how many years are neurology residencies?

[surag]

are there any 2 years? I know they are 3 years usually.

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[ChildNeuro]

I don't think there are any residencies that are only 2 years after medical school including the internship year, probably because it might not be enough times for you to master a certain area of medicine. Even if you did call q 2 days, it wouldn't equal three years of residency training. Most fellowships are like 1-2 years in most every specialty, but that is AFTER the residency. I think you can moonlight after 2 years of residency, but programs have put modest limits on this for good and obvious reasons. Just curious, why the rush?

 

[surag]

well I'm really interested in banking and investment banking. To help decide if investments in pharmaceuticals, especially in neurologically related medicines are worth the cost.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/27/business/27richer.html?ex=1179288000&en=93517d793c4a9f81&ei=5070

its a link to this sort of work doctors can proceed into. I know it sounds greedy, but for the longest of time I was always interested in neurosurgery. Its a career I would love to do but I'm not sure I can handle the hours. I dont even know how stressful it is, but based on my(very limited) undrestanding its very stressful especially if you want to put family first...I don't think i can do neurology paywise, I know it sounds super greedy, but 10 years of work i think I can do more than 200 thousand as a salary

 

[surag]

dont look at me down beacuse of the money thing, believe me if neurosurgery is not as bad as it looks ill jump to it, give me ideas

 

[neurologist]

well I'm really interested in banking and investment banking. . . . but for the longest of time I was always interested in neurosurgery. Its a career I would love to do but I'm not sure I can handle the hours. I dont even know how stressful it is

Sounds like you don't know much about investment banking either. What do you think the hours and stress levels are like in that field?

 

[surag]

oh no, I certainly know, I've interned at merryl lynch for a summer already. I'm interested in it because the stress of patient health/malpractice lawsuits/and standing up for hours to perform surgeries is not present in business side. I also understand that careers at such levels will undoubtedly include high levels of stress

 

[surag]

ok so interning for a semester wont tell me so much, but please dont eat me alive for those comments, see OP for what Im asking

 

[ChildNeuro]

I actually followed the link to article on a second thought because I could not understand what you are talking about. I thought that the Dr., a Harvard Medical School graduate, who trained in hematology/oncology who was upset that he hadn't won a noble prize was a little bit scary, does he have any idea what the odds of winning a Noble Prize are? There is alot more relevant research out there than what is reward with a Noble Prize, most excellent research doesn't get a Noble prize! He seemed not to want to put in the word of being a research scientist and compete for grants (but he graduate Harvard Medical School and probably got a great residency, good fellowship). Most physician scientist just plainly enjoy doing research and going to scientific meetings. His comments:

“There were doctors at the reunion — very, very smart people,” Dr. Glassman recalled in a recent interview. “They went to the top programs, they remained true to their ethics and really had very pure goals. And then they went to the 20th-year reunion and saw that somebody else who was 10 times less smart was making much more money.”

This would have surprised me big time before medical school, but when in medical school most attendings, residents and students assumes that your motivating factor is becoming financially successful. Even during basic science years we had students who knew they wanted to do specialty x, and were concerned that their salary would drop if insurance companies did y when they were finished training. In the real world most people live in we want to do what we enjoy doing, and not based on a salary. It is funny that this was a Harvard Medical School graduate, Harvard Med School is supposed to produce more altruistic doctors (maybe I am wrong). Seriously, this guy must have jumped onto the reseach bandwagon a little late in his career, anyone interested in physician-scientist pathway would be happy to go to Harvard to participate in their excellent research/mentoring programs and could reasonably be expected to be employed as a physician-scientist. I still don't understand what the big "pay-off" was this guy wanted from research?

 

[surag]

i mean absolutely no offense, but I didn't really follow your point.

You seem to find a problem with his interest in medicine/research and his views of making money as a doctor. But then you dont really clarify the problem/point involved in your statement... His comments on nobel prize weren't necessarily cast in gold. I'm sure it was his way of explaining how naive he was and how he finally understood the difficulties involved in research and the fact that he wasn't as brilliant as he thought to be.

His comments on others having greater ethics than him were merely his way of making the point that practicing doctors care for patients and treat them more than say an investment banker/MD. Perhaps he stretched the story a little bit but thats not even the point of the article.

The main purpose of the article wasn't to express a viewpoint that somehow medical research is unfulfilling in some way. Rather, it was to show that those interested in making more money can choose to do so by going into investment and financial markets and make greater amounts of money.

regardless I dont want to debate this article. What i do believe is that there are career opportunities in these areas and any information regarding it or how to go about this career interest. I'm mostly curious right now about how things worth.

 

[Nerdoscience]

Bottom line: Anyone going into any field in medicine for money and/or a passing interest is making a mistake. You need to be willing to devote your career to patient care and/or research. If not, then don't go to med school. The pay to work ratio is NOT worth it.

Oh, and read the FAQs. There are no 2 year neuro residencies. They are 4 or 1+3.

 

[surag]

now thats not true, well, ok, from what I've heard neurosurgeons who practice and prefer a 'less strenuous' lifestyle, if thats even an appropriate phrase make easily 500,000, which is considered on the low end, after 5 years on the job....thats definately a great salary if you're working 9-5 and others who work longer hours, take on more patients/surgeries and more on call days make even more money...

 

[llogg]

You clearly don't know a whole lot about this issue. You should do a great deal more research before you decide to go to medical school. Being overly concerned with salary and trying to practice medicine is a one-way ticket to absolute frustration and burnout.

 

[ariwax]

I agree. Stay out of neurology. In fact, stay out of medicine. When I was applying to med school, every resident or attending I talked to said, "if there's anything you can see yourself doing aside from medicine, and I mean ANYTHING, do that thing."

Medicine is not a job. It's a lifestyle. Obviously money factors into it, but $200,000 will allow you to live comfortably no matter who you are. Reimbursement rates not what they once were? You don't want to toss and turn in the call room, thinking about the patient up on the 10th floor who maybe you should have transferred to the ICU after all? Your main motivation in choosing a specialty is whether you can ultimately get that flat-screen TV for your Playstation? Please, for the sake of your patients and of your colleagues, not to mention your own happiness, stay out of this field of human endeavor. There are too many people like that in here already - like the people in that Times article. Do i-banking, make a lot of money, then come to us for your hypertension, dyslipidemia, gout and TIA's.

However, if your primary motivation is to take care of people who need your help; and you find the idea of modern science applied to ameliorate human misery deeply satisfying; you think neurology is cool and genuinely fascinating, and if pulling 2-300k doesn't seem like an enormous imposition on your sense of entitlement, then maybe it is for you. Sorry for the harsh words, but you need to hear them, particularly at this point in your life.

 

[surag]

lol

thanks for the candid words. I guess I came across wrong. I've never looked at another career in my life. Honestly, I couldnt tell you if medicine is for me. But im trying to find out as much as possible regarding possible careers in medicine so i can be prepared as to what I really want to do.

Would I enjoy helping people out? absolutely. Do I love studying the brain? Absolutely, my major is neuroscience and i've been reading up on brain related things for a long time. I've done research, and I dont like it. I can't imagine myself doing this for the rest of my life, sitting in a lab or writing up grants for proposals. Its not my style. I would however love to do hands on work with people.

Yes I know that I sound like i care about money only. But i ask about these things because I know nothing about NS or neurology in these areas. I ask about them because I've already made my decision that doing the work entailed in this field would be something i'd enjoy for the rest of my life. I dont think its a bad idea to ask about salaries and money and other inconsequential things when you've decided that regardless of how those turn out you'd still love the field. Right now I'm really interested in neurosurgery. but im also looking into neurlogy. the reason why I start so early(haven't even started medical school) is that I cannot honestly see myself doing anything else in medicine other than neuro related work. its absolutely fascinating to me.

And while I do ask about salaries and lifestyles, I think for me the most important thing will be families. I cant live for work. But I will work to live. On the other hand, I want to do something I would love. surgery, and neuro related fields are areas I would love to work in for the rest of my life even if they are stressful and force you to revolve your life around them.

So please, while I greatly appreciate your candor, lets leave out the judgments in character in online forums when you haven't even met me.

I still appreciate all of your help!

 

[deleted77919]

I cant live for work. But I will work to live. On the other hand, I want to do something I would love. surgery, and neuro related fields are areas I would love to work in for the rest of my life even if they are stressful and force you to revolve your life around them.

The NS residents and attendings I know work. A lot. In fact, that's all they do. One attending explained that it's possible to be married and have a family, but it is important that your spouse and children don't need your physical presence. Keep that in mind. Further, as a resident you basically have no input into how much you should be working, it is only after finishing your 7 year residency that you can try and find a practice setting more to your liking.

Admittedly there are a lot of neurosurgeons I haven't met so it's possible there are some who don't work very many hours, but none of those people are residents.

Edit: Another worthwhile anecdote. One of my classmates is the son of a neurosurgeon. He said it took him 22 years to finally forgive his dad for not attending any of his sports functions, being home for dinner, or basically seeing him at all except for 1 week of family vacation per year. He said he finally has come to realize that his dad's job was more important than helping to raise him so he has forgiven his dad. Just an anecdote, but I think more typical than not in the field of NS.

Edit 2: Further keep in mind the high fixed costs associated with a neurosurgical practice. According to a recent e-mail I got from MSSNY, if a proposed malpractice insurance rate increase goes through the average neurosurgeon in Long Island will have to pay $317,000/yr for malpractice coverage. You have to do a lot of work just to cover your malpractice premium and other fixed costs and it's only after all that work is done that you finally get some money to take home.

 

[latinfridley]

lol

thanks for the candid words. I guess I came across wrong. I've never looked at another career in my life. Honestly, I couldnt tell you if medicine is for me. But im trying to find out as much as possible regarding possible careers in medicine so i can be prepared as to what I really want to do.

Would I enjoy helping people out? absolutely. Do I love studying the brain? Absolutely, my major is neuroscience and i've been reading up on brain related things for a long time. I've done research, and I dont like it. I can't imagine myself doing this for the rest of my life, sitting in a lab or writing up grants for proposals. Its not my style. I would however love to do hands on work with people.

Yes I know that I sound like i care about money only. But i ask about these things because I know nothing about NS or neurology in these areas. I ask about them because I've already made my decision that doing the work entailed in this field would be something i'd enjoy for the rest of my life. I dont think its a bad idea to ask about salaries and money and other inconsequential things when you've decided that regardless of how those turn out you'd still love the field. Right now I'm really interested in neurosurgery. but im also looking into neurlogy. the reason why I start so early(haven't even started medical school) is that I cannot honestly see myself doing anything else in medicine other than neuro related work. its absolutely fascinating to me.

And while I do ask about salaries and lifestyles, I think for me the most important thing will be families. I cant live for work. But I will work to live. On the other hand, I want to do something I would love. surgery, and neuro related fields are areas I would love to work in for the rest of my life even if they are stressful and force you to revolve your life around them.

So please, while I greatly appreciate your candor, lets leave out the judgments in character in online forums when you haven't even met me.

I still appreciate all of your help!

You may think you like surgery, neurology, but believe me, until you do a rotation in these respective fields you don't have a clue. I know you think you understand what these professions entail, but you don't. NS (and surg) training is a bi'atch and it takes many years. You earn about 30-45 thousand a year during that time (while your student loans are accruing interest), and when you get out life isn't that much easier (especially NS). If you are interested in the business side of medicine, I'd recommend going for an MBA (or MD/MBA). If you're interested in pharmaceutical related stuff, go the research route. If you want a career with fantastic earning potential but not a lot of hassle, look away from medicine.

 

[llogg]

lol

thanks for the candid words. I guess I came across wrong. I've never looked at another career in my life. Honestly, I couldnt tell you if medicine is for me. But im trying to find out as much as possible regarding possible careers in medicine so i can be prepared as to what I really want to do.

If you haven't looked at other careers you're doing yourself a great disservice and making huge decisions in an immature way.

Would I enjoy helping people out? absolutely. Do I love studying the brain? Absolutely, my major is neuroscience and i've been reading up on brain related things for a long time. I've done research, and I dont like it. I can't imagine myself doing this for the rest of my life, sitting in a lab or writing up grants for proposals. Its not my style. I would however love to do hands on work with people.

How do you know you'd love to do hands on work with people? Have you worked/volunteered at a nursing home or hospital in a position where you got to do that? If not, make sure you do before making this kind of decision. You may find that you dislike it as much as you do bench research.

Yes I know that I sound like i care about money only. But i ask about these things because I know nothing about NS or neurology in these areas. I ask about them because I've already made my decision that doing the work entailed in this field would be something i'd enjoy for the rest of my life. I dont think its a bad idea to ask about salaries and money and other inconsequential things when you've decided that regardless of how those turn out you'd still love the field. Right now I'm really interested in neurosurgery. but im also looking into neurlogy. the reason why I start so early(haven't even started medical school) is that I cannot honestly see myself doing anything else in medicine other than neuro related work. its absolutely fascinating to me.

And while I do ask about salaries and lifestyles, I think for me the most important thing will be families. I cant live for work. But I will work to live. On the other hand, I want to do something I would love. surgery, and neuro related fields are areas I would love to work in for the rest of my life even if they are stressful and force you to revolve your life around them.

As others have mentioned, give up the idea of not living to work if you want to do neurosurgery. No field of medicine is a walk in the park, but you might want to set your sights on something like radiology or pathology, where the hours are more set. Consider fellowship training in neuropath or neurorads if you want to focus on neuro stuff.