How is ortho spine research/LORs seen by neurosurgery programs?

[carbonylcarbon]

Hi all, I'm trying to learn more about different specialties I may be interested in, including what makes for a strong application to programs in each field. One of these fields is neurosurgery, but I have heard that this is one of the specialties for which starting specialty-specific research early on in med school can be a significant advantage. In particular, I've read that neurosurgery programs do not look at research outside of their field as favorably as programs in other fields might (?).

I have a fair amount of ortho spine research and a good relationship with a mentor for that work, and am considering continuing that work going forward. I was curious whether spine-related publications with an orthopaedic surgeon as PI would be considered research 'within the specialty' by neurosurgery programs come residency application time, as well as whether letters from orthopaedic spine surgeons would be considered appropriate.

Sorry if the question is inane, or if I am putting the cart before the horse. I have a limited understanding of what the culture is like regarding these things, and hearing news about the increasing competitiveness of the process, I'd like to avoid making misinformed decisions if possible.

Appreciate any thoughts or help!

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[Detailsmatter]

personally I think ortho spine research will be fine. make sure to also include work with neurosurgeons just to cover your bases. As for letters, I think it'd be better to have letters from neurosurgeons if you're applying neurosurgery .

@mmmcdowe might have better insight/thoughts

 

[longhaul3]

The work you've done will stay with you on your CV but if you want to do neurosurgery you should work with neurosurgeons. Your residency letters should all be from neurosurgeons unless you do a PhD and your PI is an orthopedic surgeon.

 

[aldol16]

If you're applying into neurosurgery, you better have the maximum allowed # of neurosurgeon letters. Everybody else does and you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot by doing something different.

Neurosurgery research (read: research with a neurosurgeon) > other specialty research >> no research.

 

[carbonylcarbon]

Thank you for the very helpful comments! I will definitely pursue work with neurosurgeons and make sure to include only letters from them if I commit to applying to neurosurgery programs.

I described my work as 'ortho spine research,' but it covers conditions commonly treated by both orthopaedic surgeons and neurosurgeons. To clarify, these papers and any future spine research with an orthopaedic surgeon would be considered by residency programs as 'out of specialty' and equivalent to research on topics outside of the scope of neurosurgery?

If this research would be seen as a valuable supplement to other work done with neurosurgeons, I might consider continuing it, of course alongside a heavier focus on work with neurosurgeons. But if it would be regarded as unrelated work, this may not be a good use of time.

My impression is that research is about more than the research itself, and serves partly as an indicator of commitment, interest, and experience with physicians in the specific field, so I would understand if non-neurosurgeon-affiliated research was disregarded. I also don't know if by including this work in my applications I would be veering into any area of contention between the specialties with regards to the treatment of spine conditions that it would be safer to avoid..?

Many thanks again for all of the help and insight.

 

[longhaul3]

Thank you for the very helpful comments! I will definitely pursue work with neurosurgeons and make sure to include only letters from them if I commit to applying to neurosurgery programs.

I described my work as 'ortho spine research,' but it covers conditions commonly treated by both orthopaedic surgeons and neurosurgeons. To clarify, these papers and any future spine research with an orthopaedic surgeon would be considered by residency programs as 'out of specialty' and equivalent to research on topics outside of the scope of neurosurgery?

If this research would be seen as a valuable supplement to other work done with neurosurgeons, I might consider continuing it, of course alongside a heavier focus on work with neurosurgeons. But if it would be regarded as unrelated work, this may not be a good use of time.

My impression is that research is about more than the research itself, and serves partly as an indicator of commitment, interest, and experience with physicians in the specific field, so I would understand if non-neurosurgeon-affiliated research was disregarded. I also don't know if by including this work in my applications I would be veering into any area of contention between the specialties with regards to the treatment of spine conditions that it would be safer to avoid..?

Many thanks again for all of the help and insight.

It's not that it's unrelated. All surgical spine conditions are within the scope of neurosurgery. The idea is that if you want to be a neurosurgeon you should work in the field of neurosurgery. If you do a bunch of ortho research, people are going to rightfully question why you want to be a neurosurgeon. Academic neurosurgery is mostly about the brain, so you would have a lot of explaining to do to convince most residency programs you're serious about the field unless you walk the walk so to speak.

If you want to be a spine surgeon it's easier to do ortho.

 

[mmmcdowe]

It isn't about the topic it's about the people. Who do I know are your list of publications that I can call and ask about you if I really care. There is a fair amount of overlap between orthopedic and neurosurgery but the probability of me knowing the orthopedic surgeon personally is still less. Also, while neurosurgeons do treat the same types of spine conditions as orthopedic surgeons. The way we approach the topic and problem is very different. Neurosurgeons have a nerves first conceptualization of the problems, whereas orthopedic surgeons are much more biomechanically oriented. The bottom line is, while the research may be more palatable if you were giving a talk on it. If it doesn't include any neurosurgeons, the assumption will be that You wanted to do ortho. A good friend of mine matched at UCSF with a similar original research focus.so it doesn't have to be a death sentence, but you do need to be proactive in building up your neurosurgery specific CV.

 

[carbonylcarbon]

Thank you all, that makes a lot of sense and is really helpful to have clarified. I really appreciate the insight and honest advice!

 

[Anti-PD1]

I had some ortho spine research, matched neurosurgery. It's all spine surgery. If you can maybe collaborate with your programs neurosurgeons to publish jointly with the ortho surgeons. Very common for neuro and ortho to publish papers together. You get neurosurgeons on your paper and continue what seems like a fruitful relationship with ortho.