How many EM physician groups qualify as 501(c)3?

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InFactotum

EM Doc and CCM Fellow
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I'm starting residency in July and have been thinking hard about how I want to pay off my loans. PSLF is an attractive option, but it seems that based on some searching that it's unlikely I'll work at a 501c3 as an ER doc. This is due to, from my understanding, most ER docs working for independent physician groups versus being employed directly by the hospital. And, at this time I do not see myself going into academics, and MAY even practice outside of this country within a few years of completing residency.

Anyway, my main question is, what are the chances of qualifying for PSLF as a community ER doc?

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I'm starting residency in July and have been thinking hard about how I want to pay off my loans. PSLF is an attractive option, but it seems that based on some searching that it's unlikely I'll work at a 501c3 as an ER doc. This is due to, from my understanding, most ER docs working for independent physician groups versus being employed directly by the hospital. And, at this time I do not see myself going into academics, and MAY even practice outside of this country within a few years of completing residency.

Anyway, my main question is, what are the chances of qualifying for PSLF as a community ER doc?

Not in EM, but I saw this, and I thought I'd respond.

So, PSLF was meant for people who have to pay for a degree in order to work in low paying fields(think teachers, librarians, and social workers). As the way the rules are currently written (ie vaguely), it aims to help physicians who took a pay cut to enter academic medicine or those who are in poor paying jobs through the NHSC/IHS/VA/NIH. Therefore, it seems odd that you want to cash out in private practice, and yet you still want to know if you can qualify for PSLF. It seems unlikely that congress will let physicians reap the full benefit, particularly those who entered higher paying PP jobs.
 
You find it odd I'm looking for a way to "cash out" on my over $300K in loans that I took on to help my patients? I plan to work in an area that serves an underserved population (most of ER of course does serve this population), which IS part of the intention of PSLF. There is nothing in the law that I've seen that will stop specialists from benefiting from PSLF if they work for a 501c3. How about you answer my question rather than making assumptions about my motivation for PSLF. People in academics aren't the only ones that deserve loan forgiveness, so get off your high horse.
 
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You find it odd I'm looking for a way to "cash out" on my over $300K in loans that I took on to help my patients? I plan to work in an area that serves an underserved population (most of ER of course does serve this population), which IS part of the intention of PSLF. There is nothing in the law that I've seen that will stop specialists from benefiting from PSLF if they work for a 501c3. How about you answer my question rather than making assumptions about my motivation for PSLF. People in academics aren't the only ones that deserve loan forgiveness, so get off your high horse.

You are correct: there is nothing in the law that prohibits anyone who works at a 501(c)(3) from qualifying, however, whether this will remain unchanged in the future is doubtful. Most groups do not incorporate as 501(c)(3)s because they are not non-profits.

If you are a social worker who makes 50k a year and has 50k in loans from your MSW, then it will be difficult to pay this off. Conversely, it will be easier for a physician who has 300k in loans to pay them off if they make 300k a year. You are not alone in the 300k club, and unfortunately, it is a problem many of us who are graduating/in medical school are facing: do we take out a crazy amount of debt so we can help people. No one would look at 300k in debt and say "pssh, this is easy." It is going to take sacrifice and planning, but it is totally doable (live like a resident for a few years, make sure your spouse works, do not/delay having kids, etc). Even if you do work for a group that is a non-profit, no one knows if physicians will be able to reap the full forgiveness of PSLF. Yes, EM physicians do provide a great service to society, but so do all physicians (including plastic surgeons who do breast augmentations). PSLF was meant to help people who take low paying jobs to provide vital services to the community, and while EM physicians do provide vital services, whether they are well compensated in PP seems debatable

Let's say you have 325k at 7%, let's assume you are in a 3 year program, and let's assume that income will grow at 2%, so using these numbers (https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/399572/compensation.html), when you enter the work force in the summer of 2018, your starting salary will be $254,000.

Assuming you have no subsidized federal loans (and assuming your 325k is actually, say, 270 plus 55k in interest), so when you enter repayment, you'll be looking at an extra 9.5k in interest. So in 6-months from now, your balance will be 334.5k. Let's assume you will be doing PAYE, and that your salary will be 56k a year (I am rounding up to average the total for each of the three years). After you poverty level deduction and say, 10% of your income to a pre-tax retirement account, you monthly payment will be about $320 a month. Your monthly interest will be about $23,400, so you will have about $19,575 dollars in unpaid interest per year.

When you leave residency, you will have a principal of 334.k with $58,725 in unpaid interest. Now, let's assume you will work in a medium-tax state, say Virginia. Let's say you max out the 18k in your tax-deferred retirement plan, so your monthly take home pay will be 12k a month. If you pay 5k a month (living off 7k a month, or 84k a year post-tax), it will take you 8 years and 9 months ($525k paid, NPV is 445k). If the new REPAYE programs pans out, and interest is capped at no more than 50%, you would be looking at a repayment period of 7 years and 11 months ($475k paid, NPV of 407k). You can obviously pay more than 5k--particularly as your income rises--to pay off your loans faster.

Who knows what will happen to PSLF, especially for physicians, but the above numbers are meant to illustrate that you will not be paying your loans off forever. Yes the total amount paid will be a lot, but so is the amount you borrowed. While it would be great if we all qualified for PSLF, it is prudent to anticipate that the loop-hole will be closed, particularly for PP physicians.
 
I know I'm more than capable of paying the loans off without PSLF. I've highly researched it and the various formats to do it. I'll likely refinance at a lower rate and pay it down in 2-3 years after residency while still "living like a resident" if it's unlikely I'll find a community position that qualifies. I just take objection with you appearing to believe that physicians should not qualify for PSLF, especially ones that work for the underserved. You're making this thread into something it's not. If you want to have an ethical debate on who deserves PSLF and who doesn't then please make your own thread. I also recognize the inherent risk of PSLF given no loans have been forgiven yet, again, not the point of this thread.

If you cannot answer the question of "what percentage of EM physician groups would qualify as 501c3 for PSLF?" then I'd prefer you not comment.
 
i thought refinancing loans at a lower rate doesn't work anymore. am i mistaken?

There are private companies that will allow you to refinance your fed loans, usually at a variable rate
 
The practice does not have to be 501c3. It can be another type of not-for-profit. You can find jobs that are academic-affiliated where academic work is minimal. The other thing to look for is jobs where you are a hospital employee, which is becoming much more common, but obviously this can have drawbacks.

The insight I've been given on PSLF is that yes, it could get changed, but it is highly unlikely that the changes would be retroactive. Thus if you are already enrolled, you'll likely be able to take advantage of it. But, nonetheless, you should have a back-up plan in case something drastic does happen. Aggressively paying down the debt could save you just as much and be done in a shorter amount of time. I'm enrolled currently since I'm a resident and my payments are small anyways. I may change my mind about PSLF in a couple years.
 
IBR payments during residency for 50k/year are like $60/month. For a family of three, with AGI 100k, our collective IBR payment is like 450/month. Not too bad during residency. Will hurt though to pay off all this debt once we graduate.
 
The practice does not have to be 501c3. It can be another type of not-for-profit. You can find jobs that are academic-affiliated where academic work is minimal. The other thing to look for is jobs where you are a hospital employee, which is becoming much more common, but obviously this can have drawbacks.

The insight I've been given on PSLF is that yes, it could get changed, but it is highly unlikely that the changes would be retroactive. Thus if you are already enrolled, you'll likely be able to take advantage of it. But, nonetheless, you should have a back-up plan in case something drastic does happen. Aggressively paying down the debt could save you just as much and be done in a shorter amount of time. I'm enrolled currently since I'm a resident and my payments are small anyways. I may change my mind about PSLF in a couple years.

My plan is to do IBR for all 6 years of residency, then as an attending the next 4 years save up a bunch of cash, toss it in accounts I can liquidate easily if need be. If PSLF goes through, all that cash can go towards a house, if PSLF falls through, ill use that money to pay off the balance on my loans.
 
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