How important is AOA for matching Anesthesia?

[cantthinkofanamelol]

Hi everyone. I'm currently an M1 at a mid-tier US MD school and I know it's pretty early to be thinking about this but I was just curious as to how important AOA or class rank in general is to matching Anesthesia these days (or in 3-4 years). I understand that it depends on a lot of other factors but I've read that AOA is super important for specialties like Derm, Ortho, Plastics, etc., especially at "prestigious" institutions. Is it the same for Anesthesia?

Thanks for any help!

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[Drwine]

USMLE scores and letters of reference are more important. With step 1 becoming pass/fail the step 2 will fill in.

 

[coffeebythelake]

For a top tier program maybe. Otherwise no.

 

[dabears505]

Not at all. If you are AOA, please pick a better lifestyle specialty.

 

[repititionition]

As someone academically eligible but not selected for AOA (my school required a bunch of community service and general ass kissing of the academic committee members which I wasn’t interested in doing), I don’t think it matters at all.

In addition to grades and scores, I think the next most important features I rarely see discussed on here are 1) school and 2) traction with your department leadership.

I see applicants from my department’s affiliated and highly regarded medical school going to top programs. After working with many of these people as sub-interns, I can tell you that many are punching way above their weight (intelligence and clinical acumen) when they match. The truth is, applicant X from Harvard is gonna go further on that reputation alone. Sad but true.

So since you’re already at your medical school, whatever it is, I think the next most important thing for getting where you’re going is to develop a meaningful relationship with folks in your department so that your letters are great and they will make calls for you when the time comes. This is huge if you want to go to a top program.

Last thing to say is that going to a “top program” is not what most applicants think it is. Finishing my training at a “top program” I can tell you there are definitely programs regarded as middle of the pack that produce clinicians at least as good as we do. If you have sufficient case complexity and graduated autonomy, most of what you get out of an anesthesiology residency is what you put into it. People skate at powerhouse programs and graduate weak. People hustle at average programs and graduate smart and slick. It’s on you.

Good luck, and don’t forget to keep your mind open to other specialties along the way.

 

[Urzuz]

Last thing to say is that going to a “top program” is not what most applicants think it is. Finishing my training at a “top program” I can tell you there are definitely programs regarded as middle of the pack that produce clinicians at least as good as we do.

Though this is true, going to a top tier program will help get you interviews (fellowship or job) that you may not have gotten if you train at a no-name place. If you know where you want to live, train in that area and more likely than not you can get a job in the area. If you don’t know where you want to settle down, training at a top program will help open doors for you across the country.

 

[GassYous]

AOA at my school was basically like looking at an ortho roster

 

[repititionition]

Though this is true, going to a top tier program will help get you interviews (fellowship or job) that you may not have gotten if you train at a no-name place. If you know where you want to live, train in that area and more likely than not you can get a job in the area. If you don’t know where you want to settle down, training at a top program will help open doors for you across the country.

true, of course. I do think that your approach is the right one. train where you want to live, and if you’re flexible and or don’t know where you want to go, consider training at the best brand you can match to, though I think the incremental value of this approach drops off really quickly outside of a few very name brand/prestige programs.

mainly I was just saying for all applicants that all is not lost if you don’t match at a top 5 or whatever program. there are tons of good doctors who came out of no-name programs because they put in the work.

 

[gasdoc77]

Not at all. If you are AOA, please pick a better lifestyle specialty.

To add to this, if u are AOA u are likely an achievement motivated person. High achievers will be left wanting in the field of anesthesia. Your certifications and accolades mean nothing to your employer, and good partnership opportunities are primarily from networking. Adding insult to injury, while you hold yourself to high standards, others are working frantically to lower the bar for other providers who will essentially bill the same as you with trivial exceptions (see point about employers not valuing you).

 

[NicMouse64]

AOA at my school was basically like looking at an ortho roster

Yeah my receding hairline was the reason i didn't get AOA.













and my below average grades may have contributed......

 

[cantthinkofanamelol]

Not at all. If you are AOA, please pick a better lifestyle specialty.

I was under the impression that anesthesia was a good lifestyle specialty, is that not the case?





Also, thank you all for the super helpful advice/responses. I'll keep all of it in mind

 

[nimbus]

I was under the impression that anesthesia was a good lifestyle specialty, is that not the case?





Also, thank you all for the super helpful advice/responses. I'll keep all of it in mind

It depends on the practice. It can be one of the best or one of the worst. Some anesthesiologists never work nights/weekends/holidays. Others will sleep in the hospital 60 nights/year. There’s almost no other specialty that does that. On average I think it is below average.

 

[Blockit]

To add to this, if u are AOA u are likely an achievement motivated person. High achievers will be left wanting in the field of anesthesia. Your certifications and accolades mean nothing to your employer, and good partnership opportunities are primarily from networking. Adding insult to injury, while you hold yourself to high standards, others are working frantically to lower the bar for other providers who will essentially bill the same as you with trivial exceptions (see point about employers not valuing you).

THIS. All day long.

 

[pgg]

I was under the impression that anesthesia was a good lifestyle specialty, is that not the case?

Depends what you want.

It's obviously true that any time surgery happens, anesthesia needs to happen too. If surgery happens at night or on a weekend, one of us has to be there. Newborns are also very inconsiderate when it comes to others' schedules, so OB can be a burden.

But I'd rather spend three nights in the hospital than one day in a clinic talking to outpatients who'll come back to see me in three months after ignoring my recommendations and gaining 10 pounds in the interim.

There are low/no call jobs out there, jobs with no OB coverage. If you hate working in darkness that much, take one of those jobs and earn a little less money. You'll still make a nice living. Nobody is forced to take a job with 24h Saturday shifts at a busy L1 trauma center.

The good anesthesia lifestyle is mainly a product of relatively high wages per hour worked, quantity of time off, and complete freedom when you're off. I've never been called 5 days after one of the patients I cut open presented to the ER with a wound infection, because I don't cut people open. If you need to be the "leader" of the surgical team be a surgeon. If you want to test your endurance on 15-minute clinic appointment treadmill and see 30+ patients a day in a blur of smiling customer service, do primary care. If you just want to work, enjoy instant satisfaction and immediate results from the work you do, get paid well, and then GTFO to live a life outside the hospital, anesthesia can be a great lifestyle specialty.

 

[cantthinkofanamelol]

Depends what you want.

It's obviously true that any time surgery happens, anesthesia needs to happen too. If surgery happens at night or on a weekend, one of us has to be there. Newborns are also very inconsiderate when it comes to others' schedules, so OB can be a burden.

But I'd rather spend three nights in the hospital than one day in a clinic talking to outpatients who'll come back to see me in three months after ignoring my recommendations and gaining 10 pounds in the interim.

There are low/no call jobs out there, jobs with no OB coverage. If you hate working in darkness that much, take one of those jobs and earn a little less money. You'll still make a nice living. Nobody is forced to take a job with 24h Saturday shifts at a busy L1 trauma center.

The good anesthesia lifestyle is mainly a product of relatively high wages per hour worked, quantity of time off, and complete freedom when you're off. I've never been called 5 days after one of the patients I cut open presented to the ER with a wound infection, because I don't cut people open. If you need to be the "leader" of the surgical team be a surgeon. If you want to test your endurance on 15-minute clinic appointment treadmill and see 30+ patients a day in a blur of smiling customer service, do primary care. If you just want to work, enjoy instant satisfaction and immediate results from the work you do, get paid well, and then GTFO to live a life outside the hospital, anesthesia can be a great lifestyle specialty.

This honestly pretty much sounds exactly like what I want. As a first year I obviously don't really know anything about most specialties but I'll do some more research as the months go on and try to shadow some anesthesiologists to see what it's like.

 

[TeslaCoil]

😂AOA is near-totally unimportant unless shooting for top tier programs.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

I do residency application reviews for a top tier program, we see lots of _excellent_ candidates. It's not really about the AOA. It's about what got you to get AOA. How one gets AOA differs from school to school. I have seen applications where someone from a higher ranked school performed better and did more research, but perhaps the USMLE score was lower and didn't make AOA. I have also seen someone from another school where they got a high USMLE score, decent grades and made AOA but have no publications, minimal extracurriculars etc. The former person got an interview but the latter did not.

Does that make sense? It's not about the AOA. It's about what was done to achieve it. In fact, some schools have moved away from having AOA due to what they have stated was racial bias.

 

[ChiDO]

If you get AOA, apply ortho. If not, anesthesia or FM.

Edit. Sorry.. Didn't read anything above. The rogain ortho post is way better.