How do you handle 'the bully supervisor'?

[LivingOffLoans]

You know the type...

Crosses boundaries personally and professionally, power-abusing, tries to make your internship experience miserable in the name of 'professional growth', asks for your ideas/opinions just so they can put them down, acts jealous of you (yet seems to want your approval), and clearly does not respect you or their clients. (as a side thought, how do people like this even make it into the field?)

I don't know what the typical supervision experience is like, but I am sure I'm not alone on this one. I have had 4 clinical supervisors: 1 good, 1 excellent, 2 very nasty. It seems like they have all the social power (especially if popular in the office) and can rally others around them on their side pretty quick, disarming/preventing you from getting any ally's should you choose to later raise concern about the supervisory relationship. As another side thought, I've noticed that of the 2 nasty supervisors I had, they were both female and I was their only male intern (or only male in the department, period). I don't think it's purely a matter of sex, but I absolutely believe that (coupled with some other minority identifiers I have) has something to do with it. You can just feel it.

What do you all do in these situations? I have learned my lesson from not doing anything in the past, and this time I am documenting everything. I can't stand spending time keeping a journal of this stuff, but I don't know what else I could do to stop the behavior. Unfortunately, using immediacy (self-disclosure) does not work when your boss lacks empathy.

I'm all about working hard and experiencing the growing pains that come with development within the field, but I do not believe that hazing should be permitted under any circumstances. It's discouraging to see in this field, let alone experience.

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[Psychadelic2012]

I went through this last year. It was horrendous! Unfortunately, for me, the politics were such that my school barely got involved, except just to save face for themselves. I personally think this is a HUGE problem in our field! It is complicated and not easily solvable.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

This is a GOOD thread.

Have you tried to calmly yet sternly assert yourself to her? For example stopping her when she becomes verbally agressive and telling her that while you fully understand she is the supervisor, you will tolerate no such blatant disrespect.

Lastly, aren't you only there for a year? I would assume after completing graduate school you should have secured many people who can vouch for you down the road. Is this supervisor really a bridge worth caring about?

S

 

[bmedclinic]

I went through this 3 years ago.
I came out that experience, finally knowing what it was like to have a bad supervisor.
Push came to shove when I had to have a conversation with her about why it was inappropriate to read my email over my shoulder and respond to it. Wow. I wish I had a better answer for you. Quite frankly, I shut up and put up until the end, but in retrospect I probably should have gone to the DCT with my many, many concerns.

 

[Pragma]

Have you tried to calmly yet sternly assert yourself to her? For example stopping her when she becomes verbally agressive and telling her that while you fully understand she is the supervisor, you will tolerate no such blatant disrespect.

"Asserting yourself" doesn't work well in the female supervisor/male subordinate context these days. "Assertive" is easily interpreted as "aggressive" and the word "tolerate" implies a shift in the power dynamic. I bet you even wigflip would agree with me here, at least about the wording. Sternly/stopping/tolerating...

I agree with you about the "only a year" sentiment. Keep your mouth shut and eyes forward. There are plenty of crappy supervisors, male and female alike.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

Wow. I feel affirmed just seeing some of these responses so far.

I agree, it is a huge problem in our field. I am aware that it happens in non-clinical/patient-contact departments too (just look at the split between tenure and non-tenured faculty in academia), but this kind of status quo behavior should really be done away with as part of the growth process into a counseling position. Regarding trauma, Judith Herman once said something like: "eventually all questions are reduced to one - why? The answer is beyond human understanding". Ditto!

I have only been at this place for five shifts so far, and based on some truly nasty power imbalance relationships that I've been a part of before (both inside and outside of the field), I can already recognize my supervisor and I are in the early stages of this kind of dynamic. She has said some pretty offensive things to me. The one time I did assert myself and responded, she apologized disingenuously, and deflected personal responsibility from herself. She has a way of saying things, both in her words and tone, that make it so indirect that you really could not report an isolated incident to HR (or her boss) and have it taken seriously. That kind of thing.

Yes, I am only there for a year...but that is a year of being in captivity where a bully has the power to control my contact hours (which I'm uncertain I will even meet all of them anyway, based on her way of setting my schedule up), attempt to stymie my career, and let us not forget the serious emotional and psychological damage this kind of thing can cause in the long-term.

You guys, I really hope that when we are all in leadership positions one day, that we will be more relationally responsible. This whole bully culture has got to go.

 

[Pragma]

I have only been at this place for five shifts so far, and based on some truly nasty power imbalance relationships that I've been a part of before (both inside and outside of the field), I can already recognize my supervisor and I are in the early stages of this kind of dynamic. She has said some pretty offensive things to me. The one time I did assert myself and responded, she apologized disingenuously, and deflected personal responsibility from herself. She has a way of saying things, both in her words and tone, that make it so indirect that you really could not report an isolated incident to HR (or her boss) and have it taken seriously. That kind of thing.

I can relate here as I had a similar experience. Some suggestions: if you think it is going to cause you psychological damage, then it maybe will (your attitude matters). You could take it as a challenge and look for the positives in supervision.

All in all, I made it through a rough training experience full of subtle bullying and sometimes overt differential treatment (by gender). I was bitter at times but I just tried to recognize it for what it was and learn what I could. If anything, it prepares you for the real world in that you could very easily end up with a similar boss in just about any type of setting.

As to the systemic issues - some people suck at managing people administratively and some also suck at clinical supervision. How we got through so many years without formal competencies in these areas built into programs is beyond me. But at least for me, the great supervisors outnumbered the crappy ones by a large margin.

Tread carefully when it comes to sticking up for yourself. It will likely be context dependent and you may be better off in the big picture just rolling with the punches. When even assertive actions imply a personal attack, you as a trainee are likely going to be the one to suffer. I recommend killing with kindness. I think it reduces whatever satisfaction comes from bullying considerably.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

I get what you're saying Pragma, and I think each situation is different. I've had to learn some hard lessons about when and where to choose my battles, so your advice has merit to it. Additionally, in my situation, I can already sense the ways in which my supervisor is trying to set me up for failure (e.g. not meeting required contact hours, looking for loopholes/ways to change 'rules' as we go so I stumble). Based on what I know of this person so far, my gut is telling me if I stay here, there could be an attempt on her part to exile me from the field.

if you think it is going to cause you psychological damage, then it maybe will (your attitude matters). You could take it as a challenge and look for the positives in supervision.

No personal disrespect to you, Pragma, but this sort of well-intentioned advice sounds like the 'blame the victim' mentality. If you replace the word 'supervision' with 'rape', would you say the same thing? In essence, office bullying of this nature is a rape of the soul.

 

[Pragma]

Based on what I know of this person so far, my gut is telling me if I stay here, there could be an attempt on her part to exile me from the field.

I am saying that you sound pretty paranoid for being 5 shifts into an internship. heck, she could be just having a bad week. Even if you are right, I doubt you have enough tangible evidence at this point to be jumping to dramatic conclusions (like having your soul raped).

No personal disrespect to you, Pragma, but this sort of well-intentioned advice sounds like the 'blame the victim' mentality. If you replace the word 'supervision' with 'rape', would you say the same thing? In essence, office bullying of this nature is a rape of the soul.

See above. If you want to view your current predicament as "rape of the soul" then fine. I just think you possibly got into the wrong field if that is how you intend to view this relationship already.

Supervisors can be a-holes. It happens in training and it happens in the real world. If you are going to approach most of your bosses with the anticipation that you are going to be mistreated - I've got news for you. It won't go well. You aren't a victim of anything yet but you are taking on that role prior to any of these things coming to pass. People pick up on this kind of stuff. If you don't figure out how to handle it now, you may struggle in other settings when you are done with training.

I know how it feels to go from awesome supervision to terrible, possible Axis II/Spectrum behavior from supervisors (with intentional meanness). My advice is to protect yourself. Save the battle for when a) something actually happens and b) when you have less to lose. If you have previous supervisors or a DCT to vent to and get ideas about this, now may be a good time.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

this sort of well-intentioned advice sounds like the 'blame the victim' mentality. If you replace the word 'supervision' with 'rape', would you say the same thing? In essence, office bullying of this nature is a rape of the soul.

I definitely get what you're saying here and I both understand it and believe it is very true. First, I think all of us need to realize that we don't know what Living is really experiencing, so explicit advice is probably going to go nowhere. I certainly do think it's possible to know in 5 shifts that there are some serious red flags--that's what happens when you go through a bad experience, learn the signs, and then see it again. You're extra sensitive to it. Then, the classic 'honeymoon' phase comes around, people around you start trying to convince you that it's not that bad, and you stay in a bad situation.

My advice would be to listen to your gut, Living. If I ever found myself in a bullying supervision relationship again, I would either find a way out (fast!), or (if I couldn't get out) I would find a way to surround myself with support, set firm and professional boundaries, document specific things that occur, and use some self-validation and other cognitive techniques to help me to not become the victim. Also, if you're not in therapy, find some therapy. Find someone in the field who can mentor you through a difficult situation.

IMO, bad supervisory situations in educational settings are the absolute WORST. There is a power differential and political structure that encourages them, in many ways, and disempowers the student. I'll repeat - it is a huge problem. Find a way to not isolate yourself. It's just like abuse--they'll find a way to isolate you, abuse their power, and cycle through the honeymoon-tension buildup-explosion phases to knock you down. When you fight back, it will probably get worse. Just anticipate those things. Be smart and know that it's not about you. I really, truly feel for you!!

 

[sabaijae]

.

 

[sabaijae]

If you are going to approach most of your bosses with the anticipation that you are going to be mistreated - I've got news for you. It won't go well. You aren't a victim of anything yet but you are taking on that role prior to any of these things coming to pass. People pick up on this kind of stuff. If you don't figure out how to handle it now, you may struggle in other settings when you are done with training.

Excellent point. I think this has become the 'default' attitude for many in a culture of victimization ...

 

[Pragma]

First, I think all of us need to realize that we don't know what Living is really experiencing, so explicit advice is probably going to go nowhere. I certainly do think it's possible to know in 5 shifts that there are some serious red flags--that's what happens when you go through a bad experience, learn the signs, and then see it again.

Of course. I have no idea what Living is going through. but he came to an internet message board, and is going to get peoples' opinions.

Personally, I think it is a red flag when people start catastrophizing based on a small sample of events without cutting people the slack that they would ask be cut for themselves. I know from my internship supervisors that there is tons of administrative and extra stressors associated with transitioning classes. There are about 100 reasons why a supervisor might come off negatively during the first week of internship.

I am glad that Living is trying to think ahead, but I question extreme statements suggesting that his career might be sabotaged. And I say it from a position of caring. I had those same thoughts at times during my own (very similar sounding) negative supervisory relationship. I felt paranoid, worried, and upset given the lack of power I had in the relationship. But I also found that, when I reframed things and didn't act on my nervous impulses right away, the picture looked a little different. I could find some positives, and I found that she treated me differently in some ways. I still look back on the experience as negative and think she was a total piece of work, but I can find things that I liked about her. if anyone here thinks that you can label a bad supervisor in such a black and white fashion (totally incompetent, unethical, etc) and not find one reason why they got where they were (or maybe why they are the way they are now), you might not be thinking critically enough.

The other drum that gets beat around here is "you don't know what you don't know" and I think anyone in training ought to realize that there is something you can learn from every supervisor, even a crappy one.

There is a tendency for some folks in psychology to go through training experiences as if they know what's up and exactly how it should work. Those are the people that I have witnessed have major conflicts with their supervisors. I can't help but wonder to what extent that has to do with their own attitude. There really is a sense of entitlement that some people have that is very offputting. I am not saying Living is necessarily that way, but that is part of where I always have questions with complaints about supervision.

So call it "blaming the victim" if you want, but if you are training as a psychologist, you d*&^ed well be sure that you know how to look at yourself and what you bring to a supervisory relationship as a supervisee. It is fundamental to your training, and if you are the type that is always preoccupied with how you are being msitreated, you might not realize that you SUCK to supervise.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

My first supervisor was like this. Bonus: she was the DCT and hadn't seen a client in over 15 years. Without a doubt, she had some significant Axis II pathology. She was rarely overtly aggressive, but extremely manipulative and would tear down students' self-confidence. It was an on-going (sad) joke in the department that students left her office in tears on a regular basis.

One thing that I unfortunately didn't figure out until 1/2 through the year, was the importance of having good personal boundaries. In my case, the supervisor would try to delve into my personal relationships and mental health and make inappropriate suggestions about how I should handle my own life. I should have cut this one off at the pass and said things that indicated that I "would not go there" ever with her.

I also think that it can be helpful to have positive relationships with other professionals at your site. They will help with professional development. Additionally, if the worst case scenario happens and she tries to tear you down or take action against you, they will be able to vouch for your skill as a professional.

At my internship I worked at two CMH settings. There were few psychologists on staff (mostly social workers) and since I needed a psychologist supervisor I was pretty limited. If I had needed to change supervisors in that setting IDK if it would have been possible logistically. I don't know if that would be the case for you. What do you think?

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[Pragma]

Excellent point. I think this has become the 'default' attitude for many in a culture of victimization ...

Whew, glad at least one person here doesn't think I am a jerk!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Of course. I have no idea what Living is going through. but he came to an internet message board, and is going to get peoples' opinions.

Personally, I think it is a red flag when people start catastrophizing based on a small sample of events without cutting people the slack that they would ask be cut for themselves. I know from my internship supervisors that there is tons of administrative and extra stressors associated with transitioning classes. There are about 100 reasons why a supervisor might come off negatively during the first week of internship.

I am glad that Living is trying to think ahead, but I question extreme statements suggesting that his career might be sabotaged. And I say it from a position of caring. I had those same thoughts at times during my own (very similar sounding) negative supervisory relationship. I felt paranoid, worried, and upset given the lack of power I had in the relationship. But I also found that, when I reframed things and didn't act on my nervous impulses right away, the picture looked a little different. I could find some positives, and I found that she treated me differently in some ways. I still look back on the experience as negative and think she was a total piece of work, but I can find things that I liked about her. if anyone here thinks that you can label a bad supervisor in such a black and white fashion (totally incompetent, unethical, etc) and not find one reason why they got where they were (or maybe why they are the way they are now), you might not be thinking critically enough.

The other drum that gets beat around here is "you don't know what you don't know" and I think anyone in training ought to realize that there is something you can learn from every supervisor, even a crappy one.

There is a tendency for some folks in psychology to go through training experiences as if they know what's up and exactly how it should work. Those are the people that I have witnessed have major conflicts with their supervisors. I can't help but wonder to what extent that has to do with their own attitude. There really is a sense of entitlement that some people have that is very offputting. I am not saying Living is necessarily that way, but that is part of where I always have questions with complaints about supervision.

So call it "blaming the victim" if you want, but if you are training as a psychologist, you d*&^ed well be sure that you know how to look at yourself and what you bring to a supervisory relationship as a supervisee. It is fundamental to your training, and if you are the type that is always preoccupied with how you are being msitreated, you might not realize that you SUCK to supervise.

Whew, glad at least one person here doesn't think I am a jerk!

I don't think you're a jerk, but I do think that you're probably looking at this from a supervisor's perspective or possibly inflating Living's contribution to the situation. What's wrong with taking the supervisee's side? Yes, I do think there are some extreme statements about sabotage that may or may not be true in the long run--that all goes along with not knowing the situation, one way or another. I think you have a good point about the stress of the first weeks of internship. In fact, I think it is more likely that a more pathological bully will not start off overtly abusive--they will groom you first and then strike while the relationship seems good. Perhaps that means that there is a misunderstanding here? We can't know, because we're not in the situation.

When I was in a bullying supervisory relationship, I heard, "You'll learn a LOT from this!" very often. I'm not sure how helpful it is to experience bad supervision as a learning experience--it definitely taught me a lot about how NOT to be a supervisor, for sure. But it was also scarring. I tend to think it's an excuse for the profession to say that. I mean, we don't say to someone with an abusive parent, "Well, you'll learn a lot from this!" do we? Or, we don't say that everyone should have some abuse from their parent at some point just to get a feel for what it's like to be a child? Point being that being a supervisee is not supposed to be training for being a supervisor, so what are you learning, exactly? Children of abusive parents have to spend their whole lives, sometimes, unraveling the mess that was woven for them--if they're lucky, once they resolve it (and only then), they can pass along their knowledge to others.

I say all of this with a tone of questioning and curiosity, not accusation. It's an interesting discussion.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The other drum that gets beat around here is "you don't know what you don't know" and I think anyone in training ought to realize that there is something you can learn from every supervisor, even a crappy one.

This is very true. I have been lucky to have some amazing supervisors...and a couple of not so great ones. One of the best things I learned from the latter group was how NOT to go about dealing with an issue or handling a particular situation. There will be at least once or twice in training when you come across someone you just don't jive with, but sometimes that is the most important part of that experience...learning to be successful despite a less than ideal relationship or circumstance. However, if the situation is malignant to the extent that it involves unethical and/or illegal practice...then enduring probably isn't the best approach.

I also think that it can be helpful to have positive relationships with other professionals at your site. They will help with professional development. Additionally, if the worst case scenario happens and she tries to tear you down or take action against you, they will be able to vouch for your skill as a professional.

This is just good advice for most situations, though particularly important when you run into a tough situation.

 

[FadedC]

I've only had one bad supervisor, and it was actually the person I learned the most from in terms of my experience at the site. To some extent this may mean she wasn't such a bad supervisor after all, but a lot of the reason I learned so much was because of the site where I was working and the great experiences it gave me. But my supervisor and I just did not click, she would always interpret every single thing I did in the absolute most negative way possible, frequently completely mischaracterizing me, my intentions, and my personality. She made the work at an already incredibly stressful facility dramatically more stressful.

But at the end of the day it was just a once a week practicum for a semester. I kept my head down, stayed polite, did my best, and reminded myself that it would be over soon. I agree with T4C, that working with difficult people can be a valuable experience in itself, because that's something you have to learn to deal with in the real world when you start working. I almost would have felt left out if I had never had a bad supervisor experience (though I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it will be the only one).

 

[Pragma]

I don't think you're a jerk, but I do think that you're probably looking at this from a supervisor's perspective or possibly inflating Living's contribution to the situation. What's wrong with taking the supervisee's side?
...
I say all of this with a tone of questioning and curiosity, not accusation. It's an interesting discussion.

I am not necessarily taking the supervisor's side (have done very little clinical supervision myself)...but I am suggesting that as one matures in their clinical training, they become more understanding towards their supervisors (even the bad ones). When I hear stuff like this (below...)...I get some kind of alarm going off in my own mind.

You know the type...
...
asks for your ideas/opinions just so they can put them down, acts jealous of you (yet seems to want your approval), and clearly does not respect you or their clients.
...
You can just feel it.
...
I have only been at this place for five shifts so far,
...
nasty power imbalance relationships that I've been a part of before (both inside and outside of the field), I can already recognize my supervisor and I are in the early stages of this kind of dynamic.
...
The one time I did assert myself and responded, she apologized disingenuously, and deflected personal responsibility from herself.
...
and let us not forget the serious emotional and psychological damage this kind of thing can cause in the long-term.

This just tells me that this guy is either extremely unlucky to have had so many relationships happening like this (that have been severe enough to describe as raping one's soul...within psychology and outside of psychology in the past) - or perhaps there is something going on with HIM.

I don't know at all. But I do know that there is a strong bias against supervisors coming from students that are hypersensitive, defensive, and perhaps not willing to do what it really takes to learn (which might not be what you like or want all the time when it comes to supervision). I also agree with T4C that some people just don't click. Some people don't even want to be supervisors. I have empathy for Living and for the issue of bad supervision being a problem for many folks, but this situation just doesn't add up to me.

I think Living ought to give it more time than 5 shifts before jumping to these extreme conclusions. He also certainly can use his resources to see if intervening might be appropriate. I know of a student who got their DCT involved when they had problems at an internship site. They resolved the problems through mediation. But I can't imagine a DCT who is going to buy into this after 5 shifts, they'd probably say "wait, watch, document, talk to me if this continues for a bit"

 

[wigflip]

When I hear stuff like this (below...)...I get some kind of alarm going off in my own mind.

I realize that this is just one of a number of passages to which Pragma is responding:

"You can just feel it."

But I don't see why the above should be seen as "red-flaggy" or problematic.

 

[Pragma]

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with being in tune with your warning signals. But I think it is dangerous to make such strong assumptions about it.

I have nothing against LoL...I just am advocating a measured approach to a relationship as delicate as the supervisor-supervisee relationship. I also think it's hard to substantiate things like motives for sabotage, jealousy, and even "blaming the victim" when it isn't clear if he has been a victim of anything yet. I know there are lots of bad supervisors out there too. It has just been my experience that these relationships are a two way street, and it is important to pay attention to one's own reactions, behaviors, and yes, possible projections.

I'll back off the topic.

 

[Iwillheal]

I've had a horrible experience with this and actually quit my last program, citing medical reasons instead of dealing with the actual source. My last program was very research oriented so apparently they let in all kinds of freaks with no interpersonal skills as long as they know how to do research. I was new to the lab and to the university, had no "allies," and honestly as my first grad program, had nothing to compare that experience with. My supervisor was abusive, and I mentioned this (in a sort of an indirect way) to program director. The program director, who basically was a research machine in a human body, told me to talk to her. Yet when I talked to my supervisor, I got the reaction I was expecting. I could read her like a book. She was respectful, "validated" my feelings, etc, etc. Then, again as I expected, she increased my workload, was more absent than usual when I needed her, more vague in what she wanted me to do, and essentially kicked up the abuse. The horrible thing about these situations is that you keep thinking you're imagining this, and there is no way of really knowing. She would not do things that were so obvious that you could say, Hah, that' s abuse. She always had a reason for what she did. But I evaluated my situation a couple of times when I was not feeling as emotional about it. Looked at it as logically as possible. I wanted to mention to her what she was doing to me, again, but I really did not want to. So I quit. I think these discussions are important before you attend grad school. When you're in the middle of it, is a bad time to learn about it. Sometimes it's too late.

 

[roubs]

I think Pragma has some good advice, if only because it's kinda difficult to control your supervisors behavior compared to modifying your own. Even in cases where the supervisor is substantially 'to blame', the best bet in a time limited environment is to take actions that can get you through the experience relatively unscathed. This can and should include self-examination in addition to documenting and getting feedback from others. It needn't be viewed as blaming yourself, we all bring our own personalities to the table and we're going to conflict with certain people/types more than others.

And to be clear, I'm talking about when the problem is a more low level interpersonal difference as compared to outright harassment or something ethically shady, in those situations I'd agree someone is a clear victim and direct action should be taken.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

False

"Asserting yourself" doesn't work well in the female supervisor/male subordinate context these days. "Assertive" is easily interpreted as "aggressive" and the word "tolerate" implies a shift in the power dynamic. I bet you even wigflip would agree with me here, at least about the wording. Sternly/stopping/tolerating...

I agree with you about the "only a year" sentiment. Keep your mouth shut and eyes forward. There are plenty of crappy supervisors, male and female alike.

 

[Pragma]

False

Well, if you are a male, then good luck talking to your female bosses that way.

 

[cara susanna]

I think being assertive is a problem even if you're a female with a male supervisor or a female with a female supervisor or a male with a male supervisor-- because it's often perceived as being defensive.

I had a bad supervision situation last year (although not abusive) and it really, really sucked. So I can empathize with a lot of people on this thread.

 

[Pragma]

I think being assertive is a problem even if you're a female with a male supervisor or a female with a female supervisor or a male with a male supervisor-- because it's often perceived as being defensive.

I had a bad supervision situation last year (although not abusive) and it really, really sucked. So I can empathize with a lot of people on this thread.

Oh certainly it is an issue that transcends what sex you are. but I think it is especially salient for male supervisees with female bosses these days just because of historical oppression in the reverse direction.

I can tell you that if I sternly stopped my female boss and told her I would not tolerate any more of her behavior, I'd be getting a formal talking to from several University compliance folks.

(Just to avoid confusion - I am using GoodLuckChuck's proposed wording, which I took issue with earlier in the thread)

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Oh certainly it is an issue that transcends what sex you are. but I think it is especially salient for male supervisees with female bosses these days just because of historical oppression in the reverse direction.

I can tell you that if I sternly stopped my female boss and told her I would not tolerate any more of her behavior, I'd be getting a formal talking to from several University compliance folks.

I get this. I think I (a female) can be more assertive with males than with females, so it makes sense if the supervisee is male. That said, I don't think it's totally okay for me to be assertive much in this profession. I don't think it's okay for anyone, really (male or female), to be assertive in this profession!! That is what the culture is teaching me. You are to be humble, rather passive, and subservient, generally speaking. This is really hard for me, because I'm older, I'm learning to stand my ground, and I'm more comfortable with being assertive now (I never was when I was younger). But it is not seen positively. I can see it already...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I get this. I think I (a female) can be more assertive with males than with females, so it makes sense if the supervisee is male. That said, I don't think it's totally okay for me to be assertive much in this profession. I don't think it's okay for anyone, really (male or female), to be assertive in this profession!! That is what the culture is teaching me. You are to be humble, rather passive, and subservient, generally speaking. This is really hard for me, because I'm older, I'm learning to stand my ground, and I'm more comfortable with being assertive now (I never was when I was younger). But it is not seen positively. I can see it already...

There is generally an expectation of deference, I think, if not quite of subservience; at the grad school level, anyway. This expectation then seems to gradually decline as you make it to internship and then postdoc. From what I remember, I've heard many, many more stories of people getting poor marks on comp exams and thesis/dissertation defenses based on a lack of humility than on an actual lack of knowledge (although you could also make an argument, as I'm sure the committees would, that this relates to the whole "you don't know what you don't know" idea, with many of the students in question attempting to pass of knowledge that they didn't have).

Personally, I tend to be a very laid back, "don't rock the boat" type of individual, which honestly has served me well. At the same time, I agree with prior comments that it is very, very difficult to find a way to at least hold your ground without coming across as either pushy or somehow "ungrateful;" it's definitely something I've had to work on quite a bit for the past few years.

 

[Pragma]

I get this. I think I (a female) can be more assertive with males than with females, so it makes sense if the supervisee is male. That said, I don't think it's totally okay for me to be assertive much in this profession. I don't think it's okay for anyone, really (male or female), to be assertive in this profession!! That is what the culture is teaching me. You are to be humble, rather passive, and subservient, generally speaking. This is really hard for me, because I'm older, I'm learning to stand my ground, and I'm more comfortable with being assertive now (I never was when I was younger). But it is not seen positively. I can see it already...

Yeah, I remember someone describing a student as "appropriately subservient" in one training context. It wasn't even a joke!

I think there is a way to be assertive, but it has to come with a big healthy dose of placating if you want to avoid supervision pitfalls. The age factor is probably a big issue. In my case, I have usually been one of the young ones (I am still in my 20's) so there is a natural deference to my elders (which my momma taught me), which made the dynamic easier. I'd imagine it would be hard to have someone younger than you are telling you how to do therapy.

Thank you for acknowledging the unique issues with male supervisees and female supervisors. I certainly think twice about anything I ever say in these contexts that is not obviously positive and on-topic.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

A good friend of mine recommends this book to people dealing with these issues on internship:

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Winni...&sr=1-1&keywords=dealing+with+office+politics

 

[dydx]

I know I'm bumping this thread (not sure if it's better to do this rather than start my own), but I'm facing this situation right now, kind of. My internship supervisor has beef with my program and how they train and seems to have held that against me since day one. It sounds like she underestimates my ability to do anything because of it, and has left me out from experiencing certain things because of it. Quite frankly I feel as though I'm being treated as a child and not sure how much of this is to do with me vs. her grudge against the program.

I've rolled with the punches so far and have only gotten positive feedback from others that I've interacted with, rarely from her. My biggest concern is getting a reference from her, I really do not have many other options and it feels to me like it would be shady to complete an internship and not use that person as a reference.

I'm contemplating asking straight up about the likelihood of getting a good reference but not too sure how this will go over.

Thoughts/suggestions/advice all welcomed. Thank you

 

[Chalupacabra]

My internship supervisor has beef with my program and how they train and seems to have held that against me since day one

I can't offer much advice beyond making sure that faculty know about these feelings and any explicit statements your supervisor has made criticizing the program. If that has been documented ahead of time and this supervisor criticizes you to faculty (e.g. in some sort of formal evaluation sent to your program) then at least you have some evidence that their opinion may have been biased. And you may be able to save others from having the same experience later down the line, which faculty and students at your program are bound to appreciate.

I had a similar situation but the (potential) supervisor criticized not only my program but my career aspirations and made it very clear they were not interested in taking an intern and were being pressured to do so against their will; luckily this was an initial interview and for obvious reasons I chose to work at a different site.

 

[dydx]

Thank you. I'll make sure that I do this. My supervisor was also not interested in taking an intern/was pressured but due to some complicated circumstances it's where I ended up. I'm glad that in some instances people are able to dodge this. I'll inform faculty about this as I'd like to arrange an additional experience, even if it's short-term, if it means getting a good reference. Maybe I'll do this before I confront my supervisor about it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I know I'm bumping this thread (not sure if it's better to do this rather than start my own), but I'm facing this situation right now, kind of. My internship supervisor has beef with my program and how they train and seems to have held that against me since day one. It sounds like she underestimates my ability to do anything because of it, and has left me out from experiencing certain things because of it. Quite frankly I feel as though I'm being treated as a child and not sure how much of this is to do with me vs. her grudge against the program.

I've rolled with the punches so far and have only gotten positive feedback from others that I've interacted with, rarely from her. My biggest concern is getting a reference from her, I really do not have many other options and it feels to me like it would be shady to complete an internship and not use that person as a reference.

I'm contemplating asking straight up about the likelihood of getting a good reference but not too sure how this will go over.

Thoughts/suggestions/advice all welcomed. Thank you

Just regarding the bolded portion in particular, I wouldn't say that's always the case. It'll depend in part on how many options you have (which you've stated are limited). When I applied for fellowship, as it was still early in the internship year (October/November-ish), I only included one letter of recommendation from internship, as I'd only been on two rotations (one major and one minor) by that point. My other two rec letters were from grad school supervisors.

Not having any internship rec letters would probably raise a few eyebrows. But if you have at least one, I'd imagine you should be ok.

 

[smalltownpsych]

When I read the title of the thread, the first thought that popped into my head was, "Sock 'em in the nose!" That'll stop the bullies.

 

[PsyDr]

They do have all the social power. You don't. Figure out if your beliefs into how training should be are more valuable than getting a degree.

All this right or wrong stuff isn't helping you accept and cope with what is really happening.

In other words: Get over the power dynamic and play the damn game.

It's gonna happen in many walks of life. And I am sure you have been able to do it in some sphere of functioning. Ever acted interested in something you are not while dating? Been nice to a cop who pulled you over? Written a letter of interest for a job or grad school? In all of those situations, appealing to an authority to rectify a perceived injustice will accomplish just about nothing. It will make you people want to punish you.

 

[deleted343839]

I've rolled with the punches so far and have only gotten positive feedback from others that I've interacted with, rarely from her. My biggest concern is getting a reference from her, I really do not have many other options and it feels to me like it would be shady to complete an internship and not use that person as a reference.

I don't know about this. If your internship supervisor is a big name in the particular field you want to go into, then of course it might look suspicious that your reference isn't coming from her. Otherwise, nurture the positive relationships you have with other faculty/professionals at your internship site and give them every reason to give you glowing recommendations. You're well into the internship year (I presume?) but it's never too late to seek out and respond to feedback. Work hard and finish strong so that you can walk out knowing that you did your best. And keep your DCT in the loop.

 

[Dr_lost]

This supervisor will be your opportunity to self-sooth and grow thicker skin (I speak from experience). Two weeks ago I had a fallout with my intern supervisor. Ever since then, I ignore her very existence. Every time she speaks to me, I go to my "happy place" and keep my answers as vague as possible. Everyday I have to go to the hospital for my internship, I tell myself I'm going for my patients and that this she-devil is teaching that not everyone will like me, not everyone in this department will support me, not everyone will help me in my research and not everyone wants to see me succeed in this field.

I already have my thank you letter prepared for her (kill her with kindness). I can't wait to move onto the next hospital within my rotation, thanks to her I am a wiser and stronger person.

 

[Dr_lost]

Ignoring her gets me through the day. It's my method of coping. We hardly ever speak to one another unless it's 100% absolutely necessary.

 

[erg923]

Ignoring her gets me through the day. It's my method of coping. We hardly ever speak to one another unless it's 100% absolutely necessary.

The ignoring of interpersonal conflict is non a trait that lends itself to promotions.

 

[Dr_lost]

The ignoring of interpersonal conflict is non a trait that lends itself to promotions.

You're right, but I did gain something from it. While talking to my therapist (LCSW) about my supervisor (and how she doesn't exits), he pulled some strings and is getting me a new supervisor at another hospital. I asked some doctors I'm very close to for a recommendation letter to sweeten the deal. In a couple of weeks I will be at another hospital. This experience has taught me that, talking about my problems can lead to answers.

 

[erg923]

In a couple of weeks I will be at another hospital. This experience has taught me that, talking about my problems can lead to answers.

Or escape conditioning...right?

 

[Dr_lost]

Or escape conditioning...right?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Or escape conditioning...right?

Sometimes there is a fine line between an avoidance strategy and a strategic retreat.

 

[Dr_lost]

Sometimes there is a fine line between an avoidance strategy and a strategic retreat.

Next time I'm in your town, I'm buying you a beer.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

You know the type...

Crosses boundaries personally and professionally, power-abusing, tries to make your internship experience miserable in the name of 'professional growth', asks for your ideas/opinions just so they can put them down, acts jealous of you (yet seems to want your approval), and clearly does not respect you or their clients. (as a side thought, how do people like this even make it into the field?)

I don't know what the typical supervision experience is like, but I am sure I'm not alone on this one. I have had 4 clinical supervisors: 1 good, 1 excellent, 2 very nasty. It seems like they have all the social power (especially if popular in the office) and can rally others around them on their side pretty quick, disarming/preventing you from getting any ally's should you choose to later raise concern about the supervisory relationship. As another side thought, I've noticed that of the 2 nasty supervisors I had, they were both female and I was their only male intern (or only male in the department, period). I don't think it's purely a matter of sex, but I absolutely believe that (coupled with some other minority identifiers I have) has something to do with it. You can just feel it.

What do you all do in these situations? I have learned my lesson from not doing anything in the past, and this time I am documenting everything. I can't stand spending time keeping a journal of this stuff, but I don't know what else I could do to stop the behavior. Unfortunately, using immediacy (self-disclosure) does not work when your boss lacks empathy.

I'm all about working hard and experiencing the growing pains that come with development within the field, but I do not believe that hazing should be permitted under any circumstances. It's discouraging to see in this field, let alone experience.

"How do you handle the bully supervisor?'

Short answer: minimize the damage, avoid interpersonal escalation of the rift, and quietly plan an exit strategy.

I don't know why anyone would ever get the impression that someone as personality-disordered to deserve a moniker like 'bully supervisor' would ever be maturely responsive to assertive behavior (no matter how masterfully executed) by a subordinate. Like (in the words of Thomas Paine, I think): 'trying to convert an atheist by scripture or administer medicine to the dead.'

 

[Dr.Gentlepants]

I had a supervisor that made me warm up his soup prior to supervision. I notice the abuse occurs mostly amongst old school psychoanalytic types. Sadly, many of the folks that get into this field are wounded people with toxic object relations they have no awareness of. I felt trapped by the situation because I needed a letter of recommendation to move on to the next one year placement. Our field's emphasis on these letters of rec create these perfect environments for supervisory abuse. My means of coping was to spit in the soup : )

 

[MCParent]

I don't know why anyone would ever get the impression that someone as personality-disordered to deserve a moniker like 'bully supervisor' would ever be maturely responsive to assertive behavior (no matter how masterfully executed) by a subordinate. Like (in the words of Thomas Paine, I think): 'trying to convert an atheist by scripture or administer medicine to the dead.'

We don't know they really deserve it, though.

I've met people who should probably not be supervisors. I have also met students who interpret anything other than constant enthusiastic praise as a personal attack and an indication of supervisor incompetence.