

Well yes, if you are at a largely MD neurosurgery residency program you are more likely to have a higher number of faculty and of which a higher number of even more specialized and training neurosurgeons in SB or functional while at an AOA program you may have a lot more faculty that are general neurosurgeons and therefore you will get a lot more bread and butter training.

It depends on what your looking for for a job? To be a neurosurgeon anywhere and practice in the community? Can train at an AOA or ACGME program. If you want to practice with an academic group at a strong university program, you will have a much stronger shot doing so training at an MD institution.

I am not sure what your last question really means, an MD and DO training at a community hospital will get the same training.

Thank you, you answered my question.

I can speak to general surgery. Reality is that there are only ~3-4 former AOA programs that are even on the same level as MD community programs. The volume and variety just isn't there. Even for the better DO programs it is a lot of bread and butter and much less of the complex Onc, Vascular, and advanced GI you see at even the MD community programs. Additionally, DO programs do a LOT more endoscopy in their surgery residencies than MD programs do. Fellowship opportunities at former DO programs are also more restricted. To put it in perspective the residency my DO school was affiliated with had less than 10 actual faculty. The regional academic MD program I am a resident at has the same number in a single department, with all surgical departments represented with multiple faculty in each specialty.

Academic job opportunities are limited coming from DO GS programs, and community jobs can vary quite a bit regarding how much of a problem it is. Large employers looking for a cog in the wheel don't really care where someone trained, but the private groups are often more selective. Even then it really comes down to case logs, what the group is looking for, and other factors (like are you from the area and are more likely to stay long term).

There are differences in the surgical subs as well, although they can be different than in GS. Most of the DO surgical sub programs rotate at a lot more hospitals than the MD programs do. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what the differences are in job prospects and training for DOs in the surgical subs because the decision to go to a DO school significantly impedes even the idea of matching a surgical sub at an MD program. Just be grateful to have matched and make the most of it.

Research opportunities really aren't comparable so its not even worth commenting on.

Yea, I hear you. How did you match into an MD program being a DO? High boards scores? A ton of research? Connections?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Thank you, you answered my question.

Yea, I hear you. How did you match into an MD program being a DO? High boards scores? A ton of research? Connections?

I have an AMA in the DO forum with my app.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I can speak to general surgery. Reality is that there are only ~3-4 former AOA programs that are even on the same level as MD community programs. The volume and variety just isn't there. Even for the better DO programs it is a lot of bread and butter and much less of the complex Onc, Vascular, and advanced GI you see at even the MD community programs. Additionally, DO programs do a LOT more endoscopy in their surgery residencies than MD programs do. Fellowship opportunities at former DO programs are also more restricted. To put it in perspective the residency my DO school was affiliated with had less than 10 actual faculty. The regional academic MD program I am a resident at has the same number in a single department, with all surgical departments represented with multiple faculty in each specialty.

Academic job opportunities are limited coming from DO GS programs, and community jobs can vary quite a bit regarding how much of a problem it is. Large employers looking for a cog in the wheel don't really care where someone trained, but the private groups are often more selective. Even then it really comes down to case logs, what the group is looking for, and other factors (like are you from the area and are more likely to stay long term).

There are differences in the surgical subs as well, although they can be different than in GS. Most of the DO surgical sub programs rotate at a lot more hospitals than the MD programs do. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what the differences are in job prospects and training for DOs in the surgical subs because the decision to go to a DO school significantly impedes even the idea of matching a surgical sub at an MD program. Just be grateful to have matched and make the most of it.

Research opportunities really aren't comparable so its not even worth commenting on.

How are Caribbean prospects for matching acgme surgery programs compared to DO? Is it way "easier" as a DO compared to Carib MD?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

How are Caribbean prospects for matching acgme surgery programs compared to DO? Is it way "easier" as a DO compared to Carib MD?

Oh yes. Much easier to simply match as a DO, and honestly it’s also easier to match well as a DO in surgery than as an IMG. I personally know an IMG resident who had a ~270/270 and got 5 invites from almost 200 apps…. And then still had to do a prelim year and was ultimately taken by the place he did his prelim on his re-app.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Oh yes. Much easier to simply match as a DO, and honestly it’s also easier to match well as a DO in surgery than as an IMG. I personally know an IMG resident who had a ~270/270 and got 5 invites from almost 200 apps…. And then still had to do a prelim year and was ultimately taken by the place he did his prelim on his re-app.

Ahh ok so as a DO with a well rounded app your infinitely better for acgme programs and obviously former aoa programs.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Since the merger, how do former AOA programs in the subspecialties compare to programs that have always been ACGME? Are they just as competent? Do they have similar research opportunities? For example, are DO neurosurgeons from former AOA programs trained any different than MD neurosurgeons from an already existing ACGME program?

Most former AOA programs still only have DO's and the same could be said for MD programs so I'm just seeing if anything has really changed since the merger.

They shut down programs that were subpar. The majority of the programs that survived are comparable to any other community based MD program. There's a few like at MSU and OSU that are comparable to university MD