How do you think adcoms evaluate you?

[Zong117]

Figured that this would be an interesting exercise for everybody: put yourself in an adcom's shoes and post how you'd evaluate these thousands of applications you receive each year. I figure that whatever we come up with here is going to be pretty similar to what they actually use, kinda like if you think about what a professor will want to test you on, you can tailor your studying to that information. Except we can't do much now in the way of GPA's or MCAT's, but it could be informative and might open some eyes. More than anything, it hopefully will be good for a little bit of discussion.

My procedure:
1. Meet the minimum class/hour requirements? Good, you pass step 1.

2. (GPA X 10) + adjustment for undergrad institution** + (MCAT) = baseline
**I dunno, something up to 4, but more than likely in the +/- 2 range in degrees of tenths.

3. If baseline < some number depending on my school's selectivty, you're out. If baseline > number, congrats you get to fill out another app.

4. In the mean time your personal statement is scored on a scale from one to ten by two members. If their scores differ by more than 2, a third member is brought in to average their score in.

5. Your LOR's and EC's are scored one to ten the same way.

6. When you come interview, you get scored one to ten. Average them.

7. Add up your scores.

Score of 100+ you're accepted.
85-99 waitlisted.
< 85 rejected.
(these scores are kinda arbitrary...would have to see an actual score distribution and make breaks like grades)

Oh, and the waitlisted folk get put in order of score, ties are resolved by the order applications were received.

The weight of each item was off the top of my head...

And glancing back over this, I forgot to take into account how to evaluate secondaries, and I feel like interviews could count for more, but it's off to work I go!

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[hardy]

I doubt that they work with numbers on the personal statement, the ECs, the letters of recommendation and maybe even the interview. The whole process is probably much more subjective.

 

[Law2Doc]

I doubt that they work with numbers on the personal statement, the ECs, the letters of recommendation and maybe even the interview. The whole process is probably much more subjective.

Well, I know of one med school where its interviews are scored out of 20, with points assigned for things like demonstrated maturity (and getting a perfect 20 being very rare) - so there is certainly some "objectiveness" in the interview(s) at some places.
But I too doubt the ECs or LOR are turned into numbers -- How could you equate diffent types of experiences, and say that eg. peace corps is worth 2 points, while research without publication is 1 point, and with is 2 points, and so on -- it can't possibly work that way - way too many variables. You would basically need to evaluate what each EC is worth anew for each candidate - and save nothing by using such formulaic approach.
I also note that in the OPs example, if I understand it correctly, a 3.0/40 and a 4.0/30 would be equivalent, and I doubt they are -- the latter is clearly competitive at a lot of schools, but you see far fewer people with just a 3.0's getting into med school notwithstanding a great performance on the MCAT.

 

[SailCrazy]

That's totally wrong.

The take all of the files, throw them down the stairwell, and select the ones that traveled the furthest...

... So you have to decide if you're going to maximize momentum (big heavy file) or minimize resistance (small file.)

Good luck!

 

[infinite_dreams]

That's totally wrong.

The take all of the files, throw them down the stairwell, and select the ones that traveled the furthest...

... So you have to decide if you're going to maximize momentum (big heavy file) or minimize resistance (small file.)

Good luck!

I like this best

 

[gujuDoc]

Dr. Hinkley once told us that at UMiami SOM they rank students based on the following point system:

50 pts = MCAT + GPA
20 pts = direct patient contact
15 pts = LORs
15 pts = ECs
10 pts = hardships if you had any. This is where they would consider any disadvantaged or socioeconomic considerations and other severe hardships that one's had to overcome.

Based on those numbers, they put you on a ranked list. Based on your position in the ranked list, they give you an interview invite.

Once you've been interviewed at Miami, you are now considered having a 3 out of 4 chance of getting accepted.

So after the interview, they reevaluate your file and determien whether they want to accept or waitlist you, and where you would be on the waitlist if you do get put on waitlist.

That's what he told us at FSU's Medical School Forum and USF's Med school forum this year.

 

[QofQuimica]

That's totally wrong.

The take all of the files, throw them down the stairwell, and select the ones that traveled the furthest...

... So you have to decide if you're going to maximize momentum (big heavy file) or minimize resistance (small file.)

Good luck!

Sigh, and I thought I wouldn't have to study physics any more after the MCAT. I guess I'd have to go with the files at the top of the stairs, though, because getting the ones at the bottom means I'd have to walk back UP the whole flight of stairs carrying them all.

 

[gujuDoc]

Sigh, and I thought I wouldn't have to study physics any more after the MCAT. I guess I'd have to go with the files at the top of the stairs, though, because getting the ones at the bottom means I'd have to walk back UP the whole flight of stairs carrying them all.

 

[gujuDoc]

That's totally wrong.

The take all of the files, throw them down the stairwell, and select the ones that traveled the furthest...

... So you have to decide if you're going to maximize momentum (big heavy file) or minimize resistance (small file.)

Good luck!

I like your sense of humor. This post and the one on the official AMCAS page had me cracking up this morning.

 

[Masamune4567]

You gentlemen need to keep in mind the people who are ON the admissions commitee.

Most are older physicians, established in their practices, banking over $500,000/yr. Then you will get a medical student who has 'jumped through the hoops' like yourself, and maybe a 'community member', who will most likely by a 65 yr old housewife.

These people really don't care about you or your career. The med student is resentful and arrogant, because he is finally into medical school. The physician doesn't care because he is pulling $500,000/yr and the housewife cares even less.

If I was on the admissions comittee, I can honestly say I really wouldn't give a **** who I gave acceptance to. If I liked one of the guys answers I'd give him acceptance.

Real admissions comittees are like this too. That's why you can't worry if you don't get accepted first year you try. Keep trying and getting a 3.5+ GPA and you'll eventually get in.

 

[gujuDoc]

You gentlemen need to keep in mind the people who are ON the admissions commitee.

Most are older physicians, established in their practices, banking over $500,000/yr. Then you will get a medical student who has 'jumped through the hoops' like yourself, and maybe a 'community member', who will most likely by a 65 yr old housewife.

These people really don't care about you or your career. The med student is resentful and arrogant, because he is finally into medical school. The physician doesn't care because he is pulling $500,000/yr and the housewife cares even less.

If I was on the admissions comittee, I can honestly say I really wouldn't give a **** who I gave acceptance to. If I liked one of the guys answers I'd give him acceptance.

Real admissions comittees are like this too. That's why you can't worry if you don't get accepted first year you try. Keep trying and getting a 3.5+ GPA and you'll eventually get in.

That is absolute bull. While you are right about the age groups of some members of the adcom, they DO evaluate every aspect of your application. If they find something that is even really tiny that can set you apart or make them ignore you, they'll do it.

But why don't we get some people like REL or LizzyM to comment on this. Both have served on adcoms of different schools.

 

[Zong117]

I would think that the big, heavy file would carry the advantage so long as it's well rubber-banded or clipped together. Unless they just put all of your pages into a giant box and dump it over the side of the building. The first 200 unique sheets that reach the bottom get in. It's like the NBA lottery...the thicker files have more pages, but the thinner ones get like 5 out of 100,000 sheets.

What's interesting is Guju's post about UMiami...there's no points awarded to the personal statement (which I've been working on for a couple weeks now), unless you have special hardships mentioned in there.

I do think that EC's and LOR's can be converted to numbers in much the same way as they grade the writing section of the MCAT. Or they can play a drinking game-like process where every time "compassion" is mentioned you get one point, "direct patient contact" is 3 points, "delivering baby in elevator" is 5 points and so on.

And sure the GPA and MCAT might not be converted that way in the end, but it could for the initial cut. Maybe they could use a scaled chart that associates a certain GPA with a point value (and MCAT could be handled the same way):

3.0 = 10
3.1 = 11
3.2 = 12
3.3 = 14
3.4 = 16
.....
3.9+ = 25 or so

I've also heard that at some schools once you're into the interview stage, the rest of your packet's totally thrown out the window (in this case figuratively). They assume that everybody at this stage is qualified to do well, and that the personality is the biggest variable with which to differentiate between the candidates. Or so my roommate tells me. Speaking of which, we should print out our AMCAS apps and race them from the roof of this dorm...call me when you get in tonight...

 

[gujuDoc]

I would think that the big, heavy file would carry the advantage so long as it's well rubber-banded or clipped together. Unless they just put all of your pages into a giant box and dump it over the side of the building. The first 200 unique sheets that reach the bottom get in. It's like the NBA lottery...the thicker files have more pages, but the thinner ones get like 5 out of 100,000 sheets.

What's interesting is Guju's post about UMiami...there's no points awarded to the personal statement (which I've been working on for a couple weeks now), unless you have special hardships mentioned in there.

I do think that EC's and LOR's can be converted to numbers in much the same way as they grade the writing section of the MCAT. Or they can play a drinking game-like process where every time "compassion" is mentioned you get one point, "direct patient contact" is 3 points, "delivering baby in elevator" is 5 points and so on.

And sure the GPA and MCAT might not be converted that way in the end, but it could for the initial cut. Maybe they could use a scaled chart that associates a certain GPA with a point value (and MCAT could be handled the same way):

3.0 = 10
3.1 = 11
3.2 = 12
3.3 = 14
3.4 = 16
.....
3.9+ = 25 or so

I've also heard that at some schools once you're into the interview stage, the rest of your packet's totally thrown out the window (in this case figuratively). They assume that everybody at this stage is qualified to do well, and that the personality is the biggest variable with which to differentiate between the candidates. Or so my roommate tells me. Speaking of which, we should print out our AMCAS apps and race them from the roof of this dorm...call me when you get in tonight...

Personal statement is usually something that expands upon one or both of the above:

Experiences that led you to medicine
and/or
Hardships faced

These two things have been covered in the point system I gave you.

 

[gujuDoc]

Oh and when they assign points for these things, it is more of a.......this person has had 0 experience in healthcare but person b has at least a few years in healthcare sort of way.

 

[angietron3000]

That's totally wrong.

The take all of the files, throw them down the stairwell, and select the ones that traveled the furthest...

... So you have to decide if you're going to maximize momentum (big heavy file) or minimize resistance (small file.)

Good luck!

sweet! i'm gonna go get 20 more LORs to maximize momentum. thanks sailcrazy!!

 

[it.]

hmm...would i bang him/her?...........

....yeah, yeah i would...to the accepted pile

 

[Law2Doc]

Most are older physicians, established in their practices, banking over $500,000/yr. Then you will get a medical student who has 'jumped through the hoops' like yourself, and maybe a 'community member', who will most likely by a 65 yr old housewife.

These people really don't care about you or your career. The med student is resentful and arrogant, because he is finally into medical school. The physician doesn't care because he is pulling $500,000/yr and the housewife cares even less.

Most of the older physicians I have seen on interviews were academics -- i.e. various hospital department heads and med school instructors. I doubt many are "banking over $500,000/yr" -- that is private practice (not academic) kind of money.

 

[gujuDoc]

Most of the older physicians I have seen on interviews were academics -- i.e. various hospital department heads and med school instructors. I doubt many are "banking over $500,000/yr" -- that is private practice (not academic) kind of money.

Exactly. While there are some community physicians, most people are affiliated with the medical school in some way or another. And even those community physicians that are on there are generally people highly connected to nearby hospitals or facilities that the medical schools use.

 

[Masamune4567]

Most of the older physicians I have seen on interviews were academics -- i.e. various hospital department heads and med school instructors. I doubt many are "banking over $500,000/yr" -- that is private practice (not academic) kind of money.

My uncle who is a neurosurgeon gets paid $150,000/yr to lecture once a month to 3 yr medical students about neurosurgery. Anyone involved with a medical school, who is a physician as well, is pulling at least $400,000/yr and most likely above $500,000/yr.

Trust me when I tell you this: ADMISSIONS COMMITTEES DON'T GIVE A **** ABOUT YOU. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF APPLICANTS EVERY YEAR WHO WILL BECOME DECENT PHYSICIANS. GETTING INTO MEDICAL SCHOOL IS LIKE PLAYING ROULETTE.

I know I know, brilliant realization eh? Feel free to send me $20 through paypal. Honestly guys, the medical school admissions is a game. Just keep playing it and you'll eventually win.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

My process: (scenario 1.)

1.) collect everyone's papers / files. assemble into a neat stack.

2.) proceed through the regular application process as normal (traditional methods ubiquitously used) to determine who gets interviews.

------------- THE TWIST -------------

3.) during the interview, present the stack of files and ask the interviewee to randomly pull eight of them out. censoring the identification information, have the interviewee comb through the app and review his/her competitors. then ask for an honest evaluation and see what the interviewee has to say about the other applicants. offer the following twist: ask the interviewee who they offer an admission to, acknowledging that the other applicants, and even the interviewee himself/herself, would be declined.

4.) monitor his/her decision-making skills as he/she evaluates the application. anything they say (i.e. "this person has the best EC's and has shown great dedication to volunteering etc.") can be followed up by questions such as, "oh I see, and what strides have you made to show such commitment" and "what do you personally think about this activity" etc.

In the end, I would place the most emphasis on who makes the best interview.

================================

scenario #2

1.) collect everyone's papers / files. assemble into a neat stack.

2.) proceed through the regular application process as normal (traditional methods ubiquitously used) to determine who gets interviews.

------------- THE TWIST -------------

3.) winnow the enormous, tower-like stack of applicant files into a much smaller stack by using only one page (i.e. cover page) of each applicant's record.

4.) then, using a leaf blower, proceed to scatter the pages all across an empty basketball arena or football field. discard any pages that fall face-down and repeat the process for those pages that were lucky enough to land face-up until you reach your target acceptance offers.

In the end, I would place the most emphasis on rolling around laughing like a madman on the floor while singing loudly, "we are family!"

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

Sigh, and I thought I wouldn't have to study physics any more after the MCAT. I guess I'd have to go with the files at the top of the stairs, though, because getting the ones at the bottom means I'd have to walk back UP the whole flight of stairs carrying them all.

You think that your file is going to be one of the lighter ones, Q? I'm sorry, but with a chemistry PhD and a 43, your file is going to crack the stairs when it hits the bottom

 

[Law2Doc]

My uncle who is a neurosurgeon gets paid $150,000/yr to lecture once a month to 3 yr medical students about neurosurgery. Anyone involved with a medical school, who is a physician as well, is pulling at least $400,000/yr and most likely above $500,000/yr.

Again, the people I interviewed with were quite definitely full time hospital employees, not people who lecture once a month. I don't think the private practitioner adcom member is the norm.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Again, the people I interviewed with were quite definitely full time hospital employees, not people who lecture once a month. I don't think the private practitioner adcom member is the norm.

I heard from a faculty member that mostly junior faculty and assistant profs interview potential med students. Big shots and tenured profs tend to residents and fellows. Interviewing is more like a chore, a hoop you have to jump through to become tenured. So most interviewers either are on a power trip or just dont give a damn.

 

[Masamune4567]

. So most interviewers either are on a power trip or just dont give a damn.

My point exactly. This is exactly what I said in my previous post.

Honestly, when I am a physician, do you think I'm going to care about some little **** premed who wants to 'save mankind'? Welcome to reality fellows. Adcoms don't give a **** about you or any other premed and I DON'T BLAME THEM ONE BIT.

Getting into medical school is like playing roulette and in this case, the only way to maximize your odds is to get a great GPA/MCAT/EC/Volunteer, and even still, you might not get in. That's reality.

 

[IAMS]

I thought they picked interviewers with advanced olfactory abilities. You should be able to smell a good med student from a mile away! Or the bad ones, anyway... PeeeeYew!!!

 

[QofQuimica]

You think that your file is going to be one of the lighter ones, Q? I'm sorry, but with a chemistry PhD and a 43, your file is going to crack the stairs when it hits the bottom

Somehow, that mental picture is cracking ME up. I'd definitely not accept any applicant whose file physically damaged my stairs. Well, unless I were looking for an excuse to replace the stairs anyway.

I was thinking earlier that if I were the adcom in sail's scenario, I'd pick the files at the top of the stairwell because I wouldn't want to carry the big heavy ones at the bottom of the stairwell up the whole flight of stairs. Of course, if I'm going to get into the physics of it all, maybe I could just build myself a pulley to raise the heavy ones up the stairs.

 

[gujuDoc]

Somehow, that mental picture is cracking ME up. I'd definitely not accept any applicant whose file physically damaged my stairs. Well, unless I were looking for an excuse to replace the stairs anyway.

I was thinking earlier that if I were the adcom in sail's scenario, I'd pick the files at the top of the stairwell because I wouldn't want to carry the big heavy ones at the bottom of the stairwell up the whole flight of stairs. Of course, if I'm going to get into the physics of it all, maybe I could just build myself a pulley to raise the heavy ones up the stairs.

Too funny. That's all.

 

[Flopotomist]

Hasn't network television taught us anything? I think that all 35,000 applicants need to go to an island like on Survivor, with cameras everywhere, and each week, the television and internet audience votes 1,000 people off until the 17,000 that matriculate are left. Where the final 17,000 actually go is decided by a drawing at a tribal council. Oh - and tuition will be reduced by the amount generated through advertising and marketing tie-ins with Burger King.

 

[secretasianman]

at a top tier school i applied to, the interviewer told me that the adcom members each take home a stack of applications, and select from them an allotted number of people to be interviewed.

 

[Law2Doc]

Honestly, when I am a physician, do you think I'm going to care about some little **** premed who wants to 'save mankind'? Welcome to reality fellows. Adcoms don't give a **** about you or any other premed and I DON'T BLAME THEM ONE BIT.

I suspect from your posts that when you are a physician you will not volunteer to interview med students. That certainly doesn't mean you share the mindset of those that are willing to assist the school in this fashion - in fact, I suspect from your posts that you are about as far from having their shared viewpoint as you could possibly be . Sure, there are probably a few adcom member docs who are just paying their dues and don't care or go beyond the numbers, but I really don't think this is the norm from what I've seen.
The adcom members I have spoken to certainly aren't looking for those who expect to "save mankind" (and if you said this you'd surely be rejected), but they do, in fact, take their duties seriously. And most of the hospital physicians who are enlisted to help in interviewing are not, in fact, seeking tenure, contrary to a prior post -- tenure is only really relevant for fulltime med school professors, not clinicians.
But believe what you want.

 

[Zong117]

at a top tier school i applied to, the interviewer told me that the adcom members each take home a stack of applications, and select from them an allotted number of people to be interviewed.

wow, i can see how randomization gets thrown in there, as whether or not you get an interview is totally up to the preferences of one person. plus, you could end up in the same stack as a bunch of kids who got 40's, while the next guy could end up in a stack with nobody who scored over a 36. darn.

 

[Law2Doc]

wow, i can see how randomization gets thrown in there, as whether or not you get an interview is totally up to the preferences of one person. plus, you could end up in the same stack as a bunch of kids who got 40's, while the next guy could end up in a stack with nobody who scored over a 36. darn.

Maybe they use the "stairs" approach to determine which applications go in whose pile? I suspect that in such cases as described above the admissions staff gives the reviewers pretty specific instructions as to what credentials make the initial cut and what is left up to the reviewers' discretion. Otherwise as you indicated, one guy could be nixing stellar applicants because he got a nonrepresentative stellar pile while another could be excited to finally see one or two adequate (non-stellar) candidates. But when you have a dozen or so people trying to mull through thousands of applications, you really can't expect a whole lot of quality time to be spent (until a series of rough cuts have been made), regardless of the system used.

 

[secretasianman]

Maybe they use the "stairs" approach to determine which applications go in whose pile? I suspect that in such cases as described above the admissions staff gives the reviewers pretty specific instructions as to what credentials make the initial cut and what is left up to the reviewers' discretion. Otherwise as you indicated, one guy could be nixing stellar applicants because he got a nonrepresentative stellar pile while another could be excited to finally see one or two adequate (non-stellar) candidates. But when you have a dozen or so people trying to mull through thousands of applications, you really can't expect a whole lot of quality time to be spent (until a series of rough cuts have been made), regardless of the system used.

oh yeah i remember another one. UCDavis automatically gives you an interview invite if you go beyond a certain number of points based on GPA*constant + MCAT score. the rest of the people they select is probably by a more subjective case by case basis. based on my personal experience i think they tend to select people that show a good amount of interest in caring for the community. research doesn't seem to matter too much. so another point is that different schools do look for certain things, so there is a method to the madness.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay, here are some field notes based on 5+ years of observations of adcom behavior.

Adcoms range in age from mid 20s (the medical student members) to late 70s (the alumni and professor emeritus members). The bulk of the application readers and reviewers are 30s-60s. A few are on the medical school payroll, many earn a living providing clinical care at an affiliated hospital and do this work as "good citizenship", that is something required for the privilege of having a faculty position at the medical school (something required if one is to have admitting privileges at the affiliated school). Many care deeply about getting the best students because it increases the school's prestige, makes for a better situation in the classroom & on the wards, and ultimately makes better doctors. Some of us have had experiences with nutjobs who somehow got into medical school and we see ourselves as the filters to keep that from happening in the future.

We rank each application on a scale from 1-10 with an "average matriculant" from last year pegged between 7 and 8. This is based on a similar ranking of the applicant compared to current students on academics (MCAT & gpa, including performance on key courses that some consider predictors of success in basic sciences), PS, research experience (schools that value community service might evaluate volunteer work rather than research), other ECs, LORs. The reader spends 20-30 minutes with each application. An application undergoes a shorter second review & a third before an invitation to interview is issued. The applicants with the highest scores of get offers to interivew.

The interviewers either give a number (usually from 5-10 on a scale from 1-10) and write a brief narrative justifying the # or they rank applicants on a scale of 5-10 on maturity, motivation for medicine, integrity, etc.

A group of adcom members look at the evaluations of the readers and the interviewers and give each applicant a score from (somewhere from 5-10 on a 10 point scale, again with the current student body considered to by a 7.5). Most of the scores are within a point of each other, an outlier will be discussed to determine if an adcom member picked up something that others missed or there was an error in the scoring. A mean score is computed for each application and the offers of admission are made by score.

 

[gujuDoc]

Okay, here are some field notes based on 5+ years of observations of adcom behavior.

Adcoms range in age from mid 20s (the medical student members) to late 70s (the alumni and professor emeritus members). The bulk of the application readers and reviewers are 30s-60s. A few are on the medical school payroll, many earn a living providing clinical care at an affiliated hospital and do this work as "good citizenship", that is something required for the privilege of having a faculty position at the medical school (something required if one is to have admitting privileges at the affiliated school). Many care deeply about getting the best students because it increases the school's prestige, makes for a better situation in the classroom & on the wards, and ultimately makes better doctors. Some of us have had experiences with nutjobs who somehow got into medical school and we see ourselves as the filters to keep that from happening in the future.

We rank each application on a scale from 1-10 with an "average matriculant" from last year pegged between 7 and 8. This is based on a similar ranking of the applicant compared to current students on academics (MCAT & gpa, including performance on key courses that some consider predictors of success in basic sciences), PS, research experience (schools that value community service might evaluate volunteer work rather than research), other ECs, LORs. The reader spends 20-30 minutes with each application. An application undergoes a shorter second review & a third before an invitation to interview is issued. The applicants with the highest scores of get offers to interivew.

The interviewers either give a number (usually from 5-10 on a scale from 1-10) and write a brief narrative justifying the # or they rank applicants on a scale of 5-10 on maturity, motivation for medicine, integrity, etc.

A group of adcom members look at the evaluations of the readers and the interviewers and give each applicant a score from (somewhere from 5-10 on a 10 point scale, again with the current student body considered to by a 7.5). Most of the scores are within a point of each other, an outlier will be discussed to determine if an adcom member picked up something that others missed or there was an error in the scoring. A mean score is computed for each application and the offers of admission are made by score.

Damn!!!!!! That sounds complicated. Thanks for the insight.

 

[LizzyM]

wow, i can see how randomization gets thrown in there, as whether or not you get an interview is totally up to the preferences of one person. plus, you could end up in the same stack as a bunch of kids who got 40's, while the next guy could end up in a stack with nobody who scored over a 36. darn.

The laws of probability are such that randomly assigning files to readers results in each reader getting a similar cross-section of poor, fair, good, very good, and excellent applicants. A good adcom will have a training session at the start of the year to be sure that every application reader is judging things in about the same way. There may even be dummy files that are evaluated by all the readers to assure inter-rater reliability. If the second reader, who reviews the work of many first readers, thinks that an applicant has not gotten a fair shake, the second reader can request that another first reader be assigned the file.

It seems like a crap shoot but the adcom makes a tremendous effort to make sure that everyone is treated justly.