How exactly did ERAS decide the Number of Signals?

[deleted1168269]

It isn't strictly because of specialty competitiveness.

EM gets 7, meanwhile, FM and Peds get 5?

Neurology gets 3, but pathology gets 5?

Psych, despite having gotten more competitive in the last several years, only gets 5?

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[Esmolol]

Or the Gold vs Silver crap... it's like if you give a program a silver signal it's obvious that there a programs we want more. Why not give 15 signals total instead 5 gold and 10 silver in anesthesia?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I am speculating program directors from each specialty came to their own consensus...?

 

[Esmolol]

I am speculating program directors from each specialty came to their own consensus...?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Theoretically it was programs who decided this. Exactly how that decision was made is unclear. There was no broad discussion in IM. Perhaps in other fields there was more openness.

This is clearly an area in flux, and ERAS wants different fields to try different options to see what might work best. Some fields have kept the number low - which means that most programs will need to review both applicants who signaled and those who did not. Some fields have gone with larger number of signals -- which will likely result in a de facto application cap.

Regarding the complaints about 5 Gold and 10 Silver - had the Gold/Silver not been an option, they might have just picked 5.

 

[deleted1168269]

Theoretically it was programs who decided this. Exactly how that decision was made is unclear. There was no broad discussion in IM. Perhaps in other fields there was more openness.

This is clearly an area in flux, and ERAS wants different fields to try different options to see what might work best. Some fields have kept the number low - which means that most programs will need to review both applicants who signaled and those who did not. Some fields have gone with larger number of signals -- which will likely result in a de facto application cap.

Regarding the complaints about 5 Gold and 10 Silver - had the Gold/Silver not been an option, they might have just picked 5.

In that case, I think I may know why Neurology only gets 3 despite being just as competitive as FM/Peds/Path/etc. Neurology residents tend to have high rates of burn-out and depression. So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there. @Ibn Alnafis MD and @DrStephenStrange can chime in on this.

 

[Student189045]

In that case, I think I may know why Neurology only gets 3 despite being just as competitive as FM/Peds/Path/etc. Neurology residents tend to have high rates of burn-out and depression. So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there. @Ibn Alnafis MD and @DrStephenStrange can chime in on this.

I doubt it's that deep tbh

 

[Captain_Falcon]

In that case, I think I may know why Neurology only gets 3 despite being just as competitive as FM/Peds/Path/etc. Neurology residents tend to have high rates of burn-out and depression. So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there. @Ibn Alnafis MD and @DrStephenStrange can chime in on this.

I doubt it's that deep tbh

I think the above is pretty spot on actually. Most neurology applicants historically match in their top 3 spots (as it is non competitive and most people in most fields can match in their top 3).

 

[Student189045]

I think the above is pretty spot on actually. Most neurology applicants historically match in their top 3 spots (as it is non competitive and most people in most fields can match in their top 3).

I mean most neurology applicants historically matching into their top 3 is a completely different reason than the quoted post saying it has to do with neurologist depression rates

 

[Captain_Falcon]

I mean most neurology applicants historically matching into their top 3 is a completely different reason than the quoted post saying it has to do with neurologist depression rates

The quoted post also says "So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there."

Every PD wants residents that will like their program and want to train there. The neurology depression rate has little direct effect on it, but common sense could see a deductive reasoning of "if my residents hate it here [ie not top X desired program] they are more likley to get burnt out"

 

[deleted1168269]

The quoted post also says "So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there."

Every PD wants residents that will like their program and want to train there. The neurology depression rate has little direct effect on it, but common sense could see a deductive reasoning of "if my residents hate it here [ie not top X desired program] they are more likley to get burnt out"

Yeah this is exactly what I was saying. Neuro residency is tough and the residency class tends to be small. The last thing you want is a resident who’s miserable because they don’t want to be in the program.

 

[Student189045]

The quoted post also says "So I think programs want to make sure that residents are coming to the program because they like it, not because they are a backup option. Limiting applicants to 3 options assures programs that the applicant REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to go there."

Every PD wants residents that will like their program and want to train there. The neurology depression rate has little direct effect on it, but common sense could see a deductive reasoning of "if my residents hate it here [ie not top X desired program] they are more likley to get burnt out"

You could apply that logic to literally any tough specialty and yet the amount of signals is all over the map. 25 for neurosurgery, 18 for ob/gyn, 5 for gen surg...

 

[Captain_Falcon]

You could apply that logic to literally any tough specialty and yet the amount of signals is all over the map. 25 for neurosurgery, 18 for ob/gyn, 5 for gen surg...

Can’t compare those fields to neurology because most neurology applicants will match higher on their list (and all will match essentially unless IMG), whereas those applicants drop down their rank list (meaning top 3 vs top 10 is relatively indistinguishable), and because of those reasons applicants applying to those specialties apply to far more programs (in the case of neurosurgery it is normal to apply to every program, neurology applicants don’t do that)

 

[deleted1168269]

You could apply that logic to literally any tough specialty and yet the amount of signals is all over the map. 25 for neurosurgery, 18 for ob/gyn, 5 for gen surg...

Applicants to places like neurosurg just want to get into ANY program.

 

[deleted1168269]

You could apply that logic to literally any tough specialty and yet the amount of signals is all over the map. 25 for neurosurgery, 18 for ob/gyn, 5 for gen surg...

Applicants to places like neurosurg just want to get into ANY program.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Another issue with this thought is that signals are not evenly distributed to programs. All of the research/data prublished on this show that 50% of the signals go to 25% of the programs. So those programs that get lots of signals will likely only look at applicants who signalled them. But that means the other programs get less signals, and are likely to look at both applications who signaled and not. This difference drops as the number of signals increases.